Cyclocross - More braking power?

So, another 120ks off road on my Tricross Sport, and my hands are pretty sore. That, and some of the really steep downhills I simply couldn't stop using the cross levers. I've got the current 2009 cantilevers.

Question: Is there anything I can do to get more braking power with less finger strain? Longer cross levers?

The obvious solution is disk brakes, I guess. I actually have a front disk on "my" 2008 tricross, but it's now the gf's (and she likes the disk brake!) so I can't necessarily just borrow it every time I want to go off road. Especially if she's coming too. And of course the setup is all different - saddle height and location, stem etc.

Thing is, I love riding it on flat off road, or even fairly technical singletrack - it just sucks for steep descents. Sometimes I resort to using the drop bars for the extra leverage, but then the weight distribution is worse and I'm always on the edge of going over the bars.

Any tips?

Steve

I was disappointed in the braking power on my Kona Jake with its Avid Shorty 4's. Changing out the brake pads helped a little, but it still wasn't great. I used to go into the LBS and share ideas I'd read on the internet with them, and they'd respond by looking at me like I was an idiot. Finally, I went back to the internet and found the parts I needed and did it myself. Here's what I got:



It's a Tektro Z-Link wire, size S. I had tried talking to the LBS guys about a shorter link wire, but they kept telling me that the brakes were designed for a single length and I should use that. Nevermind that the actual manual from Avid says it comes with two lengths and that if you aren't happy with the longer one, you should use the shorter one.

The link wire that I had with my Avid's originally was size A (73 mm), and switching to size S (63 mm) made a huge difference in braking power. I also switched from black Kool Stop mountain pads to Kool Stop tectonics, but I'm not sure how much difference there was from that.

With this configuration and the brakes pulled in so tight I have trouble unhooking the quick release, I get pretty good braking power. I don't know if it would be as much as you would want for downhill offroad, but it's a lot better than it was.

I just switched the brakes on my son's 94 Giant Squadron from Shimanos with post brake pads to modern Avid Shorty 4s. The Shorty 4s came with 3 different length straddle links - I put on the middle length. He said the brakes were a lot more powerful than the old Shimanos. However this may have just been due to the easier adjustment.

Tektro 720's are a cheap upgrade.

i have tektro onyx's and ive had no complaints with them, good stopping power down hill and no brake squeal. they're not the nicest but they're cheap and worth the money in my opinion.

Beside the upgrades suggested, you could try high end pads like Kool Stops. And - a fairly radical modification - consider switching the bars to Salsa Bell Laps (flared offroad drop bars) and placing them a bit higher, so that you ride permanently in the drops but balance correctly there. Read about this before you decide that I'm mad...

Kind of expensive, but at least another option...

http://www.paulcomp.com/brakebooster.html

Thanks for the tips everyone - Andy K's shorter link wire solution looks like a cheap place to start. That piece looks a lot like what's already on the bike, but I'll have to check. Also, it already has Koolstop pads, but not sure which model.

I guess also maybe rotating the handlebar up to make the drops more useful is another solution. I don't want to do anything too drastic because I mostly use the bike onroad...

Steve

A shorter link cable will give you more power, less modulation and less pad clearance. Rather than using those fixed length link wires, get one that is a brake line and straddle. This way you can fine tune the length.

>get one that is a brake line and straddle

Can you elaborate on that? Is the difference how the cable attaches to the Y joint?

(more power, less modulation and less pad clearance might be a fair trade off for me at this point. my 08 tricross originally came with vbrakes that were too far to that extreme - pad clearance was a real pain in the arse, even on road. maybe there's a happy medium)

Steve

like this

I wasn't satisfied with my Avid Shortys and Shimano STI shifters either. I had to set them up very close to the rim in order to get any kind of reasonable braking for the road. Cantis can be quite powerful with the right levers, but brifters aren't the right ones. I remember coming down a lo-o-o-o-ng steep road with switchbacks in the rain and having to use my cross levers. My hands were getting sore from braking.

I recently bought some Tektro CR 720 cantis and they ROCK. I can now have A LOT of mud clearance and good power. They are very easy to set up and tolerant of sloppy straddle wire lengths, etc. No longer do my levers bottom out and no longer do I find myself wanting more power.

Highly recommended.

since you guys are on the topic of stopping power and cantis.. i have a tektro 720 in the front and a oryx in the back. I want to change the pads to koolstops. I've heard the salmons are awesome regardless of wet/dry conditions but probably wear quicker. Couple of questions:

Anyone use the dual compound ones?
Anyone use salmon in the front, dual compound in the back?
What is the advantage/disadvantage of using thinline ones over the mtn linear ones?

thanks and sorry for the semi-hi-jacking of this thread.

I hated my avids, so I upgraded the front to a tekro cr720. I used an older style cable hanger (like the one pictured above) and it self centers fine. Its also much easier to adjust the mechanical advantage (just move the cable hanger up and down), which is really nice. Overall way worth what I paid for them, as my front end stops on a dime now with minimal shudder and the avid on the back is plenty strong enough for that. If anything, ditch the link wire and go back to the tried and true system with a normal style cable hanger.

I was disappointed in the braking power on my Kona Jake with it's Avid Shorty 4's. Changing out the brake pads helped a little, but it still wasn't great. I used to go into the LBS and share ideas I'd read on the internet with them, and they'd respond by looking at me like I was an idiot. Finally, I went back to the internet and found the parts I needed and did it myself. Here's what I got:



It's a Tektro Z-Link wire, size S. I had tried talking to the LBS guys about a shorter link wire, but they kept telling me that the brakes were designed for a single length and I should use that. Nevermind that the actual manual from Avid says it comes with two lengths and that if you aren't happy with the longer one, you should use the shorter one.

The link wire that I had with my Avid's originally was size A (73 mm), and switching to size S (63 mm) made a huge difference in braking power. I also switch from black Kool Stop mountain pads to Kool Stop tectonics, but I'm not sure how much difference there was from that.

With this configuration and the brakes pulled in so tight I have trouble unhooking the quick release, I get pretty good braking power. I don't know if it would be as much as you would want for downhill offroad, but it's a lot better than it was.

If you pull the shoes on their rods away from the cantilever arms first... before you tighten them down...



...you will get OODLES of stopping leverage. :)


I recently installed some new Shimano Altus cantilevers on my 20 year old Fisher MTB with the shoes right next to the arms and they hardly had any stopping leverage. I discovered this was because the arms were already past the point of their best mechanical advantage in relationship to the cable harness. Pulling the brake levers to stop only put the arms closer to the rim diminishing the mechanical advantage even more.

...but increasing the shoe's distance from the arms made a WORLD of difference. Now I can lock the wheels anytime... even with little ittybitty two finger levers. :)


Greg

If you pull the shoes on their rods away from the cantilever arms first... before you tighten them down...



...you will get OODLES of stopping leverage. :)


I recently installed some new Shimano Altus cantilevers on my 20 year old Fisher MTB with the shoes right next to the arms and they hardly had any stopping leverage. I discovered this was because the arms were already past the point of their best mechanical advantage in relationship to the cable harness. Pulling the brake levers to stop only put the arms closer to the rim diminishing the mechanical advantage even more.

...but increasing the shoe's distance from the arms made a WORLD of difference. Now I can lock the wheels anytime... even with little ittybitty two finger levers. :)


Greg

What's most important in that picture, I believe, is that the arms are parallel to the fork blades. This is the point of greatest mech. advantage referenced by opp. No matter which cantis i'm using (CR720's, old shimanos, new shimanos, shortys, cane creeks), I find that setting them up so that rim contact is made when the arm is parallel to the fork blade yields the most pleasing performance.

Anyone use the dual compound ones?
Anyone use salmon in the front, dual compound in the back?

I use salmon in the front, and inexpensive black (not kool stop) pads in the back. I have enough stopping power in all conditions. My salmon pads have been good for daily use for 2 years, and they still have another year's worth of use left in 'em.

Let me recommend something you can do if you want instead of dual compound levers - just mix and match - buy a pair of good cheap black pads and a pair of salmon pads, and use red on the one side, black on the other side, on each brake. The only issue is if you don't like the look.

I have had good luck with the dual compounds. No complaints here.

If you pull the shoes on their rods away from the cantilever arms first... before you tighten them down...



...you will get OODLES of stopping leverage. :)

That makes sense, but as far as I know you don't really have that kind of option with the Avid Shortys, apart from proper selection of which washers from the linear pull brake shoes to put where, which doesn't yield nearly as much adjustment as your picture shows. Is there some trick here I don't know about?

This is an exceptionally good thread! If there's some sort of sticky with a list of best ever threads then it has my vote.

Hmm, very very interesting. Might be time I had a chat with the LBS. Even after a service I find I can barely get a skid going on the back brake. Bleh.

Plus, today I rode my 2008 tricross, set up for my gf but with disk brake - damn, that's the stopping power I want. Accidentally did a stoppy, with a basket on the back! I swear that ought to be possible with cantis though.

That makes sense, but as far as I know you don't really have that kind of option with the Avid Shortys, apart from proper selection of which washers from the linear pull brake shoes to put where, which doesn't yield nearly as much adjustment as your picture shows. Is there some trick here I don't know about?

Are these your Avids?



Looks like you could simply swap the outside thicker brake shoe washer for the inside thinner washer. That would move the shoe out farther from the arm. It doesn't take much to improve the mechanical advantage. The fixed geometry of your cable harness is just like the Shimano, and it appears to be designed to operate optimally in a very narrow range of arm motion. I was suprized at how moving the arms outward just a little really jacked up the leverage. Give that a try and let us know how it works out. Those brakes look strong enough to crush your rims!


Greg

Are these your Avids?

No, mine are the older design, before they put the extra bit of metal between the pivot and the end of the arm, but for purposes of this discussion, they work the same.


Looks like you could simply swap the outside thicker brake shoe washer for the inside thinner washer. That would move the shoe out farther from the arm.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "proper selection of which washers from the linear pull brake shoes to put where." That was one of the early things I tried. It didn't make nearly as much difference as switching to a shorter link wire.

does anyone have any comments on the TRP Euro X canti brakes? I was thinking about getting them and someone else told me I should just get the tektro cr720's. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Here is a good write up on the Euro X
http://www.bikeman.com/content/view/1342/42

Yeah, that's what I meant by "proper selection of which washers from the linear pull brake shoes to put where." That was one of the early things I tried. It didn't make nearly as much difference as switching to a shorter link wire.

Cool. I'm glad you came up with a way to resolve the issue. :)


Greg

does anyone have any comments on the TRP Euro X canti brakes? I was thinking about getting them and someone else told me I should just get the tektro cr720's. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

I recently installed my Tektro cr720s. They are pretty awesome for the money and they don't squeel.
However, I'm probably going to put these pads in the rear on my Tektro Oryx cantis and get some koolstops for the front.

I recently installed my Tektro cr720s. They are pretty awesome for the money and they don't squeel.
However, I'm probably going to put these pads in the rear on my Tektro Oryx cantis and get some koolstops for the front.

I think this brings up a question I've had. I'm guessing you are putting the Oryx on the back because you're worried that the cr720s are too wide for jumping on the bike. I've been looking at a bunch of brake options for another bike I'm planning, but I'd like to know how wide each brake is. I can't seem to find a width measurement on any of them. Specifically, I'm wondering about the CR720's, the TRP EuroX, and the Kore Race.

Is this even an issue in practice?

Thanks for the set up tip here. I just changed the pads on my Tektro Oryx. They used to have the thick washer on the outside and I moved it to the wheel side. Pretty easy change and a big change in stopping power. I was very unsatisfied with the stopping power before and they are more than adequate now. Any the best part is it cost $0.


If you pull the shoes on their rods away from the cantilever arms first... before you tighten them down...



...you will get OODLES of stopping leverage. :)


I recently installed some new Shimano Altus cantilevers on my 20 year old Fisher MTB with the shoes right next to the arms and they hardly had any stopping leverage. I discovered this was because the arms were already past the point of their best mechanical advantage in relationship to the cable harness. Pulling the brake levers to stop only put the arms closer to the rim diminishing the mechanical advantage even more.

...but increasing the shoe's distance from the arms made a WORLD of difference. Now I can lock the wheels anytime... even with little ittybitty two finger levers. :)


Greg

I think this brings up a question I've had. I'm guessing you are putting the Oryx on the back because you're worried that the cr720s are too wide for jumping on the bike. I've been looking at a bunch of brake options for another bike I'm planning, but I'd like to know how wide each brake is. I can't seem to find a width measurement on any of them. Specifically, I'm wondering about the CR720's, the TRP EuroX, and the Kore Race.

Is this even an issue in practice?

yup, oryx in the back for that very reason. I had the 720 in the back and would bump into it on occasion. I'll measure later and post.

I am considering a different approach to better brakes. Not that thrilled with the Mini-V's on my Focus, and I will be building up an Ebay frame (looking at the chinese 580 $ carbon frame and fork setup ?). Planning on using 9 speed barend shifters with Tektro 520 aero V-brake roadlevers and regular Mtb V-brakes. The bike is not for racing but for long rides on forestroads and a little light singletrackriding.

Are these your Avids?



Looks like you could simply swap the outside thicker brake shoe washer for the inside thinner washer. That would move the shoe out farther from the arm. It doesn't take much to improve the mechanical advantage. The fixed geometry of your cable harness is just like the Shimano, and it appears to be designed to operate optimally in a very narrow range of arm motion. I was suprized at how moving the arms outward just a little really jacked up the leverage. Give that a try and let us know how it works out. Those brakes look strong enough to crush your rims!


Greg

Great observation, which is why I use the old school wires. You can fine tune the length.

Great observation, which is why I use the old school wires. You can fine tune the length.

Yeah, that's what I did at first when the new brakes didn't work. Put the old wires and yokes back on. Shortening the crosswire has the effect of pulling the arms at a shallower more direct angle to horizontal which overcomes the arms being closer to the rim. Then I got the idea that if the arms were farther away from the rim, that would also make the pulling angle more shallow and direct, and the longer preset wire harness should work...

...and they do. The brakes have two finger rimcrushing leverage now. :)

I made the braking touch even lighter by setting the arm return springs to their lowest setting and installing Shimano Deore braided stainless steel brake cables and inner sleeved teflon coated housing.

Man, it's like having POWER brakes.

I live on a really steep hill... so every ride starts with a buttpuckering quarter mile winding downhill run with a terminal velocity of 29.5 mph and a stop sign at the bottom for the heavily trafficked main road... so the brakes really need to work... and fast!

Oh, and there's another factor to throw into the mix...
Some aftermarket brake shoes appear to be thinner than the stock ones, which also has the effect of putting the arms closer to the rim and reducing their mechanical advantage.

The bottom line is that cantilevers are designed to work optimally within a very small arc of rotation. And if you find that sweet spot... they'll clamp onto your rims like crazy. :)


Greg

The bottom line is that cantilevers are designed to work optimally within a very small arc of rotation. And if you find that sweet spot... they'll clamp onto your rims like crazy. :)


Greg

Wow, this would explain why the cantilevers on my SS MTB worked VERY well (lockup city) until I changed pads. I tried to get the canti arms closer to the rim with the new pads because I thought the pad being on a shorter arm/post would make it stronger and less flexy. My braking has been crap ever since. I will try adjusting them as explained in this thread.

So, another 120ks off road on my Tricross Sport, and my hands are pretty sore. That, and some of the really steep downhills I simply couldn't stop using the cross levers. I've got the current 2009 cantilevers.

This thread has been great, but... having looked at the spec (spot the pun) of the 2009 Tricross Sport, the brakes are linear pull cantis. Doesn't this mean that the OP's bike is NOT canti braked in the old-school sense, but a V brake bike? But that the V's used have been redesigned to lessen mechanical advantage for compatibility with road levers?

(I have read that some Tricross's have been supplied with Tektro 720s - old school cantis - to reduce the fork judder.)

OP here. Ok so the Spec specs (did I get it?) say "Tektro high profile linear spring cantilever, alloy, cartridge pads". Not sure that's exactly what I have - sometimes the Australian distributor swaps out parts.

What's on there atm looks approximately like this: http://tektro.com/02products/11rb.php

or this: http://tektro.com/02products/11qb.php

Although it doesn't say "Tektro" on it.

As I think I said, on the 2008, they were originally v-brakes, but I had them replaced with cantis because of rim clearance issues.

Steve

Ok, had a closer look, scraping off a few layers of mud. The brakes say CR720 - so I'll take a stab in the dark and say these are the "Tektro 720s" mentioned several times. The rear cable looks exactly like what Andy K mentioned originally - "Tektro Z-Link wire", not sure what size though. The front cable is different though, more like the one nitropowered posted, but there are screws holding the short (link?) cable in place.

Atm, there is a lot of pad clearance (>1cm each side), and it's very easy to unhook the brake cable. Based on some comments above, I'll try tweaking that.

Sorry to be so spammy. Quick question: the back of the right brake says "L" and the back of the left one says "R". The pads (Kool stop) are the opposite. Is it possible the LBS put them on backwards? They look ok. Perhaps someone with Tektro 720s could check? (By "right brake" I mean the front brake on the right hand side facing forwards, as if you were on the bike.)

Argh, sorry to post one more time. Still reading back over comments and trying to work out what the general principles are:

1) A "shorter" link cable is better. But does that mean the arms have to sit closer? Or do you compensate for the shortness by using a longer main brake cable? (Not sure about my terms here, I'm calling "link cable" the short one that sits across the straddle, and the "main" cable the one that goes all the way back to the lever)
2) Pads further away from brake arms is better, rearranging washers to make it work - but some posters say it doesn't make all that much difference. I tried it on one side, but the pad is now almost touching the rim.
3) Brake arm should be parallel to fork blade when engaging rim. I tried to check this, but in practice the vertical arm doesn't actually rotate that much, so it's kind of parallel the whole time.

Sorry to be so spammy.

Why? Are you scared that someone will grill you? (Sorry.)



Quick question: the back of the right brake says "L" and the back of the left one says "R". The pads (Kool stop) are the opposite. Is it possible the LBS put them on backwards? Yes! I remember reading about a Tricross that an LBS had forgotten to put something a key bearing in, back when I was thinking of getting one. Any bike shop is capable of anything. With possibly a very few exceptions like Condor in London (a legendary courier and crit racer hangout, although they build nice crossers too, if you have the money).

As for the tech questions, other people could give better answers than I, but have you read Sheldon Brown's page on cantilever theory? It's excellent, although the linked practical page looks unfinished - I'd to go Park Tool's site for that.

Also - related thread on another forum. The action is over on Retrobikes, a "Land that time forgot" forum that focusses mostly but not exclusively on 80s and early 90s MTBS, so interest and expertise on cantis is again high - and New Wave haircuts and trainers worn with suits are still in fashion. Take a look at

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=66630&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

...if you're not allergic to hair gel and pastel shirts. The "best ever brakes list" might especially interest crosser tech heads - no, it doesn't include MAFACs!

stevage - I think you're ok with that front brake:

http://www.bikeman.com/BR7463.html Tektro CR720 Canti Brake: Rear or Front Silver Blast. Dual tension adjusters. Pads are factory installed for rear wheel. For front wheel interchange the pads.

Hmm, can't believe I didn't think of reading Sheldon before. I've just had the front brake serviced again (free), and now I'm even less comfortable with it. From Sheldon's description, the problem is insufficient mechanical advantage - the brake quickly makes contact, but it takes an enormous amount of force to actually stop. Stopping on a steep hill in the wet recently was actually scary.

What's interesting is that my other Tricross has a Shimano cantilever brake on the rear (and disk front), and that works great - I can easily lock up the wheel. So I'm going to read up a little more, look very closely and try and understand.

Anyone know an easy way to measure mechanical advantage? If I'm doing experiments, it'd be nice to know for certain how much improvement I'm getting...

Steve

Thanks for that retrobikes link as well. Here's what it boils down to:
----
Now for those who do not want to upgrade to V-brakes, the best solutions is to
experiment with their straddle-cable position/angle (raising or lowering the
carrier increases or decreases the leverage - low for more leverage, high for
less leverage). A softer lever feel means more leverage, and less pad movement
for a given amount of lever travel, and vice versa for a firm lever feel.
----

Stevage -

You should be fine with those tuning procedures and Kools, but -

- Even with good MA you can still lose braking power to brake flex. The way to fix this is with brake boosters: look for them on ebay.

- Good cable maintenance is important! Consult St Sheldon again.

- If you *really* want to maximize braking power, there was a canti of such legendary, dark and unholy power that it would lift the back wheel of a tandem off the ground. At least it would if it was set up right and the fork was rigid enough - otherwise it was just moderately powerful while squealing VERY loudly. The brake was the Scott Pedersen Self Energizer. A guy is intermittently selling NOS on ebay - if you buy a set you'll want to take them apart and lube the axle, which needs doing about yearly. Opinions on this brake were very mixed: some people loved them, some feared them, some said so what. I just bought some and they were very cheap - I'll let you know what they're like once I've fitted them.

Hmm, good thoughts. I see there are quite a few manufacturers of "brake boosters" - http://www.bikepro.com/products/brakes/brake_boost.html . I don't know if I have "brake arm flex", so I'll see how I go with moving the straddle cable first.

Looking at the bike, the straddle cable does look high to me - it's riding maybe 7 cm above the tyre, making the angle between the main cable and the arms maybe 130 degrees. The retrobikes post said 90 was ideal, but that's obviously impossible with Tektro CR720s - the arms sit level with the rims.

Do post your results with the self-energizing brake. Had a quick read up - sounds extremely grabby to me. I'm not a big fan of going over handlebars - did it last weekend (no brakes involved) just to remind myself how not fun it is.

Steve

Quick TRP Euro X stuff...

The cheaper aluminum EuroX brakes have fixed post brake pad holders and the brakes themselves have no provisions for toe in. If your canti studs are a little off, you may have some toe issues. A quick way to "adjust" your toe in is to stick post of the holder in a vice and take a box end of a wrench and bend the post and holder. Do this a little bit at a time and stick it back into the brake to see your progress.

I think this way is better than grabbing the whole brake and twisting it. And you especially can't do that with the older carbon versions that didn't come with the adjust brake pad holders