Touring - touring wheelset, 230# rider

i'm looking to have new a new wheelset built for my cross check. i weigh 230#, run a 32cm tire and ride mostly pavement. i've considered mavic a719 and velocity dyad rims, xt and white ind. hubs and will use double butted spokes.

my hesitation is with spoke count. many of the reading i've done shows fellas using 36 front and rear with no problems. very few seem to ride more than that. the wheelbuilder i spoke to is recommending a least 40 with 48 being "ideal". that mean i have to use the white ind. hubs which are more $.

i generally ride pavement (sometimes rough) and gravel roads. my touring is kept to weekends at present, so my loads are generally under 40#.

any suggestions? are the 40 or 48 spoke wheels necessary and worth the extra cost? i want something trouble free but don't want to spend $ simply for bling.

thanks

36 spokes is more than adequate with an appropriate rim. i run 36 spokes in my mtb and abuse those wheels harder than anything that roads could dish out. a strong wheel is all in the build. spokes need proper tension and even tension while being true.

i'm looking to have new a new wheelset built for my cross check. i weigh 230#, run a 32cm tire and ride mostly pavement. i've considered mavic a719 and velocity dyad rims, xt and white ind. hubs and will use double butted spokes.

my hesitation is with spoke count. many of the reading i've done shows fellas using 36 front and rear with no problems. very few seem to ride more than that. the wheelbuilder i spoke to is recommending a least 40 with 48 being "ideal". that mean i have to use the white ind. hubs which are more $.

i generally ride pavement (sometimes rough) and gravel roads. my touring is kept to weekends at present, so my loads are generally under 40#.

any suggestions? are the 40 or 48 spoke wheels necessary and worth the extra cost? i want something trouble free but don't want to spend $ simply for bling.

thanks

36 should work, although a 700 C wheel is weaker then the 26" wheel reptilezs uses. However instead of double butted spokes use DT Alpine (http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=16565&category=197). They make for a much stronger wheel and are worth the effort to find. I have a mountain bike wheel that I built up around 2001 using them that is still going strong.

36 spokes is more than adequate with an appropriate rim. i run 36 spokes in my mtb and abuse those wheels harder than anything that roads could dish out. a strong wheel is all in the build. spokes need proper tension and even tension while being true.
Of course a 26" MTB wheel with 36 spokes is about equivalent to a 700c wheel with 40 spokes. 36 good quality spokes and a strong rim may well be sufficient, but going to 40 would provide an extra margin of strength. We had repeated problems with the rear wheel of our tandem when we used 36 spoke wheels. Finally switched to 48 spokes and the problems disappeared. No need for that many spokes in the front though.

36 is plenty for you...Shimano hubs are fine, and much cheaper. Use a quality straight gauge spoke on the rear wheel. If you don't have any plans to ride a really wide tire, you could consider Velocity Synergy rims. They are a tough rim, and a bit lighter.

What you do need is a good wheelbuilder.

Mavic A-719 36 spoke on XT hubs are a good combo. I'm 230-240 and have had a set on my touring bike for the past 5 years and I've never broken a spoke.

the builder i'll probably be using has a good rep for wheel building. i like to sitck with easy to find spokes and he doesn't like straight guage.

jimblairo, how much load do you typically carry and what type of touring (road conditions)?

thanks

36 is plenty for you...Shimano hubs are fine, and much cheaper. Use a quality straight gauge spoke on the rear wheel. If you don't have any plans to ride a really wide tire, you could consider Velocity Synergy rims. They are a tough rim, and a bit lighter.

What you do need is a good wheelbuilder.

Why do you suggest a straight gauge spoke? Everything I've read and heard is that double butted are more durable because the thin center section elongates a touch and absorbs shocks, reducing the impact to the spoke elbow and the thread/nipple interface.

Mavic A719 36 or 40 spoke in the back and Mavic A719 36 spoke in the front. Three-cross with swaged (butted) DT or Wheelsmith spokes, Deore XT or Phil Wood hubs.

The XT hubs are fine and you don't have to spend the extra money for the Phil Hubs.

You could go with 32 spokes in the front but the more spokes the merrier.

Why do you suggest a straight gauge spoke? Everything I've read and heard is that double butted are more durable because the thin center section elongates a touch and absorbs shocks, reducing the impact to the spoke elbow and the thread/nipple interface.

The guy that built my wheels says he has better luck with straight gauge for rear wheels for big guys. I am a clydesdale, and I do lite touring. The rims are Ambrosio Excellence, 32 spokes, Ultegra hubs. They haven't needed truing and this is their second year. (Edit, they may have had some minor truing, but I haven't had a wheel go out of true while riding or anything)

I have also heard what you are saying. I suspect both approaches are reasonable. I certainly don't know enough to say if one is better than the other.

I'm not sure if my previous rear wheel (CXP33,32spokes,Durace) was dble butted. It was built by a different local bike shop. I think it was, only time I had trouble with them was when I did something no sane person would.

jimblairo, how much load do you typically carry and what type of touring (road conditions)?


Panniers on front with frame bag and a Carradice SQR Tour seat bag. Total loaded about 40 lbs max. I run Schwalbe Marathon tires 700X35 and probably ride 50%on rail to trail(stone dust and pea gravel) and 50% pavement.

I weigh the same , I built up a set of wheels: 36h XT hubs, velocity dyad rims. 36 hole hubs are plenty strong, most hubs are strong enough.. some are easier to maintain. The velocity dyad is a wider rim, I run 37mm wide tires for a softer ride and mixed terrain.

the builder i'll probably be using has a good rep for wheel building. i like to sitck with easy to find spokes and he doesn't like straight guage.

jimblairo, how much load do you typically carry and what type of touring (road conditions)?

thanks

The Alpines aren't that difficult to get. If the wheel builder works in a shop, he can order them through QBP. If you are worried about replacement if one should fail:

1. They are less likely to fail because of the extra strength at the head
2. you can always use a 'regular' spoke as a replacement.

They are worth the effort;)

i'm looking to have new a new wheelset built for my cross check. i weigh 230#, run a 32cm tire and ride mostly pavement. i've considered mavic a719 and velocity dyad rims, xt and white ind. hubs and will use double butted spokes.

my hesitation is with spoke count. many of the reading i've done shows fellas using 36 front and rear with no problems. very few seem to ride more than that. the wheelbuilder i spoke to is recommending a least 40 with 48 being "ideal". that mean i have to use the white ind. hubs which are more $.

i generally ride pavement (sometimes rough) and gravel roads. my touring is kept to weekends at present, so my loads are generally under 40#.

any suggestions? are the 40 or 48 spoke wheels necessary and worth the extra cost? i want something trouble free but don't want to spend $ simply for bling.

thanks


I'd get the White Ind. hubs over Xt's . Mavic A719 over the Dyads. When it comes to wheels, I don't recommend to go cheap unless you absolutely cannot afford better hubs or don't plan on keeping them. Better hubs cost more, but so what? It's not like buying plane ticket, good hubs with replaceable cartridge bearings are a long term investment. If however, you like packing grease and adjusting bearings/cones on non replaceable bearing races in the year 2009 and beyond ..... get XT hubs.

48 spokes may not be necessary, but they will be durable. I'm assuming you have a very good builder? His wheels "stand"?(won't need truing after they leave his hands) Some builders with less know how think more spokes can make up for a sub-par wheelbuild. Not true. If you want another opinion on spoke count/rims/hubs for your wheels, drop Joe Young (www.youngwheels.com (http://www.youngwheels.com) ) or Peter White an email, they'll give you an recommendation. Joe Young builds many wheels for heavier riders. I have a set of wheels from Joe and they have been trouble free and never needed truing in 9 years.

I've toured at times when I weighed 260, and I rode LX hubs, with 36 spokes, and Alex dh22 rims. Spokes were straight. I think there is something to be said for Downhill rims. They have the right weight and section, and there are a lot more choices out there than actual touring rims which may be limited to Mavic A719, which has a mixed rep.

Butted spokes are said to be stronger, what isn't said is whether that actually maters. There are two equally credible and proven opinions on the spokes thing, coming from people who spend way more on bikes than any of us and have lots of outfitting and building experience. One favours double or tripple butted spokes and the other straight gage. I go with the straight gage because they have always worked fine for me. The argument for SG spokes is that A) spokes don't break on properly built wheels, they should outlast 10 of the best quality rims; B) SG spokes are stronger when it comes to crap getting into the wheel which has happened to me, a bag shifts and something slides into a spoke, or a stick jumps up. Ultimately it's a toss-up.

CC is a big booster of the Alpines. As far as I know, that is just because once he started using them his wheel problems vanished. That's good info, but I never have wheel problem with my SG spokes, so I don't think it is the spokes that account for this. They may well be the best spokes, but what is their global wheel share? There are other ways of getting light reliable wheels.

Making good wheels is relatively simple. If you are going to a name wheel builder, you should probably take their advice because the only thing you are really getting that you wouldn't get from any other competent mechanic is their Knowledge of their stock, and certain recipees that work great. If you ask them to go out of their comfort zone you are loosing the main advantage they have to offer. Even something as simple as a new order of spokes from the same source can end up having a change that will make for bad wheels. Good components can end up creating bad wheels. Wheels that are properly built out of compatible components of high quality are the key.

The guy that built my wheels says he has better luck with straight gauge for rear wheels for big guys.

That is ridiculous. Get someone else to build your wheels.

Mavic A-719 36 spoke on XT hubs are a good combo. I'm 230-240 and have had a set on my touring bike for the past 5 years and I've never broken a spoke.

I second the Mavic's. I have a set on my touring bike (EX721's w/ CK hubs and 1.75 Marathon Plus tires)
and they are great. I knowthe 721 are wider than your looking for but Mavic makes a nice rim.

"That is ridiculous. Get someone else to build your wheels."

Yeah, I can't see them being a problem but there are guys who recomend straight gage, like Beckmann, I think. The vast majority of wheels are built with SG, so it is equally unlikely to be a problem.

What we have is a lot of threads that are about someone whose wheels failed in a trip lasting a few thousand miles, or even just a few hundred. Spokes can last hundreds of thousands of miles, so if there is a problem, and if there is a better product, is it getting 325000 mi. rather than 300000 with SG, or are SG only good for 250 miles while Butted will got 300000 and counting.

That's what is missed; spokes are not a consumable, or a limiting factor in properly built wheels. Tires wear out. Rims wear out if caliper brakes are used. Spokes and hubs can be a lifetime purchase. And that is for standard forged hubs, and any decent brand of spokes.

Along the road one or two spokes may fail, but those should be replaced and the wheel should eventually be stable. What happens though is someone gets some spoke failures, throws the wheel out and and buys some new stuff, and so on. Until they either get a hot set-up (now the only one that actually works in their mind), or they just keep on at it.

Butted spokes are stronger. They're drawn through a mandrel, which strengthens the steel. I'm using an asymmetrical rear rim (Velocity Synergy), laced to an XT hub with 36 14-15 gauge DT spokes. I weigh 211, carry pannier loads similar to yours and have had zero problems. The offset eyelets in the rim result in almost no dish, even with the 9 speed cassette. Strong wheels.

I don't believe anyone else has mentioned that, should you ever really taco a wheel in a small town, you may have some difficulty finding 40 or 48 spoke rims. You're not likely having a problem finding rims to mate to a 36 spoke hub.

CC is a big booster of the Alpines. As far as I know, that is just because once he started using them his wheel problems vanished. That's good info, but I never have wheel problem with my SG spokes, so I don't think it is the spokes that account for this. They may well be the best spokes, but what is their global wheel share? There are other ways of getting light reliable wheels.

I didn't have that many wheel issue before I started using Alpines. Sure I broke some spokes and I've broken lots of wheels but most of those where wear issues. I'm a proponent of Alpines for the simple matter that they make far more sense than other spokes.

Spokes...either double or single butted...are threaded by rolling the threads onto the spoke, not by cutting the thread. Rolling the thread expands the diameter of the spoke at the nipple. For 2.0mm spokes, the new diameter is 2.3mm. To get that spoke through the hub, the hole in the flange has to be 2.5mm (roughly). On most spokes that leaves 0.5mm of play in the spoke/hub interface since the diameter of the spoke at the elbow is 2.0mm. In normal riding...with the wheel going through tensioning and detensioning under normal use... there is plenty of room for the spoke head to move around in the hub and eventually fail.

The Alpines, on the other hand, are are 2.34mm diameter a the elbow. They fit much tighter and have far less room to move and the elbow is just a wee bit heavier so failure is less of an issue. Wheelsmith makes a similar spoke using straight gauge with a heavier head. I haven't tried them but I suspect that they would perform similarly to the Alpines.

I've had these (http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-LX-Mavic-A119-36-Hole-700c-Touring-Wheels-Wheelset_W0QQitemZ200360351561QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCycling_Parts_Accessories?hash=item2ea6685749&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50) on my Cannondale T800 for three years now and never had a problem. Put maybe 3500 hundred miles on so far, I go 270 lbs and carry at times another 30 lbs of gear.

The guy that built my wheels says he has better luck with straight gauge for rear wheels for big guys. I am a clydesdale, and I do lite touring. The rims are Ambrosio Excellence, 32 spokes, Ultegra hubs. They haven't needed truing and this is their second year. (Edit, they may have had some minor truing, but I haven't had a wheel go out of true while riding or anything)

I have also heard what you are saying. I suspect both approaches are reasonable. I certainly don't know enough to say if one is better than the other.

I'm not sure if my previous rear wheel (CXP33,32spokes,Durace) was dble butted. It was built by a different local bike shop. I think it was, only time I had trouble with them was when I did something no sane person would.


my understanding is that while a wheel with butted spokes is less likely to have spokes break from fatigue a wheel built with straight gauge spokes is less likely to taco. Personally I think the biggest difference is how the wheel was built and whether the rim is appropriate for the load. I built lots of front wheels with straight 15g and the rears with straight 14g. no spokes broke.

Thanks CC, that explains your thinking. I don't know whether the Alpines are the best spoke or not, but it wouldn't surprise me. I just don't think the difference is critical. It is critical to avoid fatigue; there are other spokes that fit well, and there are those little washer things, though I haven't bothered with them myself.

"a wheel built with straight gauge spokes is less likely to taco."

Why would that be?

"Butted spokes are stronger."

That isn't true, or at least according to Jobst Brandt of The Bicycle wheel fame. They are supposed to be more fatigue resistant. But in an email from Jobst, he said not stronger. Jobst has been running the same spokes, about 300 000 miles. Which is why I wonder whether I really need to be concerned about fatigue resistence for the most part, at my mileages.

I'm generally a believer in spending as much as it takes on wheels. I should be all for butted spokes, just haven't seen the need so far.

I've had these (http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-LX-Mavic-A119-36-Hole-700c-Touring-Wheels-Wheelset_W0QQitemZ200360351561QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCycling_Parts_Accessories?hash=item2ea6685749&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50) on my Cannondale T800 for three years now and never had a problem. Put maybe 3500 hundred miles on so far, I go 270 lbs and carry at times another 30 lbs of gear.

Another corn-fed Wisconsinite?!?!?!? Where abouts in WI?

garthr- thanks for the info on joe young. i've contacted him and will likely have a set built with white industries hubs, mavic a719 36/40 respectively. the 40 in the rear just being for added piece of mind.

Another corn-fed Wisconsinite?!?!?!? Where abouts in WI?

Plymouth Wisconsin, doing a ride in two weeks, leaving Sheboygan and going up to Washington Island and back. Figure about 350- 400 miles.

Plymouth Wisconsin, doing a ride in two weeks, leaving Sheboygan and going up to Washington Island and back. Figure about 350- 400 miles.

Nice... we are doing the Heatstroke 100 out of Burlington on Sunday. I am near Alpine Valley. Flown over Washington Island alot but have never been able to get up there for some riding. Have fun!

Nice... we are doing the Heatstroke 100 out of Burlington on Sunday. I am near Alpine Valley. Flown over Washington Island alot but have never been able to get up there for some riding. Have fun!

Ah Alpine Valley, years ago used to take golf vacations there if I remember they have 27 holes and it was all you could golf for 125 bucks a day which included your room and two meals, use to catch concerts there also, even saw Madonna there one year long long ago. You should come to Sheboygan for the Maywood ride, very nice ride and well supported going through the Kettles.

garthr- thanks for the info on joe young. i've contacted him and will likely have a set built with white industries hubs, mavic a719 36/40 respectively. the 40 in the rear just being for added piece of mind.

A recommendation I've seen follows this logic: If you use 40 in the rear, use 40 in the front also. Suppose you damage the rear rim (hit a rock, car bumps you, etc.), finding a 40 hole replacement rim quickly may be difficult in small towns (or large towns). However, with 40 hole front rim, you can rebuild the rear wheel using the front 40 hole rim and replace the front wheel with an inexpensive 36 spoke wheel.

36 spokes is more than adequate with an appropriate rim. i run 36 spokes in my mtb and abuse those wheels harder than anything that roads could dish out. a strong wheel is all in the build. spokes need proper tension and even tension while being true.

Exactly.

The guy may want to get a touring rim for peace of mind, but with the medium sized tires he likes, a medium size rim like the Synergy would be a great choice.

And if he wants the 'touring package' with the idea of doing serious touring at some point... the first thing I'd suggest is tires larger than 32. And if he does that, he wants the wider rim to better acommodate the tire.

ok. spoke with another builder and that combined with the responses here, i think i'm going 36/36. a719 rims are the front runner right now and double butted spokes.

i was leaning towards the white industries hubs and then was told to also check out chris king hubs.

what are your opinions on king hubs vs. whites?

thanks

what are your opinions on king hubs vs. whites?


Shimano... XT or XTR

My wife's bike has XTR hubs, and they are quite nice.

If you really feel the need to look slightly different, I'd go Phil, King is ok, but
I don't care for the sound much.

Phil, they make touring hubs and you can get a front and rear hub that uses all the same spoke length if you use caliper brakes.

It is probably a myth that boutique hubs are more durable. There are nice sized bearing in the Shimano hubs, and most anything that goes wrong can be fixed for a few squirts of grease and a few ball bearings. The CNC billet hubs appeal to me, but the grain orientation isn't as good as in the forged hubs. What I like about the Phils is they make an actual touring hub. They make 40 hole hubs not only for tandems. And they are field serviceable, and they have hardened axles.

The thing about Phils is they make a bombproof freewheel hub, that is where the rep comes from, Shimano introduced the cassette hub to deal with some of the same issues. People who won't use a freewheel hub (most people) probably have little to worry about in a cheapo LX if all they want are 36 holes.

I don't doubt the White or King hubs are good but I don't really see them shooting for the touring market all that much. For touring I would go Phil , or DT Swiss if I wanted a superior loose bearing hub.

I use 36 Whites on my mountain bike and mountain tandem. One set is over 10 years old, they just keep on going. I wouldn't have any issues using them for a touring build. If you are looking for a used 7 speed freewheel set I have them in the garage.
I weigh in at about 275 right now and for my touring build I am going with the Phil's and Mavic A719's. I want my wheels to be bullet proof and this set up should be worth the extra $$ in the long run.

Phil, they make touring hubs and you can get a front and rear hub that uses all the same spoke length if you use caliper brakes.

It is probably a myth that boutique hubs are more durable. There are nice sized bearing in the Shimano hubs, and most anything that goes wrong can be fixed for a few squirts of grease and a few ball bearings. The CNC billet hubs appeal to me, but the grain orientation isn't as good as in the forged hubs. What I like about the Phils is they make an actual touring hub. They make 40 hole hubs not only for tandems. And they are field serviceable, and they have hardened axles.

The thing about Phils is they make a bombproof freewheel hub, that is where the rep comes from, Shimano introduced the cassette hub to deal with some of the same issues. People who won't use a freewheel hub (most people) probably have little to worry about in a cheapo LX if all they want are 36 holes.

I don't doubt the White or King hubs are good but I don't really see them shooting for the touring market all that much. For touring I would go Phil , or DT Swiss if I wanted a superior loose bearing hub.

+1, Phil wood is pretty too :-) I have a touring wheelset, Phil Wood + 7 speed freewheel, the hub is smooth as butter but I have replaced rims on it, from 1991.

If you want another opinion on spoke count/rims/hubs for your wheels, drop Joe Young (www.youngwheels.com (http://www.youngwheels.com) ) or Peter White an email, they'll give you an recommendation. Joe Young builds many wheels for heavier riders. I have a set of wheels from Joe and they have been trouble free and never needed truing in 9 years.

I vote for Joe!! Great guy, willing to listen to my newbie questions

I have a set I built out of Dyads with 36h XTwith me at 225 lb! No problems in 4 years of bad roads.

Doesn't Velocity offer a 40H hub also?? Anyone had one?

Best, John

I have King hubs on my LHT w/ 36 spoke Mavic EX 721 hoops. They are bomb proof and the chatter about the noise King hubs make is nonsence. They are almost silent. Perhaps if your on a carbon frame they may make a noise but on a heavy steel frame it's not even an issue.

There are alot of good hub makers out there. As to a good touring hub I really like Phil, DT, or White Industries. Dt has the worlds easiest hub to service to if I was to build a touring specific wheel I would probably go that route...you dont even need tools to service the freehub. Either way I highly doubt you will have issues with any of the above hubs.

With that being said I personally own two sets of king hubs, one on my mountain bike and one on my do everything (road, cross, commuter, tourer) bike. I really like the sound and the hub is also quite easy to service the drive mechanism but the needle bearings inside the freehub do take the special tool and a little more work. The main problem I have with them as a touring hub would be the sound, for me it is no problem but in suggesting it to others I dont know how they would handle it because regardless of frame type it is noisier than other hubs on the market.

Get the 48 spoke! I am 215 lbs and on my loaded bike I'm 300. Ran a 40 spoke rear 4 cross 2mm straight guage spoke on Velocity Dyad rims and destroyed the wheel doing less than 5 MPH going over a curb perpendicularly. Now I'm in the middle of a long tour riding a 3 cross 36 spoke with the old hub in my handlebar bag and contemplating shelling out $700 for a Phill Wood hub 48 spoke on Dyads...do it right the first time and avoid ****ting your pants every time you go over a little bump. Sure, many people have gotten away with 36 spoke rears but more haven't. How many people do you hear of wrecking 48 spoke wheels? Any? I haven't but I've heard of just as many people breaking their 36s as those who are happy with 'em. FWIW the guy who built my wheels is 260lbs and he tours too. He'd tell ya the same thing.

Lotsa luck.

Thanks CC, that explains your thinking. I don't know whether the Alpines are the best spoke or not, but it wouldn't surprise me. I just don't think the difference is critical. It is critical to avoid fatigue; there are other spokes that fit well, and there are those little washer things, though I haven't bothered with them myself.

"a wheel built with straight gauge spokes is less likely to taco."

Why would that be?

"Butted spokes are stronger."

That isn't true, or at least according to Jobst Brandt of The Bicycle wheel fame. They are supposed to be more fatigue resistant. But in an email from Jobst, he said not stronger. Jobst has been running the same spokes, about 300 000 miles. Which is why I wonder whether I really need to be concerned about fatigue resistence for the most part, at my mileages.

I'm generally a believer in spending as much as it takes on wheels. I should be all for butted spokes, just haven't seen the need so far.

For a given amount of tension, the butted spoke stretches more. As you apply increasing weight on the axle, the tension of the spokes below the axle will decrease until at some point they will go slack. If there is enough weight on the bike in use to make the spokes go slack, the elbows will flex, which will eventually cause spoke failure. So the butted spokes are superior in this respect...

BUT...

For stiffness to resist side loads on the wheel, (think about someone pushing sideways against the bike while you are stationary), the thicker spokes will make the wheel stronger.

It's funny that it always comes down to the noise that King hubs make. On my LHT, with no load on the bike other than myself, they are almost silent