Classic & Vintage - Which Brooks for mixte roadbike: Sprung or Unsprung?

http://queenmargot.com/marianne1a.jpg

I am sprucing up this recently acquired Motobecane mixte c.1981. I plan to use it
for fast-ish long distance cycling and touring. I am keeping the drop bars for now,
but may later replace them with something like mustache bars.

I have never ridden a roadbike before, only relaxed frames with upright seating
positions. What are your recommendations regarding the most appropriate Brooks
saddle for this bicycle? My instinct is to get the Flyer, but will the springs be
counterproductive to the sportier geometry? I am not concerned about the weight of
the saddle, only comfort. It has been suggested to me that the B17 or B72 might
actually be better for this bike, but I have a hard time believing that. My other
saddles are the B66 and B18, both on upright bikes.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Why are you so fixated on Brooks saddles? They're decent saddles, but they're horrendously over-hyped, and there are better saddles available for the silly prices Brooks command.

Why are you so fixated on Brooks saddles? They're decent saddles, but they're horrendously over-hyped, and there are better saddles available for the silly prices Brooks command.

Because I have ridden others with the aftereffects of horrendous pain. I will not get on a plastic saddle again, be it gel, padded, what have you.

The "suspended leather vs plastic" debate is a matter of personal opinion and I propose we leave it at that. This is not an issue I was raising with my question.

Brooks B67 (order the "B67s" for ladies model) and Nitto Dove bars - both highly recommended for around town. If I had another upright bike, I'd buy another B67 in a second. If you're keeping the drop bars, a B17 might be better, depending on the width of your sitbones. I've got three of those as well.

Btw, I've been looking for a Motobecane mixte for years. That's a great find!

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c190/sunburststrat/bikes/peugeot%20mixte/peugeotmixtess.jpg

Exit, Why don't you name a few of the competitors that you personally like?

I have no experiences with these:
Velo-orange makes leather saddles that look nice, but the have a limited range. Cardiff saddles look very nice but I am not sure of the price. Persons makes leather saddles but I have seen complaints about the quality.

Anyhow, the originial question. I like the unsprung saddles with drop bars and the sprung saddles with north road bars, mostly for aesthtic reasons.

Brooks B67 (order the "B67s" for ladies model) and Nitto Dove bars - both highly recommended. If I had another upright bike, I'd buy another B67 in a second.

Yup, I would be getting the S regardless of the model. You ride on a B67 with the Dove bars, interesting. That is even heavier sprung that the Flyer. I would possibly be getting the Albatros bars in future (the Dove would be too narrow for me). How upright is your position with those bars? Nice bike BTW!

Depends on your riding style. If you are going to be riding it in with drop bars or in a forward leaning position get the Flyer. The springs really don't affect pedaling very much. I would only go with a B67 saddle if you are sitting nearly upright. FWIW I am a Brooks saddle fiend it is the ONLY saddle I have ever been able to ride out of the box for long distances with minimal discomfort, once broken in I can ride for long distances in comfort.

Aaron:)

...
Velo-orange makes leather saddles that look nice, but the have a limited range. Cardiff saddles look very nice but I am not sure of the price. Persons makes leather saddles but I have seen complaints about the quality.
Both the VO saddles and the Rivendell Cardiff saddles are (openly) imitative of Brooks and the price difference is not significant. If I had lots of bikes, then yes, perhaps one of them would have a VO saddle and one of them a Cardiff, just for variety's sake. Maybe also a Dutch Leper (which is even more pricey than Brooks). But I really feel that I have not exhausted the pleasures of Brooks yet. My local shop (Harris) happens to stock an amazing variety of Brooks saddles, so I am in the fortunate position of being able to paw, feel, and try them before buying. This contributes to my comfort level of buying them. Again, this is all personal opinion and can be discussed till the cows come home. But here my question pre-supposes a choice between Brooks models : )



Anyhow, the originial question. I like the unsprung saddles with drop bars and the sprung saddles with north road bars, mostly for aesthtic reasons.
Yes, visually that's my feeling as well. But I'll feel silly getting a B17 or a Team Pro (the looks of which I prefer) if I then end up whining that my butt hurts after day-long rides. Tough decisions!

Yup, I would be getting the S regardless of the model. You ride on a B67 with the Dove bars, interesting. That is even heavier sprung that the Flyer. I would possibly be getting the Albatros bars in future (the Dove would be too narrow for me). How upright is your position with those bars? Nice bike BTW!

The bike is quite upright with those bars. The bar/saddle combination really work well togethor. Peugeot had e x

eous

Depends on your riding style. If you are going to be riding it in with drop bars or in a forward leaning position get the Flyer. The springs really don't affect pedaling very much. I would only go with a B67 saddle if you are sitting nearly upright. FWIW I am a Brooks saddle fiend it is the ONLY saddle I have ever been able to ride out of the box for long distances with minimal discomfort, once broken in I can ride for long distances in comfort.

Aaron:)

Thanks, this is helpful. If the Flyer does not effect pedaling with drop bars, then there is no reason I should not get it. My concern was, that should I end up leaving the drop bars on, the Flyer would be inappropriate. As you can tell, I am biased towards the Flyer. However, my husband has it on his road bike (http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2009/07/beautiful-boston-day.html) (also with drop bars) and says he is still not sure whether it was the right choice vs. a B17. Several female acquaintances seem to also think the B17 is the one for fast, long-distance riding.

Nice blog! And welcome to C&V.

Since you are in Neal Learner's neighborhood (Cambridge area), possibly you could PM him (nlearner). I believe he has a great selection of Brooks and you could see which saddle might look/work best for you. Or take the bike over to Harris Cyclery and see what they have in stock.

Are you bringing your Moto's to NH this summer?

Hi pastorbobnlnh and thanks! We used to live in NH and still go there occasionally. Neal Lerner caught my attention on another thread with his amazing '38 Raleigh Lady's Tourist. And we pester Harris with our presence on a regular basis!

I've got the VO model 67 clone on one of my bikes and I am quite happy with it. It stretched a bit at first, but that was easy to fix. There is a bit of spring noise, not bad and I suspect pretty normal for this type of saddle. It's a great looking saddle and I like the brown color. It has a pebble finish to the leather also...kinda' cool. IMHO almost as good as the Brooks.

Since you are in Neal Learner's neighborhood (Cambridge area), possibly you could PM him (nlearner). I believe he has a great selection of Brooks and you could see which saddle might look/work best for you.

Slight correction: no "a" in that name: nlerner/Lerner

The two sprung Brooks models I ride regularly are the Champion Flyer and the Conquest. I like them both a great deal. I've tried the B66 several times, but felt it was just too wide and heavy for me (then again, I ride a B17 and a Pro with upright bars). I also think you can't go wrong with a B72. Yup, just as wide as the B66 but somehow a bit more give in my experience.

If you are in my neighborhood, you're welcome to come on over and try a few.

Neal

I just ordered a B17 and Flyer. My plans was to use the Flyer on a bike with a similar purpose. If that doesn't work, I have other plans for its use. I'm really hoping it works though because it looks so comfortable and would be great for that bike.

The two sprung Brooks models I ride regularly are the Champion Flyer and the Conquest. I like them both a great deal. I've tried the B66 several times, but felt it was just too wide and heavy for me (then again, I ride a B17 and a Pro with upright bars). I also think you can't go wrong with a B72. Yup, just as wide as the B66 but somehow a bit more give in my experience.

If you are in my neighborhood, you're welcome to come on over and try a few. We have 2 vintage B72s, both of which were in rock-hard condition. The husband's has been nursed back to health now and laced (http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2009/06/velo-corsetry-rescuing-vintage-saddles.html), but mine we have not tackled yet.

Thank you for your nice offer; I might just take you up on it, if only to meet your Lady's Tourist! I do live "in the neighborhood", though I am abroad at the moment for work.



I just ordered a B17 and Flyer. My plans was to use the Flyer on a bike with a similar purpose. If that doesn't work, I have other plans for its use. I'm really hoping it works though because it looks so comfortable and would be great for that bike.
Hey, good idea -- I could get both! : )) Right...

Hi Veloria and welcome to BF and C&V!

Personally, I think the B17 looks more appropriate on a mixte, but thats just my opinion.
My take on it is the Flyer is more for upright riding and the B17 more towards the drop
bar racing/touring position.

Marty

p.s. Gorgeous Moto Mixte!

Thanks, this is helpful. If the Flyer does not effect pedaling with drop bars, then there is no reason I should not get it. My concern was, that should I end up leaving the drop bars on, the Flyer would be inappropriate. As you can tell, I am biased towards the Flyer. However, my husband has it on his road bike (http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2009/07/beautiful-boston-day.html) (also with drop bars) and says he is still not sure whether it was the right choice vs. a B17. Several female acquaintances seem to also think the B17 is the one for fast, long-distance riding.

I was going to suggest the B17. It's well-proven for long distance riding. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by fast, but certainly this is not a "toodle for 50 miles" bike.

I haven't tried sprung saddles with anything but a trekker bar, and so far I don't like it (my wife's Breezer Liberty with a NOS B72). I'm currently using a B17N Imperial on my Trek with drop bars a few cm below the saddle, and an Ideale 92 (French competitor to Brooks from the old days, similar shape to a B17) on my Woodrup with drop bars at saddle height. Both work well for those arrangements, though the Ideale is going to be replaced by a B17 Imperial someday soon. Mrs. Road Fan did not like a suspension post on her flat-bar road bike, a Cannondale Road Warrior 800.

I've tried a Velo-Orange Swallow imitation, and like the shape but not in the rear, plus it stretches a lot. i don't know if it's the leather or the narrowness, but I've noticed Swallows to stretch a lot, too.

But if the Flyer springs just add a bit of shock protection and not much cush, then I might go for it. OTOH, your mixte with the twin lateral tubes probably has a decent amount of vertical compliance, compared to a solid drop tube or a standard top tube.

i just looked over your websites, and being a Wienophile, I am again itching to go to Austria again! Wurstl on the street!

Your husband's bike has a Flyer. Why not borrow it for a day, put it on the mixte, and take a ride? Then you'll know if it's for you. Mrs. Road Fan does this to me all the time. Coordination is key.

B17 or flyer. They`ve got the same top, so it is only about springs or no springs. You do not really feel the springs so do not worry about that. They are both good when the bars is approx same height as saddle.

I`ve got a B72 on one quite upright bike. Great for that use but I would not use it for the purpose you describe.

Personally I am not a fan of the short nosed S models (got two) but I guess it is about anatomy and what you are used to. I feel they are "small" in a way, not always sure where the saddle is..

Mrs. Road Fan didn't like the Professional S I got her, either.

What tires are you using? The air volume and air preassure in the tires is part of the spring system on the bike. Fat tyres w low preassure gives a cushy ride w less need of a sprung saddle (and oposite) but you may want both.

The Flyer is the same shape as the B17, so I don't know why is would be less appropriate on a drop-bar bike. My Flyer is my most comfortable saddle, because it gives a little more shock protection than my second favorite B17's. I prefer the B17 shape for upright riding to the wider saddles. I don't ride the drops much, so the B17 works best for me with drop bars.

Trying Neal's saddles will only work if you ride each one for a couple of hours. The wide saddles feel more comfortable when you first sit on them, but are not necessarily the most comfortable after a couple of hours of riding. Ideally, you want a saddle that allows you to ride all day without ever thinking about your saddle.

i just looked over your websites, and being a Wienophile, I am again itching to go to Austria again! Wurstl on the street!
"Austria... wurstl on the streets!" That might actually be a nice slogan for the office of tourism : )



Your husband's bike has a Flyer. Why not borrow it for a day, put it on the mixte, and take a ride? Then you'll know if it's for you. Mrs. Road Fan does this to me all the time. Coordination is key.
Problem is that it is not exactly the same saddle, since I'd be getting the women's "S" version. I don't want to make my decision based on trying the version less suitable for my body structure. Also, I still won't be able to compare it with the B17 or the Team Pro -- i.e. even if it feels right, what if one of the others feels "righter"?

But based on the feedback, it seems that the thing to do is just go for the Flyer. If in doubt, I will just read this (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/saddles/springs.html) over and over again.



...
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by fast, but certainly this is not a "toodle for 50 miles" bike.
You don't think I could go 50 miles on this bike... Why not? That was certainly the plan.

What tires are you using? The air volume and air preassure in the tires is part of the spring system on the bike. Fat tyres w low preassure gives a cushy ride w less need of a sprung saddle (and oposite) but you may want both.
I am going to replace the current tires, most likely with Continental 27 x 1 1/4 Ultra GatorSkin. I am actually a little disappointed that (apparently?) there are no traditional-looking (gumwall) 27 x 1 1/4 tires that are also puncture resistant. I like the look of Michelin World Tour, but my understanding is that I'd be sacrificing performance (and puncture resistance) for aesthetics with these. This is a topic onto itself of course!

Didn't notice the Wein aspect of your blog until I read Road fan's post.
It's my favourite city bar none. I stayed in the 19th district while I did some work for
one of the Austrian Banks.
I'd kill for a good schnitzel, Goulash at the Alte Wein, and a Grosser Mocha at the Brauner Hoff.

Marty

Nice to hear that there are people here familiar with both Vienna and Boston. What an odd sense of "community"! Vienna is wonderful, but when you are away from home for a period of time, any place begins to grate on you. I need the ocean nearby for one thing.

Bike-wise, the nicest thing about staying here is the Donauradweg (Danube Cycle Path), which stretches from the Black Forest in Germany to the Black Sea in Romania, passing through several countries along the Danube. There are some photos of it in these posts (http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/search/label/Danube%20Cycle%20Path), though they do not do it justice. Also countless photos of bicycles and cyclists in Vienna (including naked ones!) here (http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/search/label/Vienna).

It was rather a shock to me when I went to Danube Island for the first time, I'm no prude
but there's something about a middle aged woman naked on a bike that isn't exactly appealing.

marty

It was rather a shock to me when I went to Danube Island for the first time, I'm no prude
but there's something about a middle aged woman naked on a bike that isn't exactly appealing.

marty


I wish all men looked like Brad Pitt, even with their clothes on.

I use a B17 for riding in an upright position and it works great for me (I am a clyde also). So I think it is a good solution for you...and would look good.

I still consider the flyer, (B17 with springs)..but as much for the look as anything. I don't feel like i am hurting by not having springs, but as I haven't tried them, I might be surprised.

I've actually seen more full-frontal men on the riverbanks than women, and they did not look like Brad Pitt. The nudity is quite a cultural difference between the US and Northern Continental Europe.

I use a B17 for riding in an upright position and it works great for me (I am a clyde also). So I think it is a good solution for you...and would look good.

I still consider the flyer, (B17 with springs)..but as much for the look as anything. I don't feel like i am hurting by not having springs, but as I haven't tried them, I might be surprised.

Oh you people really are trying to get me to buy both saddles : ((
The torment of indecision!

"Austria... wurstl on the streets!" That might actually be a nice slogan for the office of tourism : )



Problem is that it is not exactly the same saddle, since I'd be getting the women's "S" version. I don't want to make my decision based on trying the version less suitable for my body structure. Also, I still won't be able to compare it with the B17 or the Team Pro -- i.e. even if it feels right, what if one of the others feels "righter"?

But based on the feedback, it seems that the thing to do is just go for the Flyer. If in doubt, I will just read this (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/saddles/springs.html) over and over again.



You don't think I could go 50 miles on this bike... Why not? That was certainly the plan.

Sorry, that isn't really what I meant. I read your post as meaning you wanted to go fast, hence you wouldn't want to set it up as a city bike made for leisurely riding. That's why I asked how fast is fast. I'd assume "fast" does not mean 6 mph (sorry, 10 km/h) for 50 miles. I'd assume you're planning for more like 12 to 18 mph or up to 30 kph for short times, and as fast as practical otherwise. That's why I didn't go on talking much about teh B72, B67, or other saddles I am used to seeing on high-end city bikes, like the old Raleigh 3-speed Superbe. Not that one couldn't go fast on them, but the primary use was civilized, efficient errand riding and basic local transportation.

Sorry for having been misleading!

I wish all men looked like Brad Pitt, even with their clothes on.

Marty should have known he could only get into trouble ...

Road "not Brad Pitt, either" Fan

Sorry, that isn't really what I meant. I read your post as meaning you wanted to go fast, hence you wouldn't want to set it up as a city bike made for leisurely riding. That's why I asked how fast is fast. I'd assume "fast" does not mean 6 mph (sorry, 10 km/h) for 50 miles. I'd assume you're planning for more like 12 to 18 mph or up to 30 kph for short times, and as fast as practical otherwise. That's why I didn't go on talking much about teh B72, B67, or other saddles I am used to seeing on high-end city bikes, like the old Raleigh 3-speed Superbe. Not that one couldn't go fast on them, but the primary use was civilized, efficient errand riding and basic local transportation.

Sorry for having been misleading!

No problem. You understood correctly; I do not want to set it up as a city bike. The question is: If I do plan to go fast (let's say 15-20mph), is there anything about the Flyer that should hinder this in any way? When some say that unsprung saddles are more appropriate for a bike with drop bars, what do they mean, since the springs of the Flyer are said to be firm enough for road bikes with drop bars?... In other words, what, other than "the racing aesthetic," is the benefit of using an unsprung saddle, even if I plan to race on this bike?...

Oh you people really are trying to get me to buy both saddles : ((
The torment of indecision!


Ok.....Just buy the flyer, by all accounts it is not spongy, it will look cool and will give you the spring (so to speak ) when needed.

bis spater

it does sound like the flyer would be the best for you in this case...

I just saw the description of the Flyer "S" on harris cyclery's site



Flyer Special "s" Women's Version



The same as the Flyer Special but with a shorter snout. This version is primarly intended for women who plan to ride wearing a skirt.


there ya go... are you planning on riding in a skirt frequently?

I have the Pro S on my "go fast" bike.

Your mixte could be a "go fast" bike.

I've got the Flyer with springs (also an S ) on one of my meandering bikes with a loopy frame.

Buy as many different bikes and saddles as you can/want to.

That's what most of us here say at least...:D

Marty should have known he could only get into trouble ...

Road "not Brad Pitt, either" Fan



Right. And nothing gets by me. Absolutely nothing...;)

Jennifer Aniston is 40...

:innocent:

:roflmao2:

I ride a sprung B.66 on my commuter with flipped north roads every day. I move at 15+mph on my commute and i feel just as good on the B.66 as I do on a B.17. I like them both but I find the sprung saddle gives me the added option of having a really comfortable upright position when I am not down low.

CravenMoarhead -- Yup, I ride in a skirt most of the time, even when going very fast : ) That is why all of my saddles are "S" versions.

Alicestrong -- What do you think of your Pro S? I find it more attractive than the B17 S, but what are the benefits? Brooks makes so many beautiful saddles, it is really unfair. There's the Green B17 Special, and the Red Team Pro Boston Special, and the Mustard Swift NACCC Boston Special... Right, I better close that browser window now!

what site do you see all these models on? I never knew there were so many..

what site do you see all these models on? I never knew there were so many..

open at your own risk:

http://www.brooksengland.com/en/Shop_Saddles.aspx
(check out the all three standard sections, plus the Editions section)

The bike is quite upright with those bars. The bar/saddle combination really work well togethor. Peugeot had e x

eous

I would base it on the quality of the road surfaces you anticipate riding the bike on. If there is bad pavement and potholes, I'd go with a sprung saddle. Otherwise, unsprung.

CravenMoarhead -- Yup, I ride in a skirt most of the time, even when going very fast : ) That is why all of my saddles are "S" versions.

Alicestrong -- What do you think of your Pro S? I find it more attractive than the B17 S, but what are the benefits? Brooks makes so many beautiful saddles, it is really unfair. There's the Green B17 Special, and the Red Team Pro Boston Special, and the Mustard Swift NACCC Boston Special... Right, I better close that browser window now!

I don't ride a B17 so I can't really compare the two directly, oh and saddles are such a personal thing. I like the way the Pro looks especially the oversized rivets. You should try it and see what you think. Mine came "Pre-Softened" but I'm not too sure that makes much difference. Both my Brooks were comfy from the git-go they just seem to suit me.

Pre-softened? Didn't even know that was possible. I prefer to be the one to soften mine : ) Yes, those oversized rivets on the Pro are nice!...

Will have to spend half a day harassing Harris Cyclery and rummaging through them all... most likely just to end up buying the Flyer... For now.

That would be a practical and versatile choice. They are great saddles.

I've got the Flyer on my Bridgestone RB-T, and like it a lot! The photos in the link in my sig are with drop bars. Right now, I have on a set of Nitto Albatross, but have a mustache bar on its way. Aside from the weight, the Flyer is just a B-17. Only negatives are the cost, height, if your seat post is near the bottom limit, and difficulty in finding a saddlebag that fits OK. I've solved the later by getting an Acorn 2-strap roll bag for my tools, and I remounted my rear rack and hang one of my Jandd Mini-Mountain panniers on it when I want to haul anything.

If deciding between the B17 and the Flyer wasn't difficult enough in itself, consider the S vs standard choice...

One issue that has not been brought up is the width of the B17/Flyer compared to the B17/Flyer S versions. In addition to being slightly shorter in the nose, these S saddles are a few millimeters (7mm) wider in the seat area. That could well matter.

On the other hand, the longer saddle nose is advantageous to stability for both men and women not wearing skirts. Is the extra width worth losing the nose part (but gaining skirt compatibility?)

MDI: the S difference gets even more confusing the more I look into it. Notice that not all S models are wider than their non-S counterparts, only some! I see no rhyme or reason to it actually. I've also just noticed that the Flyer (including the Flyer S) is narrower than the B72. This makes sense of course, since the Flyer is the same width as the B17, but it just had not occured to me before. So I wonder if the B72 would be a better choice if I am concerned about width. What do you think about the width of your Flyer in comparison to your other saddles?

smorris: That is a nice set-up; great photos. I really like the look and versatility of those Acorn bags, as well as the pricing; I wonder how long the wait is at the moment. I am surprised to hear that you are replacing Albatros bars with Mustache bars; usually it is the other way around. Did you not find the Albatros comfortable?