Touring - Bike choices

This is not a "which tourer should I buy" thread (I'd probably buy a used Trek 520 on ebay were that the case).

I'm planning a 3 week tour in Europe, taking in as much of France and french Switzerland as possible. Probably hostelling for the most part, don't think I'll bother with camping (though will have bivvy bag for emergencies). Route planning and supplies are in the works, but the reason for this thread is that I'm wondering what to do regarding bikes.

I just recently bought an '04 Trek 4300 MTB, which I've been using for commuting, training and some light XC in the last 2 months. I have smooth slicks on it for road use. When I bought the bike it never crossed my mind that I'd consider bike touring (the bug has bitten :)) so I'm in two minds (or 3!) as to what do. This is bearing in mind that I don't have a lot of money

The options I'm considering:

- buy a tour bike
- rent a tour bike in Europe
- convert and use my 4300

I'm not currently onsidering buying a new tourer as costs are too prohibitive (but if you want to give me a new T2000 for xmas that's just fine). I think my entire budget for the trip is about 1200$ so I need to stretch it.

Exploring the rent a tour bike option first, I looked at the costs involved, and it'd cost me about 200$ to rent a bike for that length. I don't consider that great value, when including the fact that it's hard to find a bike thats suitable, and that 200$ would go a fair way towards buying a bike or converting my current one.

Okay, so looking at buying a tourer, e.g. used a 520, or a used rental from LBS, etc... It's still quite expensive. I'd be likely to buy the cheapest, oldest tourer I could find. Selling it afterwards to recoup costs is always an option. I'll have to think about this option, but I want to find out how possible the other option is.

Converting and using my 4300. I already use this on the road 95% of the time. I'm happy with the ride, and familiar with it. It already has my computer mounted :) What changes would I make?

- Drops:

I've heard of it being done, and I'd really love to put drops on my MTB. Call me whatever you like, but it sounds good to me. Issues: fitting for the stem and shifters (I'd like to leave the current ones on there). I've seen some oversize drop bars on pricepoint, they might work. I have googled this, and looked back through the forum archives, but haven't seen much on the subject - can anyone provide more info? Particularly interested in anything about putting my Alivio shifter/brake (all-in-one) set on the top of the drops.

- Front fork:

I might swap out the suspension for a rigid, again depending on cost. I might even be able to get a loan of a fork from a (really good!) friend :) Mind you, even if I couldn't swap it, road riding with the suspension tightened is not bad at all, I can only imagine it being an issue on serious climbs, but I'm not going to be doing loaded climbs *that* fast :)

- Rear rack and panniers

Serious issue: I don't know if my 4300 will take a rear rack - does anyone out there know? I know it probably should do, but I'm not 100% certain looking at the frame mountings.


On the positive side, MTBs have a lot of features in common with tourers: less aggressive ride position, stronger wheels, stronger frame, similar gearing. The downsides would be the smaller wheels and the fact that they're not normally setup for touring.

Please give me your suggestions and comments. I've thought a bit about the issues, but I've only lately gotten into biking so I'm still quite inexperienced and sure that I've missed a few things, the knowledge and expertise of the posters here is welcomed.

Thanks,
Al.

The bike is quite OK for a short first tour.
MTB wheels are not an issue for touring. They are as good as 700c, and the wheel of choice for expedition bikes.
You should have threaded eyelets for a rear luggage rack. The one on the Trek website does. You only need rear luggage on a hostel tour.
You may want to add toe clips, some bar-ends or a small aerobar. If you are used to the upright position, then stick with it, but you can adapt your bike with a lower or longer stem.
Fitting drops is not really cost effective.
A fixed fork will loose some weight, and simplify your bike, both are recomeded for touring. I have done plenty of technical off-road riding on steel fixed forks.

Hi Michael, thanks for your comments.

I didn't know exactly how much of an issue the wheel size would be, that's reassuring. Yeah, I've been planning rear luggage only. As to positioning, I've got the stem reversed upside down, so there's actually a negative rise - maybe losing 2.5-3". Added to that, I've removed the spacers Trek installed under the stem, losing another 1.5" - so I ride pretty aggressively even when commuting.

Actually I've been thinking of both bar ends and swapping a flat bar for my riser bar. I'd love to go the drops route, but don't really see that happening, and I'd probably buy a road bike in the long run rather than mess about too much. And hey, that aerobar idea is good... :)

For pedals, I've got these cheap wellgo spds (http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/13099-240_WEL804-3-Parts-65-Pedals/Wellgo-WPD-801-Mountain-Pedals.htm) on there, and I'm very happy with them (though they are my first clipless admittedly). Use them with Specialized Rockhopper mountain shoes (great summer shoes).

Ok, I'm gonna go look at forks...

Hi Al,
I am actually using a Gary Fisher MTB as a touring bike. I do prefer MTB over touring bike for few reasons. First, strong frame. Second, MTB will give you more climbing power than a touring bike. Even if they both have the same gear ratio, the smallest diameter wheel of the MTB will give you less top speed but more climbing power. The 26 are for the same reason stronger. Also, 26 inches tire and tube are sold all over the world. 700 are sometime a bit difficult to find in remote village or small town. I am running on 1.5 inche slick tire. In my opinion the best is Schallbe Marathon. But they are a bit expensive. Try to install something that you can inflate to at least 80 psi to minimize rolling resistance.

I have setup my bike with straight bar. I tough going to drop but change my mind. I believe the straight bar give me more control on dirt road or small path that I would like to investigate. My bar is setup at the same height that my seat. It is a more relax position for the neck for long day. Don't forget that a loaded bike is not a race bike and speed is not anymore the main factor when traveling. The important factor is comfort if you want the ride to be fun. Also, a more upright position give you a better view of the country.
With all the bag attached to your bike the wind resistance is already high so sitting more straight or lower is nor a big issue. Installing a small aerobar as mentionned by MichaelW might be an interesting compromise for windy day.

I have replace my suspension fork with a steel one. The fixed one is lighter, and I got rid of the pumping effect on climbing. For my usage the suspension was totally useless. Be carefull to find a fork that will not change too much the geometry of your bike. And look for one that will have eyelet to install fender and lowrider front rack.

My bike is setup with both front and rear rack (panier). The front is a low rider with a normal rack install on top of it. So, I can put the heavy stuff on the low rider and carry a bit of light stuff on the top one. The rear rack has a third loop that prevent the larger rear bag to rub on the wheel. One important point here is heel clearance. MTB have small wheel and short chainstay. This might create a problem of interference between your heel and the rear bag. On my bike I had to make a small extention that move my rear panier about an inche to the back.

Tonight I will try to post a picture of my bike so you can have a look at my setup.

Have a nice day,
Michel

Hey Michel,

I'm currently running on these slicks (http://www.wiggle.co.uk/?ProductID=5360008376), Continental Sport Contact (1.3"s). I can get quite a high pressure in there, so don't intend changing them. Rigid fork does seem a necessity, I'll look into this at my LBS this week (along with panniers, rack, etc). I'd love to see your setup.

Francais, oui?

Cheers,
Al.

if you're happy with your mtb, then stick with it. i just finished a 1500-mile/6 week tour on an old
schwinn mtb frame with upgraded components. comfort factor is much higher on dirt roads, compared
to 700c road tourer.

your lbs probably has a nos steel fork lying around you can get cheap - <$10. something switched
out when a new buyer upgraded to suspension. if lucky, you'll find one with lowrider braze-ons.

you can find brahma/zoom bars on ebay for under $10. basically a flat bar with integrated bar-ends
and a very slight pullback.

if your frame does not have eyelets, or chainstays too short for proper heel clearance, you could
pull a bob trailer. do away with racks and panniers altogether. boxed up, this would be your second
piece of luggage. you can find one used for $150-175.

m

Your most expensive part of the conversion will be drop bars as you would need road levers and shifters as well. You must also consider the stem. Converting to drop bars on Mtb's almost always require a raised & a much shorter stem. Therefore, if you are considering going rigid, leave plenty of steerer tube length so your stem height can be dialed in.

Also, unlike old mtb frames, today's mtb frames have much shorter wheelbases which may cause heel clearance problems so take that into consideration before equipping your bike with panniers.

Hi Al, Oui, je suis français. De Montreal, Quebec. Et toi?

Going back to touring bike. Here is few picture of my bike. They do not fit all in the same post because of 100kb limitation. I will try posting all of them in 3 following post.

So here is the first that show you the entire bike.

Michel

Hi Al, here is the second one. here is a picture of the front rack. If you look carefully you will see that the low rider is also attached to the brake stud. This to prevent the low rider from sliding down in case the clips slip on the fork. I already have use that kind of setup on a suspension fork with success.

Michel

Hi again, here is the last one. It is a pic of the rear rack. here you see the extention that give me more heel clearance. It is 2 piece of 1/4 inche thick aluminium painted black. If you look at the rack you will see the third loop that prevent bag to rub against the wheel. At the front of the rack, the 2 flatbar that attach to the bike are in X to give more lateral rigidity.

Hope all this will help you. If you have any question just let me know. I will be back tomorrow.

Michel

Alrocket,

For a 3-week light tour, the bike you have should be fine. You don't need to shell out $ for seperate new or used bike for that kind of tour.

Question on the fork: is mixing a steel fork with AL frame ok? What issues are involved?

Glad to hear people think the 4300 is up to the task, didn't relish splashing out on new bike :)

Question on the fork: is mixing a steel fork with AL frame ok? What issues are involved?


Absolutely no problem. That's done all the time..... take a look at road bikes for instance..... alu road frames spec'd with steel or carbon forks, although carbon seems to be more popular these days. My alu Kona mtb is setup with a rigid Kona steel fork and am very happy with its setup. Rigid steel fork is the way to go, IMO...

....But there are steel forks and steel forks. The Kona Project forks are highly rated. A "Hi tensile" steel fork from a junk bike will be crude and heavy..
Touring bike forks are strong, but have a lot of spring, so dont stress your hands too much. Junk MTB forks are massively stiff, with no give or spring, and can be very harsh.

Good point MichaelW... I will call into my 2 LBSs and have a chat about what's available.

onroule - je suis irlandais. J'attends avec interet d'aller en France. Peut-etre Quebec le fois prochaine (yeah I know my french sucks). Your pictures are very useful, it's nice to see a good setup like that. How did to make the adjustments e.g. for heel clearance - did you do all the work yourself, or buy the extension kit off the shelf?

I did install a steel fork on mine. It is just perfect. I did the extention for the rear rack myself. Cut out from an aluminium plate with a jig saw. It is a bit of work but was easy to do. To figure that out I put my bag on the rear rack and clipped one shoe on the pedal. It was easy to figured out how much I needed to move the rack to the rear.

You french is quite good. I am sure you will have a nice trip in France. Quebec is nice too. But we do not have the Alpes. I have read a bit on touring in Ireland. It is a very nice country. Hopefully, I will get there someday.

Bye,
Michel

I called in to my LBS yesterday. Aside: these are a small family outfit, who happen to be Trek dealers - I saw the 4300 in there when I was looking to buy, but I actually bought it at another (bigger) shop which was 12% cheaper. I did feel a little guilty about not staying local. Anyways...

I called in yesterday, with my mtb in tow, looking at racks and panniers. They had a very limited selection - 2 of each. The racks were a cheap generic rack, or a Trek Back Rack 1. I dismissed the cheap noname rack because it looked like it wouldn't hold a feather.

The Trek was 30 euros (~37 USD). Obviously the Trek fittings will work great with my bike. Apparently there's extenders as part of the installation kit, so I think that might give me enough heel clearance. If I choose to go with this one I'll put whatever panniers I get onto the rack and see if it fits - i.e. if I buy local, I can guarantee that it'll fit, or I just won't buy it. Anyone have experience with the "Trek Back Rack"? I had a quick search here and on google, didn't find much mention of it.

They showed me 2 panniers, again one was cheap noname, double sided, no top pouch. It looked cheaply made. The other set was a little better, "KF Explorer", it had the 2 sides and a top pouch (forgive the incorrect terminology). I believe it was the PB660BK shown here (ttp://www.cyclesmart.co.uk/shop/index.php/product/bags/kfexplorer/). Claimed to be either "water resistant" or "splash proof", can't remember which - what stuck in my mind was that they were not truely waterproof. I don't know what size it is, and I would prefer to go tour with rear-panniers only if possible. Item cost was 45 euros (~55 USD).

I'm wondering if both of these items are good enough to do what I want to do, or if I need to up my budget on one or the other (upgrading the panniers seems to be a prime candidate to me, maybe to something slightly bigger, and of better build quality. Any suggestions are welcome.

If the Trek racks for sale in Dublin are the same as those in the US, they aren't very good. One came with my Trek 520. It wasn't very sturdy looking at all. I transferred it to my commuting bike and barely used it. It still broke!

Based on comments I've seen, people who buy the 520 touring bike don't like the rack. Some like it, but many do not.

I'd look around for something stronger. I use the Jannd Expedition rack on my 520.

Blackburn racks are also good.

I guess I need to shop around a bit more so!

They're pricing a new rigid steel fork from the Trek dealer for me - they reckon it'd be around 40 euros (50USD). It's a little more than buying 2nd hand etc, but might be worth it. I'll see how that goes.

One worrying thing when I was in the shop - their mechanic walked by my bike and pointed out that my flipped (inverted) stem was "wrong" - he didn't understand why someone would want to do that purposely. The sales lady thought it was mad that someone would modify a bike like that. Think I will stick to my intuition/1st impression and pick another LBS.

for racks, you can't go wrong with blackburn. great warranty. i have bb's on all
my bikes. only broke one (lowrider), got a no-cost exchange at an lbs in oz.

panniers are not waterproof (ortlieb maybe, but i don't beleive they have internal
pockets), only water-resistant. you'll pack all your items in plastic bags anyway.

cannondale overland are very good quality, internal frame, plenty of pockets, one
of which is a small zip-off fanny-pack. rear pocket is sized to hold a one-liter
fuel bottle or rolled-up rain suit.

you can usually find these lightly used at reasonable cost on ebay.

In my other LBS today - they had 2 sided "Creek to Peak" panniers, which looked pretty good. I haven't found any info online about these guys. They come in 2 versions - 36 litre and 48 litre, that's 54 and 60 euros respectively (62USD/70USD roughly). They looked pretty good, and have the built in rain covers (bright red for visibility).

Also, I had a look at the racks on their Claud Butlers, all of which are the same. Here's (http://www.wheel2wheel4bikes.com/products.php?plid=m1b4s18p440) a pic of their Odyssey with this rack. It says on it that it's max 25kg (which doesn't sound great to me), but it does have 3 stays, and is completely extensible which is a real bonus. I asked him to price one for me, see how it goes. Is 25kg too little for a rack?

I'll have a look on ebay and online as saddlesores recommends, see if I can do better than LBS :)

I took an 04 Trek1000c to Europe this past summer for 2 months of riding
France, Germany, Belgium. Netherlands, Czech Republic, Austria, Italy and back to Paris.
Did no modifications on it at all. Worked perfectly, one flat first ride in Paris
Had 2 rear panniers held about 30# total all I needed for 2 months, no camping, bnbs and rooms for rent for nite.
In Berlin I bought racks and panniers for front,cheaper than in US but fine for my future use, I.E. camping in US next spring,and later to Europe for 4 months
Saw a wide variety of bikes being used there and all seem to be working well for riders. Times I thought perhaps I had paid to much for a bike till others told me how fine it looked

Very late update: here's my Trek 4300 and my cousin's Raleigh P3000 loaded, in France Sept '04:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8146/bikesloaded6gf.th.jpg (http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bikesloaded6gf.jpg)

And the good news is that I'm doing a tour in the Loire again this year :)