Classic & Vintage - Were all Campagnolo Record hubs Italian threaded?

I have a Campy Record low flange 126mm road hub that I'm guessing is from the early to mid 80's. There is currently a Regina Extra "America" freewheel installed. Is there any way to tell what thread pattern this hub has without removing the freewheel? Can I assume Campy used Italian thread pattern or were they also available with English or French threads?

Campy made all types of threading for their hubs

campy record hubs were available in italian, english and french threading

Thanks. Any way to tell which it is without a thread gauge or trying to screw on various type freewheels?

126mm OLD is pretty safely into the standardized English thread era though

126mm OLD is pretty safely into the standardized English thread era though

I don't think this is correct. 126mm spacing started to become common in the mid-to-late 1970's. Campagnolo was still making Italian threaded stuff into the 1990's, AFAIK. I would bet that the vast majority of Italian bikes built in the 80's were 126mm and used Italian threading. Campagnolo seems to have been late to fully adopt the ISO standard (which was more or less the old British spec.) That said, you can interchange British and Italian freewheels, because the difference in the threading only concerns the pitch, but you shouldn't expect to do a lot of switching back and forth.

I don't think this is correct. 126mm spacing started to become common in the mid-to-late 1970's. Campagnolo was still making Italian threaded stuff into the 1990's, AFAIK. I would bet that the vast majority of Italian bikes built in the 80's were 126mm and used Italian threading. Campagnolo seems to have been late to fully adopt the ISO standard (which was more or less the old British spec.) That said, you can interchange British and Italian freewheels, because the difference in the threading only concerns the pitch, but you shouldn't expect to do a lot of switching back and forth.

I advise everybody to listen to Picchio instead of me whenever we disagree about something.

But most Italian bikes in the 80's were sold as framesets and built up by local shops with whatever the client wanted and the shop stocked so the manufacturers had no say in what hubs got used. Ten Speed Drive was an exception that sold a lot of complete bikes and I don't remember ever seeing one that used a hub with Italian FW threads.

I only mention any of this in case Palladio finds an English FW on CL he wants to buy; he's unlikely to be wasting his money. But his question was "is there a way to tell without taking off the currently installed freewheel" and I think the answer is "no".

I advise everybody to listen to Picchio instead of me whenever we disagree about something.

But most Italian bikes in the 80's were sold as framesets and built up by local shops with whatever the client wanted and the shop stocked so the manufacturers had no say in what hubs got used. Ten Speed Drive was an exception that sold a lot of complete bikes and I don't remember ever seeing one that used a hub with Italian FW threads.

I was referring to complete bikes and not built-up framesets, so I should have been more specific - I'm sure you're right about the way the Italian frames came in. That was not a good way to try to make my point. But there were plenty of Italian threaded hubs being made in the 80's, AFAIK, as well as headsets, bottom brackets, etc. (surely those Italian frames took Italian headsets and BB's). When you use a term like "standardized English thread era" it implies more than LBS preference, IMO. It implies a level of standardization that wasn't the case in the 80's - or certainly the latter half of the 70's when 126mm OLD became common. So I would caution the OP against making the assumption you suggest in your earlier post.

I only mention any of this in case Palladio finds an English FW on CL he wants to buy; he's unlikely to be wasting his money.

Especially since as I mentioned earlier it work likely work fine on an Italian hub. I'm not suggesting that acting on an incorrect assumption about the threading is going to lead to any serious consequences. Unless the freewheel he buys is French.

Newer Campagnolo hubs are marked with the thread size. Older hubs have one groove cut in the flange adjacent to the freewheel thread, indicating English freewheel threads, or no groove, indicating French or Italian threads. So no, you can't tell, unless you remove the freewheel.

As previously suggested, English freewheels will fit on Italian threaded hubs and vice-versa but with some damage to the threads, so it not adivisable to switch back and forth, especially if you are strong rider.

When you use a term like "standardized English thread era" it implies more than LBS preference, IMO. It implies a level of standardization that wasn't the case in the 80's - or certainly the latter half of the 70's when 126mm OLD became common. So I would caution the OP against making the assumption you suggest in your earlier post.


I only meant standardized English freewheel threads (not BBs or headsets). Maybe it was later than I remember but well before the advent of cassettes, English threaded freewheels seemed to have won the war of popularity.

I only meant standardized English freewheel threads (not BBs or headsets). Maybe it was later than I remember but well before the advent of cassettes, English threaded freewheels seemed to have won the war of popularity.

OK, and not to prolong this, but again, "standardization" implies something beyond "popularity." I'm pretty sure, in any case, that the war wasn't won before 126mm became common.

Great, thanks for all the helpful information. This bike was completely Italian in build (a Marnati with all Campy and the rest Italian as well) so who knows. I was asking because it seems a lot easier to find an English threaded freewheel than an Italian one.

If it is Italian and I switch to English, will it be OK if I just stick to English threaded from here on out if I want to switch again? I don't intend on changing freewheels often, but may want to at some point.

If it is Italian and I switch to English, will it be OK if I just stick to English threaded from here on out if I want to switch again? I don't intend on changing freewheels often, but may want to at some point.

If I understand you correctly, yes, you'll be OK - just don't keep switching between English and Italian.

Italian hub thread = 35mm x 24 TPI (1.378" x 1.058mm)

English hub thread = 1.370" x 24 TPI (34.80mm x 1.058mm)

French hub thread = 34.7mm x 1mm (1.366" x 25.4 TPI)

So, an English threaded freewheel will be a tight fit on an Italian threaded hub and will damage the threads slightly by cutting off the tops of the threads approximately 0.1mm. An Italian threaded freewheel will be a loose fit on an English threaded hub and could potentially strip out under hard loading. Once you have changed to an English threaded freewheel you should continue to use English threaded freewheels. I recommend that the first time you install the freewheel, remove it once and clean out all the thread filings from the freewheel body and hub shell threads, then re-install with a light coating of grease.

A French threaded hub will ONLY work with a French threaded freewheel (vive la diferance)

Reference: Southerland's Handbook for Bicycle Mechanics.

You can screw an english threaded freewheel onto an italian hub, but it will deform the threads into english threads. Italian won't fit tightly anymore afterwards.

I am pretty sure my 1980 Bianchi's original rear wheel (Ofmega hub and 6-speed Regina America freewheel) is Italian-threaded, because an English/ISO freewheel feels just a bit snug as I try to spin it on.

Different threads? I didn't know these things had different threads. Everything is always more complicated than it should be.

What is the likely thread for a suntour seven speed freewheel? Circa 1987.

It is on a mavic 500 hub, but in theory it originally came on a suntour sprint hub.

Jared

Italian hub thread = 35mm x 24 TPI (1.378" x 1.058mm)

English hub thread = 1.370" x 24 TPI (34.80mm x 1.058mm)

French hub thread = 34.7mm x 1mm (1.366" x 25.4 TPI)

So, an English threaded freewheel will be a tight fit on an Italian threaded hub and will damage the threads slightly by cutting off the tops of the threads approximately 0.1mm. An Italian threaded freewheel will be a loose fit on an English threaded hub and could potentially strip out under hard loading. Once you have changed to an English threaded freewheel you should continue to use English threaded freewheels. I recommend that the first time you install the freewheel, remove it once and clean out all the thread filings from the freewheel body and hub shell threads, then re-install with a light coating of grease.

A French threaded hub will ONLY work with a French threaded freewheel (vive la diferance)

Reference: Southerland's Handbook for Bicycle Mechanics.

With this information and a dial or digital caliper, you can see what threading you have by measuring the diameter across the freewheel threads.

"... an English threaded freewheel will be a tight fit on an Italian threaded hub and will damage the threads slightly by cutting off the tops of the threads approximately 0.1mm. An Italian threaded freewheel will be a loose fit on an English threaded hub and could potentially strip out under hard loading. Once you have changed to an English threaded freewheel you should continue to use English threaded freewheels. ..."

Good advice... however, there is Right and there is Realistic. Has anyone ever actually encountered a problem with switching back and forth between Italian and BSC freewheels? I would imagine that 99% of all older bikes may have been alternately fitted with the wrong freewheels from time to time during their many years on the road. And, I'm sure there were also thousands of poorly trained young bike shop mechanics who never even knew there was a difference and simply assumed they should apply more torque to effect a fit when they encountered a tight mis-match. :twitchy:

Regarding the highlighted phrase above, I would think it very difficult to strip out hub under however hard a pedaling load imposed. Since the freewheel body is simply stopped at the end of the threaded portion of the hub when it finally butts up against the solid flat alloy "wall" of the hub shell, I can't imagine that further "tightening" of the freewheel during pedaling would likely permit rocking it to the point that it would strip the threads of a hub. --- I may be wrong, but I've just never seen it. :rolleyes:

Many years ago, we often struggled with customers' stuck French freewheels which had been forced onto Italian or BSC threaded hubs. They had caused damaged to a few of the outer threads before they were just hopelessly jammed part way onto the hub. But, even these instances never developed serious problems for the hubs, it simply made catching the correct threads of the hub more difficult. In fact, such noticeably thread damaged hubs only presented a minor nuisance when later installing a correct freewheel.

The thread-per-inch count of Italian and BSC hubs is the same, even if the diameter and also the thread angle differs slightly. The Italian thread angle [the slope of the thread walls] is 55 degrees rather than 60 degrees as with BSC, US and even standard Metric systems. So, yes, there is indeed some minute damage done to the hub threads with an incorrect match.

But, I think that we tend to lose sight of the simple fact that most components on bicycles have a comparatively sloppy fit and accept a broad tolerance range. Bikes are really not precision machines and are not subjected to extraordinary work loads or the tremendous speeds of Formula-1 racing engines. If they were, most Schwinns - or ANY production bikes - would never make it out of a showroom or would quickly seize up on the road. :o

If you get the freewheel off, more than likely you will see something like this so you will know for sure:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm26/mparker326/IMG_2635.jpg

With this information and a dial or digital caliper, you can see what threading you have by measuring the diameter across the freewheel threads.

If you are sure what the OD of each is -- I think that the thread spec is for the mid-line of the teeth.


Italian hub thread = 35mm x 24 TPI (1.378" x 1.058mm)
English hub thread = 1.370" x 24 TPI (34.80mm x 1.058mm)
French hub thread = 34.7mm x 1mm (1.366" x 25.4 TPI)


Another difference between English and Italian is that the former has threads cut at 60 degree angle, while the latter has 'em at 55 degrees -- what's called a "class B" fit. Not that one shouldn't use English on Italian, but another reason (in addition to slightly different diameter) that one shouldn't go back and forth repeatedly.

If you are sure what the OD of each is -- I think that the thread spec is for the mid-line of the teeth.

Another difference between English and Italian is that the former has threads cut at 60 degree angle, while the latter has 'em at 55 degrees -- what's called a "class B" fit. Not that one shouldn't use English on Italian, but another reason (in addition to slightly different diameter) that one shouldn't go back and forth repeatedly.

On a 1.370 x 24 thread, the 1.370 refers to the nominal diameter of the thread. This is what the outer diameter would be if the thread were cut (or formed) perfectly. The actual measured diameter is often slightly undersize. The diameter where the distance across the teeth equals the distance between the teeth is refered to as the pitch diameter.

The thread angle has nothing to do with the class of fit. Thread fits are defined by numbers, with 1 being loose, 2 being standard and 3 being precision. A and B are usually suffices to the class of fit but refer to the sex of the threads, with A being external/male and B being internal/female.

As for whether an Italian-English freewheel-hub combination will fail, I will say yes and I won't even limit it to several swaps. I'd say it could fail under a very strong rider, given that seen I've cases of English-English failure when the threads were simply out-of-tolerance and not cross-threaded.

Dropouts hangers are a similar situation. The Italians use 10mm x 24 TPI while everyone else uses 10mm x 1mm. It close but not the same. I've seen actual cases where the hanger threads have failed because riders have swapped back and forth beteween derailleurs with different hanger bolt threads. If it can happen on hangers, it could certainly happen on hubs.

Thanks. Any way to tell which it is without a thread gauge or trying to screw on various type freewheels?

Screw on a bb lockring sized for the same standard. British threaded bb lockrings fit British threaded hubs, etc. Lots less hassle than messing around with a freewheel.

With this information and a dial or digital caliper, you can see what threading you have by measuring the diameter across the freewheel threads.

It is pretty tough to distinguish between 35.0mm and 34.8mm.

If you get the freewheel off, more than likely you will see something like this so you will know for sure:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm26/mparker326/IMG_2635.jpg
Only on newer (after ~1980) hubs. Earlier hubs were marked with a single groove if they were English thread:
http://os2.dhs.org/~john/groove.jpg
French and Italian were both unmarked; you had to try them to determine the threading.

As has been pointed out before (the 15th and 19th posts in this thread), the thread dimensions have been given, therefore one can find out by measuring. Trying it out can result in stripping the thread. THAT is an unrecoverable error.

Pure experimentation is great -- if you can always afford your mistakes.