Professional Cycling For the Fans - Will Contador be as great / famous as Lance.

how far do you go back?

How about pantani and indurain?

Ed rader

+1

how far do you go back?

how about pantani and indurain?

ed rader

Those guys are encient history. The world was totally different when they rode. (At least that is what the 99ers claim when the topic of Lance never winning a double comes up).

Also, those stuck back in the glory years of Eddy, might want to consider that prior to Jackie Robinson, major league baseball was made up only of white players. Eddy never had to race against the likes of Lemond or Armstrong.

No but he did compete against the likes of Zoetemelk, Van Impe, Poulidor and Thevenet.

It's common for people to think that Merckx road in a vacuum and that today's riders are heads and tails superior to riders of his era. Was Lemond a better rider than Poulidor? In my opinion no. Is Armstrong a superior rider to Merckx? Probably not.

Imagine how many TDFs Merckx could have won if that was the only race he focused on. Think about it. If he hadn't damaged his back in a track accident (1969) and rode in pain the rest of his career, going so far as to say that he was never the same rider after that accident (!). If he hadn't been busy winning five Giros, seven Milan San Remos, five LBLs and three Paris Roubaixs? How many TDFs could he have won?

I like Lance a lot he's a legend in cycling, but realize that only Merckx and Roche have won the triple Crown. (TDF+Giro+WC)

Merckx won everywhere and won almost every major except Paris-Tours. The dude won freakin green jerseys in the TDF while winning the GC. (Yes I get that there are specialized sprinters etc so it would be much more difficult.)

I mean 11 top 8 finishes at Paris Roubaix in a row! That's flat out crazy. That's like finishing top 8 in Daytona 500 11 yers in a row.




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Those guys are encient history. The world was totally different when they rode. (At least that is what the 99ers claim when the topic of Lance never winning a double comes up).

Indurain had to be really extra careful as to avoid riding off the edge of the world.

I like Lance a lot he's a legend in cycling, but realize that only Merckx and Roche have won the triple Crown. (TDF+Giro+WC)
Merckx won everywhere and won almost every major except Paris-Tours. The dude won freakin green jerseys in the TDF while winning the GC. (Yes I get that there are specialized sprinters etc so it would be much more difficult.)

I mean 11 top 8 finishes at Paris Roubaix in a row! That's flat out crazy. That's like finishing top 8 in Daytona 500 11 yers in a row.




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we'll never know but i believe contador would have equalled that feat last year.

ed rader

we'll never know but i believe contador would have equalled that feat last year.

ed rader

Before you know it, the AC fanboys will have him running for Pope. AC couldn't hold Eddy's water bottle. Until he wins the triple crown in one year it will all be speculation. I guess is that he will never do it and that he will never win more than 3 TDF's even though he was gifted his first one.

Where is Basso, Mayo and even Ullrich who showed so much promise? Stuff happens all the time. Who would have guessed Lance would have won seven after he had cancer or after his first or after his second or even after his third? Look what happened to Tiger today. He couldn't even make the cut at that quaint little British Open.

I guess we should just mail in his nomination as the greatest cyclist ever!

Before you know it, the AC fanboys will have him running for Pope. AC couldn't hold Eddy's water bottle. Until he wins the triple crown in one year it will all be speculation. I guess is that he will never do it and that he will never win more than 3 TDF's even though he was gifted his first one.

Where is Basso, Mayo and even Ullrich who showed so much promise? Stuff happens all the time. Who would have guessed Lance would have won seven after he had cancer or after his first or after his second or even after his third? Look what happened to Tiger today. He couldn't even make the cut at that quaint little British Open.

I guess we should just mail in his nomination as the greatest cyclist ever!

you really like to twist the facts don't you? fact is that AC has won all three GTs that he has contested, two last year, and last year's tour was won by a guy who is a huge underdog this year.

put your fanboi-ism to the side and tell me that contador would not have been favored to win the TDF last year were he able to ride.

ed rader

you really like to twist the facts don't you? fact is that AC has won all three GTs that he has contested, two last year, and last year's tour was won by a guy who is a huge underdog this year.

put your fanboi-ism to the side and tell me that contador would not have been favored to win the TDF last year were he able to ride.

ed rader

You are the one twisting the facts, giving him a win because he wasn't there. Well then we could say Lance would be working on his 11th.

Favored to win vs. actually winning is a big difference ED.

And put away your AC fanboy glasses. Tell me Ed how many TDF's will your boy win during his career, 2, 3, 8 and how many times will he hit the trifecta?

You are the one twisting the facts, giving him a win because he wasn't there. Well then we could say Lance would be working on his 11th.

Favored to win vs. actually winning is a big difference ED.

And put away your AC fanboy glasses. Tell me Ed how many TDF's will your boy win during his career, 2, 3, 8 and how many times will he hit the trifecta?

what others GTs have lance won? AC has won all three....in a row. i can't tell you how many tours AC will win...he may never win any.

all i can do is make reasonable assumptions based on his past performance and his level of talent. you act like i'm saying something that's unique or not widely believed....like i'm pulling this stuff out of my ass or sumthin' :eek:.

ed rader

Same thing goes for the NBA being popular in China now because of Yao.
The NBA was very popular in China even before Yao.

I like Lance a lot he's a legend in cycling, but realize that only Merckx and Roche have won the triple Crown. (TDF+Giro+WC)

Merckx won everywhere and won almost every major except Paris-Tours. The dude won freakin green jerseys in the TDF while winning the GC. (Yes I get that there are specialized sprinters etc so it would be much more difficult.)

I mean 11 top 8 finishes at Paris Roubaix in a row! That's flat out crazy. That's like finishing top 8 in Daytona 500 11 yers in a row.

I

You might want to look at riders that have won PR and a Major Tour in the same year. Very rare, in fact since about 1910 only 2 riders have done it. Hinault and Merckx 3 times.

Years ago I made a list ot 20 jewls of cycling:
The 8 orthodox classics
The 9 Major Jersies of the 3 Tours
The Worlds
The season long championship
The Hour record.

You listed half of the jewels Eddy does not have. The other is the KOM in the Vuelta, though in his only entry into the Vuelts he missed that buy only a handfull of points.

we'll never know but i believe contador would have equalled that feat last year.

ed rader

That is a bit of a reach for a rider who has never finished in the top 5 of the Worlds. I rather like Contidor. He has a great chance to get to at least 3rd on hte all time list for Major Tour wins and it is not fluff to think he might make it all the way to the top of that list.

But saying he would have wehn 2 out of 3 are just might have is a lot of might haves.

If Contidor had the Giro (which he did) and the Worlds, then it is a valid point since he was excluded from the Tour.

That is a bit of a reach for a rider who has never finished in the top 5 of the Worlds. I rather like Contidor. He has a great chance to get to at least 3rd on hte all time list for Major Tour wins and it is not fluff to think he might make it all the way to the top of that list.

But saying he would have wehn 2 out of 3 are just might have is a lot of might haves.

If Contidor had the Giro (which he did) and the Worlds, then it is a valid point since he was excluded from the Tour.

i meant he would have won all three GTs last year.

ed rader

Who was the last man to beat Lance in the TDF? Does that answer your question?

Well which should I pick?

I'd go with Hermino Diaz Zabala, the rider in 35th place in the 1995 TDF. One spot ahead of Lance. Though one could go with the last rider to finish stage 6 (where Lance abandonded in 96), or perhaps the last placed rider on GC after state 6 or either of the last palced riders at teh end ot the TDF in 96.

Too bad Lance was not just a little faster in '95 if he was just a few places higher I could have said Johan Bruneel!

Oh and there are people on this Board who can tell you the first rider to Beat Merckx in the TDF, it was enough to gain that rider a bit of fame.

i meant he would have won all three GTs last year.

ed rader

About zero chance he will ever even ride all 3 Tours in one year, and even less that he would finish all 3. You have just lost a lot of credibility.

The chances of Alberto eclipsing LA's record are slim. As has already been pointed out, Lance concentrated his entire team's efforts towards that one goal each season. Any other wins were icing on their cake. But, with regard to Eddy Merckx: All though I was/am a fan of his, I am continually amazed that everyone overlooks the fact that he tested positive for banned substances whilst in competition on four occasions and spanning 8 critical years of his career.

But, with regard to Eddy Merckx: All though I was/am a fan of his, I am continually amazed that everyone overlooks the fact that he tested positive for banned substances whilst in competition on four occasions and spanning 8 critical years of his career.

*shrugs* Oh well. That's what cyclists do. It wasn't like he was competing against a clean field of riders.

Those guys are encient history. The world was totally different when they rode. (At least that is what the 99ers claim when the topic of Lance never winning a double comes up).
Not knowing what a double is doesn't mean I'm an idiot, it just means I'm still learning about cycling. Doesn't mean I can't like lance, the TdF, Kloden, Cav, Evans, and today's second place finisher, AT.


You guys need to stop being so elitist.

The chances of Alberto eclipsing LA's record are slim. As has already been pointed out, Lance concentrated his entire team's efforts towards that one goal each season. Any other wins were icing on their cake. But, with regard to Eddy Merckx: All though I was/am a fan of his, I am continually amazed that everyone overlooks the fact that he tested positive for banned substances whilst in competition on four occasions and spanning 8 critical years of his career.

Contoador has also been training specifically for the TDF only, look how he avoided the Giro. I wouldn't doubt AC would of been spanked by Menchov regardless.

I think it matters more on if AC has competition. LA was super strong and very focused, also lucky.

Who will be AC's Jan Ullrich?

The chances of Alberto eclipsing LA's record are slim. As has already been pointed out, Lance concentrated his entire team's efforts towards that one goal each season. Any other wins were icing on their cake. But, with regard to Eddy Merckx: All though I was/am a fan of his, I am continually amazed that everyone overlooks the fact that he tested positive for banned substances whilst in competition on four occasions and spanning 8 critical years of his career.

I will give Eddy the benefit of the doubt on drugs, because I have read the cases against him and it isn't great.
No doubt he is one of the greatest but in today's era of specialization, I don't think he could have won 45 percent of the races he entered in one year, if he were to be able to do it in today's era.

I think it matters more on if AC has competition. LA was super strong and very focused, also lucky.

Who will be AC's Jan Ullrich?

You cannot make the argument that Lance did it against of nobody's. Ullrich was picked to be the guy who was going to win the crown every year. The fact that he placed 1st once and 2nd 6 times is amazing and for him rather unlucky.
Armstrong has had the uncanny ability to not crash, get sick, or bonk too hard. I think his 2003 win up Luz Ardeden was one of the classic stages of all time.

Armstrong has had the uncanny ability to not crash, get sick, or bonk too hard.

+1

To ride that many tours and never have a serious crash, poorly timed mechanical or injury seems lucky. Yes, you make your own luck but he seems to have someone friendly to him watching his back.

Contoador has also been training specifically for the TDF only, look how he avoided the Giro. I wouldn't doubt AC would of been spanked by Menchov regardless.

We'll see if he continues with that next season. I suspect that may have had a lot to do with with the Bruyneel/Armstrong style of organizing and running the team. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that JB & LA looked at him as said, "if you want to be team leader for tdf, that will be your sole focus. Otherwise, it will be Lance, who is willing to do just that." Just suppositioin, but, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.


I think it matters more on if AC has competition. LA was super strong and very focused, also lucky.

Who will be AC's Jan Ullrich?

Aberto Contador, "Who will be my Katie Currik?"


I will give Eddy the benefit of the doubt on drugs, because I have read the cases against him and it isn't great.
No doubt he is one of the greatest but in today's era of specialization, I don't think he could have won 45 percent of the races he entered in one year, if he were to be able to do it in today's era.

There's little doubt, Eddy has admitted, "That, I can't deny. I was positive along with around 15 others. I was wrong to trust a doctor." He also went as far as to blame his doctor in another case, so that's reasonable damning on a second count.

The one thing that bugs me about the guy and deminishes his greatness in my eyes, is his approach to the issue. He wants them to retrospectively award him a win for a race held 30 years agon in which he tested positive for a banned substance that has since (2004) been removed from that list. I mean, come on, it was banned, you took it and got caught, end of discussion. What's the point, 30 years on? To add one more minor victory to already incredibly long list?


You cannot make the argument that Lance did it against of nobody's. Ullrich was picked to be the guy who was going to win the crown every year. The fact that he placed 1st once and 2nd 6 times is amazing and for him rather unlucky.
Armstrong has had the uncanny ability to not crash, get sick, or bonk too hard. I think his 2003 win up Luz Ardeden was one of the classic stages of all time.

That combination of things crashing, et al, is the amazing thing. Because, he has bonked, gone off-roading, etc., but has almost always managed to recover without serious loss. Where others have allowed themselves the excuse and given up.

Not knowing what a double is doesn't mean I'm an idiot, it just means I'm still learning about cycling. Doesn't mean I can't like lance, the TdF, Kloden, Cav, Evans, and today's second place finisher, AT.


You guys need to stop being so elitist.

You also ned to learn a liuttle history of this and other boards. I remember people calling Lance the Greatest Cyclist of all time when he had 4 TDF wins, as if he had eclipsed everyone else. In discussions that happened then and after 5, 6 and 7 TDF wins when doing a double came up Lances over the top fans would reply that things were totally different now! As if the world totally changed between 1998 and 1999. (Pantani won the Giro and the TDF in 1998).

BTW in my book if you like Kloden, Cav and Evans that puts you in an entirely different group that the Lance worshipers I take shots at.

A couple sites of interest are the cycling hall of fame and memorie-du-cyclisme. Google them, for the second you really want to get there through google and use the translate this page (unless you read french). Also a little trick I've found. Use google search and put in the names of several cyclists. Something like Merckx Coppi Gemondi. you then find pages devoted to cycling races, where if you put in the name of the race, especially if it the the Tour you get thousands of pages making money of this years Tour.

No but he did compete against the likes of Zoetemelk, Van Impe, Poulidor and Thevenet.

It's common for people to think that Merckx road in a vacuum and that today's riders are heads and tails superior to riders of his era. Was Lemond a better rider than Poulidor? In my opinion no. Is Armstrong a superior rider to Merckx? Probably not.

Imagine how many TDFs Merckx could have won if that was the only race he focused on. Think about it. If he hadn't damaged his back in a track accident (1969) and rode in pain the rest of his career, going so far as to say that he was never the same rider after that accident (!). If he hadn't been busy winning five Giros, seven Milan San Remos, five LBLs and three Paris Roubaixs? How many TDFs could he have won?

How about Gimondi? Poor guy, clearly one of the top 10 riders of all time based on results and totally forgotten. He is one of only 3 riders to win all 3 Grand Tours and the Worlds. All 3 also won Paris Roubaix.

You cannot make the argument that Lance did it against of nobody's. Ullrich was picked to be the guy who was going to win the crown every year. The fact that he placed 1st once and 2nd 6 times is amazing and for him rather unlucky.
Armstrong has had the uncanny ability to not crash, get sick, or bonk too hard. I think his 2003 win up Luz Ardeden was one of the classic stages of all time.

5 Seconds, only 3 of them against Lance.

And I totally agree that Lance is Great at limiting his loses. If Ulrich had done as well as Lances worst bonl of all time in 98 he would have one more TDF win. (My personal opinion is that Lance was so good at not showing when he was in trouble that he prevented loses, potentially large ones at leat a couple of times simply because no one was sure enough to attack).

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The one thing that bugs me about the guy and deminishes his greatness in my eyes, is his approach to the issue. He wants them to retrospectively award him a win for a race held 30 years agon in which he tested positive for a banned substance that has since (2004) been removed from that list. I mean, come on, it was banned, you took it and got caught, end of discussion. What's the point, 30 years on? To add one more minor victory to already incredibly long list?
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He wouldn't be The Cannibal otherwise, would he?

He wouldn't be The Cannibal otherwise, would he?

No, but that overly competative side of him, causes me to serious question how many times he cheated and didn't get caught?