Professional Cycling For the Fans - Will Contador be as great / famous as Lance.

Contador will probably win this tour, and probably more, so long as he has a lot of time on Lance before the last ITT and perhaps Ventoux. But will he ever be as big as Lance? Lance has eclipsed riders like Hinalt, Lemond, and basically all other famous TDF riders by winning 7 TDFs in a row.

Perhaps Contador will have to win eight to be as great as Lance, or 9 if Lance wins the tour this year. That would be an almost impossible feat I think. Contador is 26 now...so if Lance won this year, he would then have to win 8 more TDFS...so that's 8 more years(and it would have to be consecutive!)...and bam, he is already 34. Well that's not impossible since Lance has shown at 37 that he can still compete.

But will Contador have that kind of endurance, or will he fade like most riders do in his early thirties?

Lance has eclipsed riders like Hinalt, Lemond, and basically all other famous TDF riders by winning 7 TDFs in a row.

Perhaps Contador will have to win eight to be as great as Lance, or 9 if Lance wins the tour this year.
Trust me. Contador could win it 100 times and still not equal Lance.

In your universe.


But will Contador have that kind of endurance, or will he fade like most riders do in his early thirties?
I'm sure he's coming to realize the futility of his ambitions.

Bigger where? Safe to say that Contador is already bigger than Lance in Spain.

AC could end up with a GT career as impressive as anyone's in the history of the sport. Please note the use of the conditional; nothing is guaranteed. He's won all 3 already and it's safe to assume he'll continue to contest the TdF and the Vuelta in the future. Perhaps, he'll let the Giro go?

Even if he fulfills his ambitions he'll never match LA here in the States but cycling is a fringe sport here so I'm not sure he'll be all that upset.

But, I suspect you already know this..... ;)

Armstrong has not eclipsed other riders by winning 7 TDFs. No one other that Armstrong has tried to specialize in the TDF. Armstrong is the only rider who has taken this tack.

The current crop of professional riders are more specialized in their skills (climbers, sprinters, etc) than their predecessors but Armstrong has taken specialization to a new level (he's a specialist who specialized in one race) and that makes it hard to compare his accomplishments to other riders accomplishments.

We know he is one of the greats in cycling but how do you compare him to Merckx who raced other races in the season as well as the TDF or Contador who races in other races? Lance has done something wonderful; but by focusing on the one race he makes it impossible to compare what he's done to others who don't focus as such. This of course doesn't matter one bit to Armstrong but fans who want to make these comparisons are forced into conjecture territory.

who cares how many lance wins (outside america) there's more to bike racing than the tdf you know (oh sorry you didnt know that.)

greatness can be argued, but contador will never be as famous as Lance in terms of sheer numbers of people who recognize his name. in that game, lance has already far surpassed lemond, hinault, merckx, and anyone else's name you want to throw out there, because lance has managed to become immensely famous OFF his bike.

if you ask anyone who isn't a "biker," they probably have no idea who eddie is(outside of his home country), and even some friends of mine who do bike only recognize his name from his frames and don't know about all his victories.

Armstrong has not eclipsed other riders by winning 7 TDFs. No one other that Armstrong has tried to specialize in the TDF. Armstrong is the only rider who has taken this tack.

The current crop of professional riders are more specialized in their skills (climbers, sprinters, etc) than their predecessors but Armstrong has taken specialization to a new level (he's a specialist who specialized in one race) and that makes it hard to compare his accomplishments to other riders accomplishments.

We know he is one of the greats in cycling but how do you compare him to Merckx who raced other races in the season as well as the TDF or Contador who races in other races? Lance has done something wonderful; but by focusing on the one race he makes it impossible to compare what he's done to others who don't focus as such. This of course doesn't matter one bit to Armstrong but fans who want to make these comparisons are forced into conjecture territory.

This statement isn't really true. But he's the only one to do it very successfully. Jan & Cadel are two examples of riders that have tried & certainly raced well, but have not come close to Lance's success.

This statement isn't really true. But he's the only one to do it very successfully. Jan & Cadel are two examples of riders that have tried & certainly raced well, but have not come close to Lance's success.

and to a degree so did indurain, especially toward the end of his career.

ed rader

Bert needs to Twitter more.

And antagonize the French and Greg LeMond.

And nail Hannah Montana.

And run the London Marathon with special pacer Sebastian Coe.

Contador will probably win this tour, and probably more, so long as he has a lot of time on Lance before the last ITT and perhaps Ventoux. But will he ever be as big as Lance? Lance has eclipsed riders like Hinalt, Lemond, and basically all other famous TDF riders by winning 7 TDFs in a row.

Perhaps Contador will have to win eight to be as great as Lance, or 9 if Lance wins the tour this year. That would be an almost impossible feat I think. Contador is 26 now...so if Lance won this year, he would then have to win 8 more TDFS...so that's 8 more years(and it would have to be consecutive!)...and bam, he is already 34. Well that's not impossible since Lance has shown at 37 that he can still compete.

But will Contador have that kind of endurance, or will he fade like most riders do in his early thirties?

Contador's main challenge will be to find a team strong enough to support him. A number of great riders would have most likely had many more wins if they had been on a different team & with a different director. He's had the support of Bruyneel for the past two and a half years. For instance (only an example not speculation as to any team he may move to), if he had been on Silence Lotto this year, where would he be overall. He wouldn't have much chance of being on the podium despite how well he climbs. There's been much speculation as to him moving to Caisse D'epargne. If Bruyneel had let him go this year as he requested, he may have lost 1:29 in the TTT.

Bert needs to Twitter more.

And antagonize the French and Greg LeMond.

And nail Hannah Montana.

And run the London Marathon with special pacer Sebastian Coe.

This part is pretty easy to accomplish:p

Bigger where? Safe to say that Contador is already bigger than Lance in Spain.

AC could end up with a GT career as impressive as anyone's in the history of the sport. Please note the use of the conditional; nothing is guaranteed. He's won all 3 already and it's safe to assume he'll continue to contest the TdF and the Vuelta in the future. Perhaps, he'll let the Giro go?

Even if he fulfills his ambitions he'll never match LA here in the States but cycling is a fringe sport here so I'm not sure he'll be all that upset.

But, I suspect you already know this..... ;)

Walter, Texas by itself is almost 50% bigger that Spain. When you throw in the other 49 states in the United States I think it is safe to say that it is better to be bigger in the US than in Spain.

no.

Contrador will never be as famous as Lance, because he lacks charisma, and has not overcome something as big as life threatening disease.

Walter, Texas by itself is almost 50% bigger that Spain. When you throw in the other 49 states in the United States I think it is safe to say that it is better to be bigger in the US than in Spain.

This may be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on bikeforums.


(unless you're being cheeky, that is)

who cares how many lance wins (outside america) there's more to bike racing than the tdf you know (oh sorry you didnt know that.)

Worldwide, the tour de France is bike racing. Cycling enthusiasts might enjoy other races, but its TDF that really matters at the end of the day.

Walter, Texas by itself is almost 50% bigger that Spain. When you throw in the other 49 states in the United States I think it is safe to say that it is better to be bigger in the US than in Spain.

Since we're talking geography I'm sure you're aware that Contador is a Spaniard and, assumedly, pretty happy to be a popular and successful athlete in his homeland. Therefore, he may not agree with your statement. Unless he plans on moving to Texas anytime soon. Anything's possible.

Anyways, I was not trying to start a geography lesson; merely pointing out that there are areas where LA is not as big a deal as AC here in the present, regardless of what may occur.

You noted, I'm sure, that I stated that Contador can never match Armstrong here in the US.

Armstrong has not eclipsed other riders by winning 7 TDFs. No one other that Armstrong has tried to specialize in the TDF. Armstrong is the only rider who has taken this tack.

The current crop of professional riders are more specialized in their skills (climbers, sprinters, etc) than their predecessors but Armstrong has taken specialization to a new level (he's a specialist who specialized in one race) and that makes it hard to compare his accomplishments to other riders accomplishments.

We know he is one of the greats in cycling but how do you compare him to Merckx who raced other races in the season as well as the TDF or Contador who races in other races? Lance has done something wonderful; but by focusing on the one race he makes it impossible to compare what he's done to others who don't focus as such. This of course doesn't matter one bit to Armstrong but fans who want to make these comparisons are forced into conjecture territory.


Huh? Lance races (and has podiums) in many other races. Stage wins in multi-stage races have been removed.


1992 - Motorola
Fitchburg-Longsjo Classic (overall, 1 stage win)
2nd, Züri-Metzgete
1993 - Motorola
World Cycling Champion - UCI Road World Championships
US National Cycling Champion — CoreStates USPRO National Road Championships
Tour of America (overall)
Trofeo Laigueglia
Tour du Pont (2nd overall, 1 stage win)
Tour of Sweden (3rd overall, 1 stage win)
Thrift Drug Classic
Kmart West Virginia Classic (overall, 2 stage wins)
1994 - Motorola
Thrift Drug Classic
2nd, Liège-Bastogne-Liège
2nd, Clasica San Sebastian
1995 - Motorola
Clásica de San Sebastián
Tour du Pont (overall, mountains, 3 stage wins)
Kmart West Virginia Classic (overall, 2 stage wins)
Tour of America (overall)
1996 - Motorola
Tour du Pont (overall, 4 stage wins)
La Flèche Wallonne
2nd, Liège-Bastogne-Liège
2nd, Paris-Nice
1997 - Cofidis
Sprint 56K Criterium (Austin, TX)
1998 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Rheinland-Pfalz Rundfahrt (overall)
Tour de Luxembourg (overall, 1 stage win)
Cascade Cycling Classic
4th, Vuelta a España
1999 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
2nd, Amstel Gold Race
2000 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win)
GP des Nations
Grand Prix Eddy Merckx (with Viatcheslav Ekimov)
Bronze medal in the 2000 Summer Olympics Individual Time Trial, Men
2001 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
Tour de Suisse (overall, 2 stage wins)
2nd, Amstel Gold Race
2002 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (overall, Stage 6)
GP du Midi Libre (overall)
Profronde van Stiphout (post-Tour criterium)
2003 - US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
presented by Berry Floor
Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win, Team Time Trial)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (overall, Stage 3 ITT)
2004 - US Postal Service pro Cycling Team
presented by Berry Floor
Tour de France (overall, 5 stage wins, Team Time Trial)
Tour de Georgia (overall, 2 stage wins)
Profronde van Stiphout (post-Tour criterium)
2005 - Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win, Team Time Trial)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (points classification)
2008 - Lance Armstrong Foundation / Team Livestrong
Leadville Trail 100 Mountain Bike Race (2nd place)

Huh? Lance races (and has podiums) in many other races. Stage wins in multi-stage races have been removed.



many of the races he won were in preparation for the tour, and lance had never contested a GT besides the TDF until this year so yeah i agree that lance more than any other TDF champ that i can recall was a tour de france specialist.

ed rader

In the last 10 years, someone please list the races he's participated in after July.

greatness can be argued, but contador will never be as famous as Lance in terms of sheer numbers of people who recognize his name. in that game, lance has already far surpassed lemond, hinault, merckx, and anyone else's name you want to throw out there, because lance has managed to become immensely famous OFF his bike.

if you ask anyone who isn't a "biker," they probably have no idea who eddie is(outside of his home country), and even some friends of mine who do bike only recognize his name from his frames and don't know about all his victories.

If you ask anyone in Europe who is 45 or over they know who Eddy Merckx is. My wife is German and was a teen when Eddy was in his prime. All the kids in her GERMAN village wanted to be Eddy (at least when it came to playing cyclist) even though Eddy's time overlapped Rudy Altig, the best German rider up to that point. The bit of only knowing about or caring about riders from their own country seems to be mainly an American trait.

The bit of only knowing about or caring about riders from their own country seems to be mainly an American trait.

Highly disagree. Most Americans watched cycling for the first time for either 2 reasons: 1. Lemond 2. Armstrong. Its not a sport that is popular in the US, so it makes sense that people would discover it because an American is doing well. Same thing goes for the NBA being popular in China now because of Yao. I'm sure there are a lot more Germans watching NBA Basketball because of Dirk. Its not an "American" thing.

IN the US, the tour de France is bike racing. Cycling enthusiasts might enjoy other races, but its TDF that really matters at the end of the day.

Fixed that for you.

Just as an example, Tom Boonen is pretty famous in Europe, and it's not because he won the Green jersey in 2007.

Take a look at how many fans show up for the Classics.

many of the races he won were in preparation for the tour, and lance had never contested a GT besides the TDF until this year so yeah i agree that lance more than any other TDF champ that i can recall was a tour de france specialist.

ed rader

Ed, this is a stupid statement. How about the Vuelta? And Leadville was a TDF prep race?

Well AC could flame out like Basso, Mayo and many other young riders. Lot's of new riders coming along that have a chance of winning the TDF in coming years.

Who was the last man to beat Lance in the TDF? Does that answer your question?

Fixed that for you.

Just as an example, Tom Boonen is pretty famous in Europe, and it's not because he won the Green jersey in 2007.

Take a look at how many fans show up for the Classics.

Lots of fans show up for the Classics, but even in Belgium the Tour is bigger. (http://www.google.com/trends?q=tour+de+france%2CRonde+van+Vlaanderen%2C+Paris+Roubaix&ctab=0&geo=be&geor=all&date=all&sort=0)

I'll make this very simple ...

Eddy Mercxx is the greatest cyclist ever ... and it's not close. Lance is a great rider, a legend absolutely, but the Cannibal absent his crash in 1969 and being punched in another tour (which he lost as a result) would have won 10 TDFs in a row.

The guy won the yellow, KOM, and green and red in the same year at the TDF in 1969. He won the KOM 2x and Green 3x.

He won 5 giros and pulled off the same triple crown in 1968 at the Giro Pink, KOM, Sprinters jersey

3 wins at Paris Roubaix 11 top 8 finishes overall

3 wins La Fleche Wallon
3 world titles

People get all crazy about Cavendish winning 4 stages ... Merckx won 8 stages in both 1970 and 1974.

34 TDF stage wins
24 Giro Stage wins
6 Vuelta stage wins

Contador will never be a big figure in cycling because he's not polarizing like Mercxx, Hinault, Lemond, Armstrong et al.

I'll make this very simple ...

Eddy Mercxx is the greatest cyclist ever ... and it's not close. Lance is a great rider, a legend absolutely, but the Cannibal absent his crash in 1969 and being punched in another tour (which he lost as a result) would have won 10 TDFs in a row.

The guy won the yellow, KOM, and green and red in the same year at the TDF in 1969. He won the KOM 2x and Green 3x.

He won 5 giros and pulled off the same triple crown in 1968 at the Giro Pink, KOM, Sprinters jersey

3 wins at Paris Roubaix 11 top 8 finishes overall

3 wins La Fleche Wallon
3 world titles

People get all crazy about Cavendish winning 4 stages ... Merckx won 8 stages in both 1970 and 1974.

34 TDF stage wins
24 Giro Stage wins
6 Vuelta stage wins

Contador will never be a big figure in cycling because he's not polarizing like Mercxx, Hinault, Lemond, Armstrong et al.

ahhhh. i think you nailed it there. i see contador as being a much more tranquilo dude, like sastre or indurain.

ed rader

I'll make this very simple ...

Eddy Mercxx is the greatest cyclist ever ... and it's not close. Lance is a great rider, a legend absolutely, but the Cannibal absent his crash in 1969 and being punched in another tour (which he lost as a result) would have won 10 TDFs in a row.

The guy won the yellow, KOM, and green and red in the same year at the TDF in 1969. He won the KOM 2x and Green 3x.

He won 5 giros and pulled off the same triple crown in 1968 at the Giro Pink, KOM, Sprinters jersey

3 wins at Paris Roubaix 11 top 8 finishes overall

3 wins La Fleche Wallon
3 world titles

People get all crazy about Cavendish winning 4 stages ... Merckx won 8 stages in both 1970 and 1974.

34 TDF stage wins
24 Giro Stage wins
6 Vuelta stage wins

Contador will never be a big figure in cycling because he's not polarizing like Mercxx, Hinault, Lemond, Armstrong et al.

In another thread I made a case for Major Taylor who at one point held 7 world records.

Also as great as Eddy was, there are more nations represented now vs. then and riders specialize more. Would he have the same success in today's environment? I think not.

Agreed however, remember he did most of acheivements after a terrible crash which screwed up his back and hip. He wasn't the same rider from 1970 onward.

Say what you will Mercxx was a legendayr TTer great sprinter, and superb climber.

In the last 10 years, someone please list the races he's participated in after July.

Quite a few riders do not participate in any rodes after the tour. It is a lot like golf, where players will not play in some tournaments after the majors.

Of course, this thread is now well and truly hijacked.

I think that, as many posters have stated, Alberto will never be as big in the US as Lance. In Spain and Mexico, that is another story. Part of his issue is that he refuses to learn English. Show me another massive world cyclist that has not spoken English...

I think you have to go back quite a ways to find one.

Quite a few riders do not participate in any rodes after the tour. It is a lot like golf, where players will not play in some tournaments after the majors.

Of course, this thread is now well and truly hijacked.

I think that, as many posters have stated, Alberto will never be as big in the US as Lance. In Spain and Mexico, that is another story. Part of his issue is that he refuses to learn English. Show me another massive world cyclist that has not spoken English...

I think you have to go back quite a ways to find one.

That is not true! I heard him say WOW in that Trek commercial!

Agreed however, remember he did most of acheivements after a terrible crash which screwed up his back and hip. He wasn't the same rider from 1970 onward.

Say what you will Mercxx was a legendayr TTer great sprinter, and superb climber.

No doubt but cycling has changed, not necessarily for the better.

Also, those stuck back in the glory years of Eddy, might want to consider that prior to Jackie Robinson, major league baseball was made up only of white players. Eddy never had to race against the likes of Lemond or Armstrong.

Quite a few riders do not participate in any rodes after the tour. It is a lot like golf, where players will not play in some tournaments after the majors.

Of course, this thread is now well and truly hijacked.

I think that, as many posters have stated, Alberto will never be as big in the US as Lance. In Spain and Mexico, that is another story. Part of his issue is that he refuses to learn English. Show me another massive world cyclist that has not spoken English...
I think you have to go back quite a ways to find one.

how far do you go back?

how about pantani and indurain?

ed rader

He may very well surpass Armstrong in terms of accomplishments. He will never even come close to Armstrong in terms of worldwide fame.

Because of his story, because of his personality and because of the marketing machines behind him (in particular, that of Nike - but Oakley and others as well) Armstrong is more famous worldwide than any other cyclist in history, and it's not really even close. I was in Shanghai earlier this year, and I saw people wearing Livestrong t-shirts and Lance's face decorating huge full window ad displays at sunglass shops (selling Oakley's to young, wealthy Chinese). This is a country where cycling as a sport basically doesn't exist, and yet he's right next to Chinese track stars selling sporting apparel.

Lance has become a world figure, his cycling career is only part of it. No way Contador approaches that (though again, it's very possible his cycling career passes that of Armstrong ... he could very well win 10 grand tours given where he is already at his young age)

Also, those stuck back in the glory years of Eddy, might want to consider that prior to Jackie Robinson, major league baseball was made up only of white players. Eddy never had to race against the likes of Lemond or Armstrong.

Wait a second. Lemond and Armstrong are black???


Wow. Learn something new on this board every day!

Wait a second. Lemond and Armstrong are black???


Wow. Learn something new on this board every day!

Never said they were, just comparing baseball back in the white era, to the TDF before the Americans and other nations starting infiltrating it. The gene pool wasn't as deep when Eddy was dominating, much like when the white players didn't have blacks and Dominicans to deal with.

Never said they were, just comparing baseball back in the white era, to the TDF before the Americans and other nations starting infiltrating it. The gene pool wasn't as deep when Eddy was dominating, much like when the white players didn't have blacks and Dominicans to deal with.

your comparison is still dumb.

In another thread I made a case for Major Taylor who at one point held 7 world records.

Also as great as Eddy was, there are more nations represented now vs. then and riders specialize more. Would he have the same success in today's environment? I think not.

Likely not as much as he had then. But a lot more than anyone has today. People constantly say it was different then and you can not do not what Eddy did then. But if you asked anyone in 1965 if anyone could even come close to what Eddy did they would have said NO.

Back then the question might have been will anyone ever have a year like Fausto Coppi did in 1949, where he won the GC and KOM in both the TDF and the Giro and Milan -San Remo and the Tour of Lombardy. That is 4 of the top 9 races out there (The 3 Major Tours, the 5 Monuments and the Wrolds Championship). In a way no one has matched this. No one has won two Major Jersies in both the TDF and Giro in the same year. And no one has matched 4 out of 9 wins in one year. The best anyone else has done is 3. And no one has repeated 3 or more. No one except Eddy who won 3 or more 7 years in a row, including winning 4 twice and 5 twice.

Recently I realized one other thing that puts Eddys feats in focus. There was something unique (for Eddy) about his TDF win in 1974. It was his only TDF win where he did not pick up another major Jersey
rider has not been proven yet.
BTW one rider who has won 3 of the 9 top races is riding in the TDF this year. So it looks like perhaps feats like Eddy's are not any more out of reach than they ever were. It is just that the next great rider has not been proven yet. It is possible he is already taking some of the early steps however.

EDIT:
People might also want to look up Eddy's hour record. It stood until broken by technology. But that is not the thing I find most impressive. Eddy set out to break the 10 km, 20 km and hour records in one ride and he did so. This is insane. It just is not done, it means going out far too fast. Eddy did it however.

One more re Eddy. Different sources give differnet reasons for his choices in 1973. Some say the Vuelta made him a very very sweet offer, others say he was asked by the TDF organizers not to ride becasue they could not insure his safety. Considering what eventually happened in 1975 this was not an idle fear.

Merckx dominated like no rider ever has... except Coppi.

Put them in any era you want... they would still have what it takes to win and be the dominant riders in the sport.

your comparison is still dumb.
Thank you, and your post is pointless.

Also, those stuck back in the glory years of Eddy, might want to consider that prior to Jackie Robinson, major league baseball was made up only of white players. Eddy never had to race against the likes of Lemond or Armstrong.

Review his hour record & who has broken it since. It's been broken only twice & one of the riders was later suspended for doping. And, neither one smashed the record, only surpassed it by small margins. And, neither were capable of winning grand tours. He was extremely fast even when compared to any one riding today.

Review his hour record & who has broken it since. It's been broken only twice & one of the riders was later suspended for doping. And, neither one smashed the record, only surpassed it by small margins. And, neither were capable of winning grand tours. He was extremely fast even when compared to any one riding today.

A great feat, but he used the high altitude of Mexico city to reduce wind resistance and he had state of the art equipment at the time.

Could Major Taylor have broken the record? Who knows?

Review his hour record & who has broken it since. It's been broken only twice & one of the riders was later suspended for doping. And, neither one smashed the record, only surpassed it by small margins. And, neither were capable of winning grand tours. He was extremely fast even when compared to any one riding today.

I assume you are refering to under the new rules which provide some limits on basic bike design.

And note Eddy did not take any time off his racing schedule for extensive specialized training.

I assume you are refering to under the new rules which provide some limits on basic bike design.

And note Eddy did not take any time off his racing schedule for extensive specialized training.

Quoted from Eddy

"But for the back injury, yes I would have done many more metres. Regarding specialised training, I did all that I could. I consulted sports doctors, who had experience with sport at altitude, because I did my record in Mexico City. I trained on the home trainer with an oxygen mask, breathing the same mixture of air that I would find at altitude. I also used all of the best equipment that was available to me."

Quoted from Eddy

"But for the back injury, yes I would have done many more metres. Regarding specialised training, I did all that I could. I consulted sports doctors, who had experience with sport at altitude, because I did my record in Mexico City. I trained on the home trainer with an oxygen mask, breathing the same mixture of air that I would find at altitude. I also used all of the best equipment that was available to me."

I did no tsay Eddy did not plan or train, just that he did not take months off to do so.

That was 1970s. Now you have a wealth of greater knwoeldge escpecially in the areas of nutrion and medicine.

Put Merckx in today's reace in his 1969 form wtih the advances on the bike etc he would shred the field. H emight not win 8 stages but he'd would have won Stage 1 TT on Stage 4 (Of course he'd be on Astana:P) and Arcallis Stage 7. I would add stage 18 and 20 as well.

It's kind of like Babe Ruth v. Barry Bonds essentially. Bodnds had all the advantages and only had slightly more homers etc. Put Ruth in a similar environment and who knows maybe he hits 1000 Hrs