Professional Cycling For the Fans - Felt bad for Hincapie

Really wanted to see him in yellow. I don't see why Garmin or Astana helped AG2r cut into Hincapie's lead group, as it didn't benefit them to do any work.

Astana didn't help

Garmin who knows

Lotto who knows

Richard

Garmin doesn't like Columbia.

Lotto: I don't know either. Hincapie in Yellow is no more and maybe less of a threat than Nocentini.

Not a big Hincapie fan but I'd like to have seen him grab Yellow if only for a day.

According to the TDF website:

"at 53km, the advantage was 1’00”. Astana led the peloton from 55km onward. Hincapie was the best place on GC of those in the escape group and, at 78km, he became the virtual leader with the peloton at 5’30”.
The maximum gain of the escape was 8’50” at the 120km mark. At 145km, the AG2R team moved ahead of Astana at the head of the peloton and by 150km, the deficit of the peloton was 8’00”."

As you can see while Astana led the chase George increased his lead. When other teams took over the chase the lead came down.

Well I really didn't like the tactics of Astana. It showed poor form especially in regards to wheeling back in Hincapie, someone who broke his back for Bruynee's team for about a decade. Garmin and lotto - whatever. Big thing though, Astana should of never lead out to begin with, and I'm starting to want to see Astana destroyed for their overall cocky attitude and how they are manipulating this race. I mean I'm tired of seeing this no-name who is really underserving to be in yellow for the past 8 stages or so. It's absurd. I hope Andy can destroy all of them in the mountains at this point.

According to the TDF website:

"at 53km, the advantage was 1’00”. Astana led the peloton from 55km onward. Hincapie was the best place on GC of those in the escape group and, at 78km, he became the virtual leader with the peloton at 5’30”.
The maximum gain of the escape was 8’50” at the 120km mark. At 145km, the AG2R team moved ahead of Astana at the head of the peloton and by 150km, the deficit of the peloton was 8’00”."

As you can see while Astana led the chase George increased his lead. When other teams took over the chase the lead came down.

Ok, this makes more sense, and perhaps explains Lance's interview at the end. Oh the drama. Bah, I was just really disappointed that Hincapie didn't make yellow. If anyone deserves a bit of glory, it is him.

Alright I didn't want to do this, but it seems there is confusion on this board. Here is what happened. AG2R had a rider in the break. They let Astana know they (AG2R) will not be chasing today ha ha. Astana calls the bluff and lets George get the virtual yellow. AG2R changes their collective minds and comes to the front and closes the gap some. They are running out of gas. Astana comes back to the front and the lead starts creeping up again. AG2R comes back to the front and gets help from Garmin and Lotto.

Now the part that hurts the most. I am a big fan of George. I think he is a great rider, but he royally screwed the pooch today. Astana gave him the yellow jersey on a silver platter. With 20km to go I am thinking George will start a time trial here and drag the others along. Of course this will remove him from the stage win, but it is worth it. Then with 10km to go surely George will put his head down and ride now. With 5km to go George is sitting up at the back of the pack looking around and coasting??? That right there cost him 5 seconds or more. All he had to do is lead the group to the line with 20km to go and he would have had yellow.

Richard

Richard is dead on. George was in radio contact. He sat up -- may have been toast by then anyway. Columbia leading Cavendish out didn't help at the end. Too bad, I think this would have been the 2d time George was in yellow.

I don't know if attacking at 10k to go would have been a smart move for GH. He had already been putting in a much larger effort than any of the other riders in the break (25% in a 12 man break), so he might not have had enough left to TT away like that.

I didn't say attack. Just ride as hard as he could and he would have yellow. Did you see him sitting up and looking around several times? I did. I was thinking WTF are you doing George ride!!

Richard

"Gifts" demean the sport and the winner a little bit imo.

I hope Big George will prevail tomorrow. He can certainly climb.

Richard is dead on. George was in radio contact. He sat up -- may have been toast by then anyway. Columbia leading Cavendish out didn't help at the end. Too bad, I think this would have been the 2d time George was in yellow.

Exactly. Columbia could have had their guy in yellow if they'd just thought about it for a minute and reeled in the lead-out train. Cav beating across the line for 12th place wasn't exactly a tactical masterpiece.

On the other hand, maybe they just didn't want it. At the end it certainly looked like a "no thanks".

Cavendish lost the "sprint" to Hushovd on a technicality. The Columbia lead-out was a joke. You could tell they were just trying to stay ahead of the pack not stringing everyone out as they usually do. The lead group was big but the ag2r rider being involved kind of ruined things. It seemed like no one wanted to work, especially after the Russian dusted them all.

Would LOVE to be a fly on the wall in the Columbia bus after the race...Cavendish gets DQ'ed and George gets screwed by Lotto, AG2r (liars), and Garmin...NOT Astana...they wanted him in yellow.

Yes, it would have been nice for Hincapie to be in yellow for a day, but as a fan I want to see people race, not cry. On TV he was blaming Astana and Garmin for him not getting the yellow. If he had stepped up his game and crossed the line with the stage winner he would be in yellow. If he wasn't strong enough to do that then to bad. I don't want to see teams gust give it away because they feel it would be nice to let him have it. If that were the case just sit in a caffee and pick someone you like to wear yellow instead of racing for three weeks.

Yes, it would have been nice for Hincapie to be in yellow for a day, but as a fan I want to see people race, not cry. On TV he was blaming Astana and Garmin for him not getting the yellow. If he had stepped up his game and crossed the line with the stage winner he would be in yellow. If he wasn't strong enough to do that then to bad. I don't want to see teams gust give it away because they feel it would be nice to let him have it. If that were the case just sit in a caffee and pick someone you like to wear yellow instead of racing for three weeks.

AS much as I like George, I have to agree with this.

Cavendish lost the "sprint" to Hushovd on a technicality. The Columbia lead-out was a joke. You could tell they were just trying to stay ahead of the pack not stringing everyone out as they usually do. The lead group was big but the ag2r rider being involved kind of ruined things. It seemed like no one wanted to work, especially after the Russian dusted them all.

Yea, they were looking around a lot whereas they usually put their heads down and hammer.

Columbia could have had their guy in yellow if they'd just thought about it for a minute and reeled in the lead-out train. Cav beating across the line for 12th place wasn't exactly a tactical masterpiece.

But with the decision to go after the Green Jersey they couldn't just sit back. That place was worth 18 points and without it the Green Jersey was gone.


Columbia got doubly screwed as Cavendish was relegated and the Green Jersey is gone now anyway...

Alright I didn't want to do this, but it seems there is confusion on this board. Here is what happened. AG2R had a rider in the break. They let Astana know they (AG2R) will not be chasing today ha ha. Astana calls the bluff and lets George get the virtual yellow. AG2R changes their collective minds and comes to the front and closes the gap some. They are running out of gas. Astana comes back to the front and the lead starts creeping up again. AG2R comes back to the front and gets help from Garmin and Lotto.

Now the part that hurts the most. I am a big fan of George. I think he is a great rider, but he royally screwed the pooch today. Astana gave him the yellow jersey on a silver platter. With 20km to go I am thinking George will start a time trial here and drag the others along. Of course this will remove him from the stage win, but it is worth it. Then with 10km to go surely George will put his head down and ride now. With 5km to go George is sitting up at the back of the pack looking around and coasting??? That right there cost him 5 seconds or more. All he had to do is lead the group to the line with 20km to go and he would have had yellow.

Richard

+1 - George H. ought to retract his statement made to Frankie following the stage about Astana imho.

+1 - George H. ought to retract his statement made to Frankie following the stage about Astana imho.

he probably will after lance sets him straight :roflmao2:.

ed rader

Sitting in the family room with my 4yo and 8yo pulling for George cursing GARMIN. Anybody could see Astana wasn't trying to pull him in and then Garmin blows it. Now I know why I use a Tom Tom.

Is it really naive of me to wonder what all the fuss is about seeing as the object is to look out for your own team? Ride fast and win? Don't complain when people on teams other than your own cost you time?

maybe it is - please enlighten me!

Is it really naive of me to wonder what all the fuss is about seeing as the object is to look out for your own team? Ride fast and win? Don't complain when people on teams other than your own cost you time?

maybe it is - please enlighten me!

the self proclaimed best team in cycling has been doing a lotta whining this tour about how the other teams won't help them win.

after some of the remarks by stapleton and cavendish are they really surprised that garmin stuck it to them today :eek:?

shut up and ride, i say..........

ed rader

the self proclaimed best team in cycling has been doing a lotta whining this tour about how the other teams won't help them win.

after some of the remarks by stapleton and cavendish are they really surprised that garmin stuck it to them today :eek:?

shut up and ride, i say..........


+1 I used to be a JB fan too.

Where to start ...

If George had "stepped up his game" and worked harder, he would have been dropped when the attacks started and come in even further back. He's not an idiot -- he was going for the yellow, and he did it as smart and as hard as he could.

Astana wasn't "slowing the pack down." You can't slow it down from the front. They wanted George to win, but only by a little bit, and they just cut it too close. Like most who are very very arrogant, they can't see beyond their own noses and assumed that the gap would stay wherever their highnesses had left it. So they left George about a minute up on the yellow, not realizing that the normal acceleration at the end, plus a little work from AG2R, plus teams protecting their GC guys (Garmin, Lotto), plus a bit of a grudge match (Garmin vs. Columbia) meant that George's gap disappeared.

George has a legitimate beef against Astana. The fact is that Astana did most of the work in the chase, meaning they were controlling the gap. If they'd left him with two minutes, instead of one, then Columbia could have controlled the finish like they usually do and George would be in yellow while Cav would have won the pack sprint. But they didn't.

Columbia can hardly claim to have a legitimate beef against Garmin. They've been looking down on Garmin since before the Giro. Garmin currently has arguably the 2nd fastest sprinter and the 2nd best GC placement, but Astana and Columbia keep treating them like a junior team. Today, Garmin sent a message: F with us and there are consequences. It's a card right out of Lance's playbook (most famously with Simeoni), and it's part of Garmin's establishing itself as a major team.

Jeez where to start with this.

If George had ridden hard in the last 5 km instead of sitting up coasting and looking for help he could have made up the 5 seconds. I don't see how you can argue that. Even if he was dropped in the last 5km his speed would have been better than coasting.

Where do you slow the pack down from the back?

Astana was riding tempo and while they were the gap to the breakaway continued to increase. Finally AG2R came to the front and got it down to around 6 minutes. They ran out of gas, and Astana went back to the front and the gap went back up over 7 minutes. AG2R came up front again and got help from Garmin and Lotto and the rest is history.

Should Astana have called the group in for a picnic break to get the yellow for george? They did as much as you can expect considering he is not a teammate. To say George should be upset with them is idiotic.

Richard


Where to start ...

If George had "stepped up his game" and worked harder, he would have been dropped when the attacks started and come in even further back. He's not an idiot -- he was going for the yellow, and he did it as smart and as hard as he could.

Astana wasn't "slowing the pack down." You can't slow it down from the front. They wanted George to win, but only by a little bit, and they just cut it too close. Like most who are very very arrogant, they can't see beyond their own noses and assumed that the gap would stay wherever their highnesses had left it. So they left George about a minute up on the yellow, not realizing that the normal acceleration at the end, plus a little work from AG2R, plus teams protecting their GC guys (Garmin, Lotto), plus a bit of a grudge match (Garmin vs. Columbia) meant that George's gap disappeared.

George has a legitimate beef against Astana. The fact is that Astana did most of the work in the chase, meaning they were controlling the gap. If they'd left him with two minutes, instead of one, then Columbia could have controlled the finish like they usually do and George would be in yellow while Cav would have won the pack sprint. But they didn't.

Columbia can hardly claim to have a legitimate beef against Garmin. They've been looking down on Garmin since before the Giro. Garmin currently has arguably the 2nd fastest sprinter and the 2nd best GC placement, but Astana and Columbia keep treating them like a junior team. Today, Garmin sent a message: F with us and there are consequences. It's a card right out of Lance's playbook (most famously with Simeoni), and it's part of Garmin's establishing itself as a major team.

Would LOVE to be a fly on the wall in the Columbia bus after the race...Cavendish gets DQ'ed and George gets screwed by Lotto, AG2r (liars), and Garmin...NOT Astana...they wanted him in yellow.

The first big disappointment for Columbia in more ways than one. Just the other day they were saying "ride like a junior team, get results like a junior team", referring to Garmin I think. Given Cav's remark about how much self-loathing he feels when he loses, Garmin ought to send a few gallons of Ben & Jerry's Chocolate Therapy over to the Columbia guys.

According to the TDF website:

"at 53km, the advantage was 1’00”. Astana led the peloton from 55km onward. Hincapie was the best place on GC of those in the escape group and, at 78km, he became the virtual leader with the peloton at 5’30”.
The maximum gain of the escape was 8’50” at the 120km mark. At 145km, the AG2R team moved ahead of Astana at the head of the peloton and by 150km, the deficit of the peloton was 8’00”."

As you can see while Astana led the chase George increased his lead. When other teams took over the chase the lead came down.

I don't understand why people are not coming to the same conclusion.
Astana wanted George in yellow.

Garmin, for whatever reason, helped AG2R bring it back and take George out of yellow. I'm sure there will be more stories on this one and I don't think Garmin did itself any favors in the peloton.

If George had ridden hard in the last 5 km instead of sitting up coasting and looking for help he could have made up the 5 seconds. I don't see how you can argue that. Even if he was dropped in the last 5km his speed would have been better than coasting.

I'm going to assume you've never raced and try to be kind. When you know an attack is going to come, you have to keep a little in reserve to call upon when the punch gets thrown. If you don't, you'll be spit off the back, and once you're solo you won't catch back up. Even an un-cooperative group of eleven is faster than you solo. So, as paradoxical as it sounds, there are times when your fastest path to the finish line is to coast momentarily. If George had gone to the limit in the last 5km, he wouldn't have come in 5 seconds faster, he would have come in dozens of seconds slower.

As for Astana riding at the front, when you seem to feel they were growing George's lead: what would have happened if they had stopped pedaling?

I don't understand why people are not coming to the same conclusion.
Astana wanted George in yellow.

Garmin, for whatever reason, helped AG2R bring it back and take George out of yellow. I'm sure there will be more stories on this one and I don't think Garmin did itself any favors in the peloton.

why do you suppose hincapie was so angry at astana, then ?

ed rader

Assume what you want.

No one in the breakaway cared whether the gap was 10 minutes or ten seconds with two pssible exceptions the French rider that moved up in the standings, and the AG2R rider who wanted the smallest possible gap. The other riders didn't care about George in Yellow. Likely between 20 & 30 km to go the break realized they were going to have the stage winner.

Look back at Oscar's 30 minute stage victory in 2006. He was working his butt off to get yellow even though he knew the other rider would win the stage.

George spent his time trying to re-organize the break, and it was a waste of time, because again they did not care what the gap was to the main field. Did you watch the stage? I am going to assume you didn't since we are making assumptions. Once the winner attacked the break there was no benefit or time advantage to be had. For the most part it was a disorganized mess. George wasn't even up front. Maybe he didn't have the gas to go. If he didn't that is not Astana's fault or Garmin's fault.

George had three minutes in pocket to take yellow. If he didn't have the legs to preserve a three minute virtual lead then how is that Astanas fault?

Why would Astana stop pedaling? What is the benefit to them? I will tell you what would happen. Exactly what did happen. AG2R came to the front to cut the lead.

Richard



I'm going to assume you've never raced and try to be kind. When you know an attack is going to come, you have to keep a little in reserve to call upon when the punch gets thrown. If you don't, you'll be spit off the back, and once you're solo you won't catch back up. Even an un-cooperative group of eleven is faster than you solo. So, as paradoxical as it sounds, there are times when your fastest path to the finish line is to coast momentarily. If George had gone to the limit in the last 5km, he wouldn't have come in 5 seconds faster, he would have come in dozens of seconds slower.

As for Astana riding at the front, when you seem to feel they were growing George's lead: what would have happened if they had stopped pedaling?

I don't understand why people are not coming to the same conclusion.
Astana wanted George in yellow.

Sure, but their failing was that they wanted him in yellow by just a little bit. They failed to see past their noses and realize that if it was just a little bit, then other teams had reasons to jump all over that gap and erase it. Which is what happened.

If they'd let George have another minute, then Columbia could have done their normal finish and Garmin, Lotto and AG2R would have stayed out of the way. Cav would have won the pack sprint legitly and George would be in yellow. The cover photo of every paper tomorrow would be Lance and George hugging at the finish. Big win for both teams.

Instead, Columbia lost big (yellow and green), Astana lost in that they look like d*cks (George knows this), Garmin won by showing they can give as well as take, and Cervelo won out of dumb luck.

Dude did you watch the stage? Really? Astana gave him almost 9 minutes. That is a 2.5 minute GC leader on the road. Is that not a gift enough? If you were a GC hopeful on Astana how much time would you have given George? Really?

Richard


Sure, but their failing was that they wanted him in yellow by just a little bit. They failed to see past their noses and realize that if it was just a little bit, then other teams had reasons to jump all over that gap and erase it. Which is what happened.

If they'd let George have another minute, then Columbia could have done their normal finish and Garmin, Lotto and AG2R would have stayed out of the way. Cav would have won the pack sprint legitly and George would be in yellow. The cover photo of every paper tomorrow would be Lance and George hugging at the finish. Big win for both teams.

Instead, Columbia lost big (yellow and green), Astana lost in that they look like d*cks (George knows this), Garmin won by showing they can give as well as take, and Cervelo won out of dumb luck.

Sure, but their failing was that they wanted him in yellow by just a little bit. They failed to see past their noses and realize that if it was just a little bit, then other teams had reasons to jump all over that gap and erase it. Which is what happened.

If they'd let George have another minute, then Columbia could have done their normal finish and Garmin, Lotto and AG2R would have stayed out of the way. Cav would have won the pack sprint legitly and George would be in yellow. The cover photo of every paper tomorrow would be Lance and George hugging at the finish. Big win for both teams.

Instead, Columbia lost big (yellow and green), Astana lost in that they look like d*cks (George knows this), Garmin won by showing they can give as well as take, and Cervelo won out of dumb luck.

karmic payback was a mofo today :D.

ed rader

why do you suppose hincapie was so angry at astana, then ?

ed rader

Less than complete information, maybe, but maybe too he had good info that Astana was for him in yellow, but playing tactics to keep it down to a few seconds - which backfired.

Astana's been making a big production out of controlling the race so far, so its no wonder they get blamed for stuff like that.

I like Hincapie a lot. No, I don't feel bad for him. It's racing.

From VeloNews.com: http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/95404/

George didn't have it in him today. If he would of gotten yellow today it would have been a gift, not because of anything special George did. All those guys couldn't have bridged to the leader who went solo for how many K's?? He didn't deserve it cause he wasn't doing much work at the end.

I am more impressed with Nocentini (sp??). Who would have thought he would have been in yellow this long?

I thought today's stage was a fun watch. Tomorrow the fireworks should start.

Look back at Oscar's 30 minute stage victory in 2006. He was working his butt off to get yellow even though he knew the other rider would win the stage.

Other rider singular. One on one is not the same tactics as eleven on one. And by the way, Pereiro didn't exactly concede to Voigt. He still sprinted, just Voigt beat him.

[QUOTE]Did you watch the stage? I am going to assume you didn't since we are making assumptions./QUOTE]

Then I'll let you know: your assumption is incorrect. I also timed the last few kms. You might try it. Then compare to what George could do on his own.

I read the Velo News article. Man it seems like the Tour has become just one big lovefest for George and a Jr. High School pissing match at the same time. George already has a Yellow Jersey. George is as much to blame for losing those 5 seconds as much as Garmin is.

Let's compare George to Tom Watson. Do you think the other players at the British Open are going to roll over so the old man can have his last shot at glory? Gifting people yellow Jerseys reminds me of all those good citizen bumper stickers and awards that they hand out like candy in grade school.

i lost some respect for Hincapie today... from what i little i understand of professional cycling, i never would have guessed a rider would expect external team management or riders from another team to help a stage win or the wearing of the yellow jersey...

i suppose this happens not infrequently in the TDF?

And another thing....


How many times this tour has Hincapie helped pull the peloton along as they run down some rider in a breakaway who REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to win a stage in order for Cavendish to have a go at a sprint?


Sorry George, its racing. Everybody wants to win.

Ok I concede it was Astana's fault George didn't get yellow.

Of course the stage winner didn't have any problems with the lightning fast pack George was in. 16 second advantage with celebration.

Oh well I guess somehow Astana planned that to.

Richard


Other rider singular. One on one is not the same tactics as eleven on one. And by the way, Pereiro didn't exactly concede to Voigt. He still sprinted, just Voigt beat him.

[QUOTE]Did you watch the stage? I am going to assume you didn't since we are making assumptions./QUOTE]

Then I'll let you know: your assumption is incorrect. I also timed the last few kms. You might try it. Then compare to what George could do on his own.

i lost some respect for Hincapie today... from what i little i understand of professional cycling, i never would have guessed a rider would expect external team management or riders from another team to help a stage win or the wearing of the yellow jersey...

i suppose this happens not infrequently in the TDF?

george isn't media savvy, but his statements reflect what a lot of riders feel every year (or heck every stage) at some point or another.

meaning, they all sorta feel this way; they just don't say it in public :)

george isn't media savvy, but his statements reflect what a lot of riders feel every year (or heck every stage) at some point or another.

meaning, they all sorta feel this way; they just don't say it in public :)

George is an old guy at the end of his career with no wins this year. i attribute his comments to being knackered and frustrated...

ed rader

George is an old guy at the end of his career with no wins this year. i attribute his comments to being knackered and frustrated...

ed rader

+1 A rider towards the end of a career mostly spent helping others win.

i just got done watching the re-air a few minutes ago as i had to work today.
I am new to cycling( been in about a year) and have never raced a bike (though i have competed in both cross country in high school and crew(rowing) in college).

I thought George sounded like a fat kid who just lost a game in little league baseball but still got a trophy for competing. I understand being a "classy" rider like if you are going head to head with your closest contender and one of you flats, you slow down and wait for them, etc etc. But come on, the break away had almost 9 minutes at one point, ~5 1/2 at the finish.

I don't understand, did he just want astana to roll over and hand all of those guys including himself in the break 8+ minutes heading into the alps? This is a race. Ideally the fastest man wins, not the most popular.
Its not even like astana was bridging the gap when they were on the front.

What a bunch of wankers! George most definitively included. Cycling is indeed a strange sport....