Professional Cycling For the Fans - felt sorry for kloden...

If you can go with an escapee- or attack your group and bridge up to another rider, without helping your leader's opponent- that is fine, as Keith, Ed, Lag and Sean freakin' Kelly agree.

Armstrong/Bruyneel did not observe these basic racing conventions. They effectively expended Kloden's energies on limiting Contador's advantage, providing a high tempo springboard for the counter attacks of Wiggins, Nibali and Sastre, which they were then unable to follow.

This from the guy who was boasting about his experience and tactical advantages......... the next time he does anything to help Contador will be a first.

man i wish i had said that :D.

ed rader

I agree. If you have a teammate up the road, you don't chase and allow rivals from other teams to ride in your slipstream. That only helps the rivals from the other teams, at the detriment of your teammate who is further up the road.

What occurred is the fault of the Bruyneel/Armstrong partnership. Armstrong even admitted that he was trying to limit his losses and was struggling. Yet, he has Kloden tow his ass and all of their rivals up the final kilometers. Only then, to have their rivals save their energies to drop them and make up more time on Contador. In fact, Contador's lead over his main rivlas, Schelck, Wiggins, etc. would have been greater if this had not occurred. It's called being a poor teammate.

Don't get me wrong I don't disagree with your overall assessment. I don't think Lance is out to do AC any favors.

Richard


If you can go with an escapee- or attack your group and bridge up to another rider, without helping your leader's opponent- that is fine, as Keith, Ed, Lag and Sean freakin' Kelly agree.

Armstrong/Bruyneel did not observe these basic racing conventions. They effectively expended Kloden's energies on limiting Contador's advantage, providing a high tempo springboard for the counter attacks of Wiggins, Nibali and Sastre, which they were then unable to follow.

This from the guy who was boasting about his experience and tactical advantages......... the next time he does anything to help Contador will be a first.

Why is no one jumping on Frank Schelck's case. He tried to chase down his own brother??

Richard


I agree. If you have a teammate up the road, you don't chase and allow rivals from other teams to ride in your slipstream. That only helps the rivals from the other teams, at the detriment of your teammate who is further up the road.

What occurred is the fault of the Bruyneel/Armstrong partnership. Armstrong even admitted that he was trying to limit his losses and was struggling. Yet, he has Kloden tow his ass and all of their rivals up the final kilometers. Only then, to have their rivals save their energies to drop them and make up more time on Contador. In fact, Contador's lead over his main rivlas, Schelck, Wiggins, etc. would have been greater if this had not occurred. It's called being a poor teammate.

Why is no one jumping on Frank Schelck's case. He tried to chase down his own brother??

Richard

wasn't frank shrek at the front of the group when Contadoor attacked? If he was able he should have jumped after Contadoor for Andy Shrek (even he had a look and waited a few sconds). I guess he was just trying to get up to his brother to help him, but it was much too late.

Based on what I've seen so far, Kloden is better than Lance on the mountains. Even so, if Bruyneel tells Kloden to ride a supporting role, that's what he'll do..

The only reason I mention it was the previous complaints of Armstrong chasing Contador. Frank did the same thing to Andy.

Richard


wasn't frank shrek at the front of the group when Contadoor attacked? If he was able he should have jumped after Contadoor for Andy Shrek (even he had a look and waited a few sconds). I guess he was just trying to get up to his brother to help him, but it was much too late.

What is you have seen? The 5 second beatdown?

Richard


Based on what I've seen so far, Kloden is better than Lance on the mountains. Even so, if Bruyneel tells Kloden to ride a supporting role, that's what he'll do..

Here is an interesting quote from Wiggo reference stage 15 from cycling news article.

"At that point, Contador and Schleck had already flown the coop, leaving Astana's duo of Armstrong and Klöden setting tempo. "I felt that Klöden kept coming to the front to slow it down, and I didn't want guys coming up from behind, like Sastre."

Richard

Why is no one jumping on Frank Schelck's case. He tried to chase down his own brother??

Richard



This is not the same scenario. When frank made his move, he was attempting to jump across the gap and join Andy. At no time did Frank tow any other rider along with him in his slipstream. If Frank would've succeeded he would've joined his brother and they could've worked together.

Armstrong's situation was different. Kloden was leading a chase. Yes, leading. He was the lead rider in the chase group of a handful of the top contenders, incuding Armstrong. Kloden, who was leading Armstrong and who also had Evans, Wiggins, and other competitors in tow. Thus, Kloden's efforts allowed not only Armstrong, but the other competitors to sit in and not work.

This is poor teamwork. And it isn't being a good teammate to be leading a chase group. So, it's one thing to make a clean break and try to bridge a gap (ala Frank), and another thing completely to bridge a gap by having the other competitors in your slipstream.

Incorrect!

4 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:01:06
5 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream
6 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Cervelo TestTeam


Richard


This is not the same scenario. When frank made his move, he was attempting to jump across the gap and join Andy. At no time did Frank tow any other rider along with him in his slipstream. If Frank would've succeeded he would've joined his brother and they could've worked together.

Armstrong's situation was different. Kloden was leading a chase. Yes, leading. He was the lead rider in the chase group of a handful of the top contenders, incuding Armstrong. Kloden, who was leading Armstrong and who also had Evans, Wiggins, and other competitors in tow. Thus, Kloden's efforts allowed not only Armstrong, but the other competitors to sit in and not work.

This is poor teamwork. And it isn't being a good teammate to be leading a chase group. So, it's one thing to make a clean break and try to bridge a gap (ala Frank), and another thing completely to bridge a gap by having the other competitors in your slipstream.

Incorrect!

4 Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:01:06
5 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream
6 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Cervelo TestTeam


Richard


No. What I said is not incorrect. I never said that Frank Schleck finished the stage higher than Wiggins or Sastre. I said that there is a big difference in the move that Frank made and the move that Kloden/Armstrong made in the wake of Contador's attack.

Frank towed Sastre and Wiggins to the finish. Where is the difference? Did you see the quote I posted by Wiggins in this thread?

Richard

Frank towed Sastre and Wiggins to the finish. Where is the difference? Did you see the quote I posted by Wiggins in this thread?

Richard


It is clear that you are making this up now. Frank Schleck did not tow Wiggins or Sastre in an attempt to bridge that gap. They were being towed up by Kloden and Armstrong while Contador was up the road.

Have you been sniffing glue? Did you watch the stage? Did you see Wiggins and Sastre rode with Frank after they left the Armstrong group, and Frank finsihed ahead of Wiggins and Sastre all three at 1 minute 6 seconds down from Contador. Those are facts. It is the official time at posted by cyclingnews.com.

Richard

Read the other posters statements on this thread. Frank had tried to bridge the gap alone. He failed. All the while, Kloden was towing Armstrong, Wiggins, Sastre, etc up the final kms. THEN, Wiggins and Sastre both left a fading Kloden and Armstrong behind. They caught Frank. And at that time, Frank did no work in the group. At the finish, Wiggins and Sastre rode themselves out and got gapped at the finish by Frank.

Had Kloden not ridden to tow the entire group up, then none of that would've happened. Other people on this thread have reported the same. You are alone on this one.

No one has commented on Franks move, which I feel was fine, but for some reason Armstrong is the devil. You still have not responded to this quote from Wiggins.


"At that point, Contador and Schleck had already flown the coop, leaving Astana's duo of Armstrong and Klöden setting tempo. "I felt that Klöden kept coming to the front to slow it down, and I didn't want guys coming up from behind, like Sastre."

Richard



Read the other posters statements on this thread. Frank had tried to bridge the gap alone. He failed. All the while, Kloden was towing Armstrong, Wiggins, Sastre, etc up the final kms. THEN, Wiggins and Sastre both left a fading Kloden and Armstrong behind. They caught Frank. And at that time, Frank did no work in the group. At the finish, Wiggins and Sastre rode themselves out and got gapped at the finish by Frank.

Had Kloden not ridden to tow the entire group up, then none of that would've happened. Other people on this thread have reported the same. You are alone on this one.

I think a lot of you guys are interpreting the riders' actions way too deeply based off of what you have seen.

No one has commented on Franks move, which I feel was fine, but for some reason Armstrong is the devil. You still have not responded to this quote from Wiggins.


"At that point, Contador and Schleck had already flown the coop, leaving Astana's duo of Armstrong and Klöden setting tempo. "I felt that Klöden kept coming to the front to slow it down, and I didn't want guys coming up from behind, like Sastre."

Richard


Thanks for the quote to prove what everyone has been saying all along. Kloden WAS setting the tempo and leading the entire group. It was the opinion of one rider that he was coming to the front to "slow" it down. He should NOT even be at the front. When you have a teammate up the road on a break, you sit your ass right behind the group. Period.

Then Frank's move was wrong to. Okay got it. Thanks!

Richard


Thanks for the quote to prove what everyone has been saying all along. Kloden WAS setting the tempo and leading the entire group. It was the opinion of one rider that he was coming to the front to "slow" it down. He should NOT even be at the front. When you have a teammate up the road on a break, you sit your ass right behind the group. Period.

Thanks for the quote to prove what everyone has been saying all along. Kloden WAS setting the tempo and leading the entire group. It was the opinion of one rider that he was coming to the front to "slow" it down. He should NOT even be at the front. When you have a teammate up the road on a break, you sit your ass right behind the group. Period.

Yes, if it was truly about the team winning, then they should have been sitting back. Or they should have let Kloden go up the road with earlier attacks and left Lance. But we know that's not the case. They were trying to limit LA's losses.

Orion I don't disagree. I suspect Lance would have chased Contador if he could have, but Frank towed Wiggins and Sastre, but I don't think he was out to screw over Andy. I was pointing out the double standard.

I wonder about the dynamic with Kloden and Armstrong. Did Kloden go to the front because he thought Lance was comitting a sin? I noticed Armstrong was up front some and Kloden was up some. I really don't think Kloden could have gone. He was spit out the back also.

Richard



Yes, if it was truly about the team winning, then they should have been sitting back. Or they should have let Kloden go up the road with earlier attacks and left Lance. But we know that's not the case. They were trying to limit LA's losses.

Orion I don't disagree. I suspect Lance would have chased Contador if he could have, but Frank towed Wiggins and Sastre, but I don't think he was out to screw over Andy. I was pointing out the double standard.

I wonder about the dynamic with Kloden and Armstrong. Did Kloden go to the front because he thought Lance was comitting a sin? I noticed Armstrong was up front some and Kloden was up some. I really don't think Kloden could have gone. He was spit out the back also.

Richard

Frank definitely is doing all he can to work for Andy. He's trying to stay up with his brother so they can continue to throw hell and highwater at Astana. Tomorrow will be an interesting stage.

I tend to think that Kloden was working for Lance. Kloden was strong enough to go with the attacks by Saxo Bank when Lance was left in the dust. But Kloden didn't do any pace making today. Saxo Bank put the hammer down today. Kloden may have been gased a bit the other day because Astana was doing more work. If that was the case (the other day) and Kloden couldn't go with that attack, he might have been told to stick with LA and work to the top.