Professional Cycling For the Fans - felt sorry for kloden...

... who has worked his butt off for team astana and today would probably be in the top three if he hadn't paced lance armstrong to the finish.

kloden is quietly putting in one of the best performances of his career and you don't hear him whining about being subordinate to a weaker team mate.

bruyneel should now do the right thing and have armstrong work for contador and kloden. if contador cracks or crashes out i believe kloden has demonstrated that he is the team's best GC hope.

ed rader

He's a classy guy. I've feel that way about Kloden since the T-Mobile days.

its a down right shame that guys like kloden have to give up very real opportunities to make podium runs at the TdF, which short of winning it, would mean just as much for these types of racers, who will never be team leaders or super stars of the sport. i wonder if LA had never caught that break in stage 4, if kloden would still have had to work for LA, despite being ahead in GC and clearly climbing better. classy guy... i hope he gets a chance now to turn himself loose the rest of the tour and show what kind of form he has.

I do feel for him but it's always been part of the sport. Lemond gave a tour win to the badger. Sometimes I wish it was just a free for all with no teams.

Geez ed rader, your hatred for lance really clouds your judgement on these things. Are you the reincarnated Howzit? I mean, if the Lance brand is diminished, what does that do to the sponsorship dollars? Do you really think Kloden would rather go back to the Astana days before LA showed back up when no one was getting paid for months on end? What about the top flight team that is about to come out of all this? Don't you think Kloden knows where the payback is coming from? You have done nothing but besmirch what LA has done this whole TDF and ignore the bigger picture that is going on behind the scenes. Hell you shouldn't feel sorry for Kloden, you should envy the position he finds himself in moving forward!

Geez ed rader, your hatred for lance really clouds your judgement on these things. Are you the reincarnated Howzit? I mean, if the Lance brand is diminished, what does that do to the sponsorship dollars? Do you really think Kloden would rather go back to the Astana days before LA showed back up when no one was getting paid for months on end? What about the top flight team that is about to come out of all this? Don't you think Kloden knows where the payback is coming from? You have done nothing but besmirch what LA has done this whole TDF and ignore the bigger picture that is going on behind the scenes. Hell you shouldn't feel sorry for Kloden, you should envy the position he finds himself in moving forward!

so you think the goal should be to get lance the highest placing even tho he can't win the race and won't be with astana next year?

talk about clouded judgement!

ed rader

its always been a part of the sport, but when you have GC guys separated by a handful of seconds, as kloden and LA were, it makes it that much harder to comprehend. would have been really classy if LA just told kloden to go ahead and ride for himself. in any event, the ITT and ventoux look to be a really interesting stages for 2nd and 3rd place and kloden is definitely still in the mix if he can do his own race. i see LA losing chunks of time up ventoux, if his form is as it was today... verbier was about a quarter of the length of ventoux.

Yes. Unless you really think that Kloden coud top contador as tour champ, then he has nothing to gain by trying to make a fellow teammate look bad, especially one that potentially holds future purse strings. I still think that there is a legitimate shot for Astana to sweep the podium, but you act as if Kloden is towing LA with a rope! He's in freaking 4th place and was protecting the higher placed teammate! From your previous posts I thought you understood that......

its always been a part of the sport, but when you have GC guys separated by a handful of seconds, as kloden and LA were, it makes it that much harder to comprehend. would have been really classy if LA just told kloden to go ahead and ride for himself. in any event, the ITT and ventoux look to be a really interesting stages for 2nd and 3rd place and kloden is definitely still in the mix if he can do his own race. i see LA losing chunks of time up ventoux, if his form is as it was today... verbier was about a quarter of the length of ventoux.

kloden would have finished before cadel today if he didn't have to babysit lance. lance is the one who talks about riding for the team. the best move for astana today was to have kloden move up in the GC.

ed rader

its a down right shame that guys like kloden have to give up very real opportunities to make podium runs at the TdF, which short of winning it, would mean just as much for these types of racers, who will never be team leaders or super stars of the sport. i wonder if LA had never caught that break in stage 4, if kloden would still have had to work for LA, despite being ahead in GC and clearly climbing better. classy guy... i hope he gets a chance now to turn himself loose the rest of the tour and show what kind of form he has.

This is something that I've questioned about the Astana tactics from the start. LA was the 4th strongest rider on the team behind AC, Levi, and Kloden after the opening TT. LA caught break, which was caused by Columbia, and jumped the other 3. AC attacks on a climb to get back ahead. But it was obvious that the team was seriously riding a tactical race that benifited LA. Astana could have seriously been looking at sweeping the podium in Paris. At least before Levi went down. They still have a chance. But Kloden has given up time to pull for Lance. Kloden appeared to be strong enough to roll in with Wiggins. He still would have only been about 10 seconds behind Wiggins instead of over 30 seconds back now.

Did you fail to notice that team Astana has the 1, 2 and 4th placed riders heading into the last week? Seriously Ed, you think letting LA fall out of contention completely just so Kloden could have gone from 4th to 3rd and picked up a few seconds would have been the better tactic? Really?

Yes. Unless you really think that Kloden coud top contador as tour champ, then he has nothing to gain by trying to make a fellow teammate look bad, especially one that potentially holds future purse strings. I still think that there is a legitimate shot for Astana to sweep the podium, but you act as if Kloden is towing LA with a rope! He's in freaking 4th place and was protecting the higher placed teammate! From your previous posts I thought you understood that......

armstrong will not make the podium. if you don't see that you don't understand what happened today. it's time lance puts his money where his mouth is and rides for the team, and that's what he said he's going to do.

ed rader

kloden would have finished before cadel today if he didn't have to babysit lance. lance is the one who talks about riding for the team. the best move for astana today was to have kloden move up in the GC.

ed rader

If Kloden were to see Evans in his rear view mirror there would be a notice that says objects in the mirror are smaller than they appear.

well you seem to think that these top guys are so dependent upon lance for a job next year... that couldn't be further from the truth. if astana disbanded, kloden would get snatched up like that. same goes for every other rider on astana. they don't need lance for a hefty pay day. what separated lance and kloden was that early break on stage 4, which had more to do with racing smarts/luck than strength. there's every reason to think kloden can TT and climb better than lance, which is all that's left in the tour. no he didn't tow lance with a rope, but he sure looked like is wings were clipped. so he drops time to schleck and wiggins, his biggest competitors for the podium. if lance cannot hold on to his 2nd place, then yes, it would have been a bad move to have him stay back.

I have no allusions that LA looked like he can hang onto the 2nd spot based on how he did today, but thats not how the tour is run. If it were, then teams wouldn't be riding to protect there guys in yellow while killing themselves when there guy has no chance of holding it. As long as LA is the higher placed rider, you protect those guys, its TDF 101 stuff. Doesnt mean that Kloden wont get turned loose at some point, but there is only so much to be gained by Kloden and today wasn't the day to do that.

Yes. Unless you really think that Kloden coud top contador as tour champ, then he has nothing to gain by trying to make a fellow teammate look bad, especially one that potentially holds future purse strings. I still think that there is a legitimate shot for Astana to sweep the podium, but you act as if Kloden is towing LA with a rope! He's in freaking 4th place and was protecting the higher placed teammate! From your previous posts I thought you understood that......

Kloden would be the higher placed teammate if he was allowed to ride up the mountain. Sheesh. By Kloden protecting the higher placed teammate who has demonstrated that he can't attack on the big climbs anymore, they are sacrificing Kloden's potential to finish in 2nd.

The big importance of Contadors move in stage 7, was that he became the higher placed rider. Then LA wouldn't have been able to pull the "don't attack a teammate card." Astana is holding Kloden back to help LA. Just like AC was being held back. If AC had attacked earlier on the climb (stage 7) instead at a the last 2k, he would another minute on his lead.

well you seem to think that these top guys are so dependent upon lance for a job next year... that couldn't be further from the truth. if astana disbanded, kloden would get snatched up like that. same goes for every other rider on astana. they don't need lance for a hefty pay day. what separated lance and kloden was that early break on stage 4, which had more to do with racing smarts/luck than strength. there's every reason to think kloden can TT and climb better than lance, which is all that's left in the tour. no he didn't tow lance with a rope, but he sure looked like is wings were clipped. so he drops time to schleck and wiggins, his biggest competitors for the podium. if lance cannot hold on to his 2nd place, then yes, it would have been a bad move to have him stay back.

Im not saying Kloden couldnt find work, never implied that. What I am saying is that LA will be a part of putting together a top flight team and its an amazing opportunity for any ride to be a part of. With that kind of support, Kloden could be tour champ down the road. I am not arguing over how LA got that advantage, but your team tactic are still dictated by how your guys are placed. While you discount that LA can podium, I think there is a great chance that team Astana sweeps (better odds with Levi, but still) which has to be the approach until it is no longer possible. Letting LA blow up today and remove that opportunity would have been a bad move. LA had to stay where he is at to hang onto a top 3 finish where Kloden can still be turned loose amd move up.

Kloden would be the higher placed teammate if he was allowed to ride up the mountain. Sheesh. By Kloden protecting the higher placed teammate who has demonstrated that he can't attack on the big climbs anymore, they are sacrificing Kloden's potential to finish in 2nd.

The big importance of Contadors move in stage 7, was that he became the higher placed rider. Then LA wouldn't have been able to pull the "don't attack a teammate card." Astana is holding Kloden back to help LA. Just like AC was being held back. If AC had attacked earlier on the climb (stage 7) instead at a the last 2k, he would another minute on his lead.

thank you :thumb:!

ed rader

when the clock is ticking on a mountain stage, team plans and rankings need to change on the spot... just like they have virtual yellow jersey leaders, when lance couldn't respond to a handful of accelerations, kloden should have jumped to virtual #2 on astana. if LA was truly being a good teammate, he should have just let the kid go... what's a podium finish going to mean to LA? i'm sure it would mean a heck of a lot more to kloden.

Kloden would be the higher placed teammate if he was allowed to ride up the mountain. Sheesh. By Kloden protecting the higher placed teammate who has demonstrated that he can't attack on the big climbs anymore, they are sacrificing Kloden's potential to finish in 2nd.

The big importance of Contadors move in stage 7, was that he became the higher placed rider. Then LA wouldn't have been able to pull the "don't attack a teammate card." Astana is holding Kloden back to help LA. Just like AC was being held back. If AC had attacked earlier on the climb (stage 7) instead at a the last 2k, he would another minute on his lead.

And then Astana couldn't have rode there tactical race savign themselves for this last week. Sheesh. Pay attention, the LAST thing they wanted was for Contador to take the Yellow on 7, thats why there was a ripple when he nearly upset the applecart! It had nothing to do with protecting LA, it was a team tactic!

when the clock is ticking on a mountain stage, team plans and rankings need to change on the spot... just like they have virtual yellow jersey leaders, when lance couldn't respond to a handful of accelerations, kloden should have jumped to virtual #2 on astana. if LA was truly being a good teammate, he should have just let the kid go... what's a podium finish going to mean to LA? i'm sure it would mean a heck of a lot more to kloden.

It means a helluva lot to the sponsors! I am not arguing that LA looked done today. I will be stunned if he is able to bounce back and really hold that #2. But there is plenty of time for Kloden to get to #2 assuming that LA can't hold it, and today wasn't that opportunity. Don't feel sorry for him as the OP suggested, he's in great shape heading into the last week!

Im not saying Kloden couldnt find work, never implied that. What I am saying is that LA will be a part of putting together a top flight team and its an amazing opportunity for any ride to be a part of. With that kind of support, Kloden could be tour champ down the road. I am not arguing over how LA got that advantage, but your team tactic are still dictated by how your guys are placed. While you discount that LA can podium, I think there is a great chance that team Astana sweeps (better odds with Levi, but still) which has to be the approach until it is no longer possible. Letting LA blow up today and remove that opportunity would have been a bad move. LA had to stay where he is at to hang onto a top 3 finish where Kloden can still be turned loose amd move up.

you're not thinking of the team....you just want your man lance to get the highest placing possible. don't worry: bruyneel will probably hamstring kloden and i think that will have an opposite effect from what you envision for the final podium.

ed rader

you're not thinking of the team....you just want your man lance to get the highest placing possible. don't worry: bruyneel will probably hamstring kloden and i think that will have an opposite effect from what you envision for the final podium.

ed rader

Umm actully I am just employing LOGIC instead of being such a HATER Ed!

What happened today couldn't have been better for the team! They took the Yellow on the stage they wanted it and have three guys in the top 5! seriously, how you can conclude otherwise is really an amazing stretch.

well wiggins is riding and climbing really well... and his talents in the TT match and maybe even exceed kloden... so every second kloden gives up in the mountains is going to make it that much harder for him to leap wiggins in the GC. i think its more or less a given that andy schleck is the 2nd best climber in this tour and he is going to make his podium move and will most likely get it at ventoux. i think lance will be toast on ventoux.. and that makes for a scenario with only 1 astana podium. that's kind of how i see the GC shaking out.

Umm actully I am just employing LOGIC instead of being such a HATER Ed!

What happened today couldn't have been better for the team! They took the Yellow on the stage they wanted it and have three guys in the top 5! seriously, how you can conclude otherwise is really an amazing stretch.

would you please not make this personal? i have thus far avoided your personal attacks but i'd appreciate it if you would stop.

okay i'm moving on from this thread. i believe more will be revealed in the next few days that will render this discussion moot.............

ed rader

A little touchy Ed? Personal attacks? I simply stated the facts as I see them. Every conclusion you come to seems based on your opinion of LA. Team Astana isn't approaching this any differently than any other team in the tour. You protect your top placed riders. I agree that this will be sorted out this week, which is why I don't see the need to feel sorry for Kloden. Kloden will have his chance to move up from here on, especially if LA fades this last week. Today was premature, but I think he gets turned loose if he is the stronger rider.

Lowlife, I agree that wiggins is the spoiler in all this. I am sure that he didn't figure into Astana's thinking going into this week, and if they don't sweep the podium IMO it will be because Wiggins crashed the party.

And then Astana couldn't have rode there tactical race savign themselves for this last week. Sheesh. Pay attention, the LAST thing they wanted was for Contador to take the Yellow on 7, thats why there was a ripple when he nearly upset the applecart! It had nothing to do with protecting LA, it was a team tactic!

I don't really buy that excuse. Astana did most of the peloton control over the past week despite not have the yellow on their team. Even though AG2R held the jersey, there were only a couple of stages where they took charge and rode like it. And they never did it on any of the climbs.

Maybe I watching a different race. Seemed to me that LA kept up quite well, even if he was a bit taxed. Kloden didn't seem to be tethered to LA, could've left if he choose, but didn't. AC was nearly superhuman today. I was amazed at his ability to leave EVERYONE, not just LA, for dead. I think it was an amazing performance by a group of extremely talented cyclists. I don't understand the hatred for LA...how many other 37yr-old could've kept up with/without Kloden's help. Looked to me like Astana is extremely strong. And, unless Wiggins pulls an extra leg out of his but, it'll be tough to catch AC, especially if he continues to climb like this. Even LA alluded to that fact after the race. AC seems to be, with very little doubt, the best climber in the world right now.

Maybe I watching a different race. Seemed to me that LA kept up quite well, even if he was a bit taxed. Kloden didn't seem to be tethered to LA, could've left if he choose, but didn't.
Yes, you must have been watching a different race. Kloden was clearly there to pace Lance and could have finished higher.

There is no doubt now that Kloden is stronger than Lance. But LA is still higher placed, so there is the argument that you ride for the higher placed teammate because you never know what can happen. Maybe Jens' bear comes out of the woods and mauls Contador.

There is no chance that Astana sweeps - not with guys pace setting on the mountains. The only way Lance gets a podium spot is if Kloden paces him to it, which will cost Kloden his spot. And on the flipside, Lance could pace Kloden to a podium spot. It's clear who has greater ambition and influence, so no chance for Kloden to podium this year.

:rolleyes:
I can't believe the Armstrong supporters are criticizing the original poster (erader) about his comment that Kloden deserves to be higher placed than Armstrong. And calling him an Armstrong hater as well and comparing him to the old user Howzit?! Geez! Come on people! If anything, erader is far more of an Armstrong supporter than you will believe. All that doesn't really matter. I have disagreed with ed and others on a number of occasions, but you Armstrong supporters have gone too far. So what if someone has a different opinion than you?

In this instance, erader makes a valid point. Take away the flat stage when Armstrong got some time, not to mention the team time trial, and Armstrong could easily be out of the top 10. He's done worse than Kloden in the individual TT, the Pyrenees, and now Kloden has lost maybe his last opportunity to win, or at least, finish on the podium, just to tow Armstrong up the last climb.

I have no allusions that LA looked like he can hang onto the 2nd spot based on how he did today, but thats not how the tour is run. If it were, then teams wouldn't be riding to protect there guys in yellow while killing themselves when there guy has no chance of holding it. As long as LA is the higher placed rider, you protect those guys, its TDF 101 stuff. Doesnt mean that Kloden wont get turned loose at some point, but there is only so much to be gained by Kloden and today wasn't the day to do that.

Teams taht do not have a chance of having someone on the podium in Paris work madly to get and defend yellow early. By your standards Merckx should have worked to defend the yellow for Stevens.

In recent years we have seem Popovich in yellow and Postal do nothing to defend his jersey (right call). We have even seen a team ride away from a man in yellow in a TTT because he was not a contender while they had another rider who was.

Based on his performance today Lance will not be on the podium in Paris. There is a chance he just had a bad day, but he dropped a lot of time for tha kind of stage it was and Kloden lost almost as much babysitting him.

:rolleyes:
I can't believe the Armstrong supporters are criticizing the original poster (Ed) about his comment that Kloden deserves to be higher placed than Armstrong. And calling him an Armstrong hater as well and comparing him to the old user Howzit?! Geez! Come on people! If anything, edrader is far more of an Armstrong supporter than you will believe. All that doesn't really matter. I have disagreed with ed and others on a number of occasions, but you Armstrong supporters have gone too far. So what if someone has a different opinion than you?

In this instance, edrader makes a valid point. Take away the flat stage when Armstrong got some time, not to mention the team time trial, and Armstrong could easily be out of the top 10. He's done worse than Kloden in the individual TT, the Pyrenees, and now Kloden has lost maybe his last opportunity to win, or at least, finish on the podium, just to tow Armstrong up the last climb.

hate is a strong word. i don't hate anyone. when lance was disgnosed with cancer i sent him a get well card...i even got a non-personalized reply....it's around here somewhere.

i was a huge fan back in the day. these days i'm not crazy about lance but i certainly don't hate him. if lance were on garmin or columbia i would be rooting for him.

what i do despise is the way lance, aided and abetted by johann bruynell, tried to usurp AC's team for his own egocentric purposes while saying he was riding for the team and doing it for cancer victims.

what i've said from the beginning is astana should be squarely behind contador and not play lance's game, and that lance at almost 38 years old is no longer capable of winning the tour de france.

you know, after arcalis they asked levi and lance if contador defied "the plan" and they both rolled their eyes and said he did.

could you imagine lance going for that from one of his team mates when he was the captain of postal/discovery? he would have done everything in his power to destroy anyone's career who defied him or spoke ill of him.

so yeah i think armstrong knowingly and maliciously disrespected contador in a big way by playing his game but really the fault lies with bruyneel.

today contador served notice that he's noone's chump in one of the most exciting displays of power i've seen in a long time, and i am happy for him.

ed rader

:rolleyes:
I can't believe the Armstrong supporters are criticizing the original poster (erader) about his comment that Kloden deserves to be higher placed than Armstrong. And calling him an Armstrong hater as well and comparing him to the old user Howzit?! Geez! Come on people! If anything, erader is far more of an Armstrong supporter than you will believe. All that doesn't really matter. I have disagreed with ed and others on a number of occasions, but you Armstrong supporters have gone too far. So what if someone has a different opinion than you?

In this instance, erader makes a valid point. Take away the flat stage when Armstrong got some time, not to mention the team time trial, and Armstrong could easily be out of the top 10. He's done worse than Kloden in the individual TT, the Pyrenees, and now Kloden has lost maybe his last opportunity to win, or at least, finish on the podium, just to tow Armstrong up the last climb.

I disagree. Kloden has not lost his podium spot yet. But if he has to keep pacing Lance until Lance is of the podium then it will be too late for Kloden.

im with you top to bottom, ed.

im only a recent (04+) armstrong fan simply because of what ive seen of the french's* attempted defamation of armstrong. i very much rooted for his successful return when he announced it.

however that position quickly reversed once ive seen him do the same to his teammate... albeit in a much more subtle matter. give up the ghost, lance!

anyone notice contador's earpeice was out at the finish wonder when that "fell" out, maybe sick of johan telling him to slow down (only kidding cant imagine bruyneel been that dumb)

anyone notice contador's earpeice was out at the finish wonder when that "fell" out, maybe sick of johan telling him to slow down (only kidding cant imagine bruyneel been that dumb)

The earpiece thing reminded me of Agent Smith when he was being mean to Morphius and disconnected himself from the grid.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/craigie_bucket/matrix-weav2.jpg

Could Astana believe that LA was a little off yesterday, the day before the second rest day? Up the Cat 2 climb he was sitting the furthest down in the peloton that I have seen him all tour. Kloden, Sastre, VDV, etc. couldn't stay with the initial group when AC went but LA did. Maybe Johan believed that LA just needed to recover a bit and get back on. Why not use Kloden to help pace LA back up? Unless Johan truly believed LA was toast, that was the smart move. Could of been just a bad move by LA going to hard to stay with that first group when AC accelrated. Had he not tried to stay with them so hard, maybe he would of made it back with Sastre, Evans etc. Maybe LA is done, maybe it was a bad day. The next week will tell, but helping keep a seven time TDF winner within striking distance in case something happens with AC is not babysitting but being smart, IMHO.

anyone notice contador's earpeice was out at the finish wonder when that "fell" out, maybe sick of johan telling him to slow down (only kidding cant imagine bruyneel been that dumb)

i saw him messing with his earpiece right near the end. it looked like he was trying to put it in his ear.

ed rader

Could Astana believe that LA was a little off yesterday, the day before the second rest day? Up the Cat 2 climb he was sitting the furthest down in the peloton that I have seen him all tour. Kloden, Sastre, VDV, etc. couldn't stay with the initial group when AC went but LA did. Maybe Johan believed that LA just needed to recover a bit and get back on. Why not use Kloden to help pace LA back up? Unless Johan truly believed LA was toast, that was the smart move. Could of been just a bad move by LA going to hard to stay with that first group when AC accelrated. Had he not tried to stay with them so hard, maybe he would of made it back with Sastre, Evans etc. Maybe LA is done, maybe it was a bad day. The next week will tell, but helping keep a seven time TDF winner within striking distance in case something happens with AC is not babysitting but being smart, IMHO.

armstrong was at the front when AC jumped. at first he and a schleck just looked at contador then schleck went too but lance didn't...lance knew he couldn't keep up with schleck.

later when kloden paced lance they were actually dragging others up the climb. when they should have been following. i don't know who thought what but that didn't seem right to me.

ed rader

later when kloden paced lance they were actually dragging others up the climb. when they should have been following. i don't know who thought what but that didn't seem right to me.



yah i noticed that too... it seemed like LA and kloden were doing tempo for a while until wiggins and frank schleck attacked and split everyone up. but i guess it didn't really matter b/c AC was gaining time with every kilometer, no matter who was chasing.

We can debate how JB is using Kloden in this Tour, but what is undeniable is that Lance has done nothing yet to help his team's leader. Being the tactician that he is, if he really wanted to help Contador, he should have signaled Conti to move up with him before that split in the wind on the early flat stage.

Now that it is clear to everyone, including Lance, that Conti is Astana's best GC contender, it will be interesting to see if he does anything to help him - like pacing him. Or will he ride solely to garner a podium spot for himself, and will JB allow Kloden to be sacrificed for this cause?

armstrong was at the front when AC jumped. at first he and a schleck just looked at contador then schleck went too but lance didn't...lance knew he couldn't keep up with schleck.

later when kloden paced lance they were actually dragging others up the climb. when they should have been following. i don't know who thought what but that didn't seem right to me.

ed rader

Pacing Contador's rivals up the climb- especially between kilometres 5 and 3- was shocking and Sean Kelly called them on it (Eurosport commentary). Kloden hesitated to begin with and left the front of the group but was soon put back to work- presumably by Bruyneel or Armstrong.

Of course it is nice insurance to have 1-2 on GC - but no well organised team would promote the interest of the 2nd guy at the expense of the 1st.

I am not so sure on this one. If there was clear space between Contador and the Lance group I would agree, but Lance had the right, and duty if he could to try and reel in Andy.

Richard


Pacing Contador's rivals up the climb- especially between kilometres 5 and 3- was shocking and Sean Kelly called them on it (Eurosport commentary). Kloden hesitated to begin with and left the front of the group but was soon put back to work- presumably by Bruyneel or Armstrong.

Of course it is nice insurance to have 1-2 on GC - but no well organised team would promote the interest of the 2nd guy at the expense of the 1st.

I don't know how you do it in NC but .......

who leads the chase, when your team leader has the jersey and is away up the road?

Armstrong had the right and duty to sit behind Wiggins, Nibali and whoever else- to force them to lead the chase.

I don't know how you do it in NC but .......

who leads the chase, when your team leader has the jersey and is away up the road?

Armstrong had the right and duty to sit behind Wiggins, Nibali and whoever else- to force them to lead the chase.

I agree with you, but with one slight tweak. IF lance or Kloden had the legs for it they could have attacked the group, with the caviet that if they did not get a gap they back off. It is not an efficient way of riding, which is exactly the point, esp with Astana having 2 riders in the group that could do this.

I would have tried this if I thought both my riders had the legs for it. In hindsight they did not, and it was pretty clear from looking at the stage that Kloden had already spent a lot of energy on the stage. So I'd say your make others take the front an optimum strategy.

Are you saying Armstrong should not have tried to catch Andy? How about when Wiggins went should he have not tried to catch him? I think it is a fine line. If Contador attacks and someone tries to follow in this case Andy then Armstrong tries to catch him.

In this case the chase wasn't to Contador it was to Andy. But I also think if Armstrong had managed to catch Andy he may have kept going after AC also, but that is speculation.

Richard

Are you saying Armstrong should not have tried to catch Andy? How about when Wiggins went should he have not tried to catch him? I think it is a fine line. If Contador attacks and someone tries to follow in this case Andy then Armstrong tries to catch him.

In this case the chase wasn't to Contador it was to Andy. But I also think if Armstrong had managed to catch Andy he may have kept going after AC also, but that is speculation.

Richard

armstrong should have went with andy but he was not able to. there's no way in hell armstrong was going to catch schleck. what armstrong did was pull the others who later dropped him.

i know i didn't see the whole race but i have watched the versus coverage a half dozen times and that's what it looks like to me.

ed rader

armstrong should have went with andy but he was not able to. There's no way in hell armstrong was going to catch schleck.


+1

I think you made my point for me.

You haven't seen me write that he could have caught Andy only he was trying to catch Andy and I suspect Alberto also, but again speculation on my part.

Richard


armstrong should have went with andy but he was not able to. there's no way in hell armstrong was going to catch schleck. what armstrong did was pull the others who later dropped him.

i know i didn't see the whole race but i have watched the versus coverage a half dozen times and that's what it looks like to me.

ed rader

If you can go with an escapee- or attack your group and bridge up to another rider, without helping your leader's opponent- that is fine, as Keith, Ed, Lag and Sean freakin' Kelly agree.

Armstrong/Bruyneel did not observe these basic racing conventions. They effectively expended Kloden's energies on limiting Contador's advantage, providing a high tempo springboard for the counter attacks of Wiggins, Nibali and Sastre, which they were then unable to follow.

This from the guy who was boasting about his experience and tactical advantages......... the next time he does anything to help Contador will be a first.