Professional Cycling For the Fans - Contador's Rise

I'm not too familiar with what young Contador has gone through to reach his current heights, other than his Wiki entry. Did any of you veteran cycling fans know of him before his win in 2007? Was he a prodigy climber young or something? How did he step up from climber to all-round star?

I'm not too familiar with what young Contador has gone through to reach his current heights, other than his Wiki entry. Did any of you veteran cycling fans know of him before his win in 2007? Was he a prodigy climber young or something? How did he step up from climber to all-round star?

yes.

He was a prodigy climber who has greatly improved his all around riding.

He sort of backed into the 2007 TdF title at a very young age in a year with no true peleton patron and the rasmussen doping controversy, but he stamped the law down last year in the Giro and Vuelta and has clearly elevated himself to one of the true greats the past two offseasons.

someone drug test this kid...

I'm not too familiar with what young Contador has gone through to reach his current heights, other than his Wiki entry. Did any of you veteran cycling fans know of him before his win in 2007? Was he a prodigy climber young or something? How did he step up from climber to all-round star?

He was hired by the right DS. Bruyneel was very conscious of him before his hired him for the 07 season. Unfortunately, Bruyneel has not been able to bring up his IQ or tactics.

Don't worry they will.

For some reason if someone other than Lance wins it must be drugs. He is just better drugs or not. He is even much better than I thought. Lance should reconsider his plans. Today was his day to prove he still has it, and he failed.

Richard


someone drug test this kid...

Yea that is killing his performace.

Richard


He was hired by the right DS. Bruyneel was very conscious of him before his hired him for the 07 season. Unfortunately, Bruyneel has not been able to bring up his IQ or tactics.

He was hired by the right DS. Bruyneel was very conscious of him before his hired him for the 07 season. Unfortunately, Bruyneel has not been able to bring up his IQ or tactics.


some people will say anything.....
his IQ and tactics hasnt hurt his GC standing I see...

He was hired by the right DS. Bruyneel was very conscious of him before his hired him for the 07 season. Unfortunately, Bruyneel has not been able to bring up his IQ or tactics.

LOL........

AC not only had to beat the other TDF teams, but he also had to beat (most of) Astana...

From where I sit, he has outsmarted all of them at their own game.

Don't worry they will.

For some reason if someone other than Lance wins it must be drugs. He is just better drugs or not. He is even much better than I thought. Lance should reconsider his plans. Today was his day to prove he still has it, and he failed.

Richard

that was a compliment

LOL........

AC not only had to beat the other TDF teams, but he also had to beat (most of) Astana...

From where I sit, he has outsmarted all of them at their own game.

It's a team sport with team goals as well. Look at Bruyneels interview on Velonews. Who does Contador work for. Well shortly it will be Vino & he'll be wishing Bruyneel was still there. Think it is smart to ignore your bosses advice? How long do you stay employed? They also had a goal of putting as many riders on the podium as possible, did they not?

Don't worry they will.

For some reason if someone other than Lance wins it must be drugs. He is just better drugs or not. He is even much better than I thought. Lance should reconsider his plans. Today was his day to prove he still has it, and he failed.

Richard

I think the issue is he beat Cancellara....people don't beat Cancellara in a TT. It has nothing to do with lance.

people don't beat Cancellara in a TT.
Even I know this, so I'll say it:

incorrect.

It's a team sport with team goals as well. Look at Bruyneels interview on Velonews. Who does Contador work for. Well shortly it will be Vino & he'll be wishing Bruyneel was still there. Think it is smart to ignore your bosses advice? How long do you stay employed? They also had a goal of putting as many riders on the podium as possible, did they not?

what bruyneel tried to do was hamstring the tour champion and place armstorng as team captain. if lance had taken yellow on arcalis bruyneel's machinations could have very well cost astana the yellow jersey.

all this having the yellow jersey ride to place domestiques on the podium is just more lance twitter BS :thumb:.

ed rader

I think the issue is he beat Cancellara....people don't beat Cancellara in a TT. It has nothing to do with lance.

As well as his background. He was initially linked to Operation Puerto. However, he's Spanish & not a single Spanish rider has been banned with the exception of Valverde & only in Italy.

I think the issue is he beat Cancellara....people don't beat Cancellara in a TT. It has nothing to do with lance.

vu, that makes you sound like a fu :roflmao2:!

ed rader

"He (Contador) has worked very hard, earning the right to represent our team as the leader this July."
Buryneel on 6/26/09

YEAH RIGHT...........

Can anyone show me where the "team" actually acted in the best interest of Contador and treated him as a true leader?

Dropping in him in a wind split peloton and actually putting riders in front to drive up a time gap?

Keeping him “throttled” from attacking rivals on mountain top finishes under the guise of hurting his team?

The only time the teams interests aligned with “supporting” Contador was when they coincided with supporting Lance. The TTT was important to LA, driving/controlling the peloton was important to LA, etc.

It was obvious to me that from the beginning, it was JB and LA plan to get Lance into yellow ASAP AHEAD of Contador. If they had been successful in doing that, Lance would have been anointed “temporary” leader (just pretending) and use it as further justification to throttle Contador. The longer Lance stayed in yellow the more it would have become impossible for AC to attack without being heavily, heavily criticized. AC knew this and took matters into his own hands.

Blah blah blah.

AC did his talking in the mountains and the TT's. What more do you want him to do?

If wants to gloat at this point about winning despite his team, then he should go ahead and do so. If he chooses to be less obnoxious about it, then so be it. Good on him either way.

BTW, does anyone know if he's going to defend his Vuelta title this year?

Also keep in mind this year's course was meant to keep the time gaps close. If it were a tougher course in that reagrd AC would have a 10 minute lead probably.

Richard

"He (Contador) has worked very hard, earning the right to represent our team as the leader this July."
Buryneel on 6/26/09

YEAH RIGHT...........

Can anyone show me where the "team" actually acted in the best interest of Contador and treated him as a true leader?

I think you (and JB) are using the term "leader" interchangeably with "best rider". In this case, I don't think the same. Lance and AC each thought they were both the leader and best rider, and both were mistaken. I have seen plenty to demonstrate AC is the best rider, but none of his actions seem to indicate he is the team leader.

I think you (and JB) are using the term "leader" interchangeably with "best rider". In this case, I don't think the same. Lance and AC each thought they were both the leader and best rider, and both were mistaken. I have seen plenty to demonstrate AC is the best rider, but none of his actions seem to indicate he is the team leader.

No............ leader means (and meant) leader:

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=afp-cyclingfratourastana&prov=afp&type=lgns

It wasn't until the eve of the TDF when the "strongest/best" rider talk started, which oddly enough was supposed to be settled after the first TT, then the mountains, etc, etc

I seriously doubt that JB/LA even consider it settled now, after all there are still three stages

what bruyneel tried to do was hamstring the tour champion and place armstorng as team captain. if lance had taken yellow on arcalis bruyneel's machinations could have very well cost astana the yellow jersey.

Uhh... WHAT? :twitchy: Are you watching the same race as the rest of us!?


With two exceptions Alberto has been following Bruyneel's instructions closely. The first exception gained him a few seconds that he didn't need, and the second cost his teammate dearly - and the team a probably podium spot. I guarantee you that he regrets the second. It was obvious at the time!

Tactics aside, under Johan he learned how to TT and to TTT. Without the time he gained in those two disciplines he might not have sniffed yellow at all.

I think you (and JB) are using the term "leader" interchangeably with "best rider". In this case, I don't think the same. Lance and AC each thought they were both the leader and best rider, and both were mistaken. I have seen plenty to demonstrate AC is the best rider, but none of his actions seem to indicate he is the team leader.

I absolutely agree, except that if you read his quotes carefully, LA always said that AC is the "best rider". Of course he also said that he (Lance) is (or was) riding "to win", but that doesn't contradict his opinion of AC.

There a plenty of parallel situations. Jens Voigt, for instance, is referred to as the Saxobank "team leader", even though he may be the 3rd (or even 4th) best rider on the team.

What most of the people here seem unable to grasp is that a team leader - by definition - is not out only for himself.

Think it is smart to ignore your bosses advice? How long do you stay employed? They also had a goal of putting as many riders on the podium as possible, did they not?

You'll be a pretty dumb boss if you wont support the best rider on the planet....

someone drug test this kid...

You mean beyond all the days he takes a stage, wears the yellow jersey, or is selected for "random testing" at least one day out of three while in competition?

what bruyneel tried to do was hamstring the tour champion and place armstorng as team captain. if lance had taken yellow on arcalis bruyneel's machinations could have very well cost astana the yellow jersey.

all this having the yellow jersey ride to place domestiques on the podium is just more lance twitter BS :thumb:.

ed rader

This is probably the most accurate assessment of the Astana team tactics on this board. It Lance had gotten yellow before AC, there is no way he would have been allowed to attack the team leader wearing yellow. There was only one reason for JB to tell him not to attack. And that was to keep it close for Lance to get a shot at yellow. This nonsense about not wanting to have the yellow to soon is BS. Astana did most of the race control anyways through out the tour.

For all of the talk about AC being stupid and not understanding tactics, he did understand that he had to get the yellow before Lance. And he took matters into his own hands. He should have attacked sooner on arcalis and left no doubt about it. He would have been up 5 minutes on the field going into the TT.

As per botto:

INCORRECT

"He (Contador) has worked very hard, earning the right to represent our team as the leader this July."
Buryneel on 6/26/09

YEAH RIGHT...........

Can anyone show me where the "team" actually acted in the best interest of Contador and treated him as a true leader?

Dropping in him in a wind split peloton and actually putting riders in front to drive up a time gap?

Keeping him “throttled” from attacking rivals on mountain top finishes under the guise of hurting his team?

The only time the teams interests aligned with “supporting” Contador was when they coincided with supporting Lance. The TTT was important to LA, driving/controlling the peloton was important to LA, etc.

It was obvious to me that from the beginning, it was JB and LA plan to get Lance into yellow ASAP AHEAD of Contador. If they had been successful in doing that, Lance would have been anointed “temporary” leader (just pretending) and use it as further justification to throttle Contador. The longer Lance stayed in yellow the more it would have become impossible for AC to attack without being heavily, heavily criticized. AC knew this and took matters into his own hands.

Amen Brother!

For all of the talk about AC being stupid and not understanding tactics, he did understand that he had to get the yellow before Lance. And he took matters into his own hands. He should have attacked sooner on arcalis and left no doubt about it. He would have been up 5 minutes on the field going into the TT.

Exactly.

Well, not exactly. I see Bruyneel as acting a little more benignly, happy to have either in yellow. Only he's pissed at Contador because he doesn't Follow The Plan. I'm with you all the way, though, on the race to be first in yellow and Contador taking it into his own hands. If Contador had followed the plan, Lance would have been his main threat, not Andy. And with team dynamics in the mix, Lance would have been the far more formidable opponent.

Then again, dropping a team leader in a wind split is pretty tacky, maybe even suspicious.

Regardless, Contador's not nearly as dumb as a lot of us think he is. He is winning.

I absolutely agree, except that if you read his quotes carefully, LA always said that AC is the "best rider". Of course he also said that he (Lance) is (or was) riding "to win", but that doesn't contradict his opinion of AC.

There a plenty of parallel situations. Jens Voigt, for instance, is referred to as the Saxobank "team leader", even though he may be the 3rd (or even 4th) best rider on the team.

What most of the people here seem unable to grasp is that a team leader - by definition - is not out only for himself.

This illustrates the problems that Astana has with Contador. They know that physically he is the strongest rider on the team. But he doesn't quite seem to have the maturity, mental discipline, and personality of a team leader. Not only must the team leader be strong on the bike, but they must have a strong sense of tactics and respect for the other riders. After all, the other riders work their butts off to help the main GC guy so some moves can be harmful to other riders.

For instance the other day when Contador attacked without needing to and dropped his own team mate. This only hurt Astana and didn't really help Contador at all. The thing is that Contador is a really good guy but he has these impulsive tendencies and riding style. The way that he naturally rides he would almost be better off on a team that is not so strong. He could still win on his own without that much help from his teammates.

Then again, dropping a team leader in a wind split is pretty tacky, maybe even suspicious.

What was he supposed to do, drop back across the split and pull back the peloton single handedly? The only thing that would've accomplished was to put Lance 40 seconds back (off the podium?).

Nothing at all questionable about what happened that day, AC just got unlucky.

This illustrates the problems that Astana has with Contador. They know that physically he is the strongest rider on the team. But he doesn't quite seem to have the maturity, mental discipline, and personality of a team leader. Not only must the team leader be strong on the bike, but they must have a strong sense of tactics and respect for the other riders. After all, the other riders work their butts off to help the main GC guy so some moves can be harmful to other riders.

For instance the other day when Contador attacked without needing to and dropped his own team mate. This only hurt Astana and didn't really help Contador at all. The thing is that Contador is a really good guy but he has these impulsive tendencies and riding style. The way that he naturally rides he would almost be better off on a team that is not so strong. He could still win on his own without that much help from his teammates.

The problem with this argument is the idea that Kloden was a serious podium threat. The idea of Astana sweeping the podium was pipe dream. Sure its been a few stages since then, but its obvious that Kloden was not capable of defending a podium spot. Astana should have been more focused on securing a large lead for for AC before they were worrying about podium finishes for the domestiques. And this is going back to the pyrenees. Kloden's riding after that incident demonstrated, more than anything, that he was not a real threat to the podium. If Kloden doesn't tell AC that he's okay and good to go with the attack, and then drop immediately off the back, this is a non-issue. GC podium finishers don't consistently get dropped from the leaders group on the defining climbs.

As its played out, nobody other than AC was strong enough to beat A. Schleck. And Kloden clearly wasn't as strong as Armstrong. Astana has two riders on the podium. Not inspite of AC's tactic deficiencies, but because AC and LA have demonstrated that they two of the top three riders consistently over 20 stages thus far.

What was he supposed to do, drop back across the split and pull back the peloton single handedly? The only thing that would've accomplished was to put Lance 40 seconds back (off the podium?).

Nothing at all questionable about what happened that day, AC just got unlucky.

just like lance got lucky when he hitched up with columbia and, oh, left a team leader in the wind. lance knew to usurp the team leader he needed to get into yellow first....but on arcalis contador would have none of it.

ed rader

just like lance got lucky when he hitched up with columbia and, oh, left a team leader in the wind. lance knew to usurp the team leader he needed to get into yellow first....but on arcalis contador would have none of it.
ed rader

Yep, AC had to break from the Astana "team" tactics on that one. He should have attacked sooner and taken more time. He would have been reduced to having to pace Lance up all of the climbs if LA had gotten in the yellow at all. A lot of people criticizing AC for being dumb tactically. But that was the smartest move of the whole Tour. Once he corrected that bad break caused by Columbia, he was free to take the yellow.

I see Bruyneel as acting a little more benignly, happy to have either in yellow. Only he's pissed at Contador because he doesn't Follow The Plan. I'm with you all the way, though, on the race to be first in yellow and Contador taking it into his own hands. If Contador had followed the plan, Lance would have been his main threat, not Andy. And with team dynamics in the mix, Lance would have been the far more formidable opponent.

Look, what everyone here seems to forget is that these guys have been riding together for the better part of a year. While we out here had no idea, within Astana they knew exactly who was stronger and where. No way they expected Armstrong (et al.) to match him in the mountains, and maybe not even the TT. This whole "four potential winners" gas is simply smart tactics. Don't let your opponents know what you're really up to.

From that perspective, the yellow Lance might have worn would have been strictly honorary, and they would likely have looked for the first opportunity to give it away.



Then again, dropping a team leader in a wind split is pretty tacky, maybe even suspicious.
:rolleyes:
Lance was ahead of the split. He couldn't see it form, much less do anything about it.




Regardless, Contador's not nearly as dumb as a lot of us think he is. He is winning.

In some measure because he is Following the Plan.


He's not dumb, but I can't vouch for certain posters...

What I want to know is if LA and JB get their own private room during the tour.

He was hired by the right DS. Bruyneel was very conscious of him before his hired him for the 07 season. Unfortunately, Bruyneel has not been able to bring up his IQ or tactics.

I hoped Lance and Bruyneel screamed at him after that stage where AC attacked at the wrong time dropping his teammate Kloden and isolating himself with the Shlecks. It would have been a disaster if AC found himself in trouble right at the moment where the Schlecks attacked.
The outcome to the tour could have easily been very different.

The kid is extremely strong and is definitely the future dominator of the tour. But he still has A LOT to learn. If he had half a brain he would stick with Bruyneel for the radioshack team so his training can continue.

This illustrates the problems that Astana has with Contador. They know that physically he is the strongest rider on the team. But he doesn't quite seem to have the maturity, mental discipline, and personality of a team leader. Not only must the team leader be strong on the bike, but they must have a strong sense of tactics and respect for the other riders. After all, the other riders work their butts off to help the main GC guy so some moves can be harmful to other riders.

For instance the other day when Contador attacked without needing to and dropped his own team mate. This only hurt Astana and didn't really help Contador at all. The thing is that Contador is a really good guy but he has these impulsive tendencies and riding style. The way that he naturally rides he would almost be better off on a team that is not so strong. He could still win on his own without that much help from his teammates.

Kloden wasnt gonna be able to keep up if it had been Andy or Frank attacking either. Kloden wasted more energy helping Armstrong during other stages than that attack took out of him.

Speculation and hindsight.

Inadmissible.

[QUOTE=DMF;9352945]Look, what everyone here seems to forget is that these guys have been riding together for the better part of a year. While we out here had no idea, within Astana they knew exactly who was stronger and where. No way they expected Armstrong (et al.) to match him in the mountains, and maybe not even the TT. This whole "four potential winners" gas is simply smart tactics. Don't let your opponents know what you're really up to.

From that perspective, the yellow Lance might have worn would have been strictly honorary, and they would likely have looked for the first opportunity to give it away.



If that's the case, why exactly is Lance so pissed at AC? If he really didn't expect to win.

In some measure because he is Following the Plan.

Yes, he followed his plan. But he won mostly because he is flat out the best rider. Dominant climber and tt'er.

See, we don't really disagree after all. I knew you'd see the light. :D

This illustrates the problems that Astana has with Contador. They know that physically he is the strongest rider on the team. But he doesn't quite seem to have the maturity, mental discipline, and personality of a team leader. Not only must the team leader be strong on the bike, but they must have a strong sense of tactics and respect for the other riders. After all, the other riders work their butts off to help the main GC guy so some moves can be harmful to other riders.

For instance the other day when Contador attacked without needing to and dropped his own team mate. This only hurt Astana and didn't really help Contador at all. The thing is that Contador is a really good guy but he has these impulsive tendencies and riding style. The way that he naturally rides he would almost be better off on a team that is not so strong. He could still win on his own without that much help from his teammates.

Not true, he is stuck on a team that was built with long time supporter riders of LA.
It would be hard for anyone to lead those riders other than LA, LA never accepted the role of 2nd best on the team.

maybe contador will ride for armstrong in the vuelta to repay lance
for all the hard work he did supporting alberto in july...

maybe contador will ride for armstrong in the vuelta to repay lance
for all the hard work he did supporting alberto in july...

Haha ... doubt LA is going for a 3rd Grand Tour this year - More likely to see AC riding a mountain bike with LA & LL.

Just kidding!

. There was only one reason for JB to tell him not to attack. And that was to keep it close for Lance to get a shot at yellow. This nonsense about not wanting to have the yellow to soon is BS. Astana did most of the race control anyways through out the tour.



AG2R did a lot of work for the better part of a week to keep their guy in th jersey. Sure Astana still controlled the race, but they had an allie in AG2R that they would not have had if the Astana had the jersey.

From a sports blogger:

NOT LANCE ARMSTRONG WINS TOUR DE FRANCE (http://withleather.uproxx.com/2009/07/not-lance-armstrong-wins-tour-de-france)


He also wrote this, in his predictions, the day before:
"TOMORROW: Contidor over FIELD. Tough nut, Lance. Maybe next year. "

Interesting quote from Lance in an AP article here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/ap_on_sp_ot/cyc_tour_de_france_208

"Contador is that good, so I don't see how I would have been higher than that, even in the other years," said Armstrong, who won the Tour seven consecutive times from 1999 to 2005 before retiring. "I think his performance this year would have beaten my performances in '01 and '04 and '05."

Sounds like someone has eaten some humble pie. Reality is finally setting in with Lance. At least he's coming to grips with it.

LA has said repeatedly that AC was a stronger rider so where's the reality finally setting in?

I agree that the team 'gestalt' and politics were handled horribly this year, but show me one
time where anyone said lance was the stronger rider and should be the protected rider (as opposed
to team leader).

And I still maintain that the break on stage 3 wasn't subterfuge, I think LA just happened to
be at the front when the break occurred, nothing more.

Marty

When LA benefited from the Columbia wind-split he had Popovich with him, and insisted "Poppo" take a turn at pulling to increase the gap to the peloton.

Poppo naturally hesitated because they should have been trying to SLOW the break to get their Team back up, but LA's force of character over-ruled Poppo, and pull he did.

And I still maintain that the break on stage 3 wasn't subterfuge, I think LA just happened to
be at the front when the break occurred, nothing more.



Did you watch the stage?

I did..... and LA and the two other Astana riders were pulling at the front on multiple occasions after the split had formed. It was totally obvious that LA was driving the gap as far as he could get it. That was the moment it became crystal clear what his motives were (as if it was in doubt).