Professional Cycling For the Fans - Riddle Me This - When Did Greg LeMond become a jerk?

Keep in mind I'm a 99er and a bad one at that. I recall having a VERY vague interest in cycling during the 80s and read where and American finally won the Tour. Cool for Greg LeMond. Fast forward where Greg has become an Armstrong parasite and his whole being is consumed with trying to embaress LA. Fair enough, every man needs a hobby and it seems Greg has found his life's calling - making LA confess to doping.

But now he's using his maths and pulling numbers out of thin air to suggest AC is a doper and he's saying the burden is on AC's shoulders to prove he isn't doping.

What is it with Greg LeMond that makes him such a jerk? Has he always been a jerk?

I must have missed something - what's Greg done now? Link?

My bad!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-extends-tour-lead-with-stunning-time-trial-win

Keep quote:

"[LeMond] said the burden is on Contador to prove he is capable of his performance without the use of drugs.

Keep in mind I'm a 99er and a bad one at that. I recall having a VERY vague interest in cycling during the 80s and read where and American finally won the Tour. Cool for Greg LeMond. Fast forward where Greg has become an Armstrong parasite and his whole being is consumed with trying to embaress LA. Fair enough, every man needs a hobby and it seems Greg has found his life's calling - making LA confess to doping.

But now he's using his maths and pulling numbers out of thin air to suggest AC is a doper and he's saying the burden is on AC's shoulders to prove he isn't doping.

What is it with Greg LeMond that makes him such a jerk? Has he always been a jerk?

Always, or at least since 85.

Keep in mind I'm a 99er and a bad one at that. I recall having a VERY vague interest in cycling during the 80s and read where and American finally won the Tour. Cool for Greg LeMond. Fast forward where Greg has become an Armstrong parasite and his whole being is consumed with trying to embaress LA. Fair enough, every man needs a hobby and it seems Greg has found his life's calling - making LA confess to doping.

But now he's using his maths and pulling numbers out of thin air to suggest AC is a doper and he's saying the burden is on AC's shoulders to prove he isn't doping.

What is it with Greg LeMond that makes him such a jerk? Has he always been a jerk?

probably but he's certainly gotten worse.

after greg was finished -- he went kicking and screaming BTW -- the hunt was on for
the next greg lemond. there were a couple pretenders and then there was lance armstrong. pre-cancer the rap on armstrong was "he's a good one-day racer but he'll never win the tour".

well you know what happened after that....lance went on to win seven consecutive tours and dwarf the accomplishments of greg lemond.

well lemond couldn't handle not being top dog so after lance won a couple of tours he turned on him and he's become more shrill over the years to become the pathetic individual he is today.

ed rader

It was about the time of the Taco Bell commercials... way worse than anything on Versus this year, and they played on prime time.

I think they're on YouTube if you want a shudder moment.

So Lance was American #2 to win the tour? And Ed, can you elaborate:

"after greg was finished -- he went kicking and screaming BTW"


I know he was in a hunting accident that sidelined him but what about this kicking and screaming bit?

So Lance was American #2 to win the tour? And Ed, can you elaborate:

"after greg was finished -- he went kicking and screaming BTW"


I know he was in a hunting accident that sidelined him but what about this kicking and screaming bit?

i saw lemand and phil liggett at stanford university about 11 years ago, lemond jokes about his brother-in-law shooting him but in truth lemond could have won two more tours if he had'nt been shot.

plus he blames hinault for him (lemond) not winning in 85.

at the end of his career lemond blamed an obscure muscular condition that he attributed to lead pellets still in his body. he just couldn't accept the fact he was finished.

so the way greg sees it is he has been victimized by

-- hinault

-- his brother-in-law

-- the doctors (he blamed them too)

-- and a doping lance armstrong

otherwise he would be the winningest american cyclist. and now i guess he's out to get everyone and i'm not even sure he knows why anymore.

ed rader

Keep in mind I'm a 99er and a bad one at that. I recall having a VERY vague interest in cycling during the 80s and read where and American finally won the Tour. Cool for Greg LeMond. Fast forward where Greg has become an Armstrong parasite and his whole being is consumed with trying to embaress LA. Fair enough, every man needs a hobby and it seems Greg has found his life's calling - making LA confess to doping.

But now he's using his maths and pulling numbers out of thin air to suggest AC is a doper and he's saying the burden is on AC's shoulders to prove he isn't doping.

What is it with Greg LeMond that makes him such a jerk? Has he always been a jerk?


What is it with internet forums and people calling each other jerks? It's Cowardly.

That said, Le Mond knows a whole lot more about athletic performance than anyone in these forums. Is he right? Is he wrong? No one knows, but he has a point . . . where do these outrageous performances come from?

Don't let the manner in which he speaks keep you from listening to what he's saying.

he's lost his mind

GL is a tough club racer, and that is all he is today.

Thanks Ed.

Garther, the internet has nothing to do with me calling lemond a jerk, it's simply the venue to do so. the next time I hang out with some cyclists I'll call him a jerk in "real time" but for now this is will do.

He may know about athletic performance but his armchair analysis (his maths) is outrageous. he's pathetic. and he is a jerk to suggest AC is doped up when he has no evidence to substantiate his character assassination. the guy is a weasle and I wish I could say it to his face but alas, for now all I have is the interwebz

Greg LeMond seems to have taken it upon himself to police the cycling world. He has an opinion on everyone and doesn't keep his opinions to himself.

I can't figure out what his damage seems to be.

So Lance was American #2 to win the tour? And Ed, can you elaborate:

"after greg was finished -- he went kicking and screaming BTW"


I know he was in a hunting accident that sidelined him but what about this kicking and screaming bit?

Lemond raced two (?) more Tours after his last win and didn't do very well. That's when he started making excuses and pointing fingers.

Q: Who was the last Tour de France winner who won the last Tour he started?

hint - It's not Floyd.
another hint - not Eddy.

I thought Armstrong had done it but even he couldn't allow himself to quit without someone beating him first... (yet).

What is it with internet forums and people calling each other jerks? It's Cowardly.


Hello welcome to the tubes we call the interweb or "net", it must be your first time.


What is it with internet forums and people calling each other jerks? It's Cowardly.

That said, Le Mond knows a whole lot more about athletic performance than anyone in these forums.

Thats possible, but I think quite a few of us have him beat on tact, good taste, and gentlemanly (or ladylike) behavior. and there are many people who know a lot more than him about science and medicine, anatomy and physiology, and even the recognition of drugs and steroids within the human body because of years and years of post-secondary study in these fields.

just because alot of people around me might do cocaine, that doesn't make me an expert on substance abuse....for example I mean. I have even been proven wrong about people I thought were and werent on coke before....for example

My bad!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-extends-tour-lead-with-stunning-time-trial-win

Keep quote:

"[LeMond] said the burden is on Contador to prove he is capable of his performance without the use of drugs.

Thanks for the link, and "there he goes again".

Whether he's got a point or not I don't know, but what does he want to do - stand on every finish line with his calculator and DQ any athlete that deviates from the norm? Geez - maybe I'm naive, but I'm can still enjoy great racing without looking for needle-tracks.

What is it with internet forums and people calling each other jerks? It's Cowardly.
but he has a point .

Don't let the manner in which he speaks keep you from listening to what he's saying.

You fault people for the manner in which they communicate and then defend Greg's lack of communications skills and tact. Do you not consider this to be a bit hypocritical?

Greg's got a point. But, he's going about making a meaningful impact all wrong. From the day he started loosing, he's been pointing fingers, blaming drugs and the governing bodies. If he were to quieting make alliegences with those within the sport and assist them, instead of attacking them, he could prossibly be an excellent spokesman. However, that's never really been his pattern, instead he attacks everyone and in the process alienates himself and causes them to become defensive. The large hurdle that he would probably have to overcome if he were to attempt to work from within the sport, is his enduring alltruistic approach. The governing bodies are as concerned with limiting the damage that drugs can do to the sport's image and maintaining a reasonably level playing field, as they are actually elliminating them all together. Part of maturity is the ability to recognize what you can change and what you can not, endevouring to change what you can and learning to deal with what you can not. Greg seems to be missing this key trait. I lot of us would love to support his cause, if he could learn to quit being such a jerk.

Think about how many positives there have been over the last three tours as the consequences of AFLD testing. Now compare that with this years UCI led testing. Do you really think the field changed their approach so dramatically?

:shrug: he was always cool to me back in the day......

He says there's a lot of things pointing to the possibility that the entire peloton is doped and that the current anti-doping regime isn't working. He's right on both accounts. You might disagree with how he's going about it, his exact words, etc. But those two things are true.

Keep in mind I'm a 99er and a bad one at that. I recall having a VERY vague interest in cycling during the 80s and read where and American finally won the Tour. Cool for Greg LeMond. Fast forward where Greg has become an Armstrong parasite and his whole being is consumed with trying to embaress LA. Fair enough, every man needs a hobby and it seems Greg has found his life's calling - making LA confess to doping.

But now he's using his maths and pulling numbers out of thin air to suggest AC is a doper and he's saying the burden is on AC's shoulders to prove he isn't doping.

What is it with Greg LeMond that makes him such a jerk? Has he always been a jerk?

probably but he's certainly gotten worse.

after greg was finished -- he went kicking and screaming BTW -- the hunt was on for
the next greg lemond. there were a couple pretenders and then there was lance armstrong. pre-cancer the rap on armstrong was "he's a good one-day racer but he'll never win the tour".

well you know what happened after that....lance went on to win seven consecutive tours and dwarf the accomplishments of greg lemond.

well lemond couldn't handle not being top dog so after lance won a couple of tours he turned on him and he's become more shrill over the years to become the pathetic individual he is today.

ed rader

Ahhhh, that is where you learned it!:)

One the one hand Greg has a legitimate complaint because he claims to have been clean when many others were not. Had he not been shot, maybe he could have won other tours. If the lead in his body didn't start leeching into his blood, maybe he could have won even more. Maybe it's bitterness but he's become a watchdog of sorts for the sport. I think it's better this way than as it is with baseball - welcoming Manny back from drug suspension as if he is some kind of hero (he's not - he's just a fkn cheater).

Ya Greg is a whiner, but I think the drug busts over the years have vindicated him more than anything.
These guys are as strong on the last day of a grand tour as the first. Over a 3 week tour at the efforts that they put in they should be shells of them former selves.

Call him a whiner and yes he is but I think he knows a lot more than most of us about what is going on.

I have come to the conclusion that it is a level playing field so I have gone back to watching the tour again.

I seriously doubt that they can clean up the sport. The tour organizers have made it so difficult and a lot of the racers have nothing else going on in their lives so they have also come to the reality that they have to do what they have to do.

Not bad company......

And really, people are pretty darn shrill over what he has ACTUALLY said.

He didn't say Lance is a doper, just that his association with Dr. Ferrari looks bad. He's right. Maybe he's clean, but it certainly looks bad.

He didn't say that AC is a doper, just that his performances are other-worldly. He's right. Maybe he's clean, but he still looks "extra-terrestrial" to quote Gibo.

Just look at the situation with DiLuca (assuming, for the moment, that he was guilty - that's another discussion):

1) He looked other-worldly and still got beat.

2) The guy that beat him got pulverized in the Tour.

3) Though if he was guilty of taking CERA, he was guilty for the whole Giro and before. Out of all of those tests that arose out of the targeted testing process he only showed up positive on two occasions.

For me that sure points to exactly what LeMond is saying - the testing is not working and perhaps the whole peloton is doped. If that includes your favorite rider too bad for you. As a fan, I've accepted that reality. I sure hope Lance and AC are clean but I'm prepared to learn otherwise. Though I don't think I'm prepared to learn that Jens Voigt is doping.....that'd break my heart.

Chris

Chris

Greg LeMond is embarrassing to the public and himself

I always thought that Lemond had that tour in hand, and was was forced to let Hinualt win due to team orders. That is something that wouldn't happen today, due to all the American press, and the American sponsors. Back then, though, you had very few Americans that had even heard of the Tour de France, and there was no way they were going to let an American rider take the tour over a French rider on a French team. Not gonna happen.

A big issue in Lemond's career was his inability to control his weight, especially in the off season. He went in to many seasons 10-20 lbs overweight, and had to ride into shape.

Not necessarily in his defense though, I have also wondered why we don't ever see a contending rider crack anymore. As I recall in years past, no rider could go the entire three weeks without a bad day or two. It was rare for a gc contender to dominate on the climbs two or three days in a row. It's been several years since I saw a rider bonk on a climb and lose several minutes. Even support riders seem capable of riding hard every day.

I trust and hope that it is just better conditioning, better knowledge of the body, and not better science in a bottle.

"[LeMond] said the burden is on Contador to prove he is capable of his performance without the use of drugs.


I believe that no matter what proof AC would come up with Lemond would refute it. No proof is good enough for him these days.

I always thought that Lemond had that tour in hand, and was was forced to let Hinualt win due to team orders. That is something that wouldn't happen today, due to all the American press, and the American sponsors. Back then, though, you had very few Americans that had even heard of the Tour de France, and there was no way they were going to let an American rider take the tour over a French rider on a French team. Not gonna happen.

A big issue in Lemond's career was his inability to control his weight, especially in the off season. He went in to many seasons 10-20 lbs overweight, and had to ride into shape.

Not necessarily in his defense though, I have also wondered why we don't ever see a contending rider crack anymore. As I recall in years past, no rider could go the entire three weeks without a bad day or two. It was rare for a gc contender to dominate on the climbs two or three days in a row. It's been several years since I saw a rider bonk on a climb and lose several minutes. Even support riders seem capable of riding hard every day.

I trust and hope that it is just better conditioning, better knowledge of the body, and not better science in a bottle.

Ya, go back to the glory days of the TDF and you will see top riders crack all the time, but gain it back later on.

GL was a passionate racer; when the hunting accident took that away from him (mitochondrial myopathy), he was bitter, and about then 'deduced' that others were doping; this was in Indurain's time, and there have been several that have been exposed for it.

He's been eclipsed by LA, and can't handle the thought of it, so LA 'must be doping'.

Now his bicycle business is in the toilet, so he's just p.o.'ed at the world.

He needs to go home and fly his private plane more......

Greg is not a jerk. Armstrong and his parade of supporters are the real classless schmucks.

Greg is not a jerk. Armstrong and his parade of supporters are the real classless schmucks.

So, answer me this. Do you have a racer you like and support?

Greg is not a jerk. Armstrong and his parade of supporters are the real classless schmucks.


http://markjberry.blogs.com/way_out_west/spliff.jpg

Greg is not a jerk. Armstrong and his parade of supporters are the real classless schmucks.

So, am I conclude that you think:

Greg's choice to write imflamatory articles for the French press instead of working with cyclings' governing and policing agencies is that of a class individual?

That Greg's constant attacks on just about every champion since himself, regardless of evidence or not, are not the acts of a jerk?

That Greg is incapable of controlling his own words and actions, and that it's Lance that's causing him to act this way?

And that it's not his own words and actions(attacking their biggest star) that have led to Trek dropping the Greg Lemond label, but, a conspiracy by LA and other industry insiders?

And, as proof of just how far the dark lord's (la) influence extends, not a single other manufacturer will pick that label up?

No, I think the evidence speeks loud and clear as to the disposition of GL. I'm sorry. I used to really like the guy. He was a hero to me as a young cyclist. But, history and his own words have painted a different portrait than what many of us would have liked to see.

As to the Armstrong Parade and Circus being schmucks: the verdict is not quite in yet as to whether all are fools, oafs or jerks. I, personally, would like to think that I'm not. But, then again, I'm already a card carrying Fred, might as well add a Schmuck endorsement to it.:)

http://markjberry.blogs.com/way_out_west/spliff.jpg

Yeh man,.........absolutely perfect.

at the end of his career lemond blamed an obscure muscular condition that he attributed to lead pellets still in his body. he just couldn't accept the fact he was finished.
ed rader

I think I remember reading somewhere that Greg said starting in 91-92 or so, he started noticing a lot of guys getting a lot faster REALLY quick...implication of drugs taking precedent..

As to the Armstrong Parade and Circus being schmucks: the verdict is not quite in yet as to whether all are fools, oafs or jerks. I, personally, would like to think that I'm not. But, then again, I'm already a card carrying Fred, might as well add a Schmuck endorsement to it.:)


Actually, the words "classless", "jerk", etc, are far too nice of a way to describe Armstrong. The real die-hard Armstrong fans just hate on Lemond because they can't stand the thought of him being correct. You got to have a villain for every hero. And the hero worshippers have found their villain. The real a**hole is Armstrong. Period.

I always thought that Lemond had that tour in hand, and was was forced to let Hinualt win due to team orders. That is something that wouldn't happen today, due to all the American press, and the American sponsors. Back then, though, you had very few Americans that had even heard of the Tour de France, and there was no way they were going to let an American rider take the tour over a French rider on a French team. Not gonna happen.

A big issue in Lemond's career was his inability to control his weight, especially in the off season. He went in to many seasons 10-20 lbs overweight, and had to ride into shape.

Not necessarily in his defense though, I have also wondered why we don't ever see a contending rider crack anymore. As I recall in years past, no rider could go the entire three weeks without a bad day or two. It was rare for a gc contender to dominate on the climbs two or three days in a row. It's been several years since I saw a rider bonk on a climb and lose several minutes. Even support riders seem capable of riding hard every day.

I trust and hope that it is just better conditioning, better knowledge of the body, and not better science in a bottle.

For one thing the diet is now known to be a huge ingredient for optimum performance. And a lot more is know about how it effects the body. Also individual riders are more able to collect information that can help them than in Lemonds day thanks to the internet.

However, my guess is that doping has gotten so sophisticated that it is still going on to a large degree. The passport programs however force doping to be far more moderate and controlled which should have a tendency to even out the field to some degree. Riders who get greedy and try to push the amount of intake for PED are more likely to get caught with an unusual blood profile.

I was not aware that Lemond had such a weight problem. But I can relate. One thing that I have noticed about Lemond is that his thinking is very black and white and even though he has many good points this leads him to make absolute judgements which are not always completely founded.

For instance, there is evidence both for and again'st the ability to increase the VO max. Also, the Vo max while the primary measurement of aerobic endurance is not the only thing that is going on in the body.

The facts as I see them is that Lemond body was being compromised by the lead in his system but also by his eating habits and frustration levels. The frustration was a combination of his having to deal with unfair treatment by his team combined with sudden weakness compared to the large component of riders who started using EPO. His success probably triggered a higher usage of more modern PED by other teams who didn't want to by out gunned by the American and who possibly had greater access to these things because of being supported with more money interests.

I don't believe an exact date can be pinned down for EPO usage as some seem to think. And some teams may have gotten some of it a year or two before it was widely known among the peleton. Because most of the PED come through illegal channels some of it would get into the black market before it was available through normal legitimate channels. I believe that the opportunity for a live real time lab test bed is too great of a temptation for some of the drug companies to ignore. And they let some of the stuff out secretly through organized crime channels to see it's effects on athletes. And a large portion of the athletes are willing to be guinea pigs for a chance at a winning edge.

Say what you will about Greg LeMond, *nobody* does a better Jon Stewart impression!:lol:

Actually, the words "classless", "jerk", etc, are far too nice of a way to describe Armstrong. The real die-hard Armstrong fans just hate on Lemond because they can't stand the thought of him being correct. You got to have a villain for every hero. And the hero worshippers have found their villain. The real a**hole is Armstrong. Period.

So, answer me this. Do you have a racer you like and support?

Lemond suspects something like alot of people. However, the lack of proof makes him seem like a jerk to many. If a bunch of evidence proved him right he'd be praised for protecting the sport. Otherwise he's just a bitter guy.

Lemond suspects something like alot of people. However, the lack of proof makes him seem like a jerk to many. If a bunch of evidence proved him right he'd be praised for protecting the sport. Otherwise he's just a bitter guy.

Sorry, there has been plenty of proof. Riis, Tyler, Basso, operation puerto, Festina. Do you want me to go on?

Sorry, there has been plenty of proof. Riis, Tyler, Basso, operation puerto, Festina. Do you want me to go on?

This is only proof of doping in general. Not proof that Contador is doping.

Lemond raced two (?) more Tours after his last win and didn't do very well. That's when he started making excuses and pointing fingers.

Q: Who was the last Tour de France winner who won the last Tour he started?

hint - It's not Floyd.
another hint - not Eddy.

I thought Armstrong had done it but even he couldn't allow himself to quit without someone beating him first... (yet).

Coppi?

Actually, the words "classless", "jerk", etc, are far too nice of a way to describe Armstrong. The real die-hard Armstrong fans just hate on Lemond because they can't stand the thought of him being correct. You got to have a villain for every hero. And the hero worshippers have found their villain. The real a**hole is Armstrong. Period.

Here's the thing that you don't seem to get:

There are a bunch of us. Those that cheer for Lance, that don't hate Greg or his message. We hate the way he's going about trying to effect change. It's counter productive.

Well, except for his latest article. I do, in fact, dislike that he publishes a paper column calling into question a pending champions status without a single concrete fact and declaring that the burden of proof is on that athlete to prove his innocence. When every logical and reasonable individual knows that it's impossible to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt a negative . That in itself is illogical. And his only basis for his claim? Alberto climbed too fast for Greg to believe. Guess what Greg, guys continue to work at finding ways to go faster, and faster. Otherwise the 4 minute mile would have never been run. If only he would do something good for the sport, instead of continuing to vent his frustration, making himself a ***** to the media who love nothing more than inflamatory pieces.

edit: (What is an appropriate term for, someone who takes money in exchange for seedy activities, that the nannyforum won't sensor?)

http://markjberry.blogs.com/way_out_west/spliff.jpg

There's the smoke that Jens was referring to. Anyone have evidence of the bear that's going to attack Astana in the mountains? :innocent:

Greg has had every opportunity to support valid efforts to combat doping in the sport, but instead, he chooses to engage in character assassination by press conference. While he raises questions that need to be addressed, his behavior is indefensible. I'm very tired of the guy popping off without evidence. I used to really like Greg, and despise Hinault, but recently, I've come to appreciate the badger more, and the accuser, less. Most of us learned the lesson of McCarthyism a few decades ago. Someone needs to take Greg aside and explain it to him.

There's the smoke that Jens was referring to. Anyone have evidence of the bear that's going to attack Astana in the mountains? :innocent:



I wonder if she is smoking a ground up chamois. I hear that this is the new PED.;)

Five Astana's attacked by a bear in the Pyrenee's,.......then vee be smokin'!

Lemond is a complete jerk. He was my hero in the 80's when I began racing, and particularly his comeback after his accident. His 1989 season was nothing short of magical. Since those early racing days I have gone on to become a litigator and represented a party in a lawsuit brought by Lemond. I have to say that much of the awe and admiration I had for that man went right out the window during that lawsuit, as he was exposed to be an opportunistic, greedy fool.

However, I can separate the personality from the message here.

Five Astana's attacked by a bear in the Pyrenee's,.......then vee be smokin'!

Ah ... bear spray. The new performance enhancing substance. This is a reality on the GDBR.

Coppi?

Eccolo si.

Technically though, in legal terms wouldn't lemonds actions be slander or libel against LA in the legal sense. Not based on fact and damaging to character and reputation? I know it's hard to win said cases, but I think it'd worth a mention- no facts! Where's the burden of proof on lemonds argument? That's all. Let's see the proof? Court usable evidence please!

Ya Greg is a whiner, but I think the drug busts over the years have vindicated him more than anything.
These guys are as strong on the last day of a grand tour as the first. Over a 3 week tour at the efforts that they put in they should be shells of their former selves.

IIRC LeMond won the '89 tour on the final day with a record time trial. Your line of reasoning would lead to a conclusion that Lemond was doped.

tcs

IIRC LeMond won the '89 tour on the final day with a record time trial. Your line of reasoning would lead to a conclusion that Lemond was doped.

tcs

Well, consider how many conservative politicians and ministers get busted in sex/drug scandals.
I am convinced that the more a public figure rants about a vice, the more likely it is they are doing it themselves.