Professional Cycling For the Fans - Stage 12 Castelsarrasin - La Mongie

Who thinks they were being saved for tomorrow?

It is a tactic that Postal has employed in the past.

I watched most of the stage today and was a little surprised when Ullrich and Hamilton got dropped although Ullrich didn't lose as much time as he could have. I think Basso just had LA figured out on this stage and I think it was a win rather than a gift. I did notice the 2 USP guys you were talking about at various points up the climb not looking so great it has to be said, but of course thats only what I think. I'm hopeful we'll see somekind of action tomorrow from one of the other main contenders, Mayo, Ullrich, Hamilton et al tomorrow cos I'd really hate to see LA walk away with this one, but as an Ullrich fan what can you expect!

I was suprised they when they didnt have some post-race stuff like interviews. I have no interest in this Gravity Files crap


Remember, It's live, and riders aren't going to be able to or want to give interviews for several minutes at the very least. These guys need time to clean up, cool down, and inject some clean urine up their urethra into thier bladder, so they can pass the doping control. HAHAHAHAH, jus kidding, sort of.

If you watch the roadside tour later in the day, or the prime time coverage at night, they will have a lot more post race info.

Awesome race. Do you think Armstrong could have won that if he wanted or did Basso just school him :p

I think Armstrong could have turned the screws and won the stage, but at that point he was pretty well ahead of his main rivals. I don't believe he handed the stage to Basso...I'm sure he made Basso work a bit to get it. Besides, I think it's cool of Lance not get greedy...share the glory and let other riders create memorable Tour performances (just so long as they aren't overall GC contenders :-))

Armstrong said yesturday that this stage wouldn't suit him as well as tomorrow.
So this is a good sign for him.
I figured this climb really wouldn't suit Ullrich, knowing the gradient. (and the rain probably hurt him as well)
I think that Plateau de Beille will suit Armstrong better, in comparison to his climbing rivals.

This race has just started. There are three or four climbers that are very close to Armstrong on GC, that have plenty of really hard stages to come.

How about Hincapie today?
His stats: Height: 6' 3". Weight: 185 lbs.
He was dropping climbers on La Mongie!

Note Azevedo's performance as well. After all this talk that Heras would be far better...

Bad day for the team leaders... Ullrich, Heras, Hamilton all had teamates that were in quite better form.

Has OLN ever interviewed Voekler? I mean the guy's been in yellow for a week.
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I've seen interviews with Voekler on the evening replays on OLN more than once, I think.

His English isn't bad, but perhaps not strong enough to do a live interview in the morning broadcast (or maybe OLN can't muscle through the French media right after each stage, who have to be all over him).

oh, and i bet oln hasn't interviewed voeckler because he speaks no english. just a guess (i don't know that he doesn't speak english, but that would be a good reason for an english-language network not to interview him). i admire the kid. he's been dying out there, but hanging tough. anyone who make faces like that is likable, as far as i'm concerned.

OK, just to straiten the facts: I have seen a brief interview with Voeckler on OLN. That was after the second yellow stage for him or maybe the third. I admire him as well. One must not forget that there will be a young kid one day who will surprise everyone with his ability to climb, sprint etc. I hope it is Thomas. If it is not, one day somebody you don't know will show up. Every one of the today's contenders have surprised somebody when they were at the beginning.

Ullrich riding for Kloden? Who'd a thunk it?

Postal must have been screaming up those climbs. I can't believe some of the riders they dropped. And Hincapie and Landis pulling? I gotta think Noval and Beltran were sand-bagging.

Tomorrow's gonna be real interesting.

I am impressed with Mancebo - they never talk about him, yet he's always there. He could be a real threat this year if he keeps this up (except I'm not sure he'll be strong in the flat TT).

Was very surprised to see how much time was lost by Ullrich, Hamilton, et al...

oh, and i bet oln hasn't interviewed voeckler because he speaks no english. just a guess (i don't know that he doesn't speak english,

I'm pretty sure I saw hime being interviewed at the end of Wed or Thursday's stage. His English was acceptable but broken.

Today we saw the real power of US Postal - the "all-for-one" attitude. Two of Ullrich's teammates crossed the line ahead of him. Four of Hamilton's teammates finished ahead of him. That's the difference in the makeup of those teams. The posties did their pulls, then dropped back. Even if Armstrong had cracked, not a single postie would have crossed the line ahead of him. Armstrong's talent makes him the favorite, but his team makes him nearly unbeatable.

Today we saw the real power of US Postal - the "all-for-one" attitude. Two of Ullrich's teammates crossed the line ahead of him. Four of Hamilton's teammates finished ahead of him. That's the difference in the makeup of those teams. The posties did their pulls, then dropped back. Even if Armstrong had cracked, not a single postie would have crossed the line ahead of him. Armstrong's talent makes him the favorite, but his team makes him nearly unbeatable.


Wow! That was an awesome climb up La Mongie by Armstrong. I'm very much an Ullrich fan but can't help thinking that everyone is riding for second place now bar accidents/illness.

I couldn't believe that Ullrich was dropped so early in the mountain stages..doesn't bode too good for him for rest of the Tour. I think a lot of credit has to go to Hincapie,Azevedo and all the other Postie guys. They pretty much used the same tactics as they used last year up the Alpe D'Huez.

Ullrich will never admit he's lost the Tour but deep down he must know he ain't gonna beat Armstrong.

Smart riding Lance!

Wow! That was an awesome climb up La Mongie by Armstrong. I'm very much an Ullrich fan but can't help thinking that everyone is riding for second place now bar accidents/illness.

I couldn't believe that Ullrich was dropped so early in the mountain stages..doesn't bode too good for him for rest of the Tour. I think a lot of credit has to go to Hincapie,Azevedo and all the other Postie guys. They pretty much used the same tactics as they used last year up the Alpe D'Huez.

Ullrich will never admit he's lost the Tour but deep down he must know he ain't gonna beat Armstrong.

Smart riding Lance!


btw, I don't think Ullrich blew..it was just the Posties propelling Lance up the road. Another reason to back this was that all the other big hitters ie. Simoni, Hamilton and Mayo were dropped as well.

Anyone notice the "ETA" drawings on the road? That sickened me a little


I am impressed with Mancebo - they never talk about him, yet he's always there.


IMO, that is how it was for Basso in 2002 and 2003


btw, I don't think Ullrich blew..it was just the Posties propelling Lance up the road. Another reason to back this was that all the other big hitters ie. Simoni, Hamilton and Mayo were dropped as well.

USPS was pulling everyone. Not only Armstrong. Armstrong and all of his rivals. The names you mentioned couldn't keep up, but Armstrong could.

You can't carry a rider up a mountain. The USPS lead made the race tougher, and since Armstrong was stronger, he kept with the pace.

btw, I don't think Ullrich blew..it was just the Posties propelling Lance up the road. Another reason to back this was that all the other big hitters ie. Simoni, Hamilton and Mayo were dropped as well.


Oh Jan blew up and blew up big. You could see it all over his face. I did notice that there were two Posties with Jans group....just keeping an eye on him perhaps? If you don't think the USPS is THE best team I think today would have to change your mind. On both climbs today the Posties set a torrid pace and hurt everyone who mattered. Lance may be better than a Jan Ullirch or a Tyler Hamilton by small margins but the team is better buy huge chunks.

Unfortunately for Jan the loss of Vinokerov (sp) has hurt the team and Jan's chances. You don't give a man like Lance Armstrong on a team like USPS 4 minutes and expect to get it back. Lance and his team would have to completely fall apart over the next several days for that to happen.

Oh Jan blew up and blew up big. You could see it all over his face. I did notice that there were two Posties with Jans group....just keeping an eye on him perhaps? If you don't think the USPS is THE best team I think today would have to change your mind. On both climbs today the Posties set a torrid pace and hurt everyone who mattered. Lance may be better than a Jan Ullirch or a Tyler Hamilton by small margins but the team is better buy huge chunks.

Unfortunately for Jan the loss of Vinokerov (sp) has hurt the team and Jan's chances. You don't give a man like Lance Armstrong on a team like USPS 4 minutes and expect to get it back. Lance and his team would have to completely fall apart over the next several days for that to happen.


Another big point is that they have Beltran and Rubeira in reserve. Think they were given a day off today. There's no other way to put it except that USPS are sooo much stronger than any other team, even without Heras. I think a lot of the pain on Ullrich's face was all the effort in limiting loss. I agree Armstrong is in far superior shape and a lot stronger than anyone in the field over a 3 week Tour.

What's happened to Botero? He came in about 20 minutes down the field.

Another big point is that they have Beltran and Rubeira in reserve. Think they were given a day off today. There's no other way to put it except that USPS are sooo much stronger than any other team, even without Heras. I think a lot of the pain on Ullrich's face was all the effort in limiting loss. I agree Armstrong is in far superior shape and a lot stronger than anyone in the field over a 3 week Tour.

What's happened to Botero? He came in about 20 minutes down the field.


Regarding your point on the two Posties coming in with Ullrich, I think you'll find that they were riding on the wheels of Guerini and Ullrich throughout the climb in order to extract every last bit of energy from them as they were working together to bridge the gap.

Regarding your point on the two Posties coming in with Ullrich, I think you'll find that they were riding on the wheels of Guerini and Ullrich throughout the climb in order to extract every last bit of energy from them as they were working together to bridge the gap.

Just curious, how does riding on someone's wheel extract energy from them?

Anyone know the name of Postals team doctor?

Is it the same Pedro Celaya, He used to be the team doctor for ONCE, as far back as 1998.

Awesome race. Do you think Armstrong could have won that if he wanted or did Basso just school him :p

I think that Armstrong would have loved to take the 20 sec. bonus if he could but as he looked so miserable and suffering like saying "look what I have to put up with to win this race" or something like that, while Basso truely was the DOMINATOR of this climb with a sweet smile of a happy man!!!.

Regarding your point on the two Posties coming in with Ullrich, I think you'll find that they were riding on the wheels of Guerini and Ullrich throughout the climb in order to extract every last bit of energy from them as they were working together to bridge the gap.

i know one was acevedo. he likely just caught on with them after he pulled off the front. maybe watching jan, but likely just stuck with the pace that suited them. oh, and botero was having some sort of foot issue. he was at the race doctor's car with his foot up into the thing (at around 20 MPH) for some time.

and i'm glad i'm not the only one who noticed trikki and chechu didn't do anything today. ;)

From Yahoo:

Despite losing pace to the American, Ullrich also promised to work for his team mate Andreas Kloeden.

"If I realise I can't win, I'm ready to sacrifice my chances for the best rider in the team," said the T-Mobile team leader, who looked Armstrong's main rival at the start of the gruelling race having finishing runner-up in the Tour five times.

"I was cold during the stage and disturbed by the changing conditions. But Lance was impressive."

Good for Ulle. This man has absolutely no ego problems. Win or lose, he rocks.

Just curious, how does riding on someone's wheel extract energy from them?


cos a rider at the very front of a pack has no shield from the wind, he is riding and creating a slipstream for the rider behind who is saving between 25-30% riding in the draft created by the front cyclist. This in turn means a heart rate for the front rider of at least 20% extra and the rider who is drafting will have a heart rate of about 40% less.

Just curious, how does riding on someone's wheel extract energy from them?


cos a rider at the very front of a pack has no shield from the wind, he is riding and creating a slipstream for the rider behind who is saving between 25-30% riding in the draft created by the front cyclist. This in turn means a heart rate for the front rider of at least 20% extra and the rider who is drafting will have a heart rate of about 40% less.

Wait a minute. If I'm riding along solo and someone pulls up behind me, this does not extract energy from me. I work no harder riding alone than I do if someones on my wheel.

I think don was joking.

cos a rider at the very front of a pack has no shield from the wind, he is riding and creating a slipstream for the rider behind who is saving between 25-30% riding in the draft created by the front cyclist. This in turn means a heart rate for the front rider of at least 20% extra and the rider who is drafting will have a heart rate of about 40% less.

This is true on flat stretches. However, I've gotta believe that drafting is far, far less effective on a climb. I have friends who I ride with who can stay with me on a flat when I'm going all-out (because of the wind-shielding effect), but I'll drop them pretty quickly if I'm putting forth the same effort on a steep climb. I think that the importance of teammates on big climbs is more for pacemaking and moral support.

cos a rider at the very front of a pack has no shield from the wind, he is riding and creating a slipstream for the rider behind who is saving between 25-30% riding in the draft created by the front cyclist. This in turn means a heart rate for the front rider of at least 20% extra and the rider who is drafting will have a heart rate of about 40% less.


Wouldn't a rider be expending the same amount of energy regardless of whether or not someone was on his wheel?

And are you sure there is a 25-30% energy savings for a rider following a wheel on a climb of 6-10%? I know that there may be a psychological advantage for the rider following on a climb, but there is an insignificant draft effect while climbing ergo an insignificant energy savings.

Possibly the USPS riders were following so that they could respond to any changes in effort on the part of the T-Mobile riders?

FWIW, a 40% reduction in heart rate at 180 bpm(not an unreasonable rate to assume Jan or Guiseppi might have considering the effort) would be equivalent to 72 bpm. That would mean that the following rider had a heart rate of 108, or well below what their heart rate would be on an easy steady tempo training ride.

Just some thoughts.

Actually, it makes perfect sense to conclude that drafting is less effective on climbs. Otherwise, every day would be a pack sprint, and Robbie McEwen would be the leader in the GC!

Wouldn't a rider be expending the same amount of energy regardless of whether or not someone was on his wheel?


Yes


Actually, it makes perfect sense to conclude that drafting is less effective on climbs. Otherwise, every day would be a pack sprint, and Robbie McEwen would be the leader in the GC!

Drafting can only do so much. You are correct that it's less effective at slower speeds. Even if it were as effective, it's not going to be enough to turn a poor climber into one who can hang with any climbing pack.

Wait a minute. If I'm riding along solo and someone pulls up behind me, this does not extract energy from me.

In fact it is oposite. When two riders are drafting each other, the one behind will have it easier and that is obvious. But the one at the front will benefit too! This is because the rider at the back brakes the air turbulence that normaly happens behind a cyclist. Not unlike the extention on the TT helmet.

Actually, it makes perfect sense to conclude that drafting is less effective on climbs. Otherwise, every day would be a pack sprint, and Robbie McEwen would be the leader in the GC!


The figures I quoted may have been little high but I do know that when climbing or riding on the flat, the rear wheel of the guy riding in front creates a minor turbulence which you're front wheel rides into so in effect the rider at the front has to use more energy to keep the same speed, so in effect the rider behind is feeding on the turbulence you would cause. With that in mind, the rider at the front will naturally have a higher heart rate in order to maintain their desired speed.

...and Robbie McEwen would be the leader in the GC!

Oh the horror!...for some fans at least. ;) :)

In fact it is oposite. When two riders are drifting each other, the one behind will have it easier and that is obvious. But the one at the front will benefit too! This is because the rider at the back brakes the air turbulence that normaly happens behind a cyclist. Not unlike the extention on the TT helmet.

I knew there was a reason I prefer riding with others. :D

In fact it is oposite. When two riders are drifting each other, the one behind will have it easier and that is obvious. But the one at the front will benefit too! This is because the rider at the back brakes the air turbulence that normaly happens behind a cyclist. Not unlike the extention on the TT helmet.


You must have posted this while I was replying. DJ1960, this is exactly what I been refering to.

Of course, a rider must have the legs etc. to be able to climb efficiently and to be able to hang on to the pace but riding behind some one does conserve energy...wind or no wind because of the air turbulence.

Wait a minute...I think don was joking.

I've been outed. :)

Here is some theory about the topic

http://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/aerodynamics2.html

http://rses.anu.edu.au/~david/bikes/

btw, I don't think Ullrich blew..it was just the Posties propelling Lance up the road.

Oh no... Ullrich just cracked. He's not himself this year, it seems. After all, Ullrich was riding behind USPS *also*. He could have been "pulled up" by the riders in front of him just like Lance, if he'd had the strength.

The importance of Lance's team is overestimated. USPS are good, but Lance is just better than anyone else.

Perhaps last year, '03, things were close enough that USPS' time trial made the difference But otherwise Lance's team hasn't been the reason he's won five tours. Lance has just been better.

The figures I quoted may have been little high but I do know that when climbing or riding on the flat, the rear wheel of the guy riding in front creates a minor turbulence which you're front wheel rides into so in effect the rider at the front has to use more energy to keep the same speed, so in effect the rider behind is feeding on the turbulence you would cause. With that in mind, the rider at the front will naturally have a higher heart rate in order to maintain their desired speed.

What are you saying? If A is in front of B, are you saying A must work harder than B to go the same speed as B? Or are you saying that A goes slower than *A* would go alone?

If the former, you're right. If the latter, you're wrong.

When two riders ride tandem, the rider in front actually goes a little faster than he would do alone. The rider in the back benefits even more, of course.

What are you saying? If A is in front of B, are you saying A must work harder than B to go the same speed as B? Or are you saying that A goes slower than *A* would go alone?

If the former, you're right. If the latter, you're wrong.

When two riders ride tandem, the rider in front actually goes a little faster than he would do alone. The rider in the back benefits even more, of course.


The former..an example - If I'm doing 20mph at the front at a HR of 170bpm and the rider behind me riding on my wheel at same speed may have HR of 140 bpm, because B would be sucking on the turbulence of my rear wheel so A would be riding to overcome the turbulence of the rear wheel of A and the front wheel of B, so A would have higher HR hence use more energy.

Ahh yes, good race. Lance finally made his move and is now #2 in GC. Basso just rode exceptionally well beating LA mano a mano. Tomorrow is another good mountain stage: MORE drama!!! :fight:

Just a quick question for all you out there in TV land. When Basso and LA seperated from the others in the final 3km, did Basso do any pace setting up to his teammate Sastre? Or did LA do all the pace setting? Thx.

Has OLN ever interviewed Voekler? I mean the guy's been in yellow for a week.

What race have you guys been watching!?!? I've seen at least a couple interviews and I've been watching primarily the live coverage on TiVo.

-murray

Just a quick question for all you out there in TV land. When Basso and LA seperated from the others in the final 3km, did Basso do any pace setting up to his teammate Sastre? Or did LA do all the pace setting? Thx.


Don't recall, but I'm pretty sure Basso was following.

My take on the discussions:

-Yesterday, when I heard about the hot weather, I thought "Bad for Lance". When I heard about the rain today, I thought "See you later Jan" :p :p

-USPS rode the legs off most of the former contenders. Lance had the talent to go in for the kill.

-What happened to Mayo? According to some comments I've read, he was going to smoke LA in the mountains. I guess that's the difference between a one week race and a 3 week race.

-The USPS guys latching on the Jan's group doesn't make them work any harder, but it helps demoralize them. Plus, it's simply easier to maintain a pace with other riders regardless of draft.

-To markt, I think we all understand drafting. Now, go explain it to Al Trautwig :lol: :lol:

-Maybe Chechu and Beltran had a bad day. It seems all the climbers, save a couple, had a bad day.

-For all the hype about all of the contenders, Lance made it look awfully easy today.

-Lance didn't give Basso the win, but he didn't work too hard for it, either. Basso did some work so Lance didn't feel bad about taking second. Anyone who thought Lance was "fried" is a fool. It simply wasn't worth a major effort to sprint for the win.

Bring on stage 12!

-murray

http://img5.exs.cx/img5/4122/basarm1.jpg


http://img5.exs.cx/img5/6298/tugboat1.jpg


http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/updateframesetcall?openform&04tourSt12

Basso looks like he is almost smiling in all of these.

My take on the discussions: Bring on stage 12!-murray

Ugh...today was stage 12. ;)

And I think Tyler was doggin' it today. Either that or he was "walkin' the dog'. :)

And no wonder Lance tried to hire Basso for USPS. :)

-To markt, I think we all understand drafting. Now, go explain it to Al Trautwig


LOL that's some funny s#$t!!!!!!!!!!!!

Smoothie sometimes the look of pain can be decieving. My little girl will be laughing in the other room and it sounds like crying. Basso was hurting, maybe not as much as Lance but he was hurting. Let's not forget that LA is looking in the longview. He's had stage wins and Basso has not that's some big motovation!


Crank it up I notice the Cinelli logo you ride a Cinelli also?

Ugh...today was stage 12. ;)

Opps :rolleyes: I meant Bring on Stange 13!

-murray

Robbie rode the stage on one wheel:

Robbie rode the stage on one wheel:


That's great! Where are you guys getting all the cool pix of the tour?

I think Smoothies' link is in his post. The Robbie photog came from www.Cyclingnews.com