Professional Cycling For the Fans - Your take on the most...

Most disastrous: Cadel Evans. A terrible TTT, abandoned by his team after his outburst, gave up on the mountains ... a disastrous TdF for the irascible Australian.

Luckiest winner (in 2008): Carlos Sastre. LA was right in a way, I guess - TdF 2008 was a fluke to some. Sastre was a one-note rider who got lucky in a break. But with the full Astana in force, and the Schlecks no longer supporting him, Sastre reveals his true level.

Most improved: Bradley Wiggins no doubt. Amazing improvement climbing.

Most inspiring: Beppu & Arashiro. The first Asians to complete the TdF I believe.

While Sastre showed in this Tour that last year's may have been luck, I think Vande Velde showed that his 4th last year was no fluke. To finish 8th after such a serious injury only a couple of months prior is pretty impressive. I'm really curious to see how he would have done this year had he been able to fully prepare.

Most inspiring: Beppu & Arashiro. The first Asians to complete the TdF I believe.

I don't think this is true?? Vinokourov is Asian. I'm sure many asians have completed Le Tour.

I don't think this is true?? Vinokourov is Asian. I'm sure many asians have completed Le Tour.

He's more Central Asian, and I won't take that as Asian. I don't think any Chinese, Indian, Korean, or South East Asians have ever taken part in TdF.

Most disastrous: Cadel Evans. A terrible TTT, abandoned by his team after his outburst, gave up on the mountains ... a disastrous TdF for the irascible Australian.

Luckiest winner (in 2008): Carlos Sastre. LA was right in a way, I guess - TdF 2008 was a fluke to some. Sastre was a one-note rider who got lucky in a break. But with the full Astana in force, and the Schlecks no longer supporting him, Sastre reveals his true level.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/botto/bf/ultimatefacepalm.gif


Most improved: Bradley Wiggins no doubt. Amazing improvement climbing.

Most inspiring: Beppu & Arashiro. The first Asians to complete the TdF I believe.

incorrect.

http://cyclinghalloffame.org/riders/pics/abdou_d2.jpghttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44016000/jpg/_44016347_tour6.jpghttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44867000/jpg/_44867343_-151.jpghttp://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/beeldbank/Andrey%20Kashechkin1.jpg

I don't think this is true?? Vinokourov is Asian. I'm sure many asians have completed Le Tour.

I think he means ethnically asian, not geographically. Vinokurov appears to be of caucasian stock. If he has asian blood in him, it's hiding well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/botto/bf/ultimatefacepalm.gif



incorrect.

http://cyclinghalloffame.org/riders/pics/abdou_d2.jpghttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44016000/jpg/_44016347_tour6.jpghttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44867000/jpg/_44867343_-151.jpghttp://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/beeldbank/Andrey%20Kashechkin1.jpg

You're not Asian. Ask anyone in the Asia-Pacific if a Kazakh or Turkmen is Asian and you'll get a no. Anthropologically, of course, they are. But as Proximo pointed out, they're more of Caucasian stock and physicality.

And seriously, speak a word to make your point. Do you have difficulties typing or is facepalm the only response you have toe everything?

Grow up.

If you are born in Asia, then you are asian. You are confusing Asian with the stereotypical 'asian' term used to describe people from the Mongoloid race or Oriental culture.

Yes Beppu & Arashiro are the first Japanese people to complete the tour but not the first Asian.

Its kinda like saying that if you have to be black to be an African. White people born in Africa are still Africans.

You're not Asian. Ask anyone in the Asia-Pacific if a Kazakh or Turkmen is Asian and you'll get a no. Anthropologically, of course, they are. But as Proximo pointed out, they're more of Caucasian stock and physicality.

And seriously, speak a word to make your point. Do you have difficulties typing or is facepalm the only response you have toe everything?

Grow up.

geography isn't your strong suit, is it? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question)

Its kinda like saying that if you have to be black to be an African. White people born in Africa are still Africans.

Africa is relatively isolated a continent as opposed to the whole of Central Asia. My friends from Asia and I don't see Central Asian riders as Asian, and neither do most Asians. Its not scientifically accurate, as you pointed out, and its more about skin color and physical attributes. You're right - I definitely inch more towards the Orient side, and for good reason too. Consider the context: The TdF is a physical event, and it has been argued by some that Asians are weaker physically when it comes to endurance events. Not so the Central Asians. So when I see Asians of Orient roots compelting the race, I am impressed. Its a matter of ethnic pride, in a way. I'd have preferred a Chinese rider to a Japanese rider, of course, but hey - they're good enough for now.

I understand your pride and their feat is incredible. However you still are incorrect in not calling Central Asian riders Asian. You are confusing the Mongoloid Race with any people group born on a continent. I spent time in Russia along the border of Europe and Asia and they made a difference between those who were european and those who were asian although they both were white russians. You need to broaden your perspective.

If you are born in Asia, then you are asian. You are confusing Asian with the stereotypical 'asian' term used to describe people from the Mongoloid race or Oriental culture.

Yes Beppu & Arashiro are the first Japanese people to complete the tour but not the first Asian.

Since when was Japan considered not part of Asia? Has continental drift pushed Japan into the Americas?

I understand your pride and their feat is incredible. However you still are incorrect in not calling Central Asian riders Asian. You are confusing the Mongoloid Race with any people group born on a continent. I spent time in Russia along the border of Europe and Asia and they made a difference between those who were european and those who were asian although they both were white russians. You need to broaden your perspective.

True, but like I said, remember the context. I'm not using the term Asian in a vacuum - I mean it in a physical, sporting sense. The Central Asians are far stronger than Oriental Asians physically, and are almost like Caucasians in that respect. Going by the continental argument, then Russians are arguably Asians as well, but that line of argument is pointless when we're talking about physical strength.

My point is that the TdF is one of the toughest, if not the toughest, sporting event in the world. For an Asian who's of the branch typically regarded as physically weaker i.e. the Orients, completing the race is a feat. If all Asians were as strong as the Central Asians, then of course I won't mention this at all. Please try to understand this from our perspective, as 'Asians'. You're clearly seeing this very scientifically (and correctly, I might add), but unfortunately that's missing the point in this case. I don't want to use the term 'yellow-skinned'.

most disastrous: Cadel evans. A terrible ttt, abandoned by his team after his outburst, gave up on the mountains ... A disastrous tdf for the irascible australian.

luckiest winner (in 2008): Carlos sastre. La was right in a way, i guess - tdf 2008 was a fluke to some. Sastre was a one-note rider who got lucky in a break. but with the full astana in force, and the schlecks no longer supporting him, sastre reveals his true level.

Most improved: Bradley wiggins no doubt. Amazing improvement climbing.

Most inspiring: Beppu & arashiro. The first asians to complete the tdf i believe.

wtf!?

Africa is relatively isolated a continent as opposed to the whole of Central Asia. My friends from Asia and I don't see Central Asian riders as Asian

you, and your bigoted friends, are still incorrect.


and neither do most Asians. Its not scientifically accurate, as you pointed out, and its more about skin color and physical attributes. You're right - I definitely inch more towards the Orient side, and for good reason too. Consider the context: The TdF is a physical event, and it has been argued by some that Asians are weaker physically when it comes to endurance events. Not so the Central Asians. So when I see Asians of Orient roots compelting the race, I am impressed. Its a matter of ethnic pride, in a way. I'd have preferred a Chinese rider to a Japanese rider, of course, but hey - they're good enough for now.

uninformed generalizations rock! :thumb:

come on guys, just say they were the first yellow people to complete the tour. that should end any possible arguments over race, right?

Most disastrous: Cadel Evans. A terrible TTT, abandoned by his team after his outburst, gave up on the mountains ... a disastrous TdF for the irascible Australian.

Luckiest winner (in 2008): Carlos Sastre. LA was right in a way, I guess - TdF 2008 was a fluke to some. Sastre was a one-note rider who got lucky in a break. But with the full Astana in force, and the Schlecks no longer supporting him, Sastre reveals his true level.

Most improved: Bradley Wiggins no doubt. Amazing improvement climbing.

Most inspiring: Beppu & Arashiro. The first Asians to complete the TdF I believe.

Boonen gave Cadel a run for the most disastrous title.

you, and your bigoted friends, are still incorrect.



uninformed generalizations rock! :thumb:

Are you Asian? Or are you going to label all Asian Pacific people bigots? What are you, the resident scholar? Learn to write a complete paragraph, for God's sake.

come on guys, just say they were the first yellow people to complete the tour. that should end any possible arguments over race, right?

That would be the most accurate label, but if I said that, it could be deemed racist by, well, yellow-skinned people. But of course, certain white people won't have a problem with it, because they see all Asians as alike.

Are you Asian?

irrelevant.


Or are you going to label all Asian Pacific people bigots?

at the moment just you and your "friends."


What are you, the resident scholar?

compared to you? yes.


Learn to write a complete paragraph, for God's sake.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/botto/bf/687fea91677be9103defb8d.gif

Beppu & Arashiro were the first Japanese to complete the Tour. They were not the first Japanese to start the tour.

Beppu was part of a kick-ass lead around the Champs today. I bet his family, friends, teammates and countrymen (not to mention sponsors) were rightfully proud of that.

If someone is of Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese or any other that feels a connection to the Japanese and they feel some pride in what Beppu and Arashiro did the past three weeks then that is great, too. I have a German friend who grew up in Japan and he was excited that these two guys were in the race because of his connection to the country.

irrelevant.



at the moment just you and your "friends."



compared to you? yes.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/botto/bf/687fea91677be9103defb8d.gif

Look, resident Wind Up Merchant, you barely contribute to any thread, and you seem to enjoy plastering your FPs all over mine. This is getting ridiculous - If you want to make a point, do as you would in a real argument. State your case, make your stand. Can't you even do that? What IS wrong with you.

Look, resident Wind Up Merchant, you barely contribute to any thread, and you seem to enjoy plastering your FPs all over mine. This is getting ridiculous - If you want to make a point, do as you would in a real argument. State your case, make your stand. Can't you even do that? What IS wrong with you.

i already have (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=9356564&postcount=5). duh.

Tom Boonen was a big dissapointment to me. With all the drama just to make the start then he lays an egg.

True, but like I said, remember the context. I'm not using the term Asian in a vacuum - I mean it in a physical, sporting sense. The Central Asians are far stronger than Oriental Asians physically, and are almost like Caucasians in that respect. Going by the continental argument, then Russians are arguably Asians as well, but that line of argument is pointless when we're talking about physical strength.

My point is that the TdF is one of the toughest, if not the toughest, sporting event in the world. For an Asian who's of the branch typically regarded as physically weaker i.e. the Orients, completing the race is a feat. If all Asians were as strong as the Central Asians, then of course I won't mention this at all. Please try to understand this from our perspective, as 'Asians'. You're clearly seeing this very scientifically (and correctly, I might add), but unfortunately that's missing the point in this case. I don't want to use the term 'yellow-skinned'.

It's an interesting way to use political correctness to wrap bigotry.

The point that I'm trying to make is that whether a person is from Central Asia or Southeast Asia is pointless. THey are all asians.

Now to your point, yes they are the first Oriental Asian or Mongoloid Asians to finish Le Tour not the first Asians to complete the race. By saying they are not asian is incorrect and elitist. Mexicans, Canadiens and Americans are all North Americans. By your standards, Mexicans shouldn't be classified as North Americans because they aren't white. This is a falacy to believe this way as your way of thinking is a falacy. First Oriental Asians, YES. First Asians, NO. Be proud of your heritage and hopefully these Oriental Asians will inspire others to take up cycling.




True, but like I said, remember the context. I'm not using the term Asian in a vacuum - I mean it in a physical, sporting sense. The Central Asians are far stronger than Oriental Asians physically, and are almost like Caucasians in that respect. Going by the continental argument, then Russians are arguably Asians as well, but that line of argument is pointless when we're talking about physical strength.

My point is that the TdF is one of the toughest, if not the toughest, sporting event in the world. For an Asian who's of the branch typically regarded as physically weaker i.e. the Orients, completing the race is a feat. If all Asians were as strong as the Central Asians, then of course I won't mention this at all. Please try to understand this from our perspective, as 'Asians'. You're clearly seeing this very scientifically (and correctly, I might add), but unfortunately that's missing the point in this case. I don't want to use the term 'yellow-skinned'.

Since when was Japan considered not part of Asia? Has continental drift pushed Japan into the Americas?

Read the other posts, the argument is whether the japanese riders are the first asians to finish the tour, which is incorrect.

It's an interesting way to use political correctness to wrap bigotry.

I doubt I'm qualified as a bigot. My country is nowhere near the size or influence of the Central Asian states.

The point that I'm trying to make is that whether a person is from Central Asia or Southeast Asia is pointless. THey are all asians.

Now to your point, yes they are the first Oriental Asian or Mongoloid Asians to finish Le Tour not the first Asians to complete the race. By saying they are not asian is incorrect and elitist. Mexicans, Canadiens and Americans are all North Americans. By your standards, Mexicans shouldn't be classified as North Americans because they aren't white. This is a falacy to believe this way as your way of thinking is a falacy. First Oriental Asians, YES. First Asians, NO. Be proud of your heritage and hopefully these Oriental Asians will inspire others to take up cycling.

Like I said, you're right scientifically - I agree with you on that. But face it - there are some anthropological truths that slip under the radar. People are different, even within the same continent. And that difference is manifested in cultural, religious, linguistic, social, color - and in this case, physical characteristics. Its not a pretty truth, but it IS the truth. Even within China, the Central Asian minorities are seen as a different ethnic group, and hardly Asian. Asiatic, yes. But Asian to most still mean the Orient stock, as you rightly pointed out. For that reason, despite all our historic antagonisms, a Chinese would feel more affinity to a Japanese when it comes to something collectively 'Asian'. It might be bigotry, it might be prejudice - but us Asians do feel that way. In any case, riders such as Vonokourov or the Tashkent Terror are more Caucasian physically - so their performances in the Tour hardly has any ramifications on Asia ex-Central Asia. But seeing a yellow-skinned (the term posters here seem to prefer, despite my misgivings) rider complete the Tour and even put up a fight in the Champs Elysse - now that's a different thing altogether. Its an affinity of sorts. To use your example, an white American kid will probably identify more with a European rider than a Mexican, even though North America is home to the US, Canada, and Mexico.

By this argument too, it can be said that the Japanese and Koreans hail from the same stock as the Chinese. Thus, the affinity.

Yes, but identity is different. Yes a white american kid would probably identify more closely with a white european from Britain than with a mexican, but that doesn't mean that mexicans are not north americans!

Idenity has nothing to do with it!


Like I said, you're right scientifically - I agree with you on that. But face it - there are some anthropological truths that slip under the radar. People are different, even within the same continent. And that difference is manifested in cultural, religious, linguistic, social, color - and in this case, physical characteristics. Its not a pretty truth, but it IS the truth. Even within China, the Central Asian minorities are seen as a different ethnic group, and hardly Asian. Asiatic, yes. But Asian to most still mean the Orient stock, as you rightly pointed out. For that reason, despite all our historic antagonisms, a Chinese would feel more affinity to a Japanese when it comes to something collectively 'Asian'. It might be bigotry, it might be prejudice - but us Asians do feel that way. In any case, riders such as Vonokourov or the Tashkent Terror are more Caucasian physically - so their performances in the Tour hardly has any ramifications on Asia ex-Central Asia. But seeing a yellow-skinned (the term posters here seem to prefer, despite my misgivings) rider complete the Tour and even put up a fight in the Champs Elysse - now that's a different thing altogether. Its an affinity of sorts. To use your example, an white American kid will probably identify more with a European rider than a Mexican, even though North America is home to the US, Canada, and Mexico.

By this argument too, it can be said that the Japanese and Koreans hail from the same stock as the Chinese. Thus, the affinity.

Yes, but identity is different. Yes a white american kid would probably identify more closely with a white european from Britain than with a mexican, but that doesn't mean that mexicans are not north americans!

Idenity has nothing to do with it!

Well I think that's the consensus on the issue then. Jesus, this thread was supposed to be about who disappointed and who caught the eye in this year's Tour, not this stuff!

Thank god you made legit and sensible arguments, unlike some posters.

Ask the government if coming from Asia without having the stereotypical Asian attributes makes you Asian.

Tom Boonen was a big dissapointment to me. With all the drama just to make the start then he lays an egg.


Me too.

Most disappointing - Tom Boonen

Most drop off after winning the Giro - Denis Menchov, it likes he just said "screw it."

Most under the radar team with good results - Liquigas: KOM, 2 riders in top 10, 2 of top 3 young riders

.... you barely contribute to any thread

MonoSierra ... Why do you bother replying to the drivel posted by botto? If you see the name on the left, skip the post (they're just like howzit's). Look at the next one.

Asian

/ayshn, -&ulzh;n/

• noun a person from Asia or a person of Asian descent.

• adjective relating to Asia.

— USAGE In Britain Asian is used to refer to people who come from (or whose parents came from) the Indian subcontinent, while in North America it is used to refer to people from the Far East.


I spent time in Russia along the border of Europe and Asia and they made a difference between those who were european and those who were asian although they both were white russians. You need to broaden your perspective.
Been there. Also have friensd who are russian, kazakh, iranian, lebanese, turkish, etc, and none would identify themselves foremost as "asian". get over the semantics and get with the times.

would have to go with skil-shimano & lampre. barely registered on the radar screen; a couple of moments here & there. after claiming the team classifications at the giro & tour, will astana also
win it at the vuelta? anyone know if a team has won all 3 gt team classifications in the same
year?

MonoSierra ... Why do you bother replying to the drivel posted by botto? If you see the name on the left, skip the post (they're just like howzit's). Look at the next one.

Sigh, you're right. Some people just drive me nuts. I'll heed your word next time.

Most disappointing crash-outs:

Jens Voight, for obvious reasons. He rides with a lot of heart, and his crash was just nasty.

Levi Leipheimer - I was looking forward to seeing what he could do in the later mountain stages.

Sigh, you're right. Some people just drive me nuts. I'll heed your word next time.

you'll get over it.

The point that I'm trying to make is that whether a person is from Central Asia or Southeast Asia is pointless. THey are all asians.

Now to your point, yes they are the first Oriental Asian or Mongoloid Asians to finish Le Tour not the first Asians to complete the race. By saying they are not asian is incorrect and elitist. Mexicans, Canadiens and Americans are all North Americans. By your standards, Mexicans shouldn't be classified as North Americans because they aren't white. This is a falacy to believe this way as your way of thinking is a falacy. First Oriental Asians, YES. First Asians, NO. Be proud of your heritage and hopefully these Oriental Asians will inspire others to take up cycling.

Not all Canadiens (http://canadiens.nhl.com/team/app?service=page&page=TeamPlayers&type=roster) are North Americans.

Not all Canadiens (http://canadiens.nhl.com/team/app?service=page&page=TeamPlayers&type=roster) are North Americans.

Best response to this ridiculous discussion.

Most derailed thread - This one

Disastorous: Evans and Boonen, hands down. It was disastorous for Levi as well considering he was well placed on GC with the ITT still to come. How about team Quick Step? Who?

Most improved: Besides Wiggins who would also fit into the "most surprising" category, I'd say Nibali. He is going to be a force - excellent climber and not too bad ITT. And Liquigas is a top-notch outfit.

Most impressed by: Cavendish and team Columbia-HTC. This type of dominance is rare in sports. Contador's ITT was very impressive and his accelerations on climbs are superhuman. I think Garmin getting 2 in the top ten and 2nd on Team GC was impressive...though no stage wins.

Most inspired by: Lance. Everybody doubted him and he was on the podium...nice work. I'm 36 and just getting into racing this year, so Lance doing what he did at age 38 is very inspiring to me.

There is some hilarious late nineteenth-early twentieth century pseudo-science in this thread. I'm just sayin' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism).

Cool it with the name calling. The community guidelines are still in effect in this subforum. Thank you.

Luckiest winner (in 2008): Carlos Sastre. LA was right in a way, I guess - TdF 2008 was a fluke to some. Sastre was a one-note rider who got lucky in a break. But with the full Astana in force, and the Schlecks no longer supporting him, Sastre reveals his true level.

To some degree this is true, but you are selling Sastre short. If you change the race a little by elimination the TTT and add a couple more uphill mountain finishes then Sastre would have most likely finished in the top 5-6. Assuming that he was in top form, which he may not have been this year.