Advocacy & Safety - soooo.... i went for my first group ride this weekend

Hey guys I need your opinnion on some trafic advice, while out riding on my first group ride today we were being led by our local bike shop owner and all around nice guy. but I only had one beef with his riding style. whenever we would come up to a stop sign. we would all just blow through it. Now we were safe we didnt do this right infront of any cars at a 4 way stop. or anything so its not like we cheated any motorists out of their turn at a light or at a stop sign. (we did not however run any lights) the only time i had a problem was we were coming up to a stop sign and with a car behind us and we blew it. So should i feel bad or should i just keep on riding as long as i dont do anything like that infront of a motorist or cop.

THANKS
Sean Scott

This is only one of several issues I encounter in my semiweekly group rides. Normal traffic right-of-way rules get bent by the question of whether a peleton is a single traffic object or a collection of separately responsible individuals. If you are going to stop when everyone else is going, make sure you have a good size bubble around yourself and that you signal your intentions for those behind and for any cross traffic. I certainly do not have all the answers on group riding etiquette.

I do not know of any adult groups that stop at every sign.

In most areas, group leaders are at a premium. You might want to consider organizing your own rides.

I don't like group rides in part for this reason. There seems to develop a herd/mob mentality that gets people to do things they wouldn't normally because of the pressure of being in the group.

There's no law anywhere in the country that permits a group of cyclists to behave like a herd or swarm... Every rider is individually repsonsible for obeying the rules of the road, following traffice signals, and clearing/yielding right-of-way when necessary.

Most mass event rides will coordinate with the local officials to provide traffic control to move large packs of cyclists through intersections en masse. Just because you've got that sort of privilege on the Tour de Whatever ride, you usually don't have it on your local weekend group ride. You ride with the flow of traffic, and follow the signals like any other driver.

There was a discussion thread here a couple of weeks ago about cyclists on one of the MS-150 rides that blew through an uncontrolled intersection, then got ticketed for running the stop sign. If there's no cop standing there waving you through, you have to stop at the light or sign just like any other driver. Cyclists are safest when they act (and are treated in return) like the drivers of vehicles.

And yet interestingly we had an LCI here that argued just the opposite... and also alluded to a mass of cyclists as a bus full of people.

THis is why it is difficult for good riders to go on group rides. I suggest you start your own ride.

Most club type riders are just lawless hooligans and you should avoid them.

THis is why it is difficult for good riders to go on group rides. I suggest you start your own ride.

Most club type riders are just lawless hooligans and you should avoid them.

and yet in this thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=9341421&postcount=139

John Forester tells us he chooses club riders " ...to show that my standards for good behavior could be... "

:rolleyes:

Go figure.

If you are not willing to abide by the rules (or rule breaking) of the ride you are on, then don't go because you will only endanger yourself and others. If they blow stops and you insist on stopping and hit the brakes when others expect you to be moving, you are going to cause problems at least and crashes at worst.

Communication is very important, know what the rules are, what to expect and then go with the flow or don't go at all.

I don't go on rides that go around on residential streets, I know we won't stop or slow down at signs and I don't want that added danger.

And yet interestingly we had an LCI here that argued just the opposite... and also alluded to a mass of cyclists as a bus full of people.

LCIs do disagree on a number of things. I personally advocate each individual stopping at every stop sign. Maybe not everybody on the stop line, but stopped somewhere close enough to observe traffic. On big group rides, I move out of formation when approaching the stop sign so I can stop without getting rear-ended. I have to work hard to catch up with the group, and sometimes I get dropped if it's the end of a long ride and I'm tired.

On the very small group rides that I lead, usually for beginners, everybody stops. And when teaching an LAB cycling class, we instruct every cyclist to stop as an individual. This is mandatory.

What does the community where the ride is taking place most want? Several years ago in a proactive effort to ensure community/cyclist relations would continue to be good, ride leader(s) from large group ride requested feedback from community and it overwhelming was that they preferred if group went thru 4-way stops (and only 4-way) as bunch (and only if lead from bunch had ROW) as it was quicker and less confusing.

There's no law anywhere in the country that permits a group of cyclists to behave like a herd or swarm...

Maybe not a law.......but the police in Fort Myers, Florida have stated that they prefer groups to act as a single vehicle. They stop as one and proceed as a group, not each individual rider stopping and going.

Maybe not a law.......but the police in Fort Myers, Florida have stated that they prefer groups to act as a single vehicle. They stop as one and proceed as a group, not each individual rider stopping and going.

It might be true, but all the same, I would like to see the source, if possible.

Acting as a group at stop signs works only if the cyclists are tightly packed. Even small gaps create ambiguities. Attempting to walk or bike on a short green light can be problematic if most of the peleton continues through on the major cross street's red.

The real danger is not in creeping at pedestrian speed through a stop sign, but in blasting through at speed. If everyone is riding slowly, there is time to react safely to cross traffic or to the cyclist ahead who decides to stop.

Acting as a group at stop signs works only if the cyclists are tightly packed. Even small gaps create ambiguities. Attempting to walk or bike on a short green light can be problematic if most of the peleton continues through on the major cross street's red.

The real danger is not in creeping at pedestrian speed through a stop sign, but in blasting through at speed. If everyone is riding slowly, there is time to react safely to cross traffic or to the cyclist ahead who decides to stop.

Agreed.

I strongly recall reading recently from a reliable source that the local city police are asking cyclists to go in groups of four (2x2). I need to dig that up, but can't find it again.

I think there is room for flexibility in enforcement to balance safety, intersection throughput & practicality vs. strict law. Local police have a written published 11mph tolerance* for speeding with the justification they want to focus on only the extreme speeders who pose the greatest safety risk. A similar stopping tolerance (but with guidelines) could work for groups of cyclists.

*Why are speeders allowed an 11 mph buffer?

The margin is intended to address language in the Arizona Revised Statutes related to speed offenses that defines, "...reasonable and prudent..." speed. It also provides a reasonable margin of error/grace for inaccurate vehicle speedometers and short-term lapses of attention by otherwise law-abiding and generally cautious drivers.

Our primary focus is on intentional, aggressive and negligent drivers. Statistics tell us that at 10 mph over the posted speed limit, the probability of being involved in a crash doubles. However, at 20 mph over, the probability increases to 11 times greater. We are trying to change the driving behavior of those persons who are most likely to cause crashes

I'm pretty sure that just about every group ride does this. What would you have them do? Get in line and have fifty or so people take turns stopping at the sign? It's much less of a public disturbance if you just cork off the intersection and get everyone out of the way quickly, all at once. One time I saw another cyclist flip out and start screaming obscenities at a group ride for doing this, it was ridiculous.

Let's turn the map around... Say that I'm leading a regional Corvette Club rally. Is there any limit on the number of following Corvettes that can run the stop sign after the lead driver goes through?

critical mass rules apply!

if, at a four way stop, motorists are yielding to allow a group of cyclists thru an intersection, there is yielding of ROW being given for as long as those cyclists can cork that dang intersection.

hand waves and friendly gestures gets a lot of play out there. I've seen remarkably compliant motorists at green lights being held back by one bicyclist and a smile as a large group ride rolls thru an intersection.

psyclepath must be a lot of fun to ride with.

LCIs are going to be slamming this type unsafe group ride dynamics-

after the recent death of an LCI instructor engaging in unsafe bicycling movements at the tail end of a pack of riders.

Let's turn the map around... Say that I'm leading a regional Corvette Club rally. Is there any limit on the number of following Corvettes that can run the stop sign after the lead driver goes through?



As Octo***** would say, Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect! Nothing shows how ridiculously self centered (as in "i own the road") the cycling elites are than this crackpot idea that they should be treated as a 'mass'.....dare i say critical mass, when they are in a 'peloton,' or any other jack-butt name for a group that feels they are entitled to break the law. If the light is red, you stop prudently. If thats inconvenient, or annoying, or destructive to your hoity toity idea of what group cycling is all about, its group cycling that has to change; not the other way around.

roughstuff

and yet in this thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=9341421&postcount=139

John Forester tells us he chooses club riders " ...to show that my standards for good behavior could be... "

:rolleyes:

Go figure.

What does this have to do with anything? Or this just a method for you to attack this Forester person?
Pointless.

No one is suggesting that a red light be run by a single, group or part of a group of cyclists.
Most are not asking for a group of cyclists to proceed thru a stop sign before the lead rider stops.
No one is asking that a group of cyclist proceed thru 4-way stop if there is another driver there first.

And yet interestingly we had an LCI here that argued just the opposite... and also alluded to a mass of cyclists as a bus full of people.

I think it has to be an inbetween. If 20 riders pull up to a 4-way stop you really don't want them going one per turn. Any car behind them has an unfairly long wait! (Keep in mind, I'm thinking of a busy 4-way stop, so there is traffic to yield to). I would think that at a minimum they should go about 4 at a time (one row of cyclists who are crowded up to the intersection).

But you can't all go either. It's not fair to yielding traffic to wait for 20 riders to come up to speed through the intersection. You're not a bus, afterall, your group will expand as you start moving just like traffic.

When passing through a stop sign with no traffic I see no problem with the whole group blowing the sign at 5-10mph as long as the visibility is good enough to blow it at that speed. I realize that it's illegal but for the life of me I can't understand why. If you fail to yield you'll be at fault whether you blew the sign or are simply too blind to see traffic. Stopping seems like nothing more than a way for traffic enforcement to catch you for a harmless incursion on the law: And they don't bother doing that anyway!

In conclusion: Stop signs are a terrible idea. Yield sign or traffic light please.

After being part of several large group rides, I will say that I've changed my opinion on this issue. For the sake of efficiency, large group rides probably should be treated as a single bus for traffic purposes. But AFAIK there is no statute generally covering this scenario. So, would a piece of legislation to address large group rides be a good idea? I immediately think of things such legislation would do, such as defining what constitutes a large group (>=5 bicycles?), and spelling out the privileges of said group (such as taking the full lane, riding with large numbers (3+) of people abreast, being able to temporarily stop cross traffic, and so forth).

I can see a race team going through a stop sign as one vehicle, they are used to, and do ride close together. I've never seen a group of "club riders" be close enough together to go through as one group. When all the bikes in the group are physically connected together, then the bus analogy will work, until then, they are separate vehicles until they can get handlebar to handlebar like a race.
I've been yelled at and derided for being out by myself and stopping at a stop sign, even a light, by groups of riders.

I think it has to be an inbetween. If 20 riders pull up to a 4-way stop you really don't want them going one per turn. Any car behind them has an unfairly long wait! (Keep in mind, I'm thinking of a busy 4-way stop, so there is traffic to yield to). I would think that at a minimum they should go about 4 at a time (one row of cyclists who are crowded up to the intersection).

Yes; everyone's convienience (including motorists) in this case is served by cyclists operating four abreast to increase the traffic throughput of the intersection. This is one reason to avoid passing laws limiting bicycling abreast.

I would go further still: If one row stops at the stop bar, and another row stops behind them but with full visibility of the intersection, both rows could go at the same time. As long as a cyclist comes to a complete stop somewhere behind the stop bar but with full view of all traffic approaching from all directions, I see no important reason for them to stop again and start again when they reach the stop bar. Clumping together increases traffic capacity.

However, when it comes to just riding through a stop sign, cyclists in the middle of the pack are no longer stopping and looking, and this can create problems under some conditions, and is illegal. I could discuss the special situations where it is not unsafe, but I am forbidden from teaching such an unlawful maneuver in an LAB class, because it would violate the conditions of the LAB's liability insurance.

Another note to think about is that if the group is at a stop sign, or 4-way stop with other traffic, once you yield to the car on the right (or which got to the intersection first, using the "first come, first served" principle, one "block" of cyclists can take off agan, followed by other cars taking their turn, then the next "block" of riders. Everybody takes their turn, and no one gets unduly delayed. If the ride leader has any smarts, he'll soft-pedal once he gets everyone to the far side and the group is back together. Then the race is on again... at least until the next stop sign.

Red lights are different in that you have to wait for a green, then everyone can go together, at least until the light changes ;-)

thank you everyone for your reply. on this ride we never cheated a car out of their turn at a 4 way or we never ran a red. its just we didnt stop at any stop signs and I know that this is illegal and that if we are caught by the cops were are in big trouble. but I understand why they dont stop. I think it is just to keep the ride as short as possible and to fatigue the riders less. but i just dont know how I want to feel about it.