Advocacy & Safety - Is jumping the red lights a serious thing?

...when on a bike, of course. I don’t think it is a serious thing, cause I’m careful and watch out. And if I would hit a pedestrian (which would be terrible), it wouldn’t be nearly as dangerous as if I drove a car and jumped the lights.

Although probably not the safest thing to do, I don't think it's too dangerous. I, and everyone else I know (literaly) does this.

I don't think it is such a big deal. It sure pisses off automobile drivers who are waiting at the light, though.

While I said 'yes', it's not because I think that it is particularly dangerous (though it can be, of course!). When I used to do this routinely (like when I was a courier) I never had a dangerous encounter. It is like jaywalking - one immediately checks in all directions for traffic because they have no false sense of security like while crossing in an intersection.

That said, it is a seriously blantant disregard for traffic laws and I just find it too hypocritical to demand respect for my lawful rights on the road while thumbing my nose at the rules. Under certain circumstances I still break the law but I don't shun it completely like I used to.

Besides, I like to work on my trackstand. It's great fun!

It seems like a bad idea to me. I'm with BikeRider, you can't expect cars to follow the rules if you refuse to do the same. And if anything should happen, it's your fault.

andy

If I am on a major road where I am certain to receive a green light, I will wait out a red light and perhaps practice track-standing. However, many signals I encounter are demand-driven by sensor loops. These will not give me a green light until they detect my presence or that of a car going in my direction. If there is no car nearby to trigger the signal, I make an honest attempt to trigger it myself by looking for pavement cuts and placing my bike directly over the loop's supposed sweet spot. If I am unable to trigger the light within a reasonable amount of time (such as through a cycle of other phases), I will cautiously proceed against the red light, yielding to all other traffic. California bicyclists have successfully used an "inoperative signal" defense against red light citations under these circumstances, but the law is admittedly somewhat vague. I also report nonresponsive detectors to the appropriate city traffic departments, and have had good response (so to speak) in many parts of San Diego County.

Since I strongly advocate "same rights, same roads" (with a few appropriate exceptions), I also feel obligated to abide by "same rules" (again, with a few appropriate exceptions).

Can you get into more detail of what "jumping the red light" is? Im a bit confused :)

Please forgive my ignorance, but by "jumping" do you mean riding through a red light (which is what I think it means). My thought is that while I'm driving and I happen to see other cyclists doing it I don't even think twice about it. I mean, how far do you want to interpet the law? The law says it is "unlawful" to ride on the sidewalk. But when I ride to work there is a stretch of about 200 yards where you either ride on the sidewalk or ride in the road with about a foot of clearance between you and morning traffic. Guess where I ride?;)

I pulled up to a stop sign once near the University and I neglected to come to a full stop. A bike cop happened to see me and motioned for me to go over to where he was standing. He made me go back to the stop sign and come to a full stop, foot on the ground and everything. Moral of the story, you never know who is watching, if you runs the reds yous' takes yous' chances.:p
-BT

I generally stop at red lights and wait for them to change in all situations unless the sensor is not working. The speed at which people drive around here (one got clocked at 232 km/h last week. I am not joking) you really need to have a good look before going through, and that means coming to a complete stop.

Originally posted by John E

Since I strongly advocate "same rights, same roads" (with a few appropriate exceptions), I also feel obligated to abide by "same rules" (again, with a few appropriate exceptions).

Ditto.

It's also not just a case of what damage you might cause to a pedestrian, you run the risk of other cars having an accident whilst trying to avoid you. I don't see the problem in stopping for a minute.

Richard

Originally posted by Joe Gardner
Can you get into more detail of what "jumping the red light" is? Im a bit confused :)
Well, not stopping at a red light. I don’t think we need to specify what type of crossing, because all cyclists who sometimes stop and sometimes don’t, have their own definition of what a dangerous crossing is.

I asked this question because I think it’s more complex than the biking on the sidewalk thing. I can fully understand the yes-voters, and I sometimes have ”stop-days” when I’m a little angel on the streets. But then, how can I justify my not stopping at red lights, a habit I don’t even consider messenger-style. Although it’s breaking the law, I still don’t consider it ”a serious thing” per se.

Well, strictly speaking, I don't think it's a SERIOUS thing, in the sense that it's evil or horribly risky or something, but I had to say yes because I don't think it's a good thing.

It's bad PR for cyclists, and it also reinforces motorists' expectations that a cyclist is likely to behave unpredictably in traffic. It also shows disrespect for the laws that we expect car drivers to follow. It's a bit galling when you consider that many of us are pretty pissed off when we see car drivers pull dangerous or unlawful moves in traffic -- especially those that endanger us -- we do expect to benefit from people consistently following traffic laws, after all. It's not so much the "disrespecting the law" that's the problem -- it's more the fact that doing so is disrespectful to those who choose to respect the signal lights. You're taking when everyone else has agreed not to take. At the same time, you're actually benefiting from the fact that others are driving predictably -- it's largely safe because, for the most part, traffic flows in predictable ways -- in predictable paths, at expected speeds, and with drivers taking due care.

I think if we want to be considered part of traffic, we should act like part of traffic. The good part, that is -- we all know some motorists blow through red lights, too.

-Cathy

Sitting at a red light waiting for no cross traffic makes absolutely no sense at all. A little common sense and caution is all it takes. I'm not going to do something that will endanger myself or others just for the sake of impatients, but what are traffic signals for in the first place? Safety. Sometimes it just kicks in "why the **** am I sitting here?". At two in the morning I'm not gonna sit at a signal I know takes forever to change. The only risk I'm taking is getting a ticket...At two in the afternoon, well let's just say I'm glad that same signal is there because some people just haven't mastered the four way intersection yet :) Heaven forbid the signal is down and there are turning lanes involved!!!

I got a £20 fine in London for starting from lights before they had fully changed. I was watching the other set of lights (ie when they go to amber, you can anticipate a change), and the big bus behing me, and wanted to get some safe speed up before the bus hooked me.

I only anticipate lights that I know well. I never blast past red , hoping that its clear, and dont even ride through if its clear, but I do get the jump on traffic behind me, so Im not caught by turning traffic .

Most lights are not planned with any regard for cyclists, and I tend to recipricate.

Originally posted by *WildHare*
At two in the morning I'm not gonna sit at a signal I know takes forever to change.

True, I thought about that scenario but decided my post was getting long enough.

My thoughts were primarily directed at situations in which you do have other drivers to relate to, even if there is little or no cross traffic. In such cases traffic is a social situation, and I think it's rude to blow through a red light when everyone else has chosen to recognize the signal. I believe it costs you little to be polite, and the long term payoff benefits both you and your fellow cyclists.

Context is important, however. When there's nobody else around, and it's a street with no cross traffic, and esp. if you know the light isn't going to change for you because you can't trigger the signal lights, it is probably more sensible to scoot through the red light. At two in the morning, it might actually be safer than just hanging around like a sitting duck, depending on the neighbourhood and the local wildlife. In some situations, it is in my best interests (in terms of minimizing risk/maximizing safety) to keep moving and get home faster.

In some intersections where there is a pedestrian/cyclist-controlled stop light to stop cross-traffic, I will often go through without making the light go if I see there's little or no cross-traffic. This is out of consideration for the one or two people that may be part of the cross-traffic, and may approach the stoplight only after you've gone. In most cases there isn't a red light to run, although there may be a stop sign.

Ultimately my main reasons for not running red lights are:
1. safety
2. consideration for other drivers
3. respect for the rules that create order in traffic (and the basic conviction that one shouldn't just blow them off when it's inconvenient to you personally)

Most of the times these factors drive my decisions toward the same decision: i.e., I choose not to run the red light -- but there are occasions when they oppose each other and you end up having to weigh the relative costs and payoffs. Good driving (bike or car) is about good decision-making, and sometimes it may mean that you will choose to run the red.

When I did my commuting in dense traffic and came to a particular intersecrion with two sets of lights I became a pedestrian by getting off my bike and walking. Feels foolish at first but one gets used to the idea.

Is jumping the red lights a serious thing?

Hell yes.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a noise?

Yes.

Now, here is where we talk about inactive sensors.

How long will you wait for a tree to fall?

:mad:

This is one of the few time I disagree with you Pete. Jumping red lights serious? Not at all. But then, I don't take anything too seriously. First rule of understanding the universe: it's all a game.

Originally posted by Allister
This is one of the few time I disagree with you Pete. Jumping red lights serious? Not at all. But then, I don't take anything too seriously. First rule of understanding the universe: it's all a game.
It's ok that you disagree with me. But you know as well as I do from experience that it's more than a game.

Hitting the pavement brings you back to reality, quickly.

A close friend of mine actually witnessed a cyclist killed as he ran the light, sometime within the last year or so. This was no wrong-way wobbly guy on a Huffy, this was a lycra-clad, "experienced" cyclist.

There was nothing to be done for him.

In our immediate neighborhood, there are a few crossings where there is very little traffic- the streets are one-way and sometimes there is nary a car coming. At crossings like that, I'll check to see if any cars are bearing down on me and if not, I'll just go. However, at busier crossings, I won't risk it. Also, red lights give me a chance to take a nice drinky!

I personaly like to show off my track stands at red lights. :)

Originally posted by Joe Gardner
I personaly like to show off my track stands at red lights. :)

But what about those of us who are track stand impaired (like myself)? ;)

Running a red light (by means of just blowing through an intersection) is just plain suicidal be it bicycle, car, or whatever. I don't think anyone on this forum would advocate such stupidity and I don't think that is what this post is about..............

Originally posted by *WildHare*
Running a red light (by means of just blowing through an intersection) is just plain suicidal be it bicycle, car, or whatever. I don't think anyone on this forum would advocate such stupidity and I don't think that is what this post is about..............
How can any cyclist get respect by disregarding traffic law?

As with most things in life a little common sense goes a long way. If I am at a red light and I am the only soul there (or even if there is a car or two) I am going through the light. I think I am capable of looking both ways before I cross the street. Obviously if it is a busy intersection or if you are in a "visually challenged" area you will need to wait for the light to turn green.

I think it definitely depends on the situation. I won't advocate blowing through all red lights but I won't tell people to sit there all day either. Some people will wait and that's fine. I've been sitting at a red on my bike and a cyclist will go zooming past me, cheating death once again. Go figure.

When in doubt, STOP.
-BT

I don't think it's too serious and sometimes creep out early to allow a quick getaway(particularly if there's a chance of a car trying to get past me and turn left).

However, I always think twice about it as it does have a negative impact on the way other road users and pedestrians see cyclists. I wouldn't jump a light to go through a ped crossing for example.

Allthough I do not jump red lights nowadays due to the same laws same, rights argument. There was a time though years ago when I ignored red lights and every other road law for that matter too.
I did come across this quote recently that I thought summed it up.

"Complaining about cyclists jumping a red light is like complaining about queue jumping in the bank when there is a bank robbery in progress"

Perhaps it is just age but there are better ways to promote the cause than braking the law.
Tim.

The area where I ride has two very busy intersections which are best approached by hopping off the bike and walking, so that's what I do. I tend to follow the traffic signals, but, I can see how it would depend on the amount of traffic, time of day, weather, etc. whether or not it is safe to jump a red light.

Regarding stop signs, I'm more likely to slow down (instead of stop) for them (of course, who hasn't done that in their car?). Again, it depends on the situation. If there's a car stopped at the sign across the way, I do come to a complete stop. Common sense is key.

I agree with ignoring a red lite if it is stuck (eg. insensitive detectors) and there is no traffic. Tee intersections, are another exampe where it makes no sense to wait, perhaps. But I often think, when I see someone blasting through a red needlessly, or getting a jump on traffic before a signal change, "If these folks are in a hurry, why are they riding a bike?", or "Isn't it easier, safer, smarter, and cooler to let the cars get the jump, especially if they are going to be passing you again anyway in a very few seconds?"

Originally posted by Grizzled
I agree with ignoring a red lite if it is stuck (eg. insensitive detectors) and there is no traffic.

The question is how does one know without actually stopping first. I know for a fact that around here, sometimes the traffic lights will be controlled by the sensors, and at other times the same set of lights will have the sensors turned off and will simply change according to some kind of pre-determined pattern.

I always come to a stop first because it's the only way to have a good look at traffic (people really do drive recklessly fast around here). After this, I will make a decision on whether to go before the light changes (i.e. if it's quiet and the light is not going to change) or whether to wait for it. This whole process never takes more than about 30 seconds.

I agree with everything you say, Chris. This is on a case-by-case basis (with respect to red lights, as well as what you might say)!

According to Jean Beetham Smith's latest post, jumping GREEN lights may be a crime in Massachusetts!

This a double edge sword. First, are you asking is it dangerous to run a read light? I would say "no" to an experience rider. He(or she) will certainly proceed when it is safe to do so. Personally, when I am cranking on the pedals and have a good workout going, I don't want to sit at a red. In contrast, we, as bicyclist, want to "share" the road with motorized vehicles, and I think running reds affects how drivers view bicyclists. In too many cities in this country, bicyclist are not viewed in a positive light. What I mean is, we are not viewed as having equal rights on the roadway, and I think not obeying traffic laws has an negative impact on how motorists view bicycle on the road. I could go on and on. . .This is hot topic!:rolleyes:

Here in my little corner of the state, crossing on a red light is illegal and the equivalent of jay-walking which is a $100.00 fine.

The red lights mean the same for us as for motorists; there's no either ethical or rational reason for us not to obey them.

Originally posted by Feldman
The red lights mean the same for us as for motorists; there's no either ethical or rational reason for us not to obey them.
Agree 100%. :thumbup:

Time for a reality check here...

If you jump a red light, you'd better hope that there is no car waiting (legally) at the red for it to turn. Do you really think that that person is going to take extra care when passing?

I mean...I can beat most cars off the line in a sprint...for a while, but they will ALWAYS overtake you. I'd just as soon have drivers assume that bicycles are vehicles and NOT toys.

I have got to admit that I don't always do that what I preach (e.g. flipping off morons, or the occasional left mirror dab when riding) but you have to keep your eyes on the prize...the drivers won't change their minds about cyclists if those who ride don't keep to the rules & laws.

ride safely,
Tom

I have to be extremely late for work if I'm going to resort to running red lights, even at 11pm when I ride to work. The lights here in Edmonton run on a pattern though. If you travel at the correct speed (not always the speed limit) you can remain within the pattern and encounter very few red lights. I laugh at all the wannabe racecars that burn through a yellow just to brake hard for a red a block up. At times I'll even slow my pace to catch a red and catch my breath.
One new little bonus they've added to a few of the cross walks here is a countdown timer beside the flashing don't walk sign. It counts down from 20 so you know that when it hits zero, the light will turn yellow. Those are extremely handy.
I do run lights that have sensors in the road that won't engage. If a cop ever bothers me about it, I'll loan him my aluminum bike and ask him to trigger the light's magnetic sensor. There's no law against going through a red light that's malfunctioning as long as it's safe to do so.
It's also fun to encounter cyclists who run a red in front of me. I treat them as a pacer and at least catch up to them if not pass them if I can.
I still worry about someone in a car trying to blow a red light behind me while I'm stopping. I encountered a nasty bit of road rage when I got in the way of a guy trying to "make the yellow".
One last thing I know from rideing in the city that I heard a cop say once about driving in the city when you encounter a red light. He said, "Don't fight, go right". I do that a lot to avoid stopping.
I wonder though, is it a better workout to constantly stop and go in the city; or is it better to maintain the same pace at a constant?

No it is generally not a dangerous thing... assuming the cyclist is being careful, and aware of the conditions at that light.

With that said, I try to adhere to the motor laws as they apply, and in some places bicycle laws. If we do not act responsably as cyclist, we will not help the drive for our communities to support our favorite activity... cycling.

And yes I do jump the light if the coast is clear...
and I suppose now that we have brought this topic to light(hahaha), I will pay closer attention to whether or not I feel the situation warrents a jump...:rolleyes:





Hey I've riden in Stockholm... I'd jump a light there anyday, before I would in Philadelphia or NYC.:eek:

I have to say I’ve got some new perspectives through this thread, which was maybe partly why I started it. Even though the question is complex, I now see more reasons to stop at a red light. One of the best arguments I think is that one about traffic morality or what to call it. Today was my spring premiere with the bike, and I thought that I had the right to gain more respect when I obeyed the law. It was good. :saintsmiley:


Originally posted by bikehard700
Hey I've riden in Stockholm...
Really!! :beer:

Well Stockholm sends its love to you because today was a woooonderful biking day! And no motorist was angry for me using the roads since they know that all bikelanes are full of gravel this time a year.

I was in Stockholm early Dec. 2000... working for a show performing at Cirkus. We were in town for 4 days, of gray, and few daylite hours. Fortunately, in an afternoon of down time, one of the stage crew had his mtn. bike there and allowed me to take it for a spin. I wasn't out long... it was chilly... but, I did get to ride in your FANTASTIC city.
:beer: :beer: :beer: to Swedish hospitality.

Blah. I ended up doing it last night. The light is triggered by a magnet or something, so it wouldn't change. Well, that's not entirely true. The signals on the cross street changed twice, but I never got a green. I finally decided to go when nobody was there. Right after I left, a guy rolled up in a truck and THEN it changed.

andy

Yeah, that happens to me frequently as well. I will sit at a light for a good 2-3 minutes and if there are no cars to trigger the light mechanism then I would be there all day. I certainly agree that bicyclists should obey the rules of the road, but come on people, how many of you have made a complete stop at a red light or a stop sign every single time?

I make a consious effort to stop every time I'm on the road. I'm sorry but I am not going to sit at a light for five minutes just because the detector is not sensitive enough to detect my bike. And if a cop happened to see me do it I would bet your money that he wouldn't do much about it, if anything. Look twice, ride once :)
-BT

here's my two pennies...

For a experienced rider, this is not a big thing, you know when it is safe and when it's not... so in that respect it is not a big thing.

However in vegas we have a VERY big problem with cars running red lights. It can be red as a stop sign and 4 cars will go through. I've run red lights in my day (more like turns red while I am in the intersection) and I knew I was wrong. but I really knew the 4 cars coming with me were wrong too!! :eek:

so in conclusion, I think it's not a big thing, but what if you start to go and boom a nice big truck decides he can make the light....
not that safe eh? :rolleyes:

(oh yeah my 100th post! :D )

I wonder if it would help to put a some kind of high powered magnet at the bottom of the frame to trigger those stupid sensors. I don't even have an idea where to buy a decent magnet. If I was still in high school, I'd just steel one from science class to experiment with at least.
I got caught at one today. My old steel bike used to do ok at triggering the things but my new aluminum frame has no chance. It drives me nuts.

I don't think the sensors are magnetic, I think they are set off by weight. Not to mention your bike magnet will pick up nails and debris and may cause sterility (which may be a good thing for some people ;)). Unless you want to ride around on a 500 lb. bike I suggest the signal makers find a way to trigger the light some other way. A very simple and effective way around this would be to go over to the crosswalk light and hit the button. But again you have to wait around for the light to cycle when there isn't a car in sight. I take responsibility for my actions, and if someone creams me out of nowhere because I didn't sit at a deserted intersection for 20 minutes then it's no one else's fault but mine.
-BT

Most traffic lights that rely on sensors that use induction loop sensors, similiar to a metal detector.

My understanding is that there is power flowing through the loop. Whenever you have power flowing in a loop, it creates a magnetic field. The more power, the stronger the magnetic field. When a car, truck, bike, or anything else with enough metal pulls over the loop, it disrupts the magnetic field. The loop detects this distruption and triggers the light to change.

There are several other types that include motion detection, sonar, and radar. Induction Loop is by far the most common though.

There are a few members that in traffic management and can probably explain this a little better.

I would like to add a twist to this discussion of jumping red lights.

Many cyclists have stated that it's not dangerous for competant cyclists, provided they are careful. I disagree with this.

In some places, red lights are not even needed because traffic is so light. On crowded streets, red lights serve to prevent both accidents and traffic jams by creating an orderly flow of traffic.

At the moment, some cyclists may find it "safe" to proceed through a red light after using caution. But what if cycling becomes more popular? During the 1970's cycling boom in the US,
bicycle accident frequency soared. This was due largely to the
rapid increase in the number of bicycles and inexperienced users.
Today, there are few bicycles on the street, but if the number of cyclists increased significantly, jumping red lights could become an extremely messy, perhaps deadly business.

Don't run the light just because you can. Someone may be watching you.

It's the law. I stop. I have had two near collisions with bozos on bikes with no lights running red lights in the dark. Factor that into your thinking.

OK, i guess the general sentiment here is that most people feel it's pretty safe for an experienced rider, but most people try and not do it (unless it's car-triggered) but sometimes do it like late at night... and try not to out of principle b/c it's the law and to gain respect from cars...

my view is close, but a little different. First, for perspective, i'm 31 and race MTB and some roadbike, and also commute almost every day for 5 years in 4 different cities in different areas... i drive very infrequently and my bike is my #1 mode of transportation...

when riding my #1 priority is safety. this means i often run red lights b/c i think it's safer to do so (in certain urban traffic areas) and then also often run red lights when safe to do so... if there's nobody coming and it's safe to do so (after carefully checking for any cars or pedestrians)

i'm not endangering anyone but myself so why not? (see below)

as far as it being the law... my rational goes as such and maybe i'm hypocritical, but... the red lights are there to provide orderly traffic flow soas to 1) ensure safety and 2) provide some sort of order and efficiency by defining right-of-way at intersections...

in respect to #1 above, i do not run red lights if there are pedestrians around (or i slow to pedestrian speed and cross often with jay-walking pedestrians) and i believe i am no safety threat to anyone except myself (if i did screw up and not see a car, is that driver going to die - like someone might if a car ran a red light?) since i'm not blowing a light at speed i'm very unlikely to hit a pedestrian and if so it would be at low speed...

in respect to #2, excpet in rare situations like a bike race or critical mass rides, bikes cause very little traffic delay and my jumping a light often *speeds* the traffic flow if there are cars behind me b/c they can pass after the intersection and with more speed...

but in general, i don't feel it's wrong to jump reds because the red lights (and most of the road system in general) are **designed for cars**, and then the laws are just blanket-applied to cyclists too. if there is a cycle-path or whatever it's 98% of the time an afterthought!

yes, i think it's a serious thing for a car to jump a light, because if the driver is wrong he threatens others safety, but when a cyclist does it he is only endangering himself.

another example is where traffic lights are timed for cars - so that they get a wave of green lights. well, sometimes i can ride the 30mph or 35mph and make the 'wave', but usually not the 45mph or whatever - then i (who take up less space and create less traffic have to yeild to all these high-speed cars...) --- i'm penalized for being on a bike

lastly, i think one of the huge benefits to riding a bicycle in urban areas (in addition to parking) is speed to destination. but when bikes have to wait at all the lights the cars do, then bikes loose many of the benefits...

yes, i think the better solution would be if we had special lanes and special lights and crossing for efficiency (in general most bike paths in the US and here in Germany are designed to get bikes off the road and out of the way for motorists) ... i.e. in the city the pedestrian and bike should be users #1 and #2 and cars have to wait w/o delaying pedetrians and bikes, but most cities work the other way.

or to make an analogy, to me, jumping a red (i'm not quite clear if that is just starting early or also running a red) or running a red is the same as jaywalking as a pedestrian - you're not supposed to do it b/c it's the law the main idea of which is to allow for better conditions for cars or a generalization from thinking about cars as the dominant mode of transportation --- why is jaywalking illegal? 1) to protect people from themselves and 2) to make it easier for car drivers b/c they have fewer pedestrians to deal with and look out for

as far as getting respect for drivers... i do try and think about motorists much of the time and try and not hinder them much and my red-jumping doesn't slow them at all and often speeds them up. as far as them not respecting me for not following the letter of the law, i think there are many people that disrespect cyclists and always will and the ones who do already respect us won't really be so ticked off (i could be wrong here) and are more likely to be pissed off by always having to slow down for cyclists in general (i.e. legal things - not something that doesn't affect them that's just in principle).

it's also similat to the pass-on-the-right issue which is now legal in Oregon (after much work by bike groups) - some drivers see it as wrong and unfair for bikes to get special treatment - but i think if the laws were really designed with cyclists in mind i might be more willing to follow the letter of the law... (i guess this comment could lead into a whole philosophical disscussion of what it means to follow or break a law - i.e. seatbelt or rolling stop or lots of things people may do despite a law agianst it when they feel the law is wrong or unnecessary -- or technically you're speeding at 56 in a 55mph, so many laws are softened or ignored, but which ones is a quesion --- this is also affected by which are enforced - i.e. everyone knows that above 15mph over you'll get ticketed if there's a cop --- but cyclists running red lights are not threatening public safety in the way speeders or drunk drivers are)

again, i ride to protect myself and soas not to endanger others... in general i believe it is very important to have rules and standards, but again, very little in general is done to help cyclists and almost no consideration in the design, rule and laws of road-rules make much thought of how it affects cyclists.

Word!! I couldn’t sum up my opinion better than you just did, nathank. :thumbup: