Professional Cycling For the Fans - AC vs LA - who deserves the blame? I'll tell you

You know who I hold responsible for this entire LA vs CA business? I'll tell you. Johan Bruyneel that's who. I manage people for a living and a vital part of management is that your people know their roles and scope of responsibility. There is no room for ambiguity when it comes to managing people and people will usually work their asses off for you if they know what you expect.

Back in Oct of 2008 (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=3649470) when AC learned LA would be joining the team he remarked "The only thing is that at the Tour de France, where we have the same objective, it's better that the whole team knows who the leader is" and he said he expected Johan to clearly define roles. Obviously that never happened. He also said his working relationship with LA was "very good". Can you imagine going into the tour not knowing who the leader on your own team was? That sets up a natural LA vs AC within the team. The nonsense about "whoever is stronger in the mountains will be the leader" was idiotic and we're seeing the fruit of that stupidity now.

Lastly, I like LA and I like AC and I cannot wait to see them compete but all this he said she said nonsense is the fault of Johan. He may know strategy but when it comes to people he's lacking an elementray understanding. The pre-race and race drama proves it. If you want to hate on someone hate on Johan, he deserves ALL the credit for the stupid we see in the papers.

Last I checked Astana won GC, placed another rider 3rd, had 3 in the top ten, won the Team competition, and won some stages.

I'd say Bruyneel did his job.


And as for not designating a leader, it seemed to work ok this year, and it worked well for CSC last year with A Schleck, F Schleck, and Sastre.

If you've got a couple of guys capable of winning in the right circumstance, it only makes sense to force other teams to mark all of them, particularly early in the race.

Aye, if in managing people your intermediate goal is to get the best performance out of a person on the way to the end of success of the team/company/organization, sometimes inside competition can be very beneficial. That may or may not have been Bruyneel's intentions, but as merlinextraligh points out, it's hard to argue with his results.

You know who I hold responsible for this entire LA vs CA business? I'll tell you. Johan Bruyneel that's who. I manage people for a living and a vital part of management is that your people know their roles and scope of responsibility. There is no room for ambiguity when it comes to managing people and people will usually work their asses off for you if they know what you expect.

Back in Oct of 2008 (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=3649470) when AC learned LA would be joining the team he remarked "The only thing is that at the Tour de France, where we have the same objective, it's better that the whole team knows who the leader is" and he said he expected Johan to clearly define roles. Obviously that never happened. He also said his working relationship with LA was "very good". Can you imagine going into the tour not knowing who the leader on your own team was? That sets up a natural LA vs AC within the team. The nonsense about "whoever is stronger in the mountains will be the leader" was idiotic and we're seeing the fruit of that stupidity now.

Lastly, I like LA and I like AC and I cannot wait to see them compete but all this he said she said nonsense is the fault of Johan. He may know strategy but when it comes to people he's lacking an elementray understanding. The pre-race and race drama proves it. If you want to hate on someone hate on Johan, he deserves ALL the credit for the stupid we see in the papers.

i agree 100% inasmuch as this drama would never have happened if bruyneel had worked in the best interest of the team and his sponsors. you can't have two leaders of the same team.

ed rader

Last I checked Astana won GC, placed another rider 3rd, had 3 in the top ten, won the Team competition, and won some stages.

I'd say Bruyneel did his job.


And as for not designating a leader, it seemed to work ok this year, and it worked well for CSC last year with A Schleck, F Schleck, and Sastre.

If you've got a couple of guys capable of winning in the right circumstance, it only makes sense to force other teams to mark all of them, particularly early in the race.

bruyneel allowed lance on the team to secure a position for himself next year because he knew astana was giving him the boot. if that weren't the case i might agree with you. astana had a team captain who was heavily favored to win the tour and who was also promised the job.

the only reason lance was allowed on board was because bruyneel was looking out for bruyneel. i believe contador won the tour in spite of bruyneel, not because of him. and if contador had not won another team would have.

ed rader

Last I checked Astana won GC, placed another rider 3rd, had 3 in the top ten, won the Team competition, and won some stages.

I'd say Bruyneel did his job.


And as for not designating a leader, it seemed to work ok this year, and it worked well for CSC last year with A Schleck, F Schleck, and Sastre.

If you've got a couple of guys capable of winning in the right circumstance, it only makes sense to force other teams to mark all of them, particularly early in the race.


Um, his team got 1st and 3rd at the expense of the team. Note the guy heavily favored to win several more tours will have NOTHING to do with JB (or LA for that matter). So who actually wins here?

And how many of those 7 LA wins were races where LA had no idea who the team leader was going to be?

Sure JB placed 2 on the podium - nice. But the most promising one, the ONLY one who actually has a future in racing won't have anything to do with him now and for good reason. How smart is that?

Poor management, very short sighted. Had JB managed his team with a dose of common sense he, AC and LA would be winning tours for the next 5 years at least. This is what we in the south call shooting oneself in the foot and JB has proven he's quite a marksman.

i agree 100% inasmuch as this drama would never have happened if bruyneel had worked in the best interest of the team and his sponsors. ed rader


But the most promising one, the ONLY one who actually has a future in racing won't have anything to do with him now and for good reason. How smart is that?

Poor management, very short sighted. Had JB managed his team with a dose of common sense he, AC and LA would be winning tours for the next 5 years at least. This is what we in the south call shooting oneself in the foot and JB has proven he's quite a marksman.

Best interest of the Team and Sponsor? Long term?

Astana is a cluster F*ck, and there is no long term. Astana as it existed for this years TDF was over regardless what happened in this year's TDF.

Moreover, Astana got their money's worth from Armstrong and Bruyneel. Astana didn't even pay Armstrong, and they got ton's of exposure.

Armstrong's return to racing means sponsorship dollars and money in Bruyneel's pocket. Bruyneel delivers for his team, enhances his reputation, and will make more money next year than he would have made had Armstrong not returned. Bruyneel is no fool, and he's doing pretty well for himself and his team.

There was no way he was going to keep both Contador and Armstrong together on the same team long term and both happy. Bruyneel was smart enough to know upon which side his bread is buttered .

My original point was the senseless and childish goings on between LA and AC are the result of poor leadership on JBs part. I recognize JB does a very good job of looking after his own interests. He and LA have a sweet set up. No one doubts that.

The upside is we're going to see some nice drama and even better racing a year from now.

Last I checked Astana won GC, placed another rider 3rd, had 3 in the top ten, won the Team competition, and won some stages.

I'd say Bruyneel did his job.

i don't think lance would have placed any lower than 3rd had it been clear that he was in a supportive role. and kloden might have been higher if Contador didn't feel like (legitimate or not) his whole team was against him. Contador's win certainly wouldn't have been in jeopardy, nor would Astana's team win. having a great tour doesn't mean it couldn't have been even better with a unified front.

p.s. i blame the liberal media!

last time I checked, there has never been more interest in the Tour, than 2009 with the added LA/AC controversy


it's ALL GOOD, PEOPLE

Any favorites for this weekends Clasica San Sebastian?

Any favorites for this weekends Clasica San Sebastian?

I think the profile suits Bettini - but alas. :(

The initial post had a point. Despite the victory, Bruyneel lost the best cyclist, a big mistake for any manager. All these issues should have been worked out in advance of the race. Lance got lucky on the podium, Contador presence shielded him and Evans, Sastre and Menchov all should have had a better race.

Well, eventually the Armstrong fanatics are going to start running out of excuses for Armstrong. This time it's Bruyneel's fault. When will it EVER be Armstrong's fault? I'll give you a hint... NEVER!

Last I checked Astana won GC, placed another rider 3rd, had 3 in the top ten, won the Team competition, and won some stages.

I'd say Bruyneel did his job.


And as for not designating a leader, it seemed to work ok this year, and it worked well for CSC last year with A Schleck, F Schleck, and Sastre.

If you've got a couple of guys capable of winning in the right circumstance, it only makes sense to force other teams to mark all of them, particularly early in the race.

this!!

+1

It's hard to manage your boss.

It's hard to manage your boss.

Not when he works for you ... that is why Johan and Lance work together so well. Johan knows Lance is the boss and Lance will listen to what Johan tells him to do. From what I have read it seems a very symbiotic relationship.

As for "who is to blame" - maybe we are all over looking the most obvious (and likely only actual) answer ...

no one


What went wrong?

1) Alberto went from being a great cyclist that 1% of the world's population would name-recognize to being a "LANCE KILLER" - his visability is 1,000s times more than it would have been without the Lance saga. Best thing that ever happened to him - now maybe he'll get endorsement contracts on par with footballers and tennis stars cus that was NEVER going to happen without Lance!

2) Lance made the podium at 37/8 years of age - an amazing feat IF he had been racing all this time. A stunning feat given he's been running for the better part of the last 4 years and came into the race with less than a year's time back on the bike. If that doesn't say "it's not about the bike" I don't know what does!

3) Astana went from a ProTour team that was about to abandon its license to one that has a much healthier financial profile, has had massive amounts of exposure (not sure why they want/need it but they GOT IT), and they are probably going to be able to bring back Vino and make it look like they are solving all of this drama. No Alberto/Lance controversy and the big story would have been about Astana bringing back Vino with negative publicity abounds.

4) Last, Johan .... what the heck did he do wrong??? Erader said "you can't have two leaders". Despite this almost EVERY OTHER DS commented before the Tour at the strength of Johan's position, the "luxury" he had with two OR MORE leaders, and that he was savy for NOT DESIGNATING ONE OR THE OTHER. So if people in the business who know the business say it can happen ... why should we listen to ourselves???


No one is to blame. Life happens. People say things when a mic is in their face that we (esp we here on BF) take pleasure in making them regret.

Likewise, things happen. And maybe (boy this will eat at bellweatherman - the ultimate in conspiracy theorists) just maybe things like Lance having someone go and get his kids was NEVER intended to put Alberto in duress.

Maybe Lance just sent someone to do something without playing out the chess-strategists handbook of ulterior motives and back-handed deals ...


There I go again ... looking at the world in 'rose colored glasses'. :D

Well, eventually the Armstrong fanatics are going to start running out of excuses for Armstrong. This time it's Bruyneel's fault. When will it EVER be Armstrong's fault? I'll give you a hint... NEVER!


Not every single thread is a "I hate lance" one. This isn't even a lance fanatic thread. This thread has nothing to do with lance, I know that comes as a shock but oh well. This is a thread about poor, short sighted management. Sorry to disapoint.

In the end, both LA and AC got most of what they wanted. AC got the yellow, and LA got a crap load of publicity, and a bunch of fan(atics) who think that LA would have gotten 2nd or 1st had AC only been a team player. That helps LA launch is team with more $$$.
Sure, AC would have loved to have been celebrated instead of poked fun of in the media, and LA would have loved to have gotten yellow. But Lance is better at PR and AC is better at riding a bike, so they each got pretty much what they earned.

Well, eventually the Armstrong fanatics are going to start running out of excuses for Armstrong. This time it's Bruyneel's fault. When will it EVER be Armstrong's fault? I'll give you a hint... NEVER!

What exactly is his fault again? Is it LA's fault that his teammate won the overall? That his team won the GC? That he placed third?

Oh right... it's LA's fault that AC's feelings were hurt. :hug:

This is a thread about poor, short sighted management.

Ill take some of his poor/short sighted management anyday. When you talk about mismanagment i think you need to talk about it in how it failed, which in this case is immpossible because they WON the TdF, they WON the best team award, they placed a 2nd rider on the podium and and had another in the top 10 and would have had another in the top 10(reasonable speculation) had Levi not crashed out.

Whats your definition of good team management? The man has 8 TdF wins out of the past 10 as a team manager. What else can you possibly want? Hes as close to perfect as it gets and you are gonna slam him because Lance and Alberto cant play nicey nice? Hes dealing with high powered, high octane, highly compensated athletes that could have powder kegged on him at any moment. Id say he kept the team on track despite all of that and still DOMINATED this years TdF.

If you want Lance and Alberto to play nicey nice i suggest you look elsewhere than Johan, hes to busy winning races. Ill take him on my team any day of the week, in fact im picking first, i take Johan, who you got?

Not every single thread is a "I hate lance" one. This isn't even a lance fanatic thread. This thread has nothing to do with lance, I know that comes as a shock but oh well. This is a thread about poor, short sighted management. Sorry to disapoint.


I have no problem with your post or with your extreme opinions, but you invite this. Here in your reply, you try to deflect any criticism of Armstrong by stating that this post "isn't even a lance" post. Yet, in your title you ask, "AC vs LA - who deserves the blame?" I've personally answered your question. I think that Armstrong is solely to blame. And then you point the finger back at me and continually insult? I've seen you do this to other users on a number of threads by calling them out for issues that go against your beliefs even though your shouts at them are not related to the topic of the post.

not when he works for you ... That is why johan and lance work together so well. Johan knows lance is the boss and lance will listen to what johan tells him to do. From what i have read it seems a very symbiotic relationship.

As for "who is to blame" - maybe we are all over looking the most obvious (and likely only actual) answer ...

no one


what went wrong?

1) alberto went from being a great cyclist that 1% of the world's population would name-recognize to being a "lance killer" - his visability is 1,000s times more than it would have been without the lance saga. Best thing that ever happened to him - now maybe he'll get endorsement contracts on par with footballers and tennis stars cus that was never going to happen without lance!

2) lance made the podium at 37/8 years of age - an amazing feat if he had been racing all this time. A stunning feat given he's been running for the better part of the last 4 years and came into the race with less than a year's time back on the bike. If that doesn't say "it's not about the bike" i don't know what does!

3) astana went from a protour team that was about to abandon its license to one that has a much healthier financial profile, has had massive amounts of exposure (not sure why they want/need it but they got it), and they are probably going to be able to bring back vino and make it look like they are solving all of this drama. No alberto/lance controversy and the big story would have been about astana bringing back vino with negative publicity abounds.

4) last, johan .... What the heck did he do wrong??? Erader said "you can't have two leaders". Despite this almost every other ds commented before the tour at the strength of johan's position, the "luxury" he had with two or more leaders, and that he was savy for not designating one or the other. So if people in the business who know the business say it can happen ... Why should we listen to ourselves???


no one is to blame. Life happens. people say things when a mic is in their face that we (esp we here on bf) take pleasure in making them regret.

Likewise, things happen. And maybe (boy this will eat at bellweatherman - the ultimate in conspiracy theorists) just maybe things like lance having someone go and get his kids was never intended to put alberto in duress.

Maybe lance just sent someone to do something without playing out the chess-strategists handbook of ulterior motives and back-handed deals ...


There i go again ... Looking at the world in 'rose colored glasses'. :d

+1

JB is a proven winner, big time. When you win a lot you have to be given the benefit of the doubt. There's no doubt JB can run a team. There's more to a team than just Lance and Alberto. There's 27 riders on the main roster. 9 get to start in France. JB was able to manage all of them all season. If not for a crash, Astana would have finished intact. That takes major skills to hold them together. He's got that. I think his only regret was one rider decided he didn't need a team or a director.

Okay, here's my opinion. Johan was between a rock and a hard place with LA and AC. It's a place HE put himself in. Bring in Lance as a favor to a friend after a team is established, and now you've totally changed the dynamics. I honestly don't think he knew what the outcome would be. Put two fighters in the ring and let see what happens.

Johan dodged a bullet, and he still came out on top.

And now that it's over, his focus on 2010 is totally clear.

Bringing in Armstrong certainly did change the team dynamic, but in terms of the the team it was a brilliant move. Much extra publicity, overall stronger team, and better chance of winning.


The only people that think it was a mistake are those that think the proper job of an SD is as servant to the top rider. Well it ain't so.

I don't know, I wonder if this whole rivalry thing is more of a publicity stunt.

I don't know, I wonder if this whole rivalry thing is more of a publicity stunt.

You are probably right. Entertainment fator of their mutual jacka$$ery is through the roof. Which makes me adore the Schlecks even more.....

I agree with the OP. The team won and demolished all despite itself. It illustrated just how strong the Astana riders are as a unit, relative to the others.

I think that Bruyneel is not the director to end all directors. If he was, he'd have won the Tour the year AFTER Lance retired. Instead, nothing. He needs a good rider to win the Tour, and that means he's nothing special, at least at that tactical level. To win the Tour with a less than ideal rider, that takes talent (and luck and whatever else).

Having said that, I do think Bruyneel knows how to pick riders, and how to convince potential team leaders to become high level domestiques, at least for the Tour (Kloden, Leipheimer, Azevedo, Heras, Zubeldia, some others that escape me). He builds teams like the old days, where guys like Merckx would surround himself with ex-team leaders that worked for him.

When you have the best riders in the world on your team, with a slew of just-below-the-top riders supporting them, it's hard to lose, really, really hard to lose, even if you royally screw things up. You have a few high level flatlanders, a few high level climbers, and you're set. And when I say "high level", I'm talking the top 20 in the world, maybe top 10 for climbers.

On the public perception of who was team leader versus who really was team leader - it felt a bit like Telekom/T-Mobile, when they had all those guys in the top in 2006. Huge difference between 06 and 09 though - although everyone tossed around the idea that it was an open field for the T-Mobile riders, it really wasn't. Yellow Jersey was getting water, Mick Rogers was tentatively supporting Kloden (he said so himself, that he thought Kloden would be the best of them), other guys high in GC were simply hunting stages (Sinkewitz, the other guy busted for test, TT guy busted for blood values). Although the team never said it, it was clear that Kloden was supported from Day One, and Rogers was the wild card. (It's also clear that there were some problems with the team otherwise, based on the various doping related things that came from that era :) )

With Astana in 2009, it was different. Based on the riders' actions, it was clear that there was no designated leader. They simply rode semi-respectably as teammates (i.e. not chasing one another down) but they didn't work together really well (i.e. AC attacking solo on the first mountain top finish). A true La Vie Claire parallel, where the two rivals had implicit support riders, neutrals, and "the other side". AC got the short end as he only had one supporter, Paulino. Lance had Popo, Levi for a while, others. I forget who the poor neutrals were (in La Vie Claire they were, appropriately enough, the Swiss riders Ruttiman and someone else).

Ultimately AC was just way stronger than anyone else. I think that he'd have won regardless of what team he was on, even with a semi-poor TT showing (Silence/Lotto for example). He'd just have attacked more in the mountains. He was just marking the Schlecks. It would have been much more spectacular if he attacked instead of followed. Instead he played the teammate and didn't increase the gaps (save the Kloden incident, but I think the Schlecks would have gone anyway). He could have gone at other points but he didn't.

cdr

Ultimately AC was just way stronger than anyone else. I think that he'd have won regardless of what team he was on,

While it's tempting, I don't think you can make that extrapolation. As has been said numerous times, the secret of winning GTs is to be stronger at the right time. For instance, mano a mano Sparticus buries AC in an ITT, unless he's been driving the peleton for almost three weeks.

...the ONLY one who actually has a future in racing won't have anything to do with him now and for good reason.

Hmmmm... you think that LA has no future in racing? Really? I takes lots of support to keep a pro cycling team on the hunt... and Lance is great at putting that together.

I suspect that in a few years you'll see LA as a powerful mover and shaker in racing. And folks will look back at Contador as a guy who was once a great rider... but they'll also have those "wonder what he's doing now" thoughts.

Hmmmm... you think that LA has no future in racing? Really? I takes lots of support to keep a pro cycling team on the hunt... and Lance is great at putting that together.

I suspect that in a few years you'll see LA as a powerful mover and shaker in racing. And folks will look back at Contador as a guy who was once a great rider... but they'll also have those "wonder what he's doing now" thoughts.

and so what if this comes to pass? It's not like everyone has the same aspirations in life.

Who deserves the "blame" for Astana not just winning, but utterly dominating the tour? Yup, I'd have to agree: Bruyneel. I'd have called it "credit"...

Seriously, how twisted is your world view that Astanas performance in the Tour something that must be "blamed" on someone?

and so what if this comes to pass? It's not like everyone has the same aspirations in life.

That was exactly my point. The statement was that JB ignored the one person who had a future in racing... and I was trying to point out that there is more than one type of future in racing.

and so what if this comes to pass? It's not like everyone has the same aspirations in life.

I don't know, the whole pistol shot after every race win...I think that indicates he wants to be the best. It will be tougher for AC next year. While I wouldn't bet on AC to win before knowing who will be on his team, I certainly wouldn't bet against TRS, because TRS is going to be the team to beat. Think about it: Lance, Kloden, Levi on one team...then you got the two schleck brothers...I mean who is going to ride for AC? AC will have a tough time defending the yelow jersey...that is if he gets the ylow jersey.

I think next year will be part deux of this year, only with LA on a different team. I see Andy and Contador as the top two favorites again. I think LA will struggle to make the podium, but so will half a dozen others. Wiggins and Nibali will be the two unknowns as far as I'm concerned. Will they be there again, be better, or drop off? If LA does better than 5th or 8th I think he'll be doing great. I think if Contador or Andy are not on the podium it'll be considered a let-down. I think that's what it comes down to.

That was exactly my point. The statement was that JB ignored the one person who had a future in racing... and I was trying to point out that there is more than one type of future in racing.

Racing? - certainly Alberto cares about that. I was referring to the other stuff. Maybe Alberto has no desire to establish a foundation and to become the chief patron of the sport in his native country. Dragging those other things into the comparison is bogus.

I have to agree with the saying "Bruyneel knows which side his bread is buttered"
**** cycling, I'm gonna make me some money...