Triathlon - Wheel suggestions for TT/tri training

What wheels would the time trialists and triathetes out here recommend for training?

On one hand, you want more aero + stiff + light wheels so you know your potential. On the other hand, you know you'll be putting in lots of mileage on mostly regular streets where there are potholes, etc. so don't want anything too delicate or pricey, i.e. rear discs wouldn't be ideal unless you've got a very, very full piggy bank set aside for hobbies.

I've been recommended Zipp 404 tubulars as a good compromise between being aero + stiff, but not too overboard. Some who are more on the cautious side have said to go with Aluminium rims only.

What do you guys suggest? any experiences to share?

Cheers

Well most people buy a bike that has wheels on it and they are usually not aero wheels.
You should Train with the cheapest road wheels you can find and low pressure tires, and then have a set of Zipps or other aero wheels for racing.

For racing I reccommend a zipp 404 front and 808 rear.

And i am assuming you already own a bike, so use the wheels that are already on it. If not, or the shop is selling you aero wheels with the bike, a pair of $200-300 cheapo wheels will save your $2000 zipps from a crash during training.

Yeah I wouldnt run any tubular as a training wheel. the tires are more expensive and a pain in the ass to have changed or change yourself if you do get a flat.

I also wouldnt run zipps as a training wheel. zipps are race wheels unless they are team issues.

I train on ksyrium es, which are a set of race wheels basically. a solid set of road wheels is all you need to train on really.

For race wheels I'd recommend zipp tubulars tho. a 404 in front and 808 in back is a killer combo i would recomend.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I am actually just running some cheap Alex DA22 rims on 105/Ultegra hubs as training wheels, but since I've been hearing some wheel suggestions at polar extremes, just wanted to get more feedback from more TT people to see what others are running.

I've heard a suggestion though that does sound interesting: Running a deep section (60 to 80)Flashpoint aero clincher in front, and a cheap rear wheel build but with a wheel cover added on. Any comments on this? Sounds workable as a mid step up.

Workable yes, versatile no. The thing with disk wheels is, if your race has any major crosswinds, you're screwed. the Zipps are just as (if not more) aero because of the insane dimpling that they do to make them the best in the world. If you are sure there will be no major crosswinds, you could also get a wheel cover for the 808 that you could put on and off.

i've never been a fan of wheel covers. I'f just run a 606 set(404fr and 808rr)

I run a wheelbuilderaero disc cover on my rear wheel and i love how it works (You can totally see and feel a big difference on downhills). However the other side of a good rear wheel is its lightness as well. That and the benefit of the Zipp aero dimples may outweigh the aero cover aspect.

I have no data to prove this however ;) hehe

PS as an aside I had Alex DA22 rims and HATED them, maybe where I live is too bumpy but I bent those things multiple times, it was rare they would ever be true. If youre gonna do the cheap wheel/disc cover thing don't waste your money on a disc cover for those buy something a little better.

I've been really happy with my Reynolds Solitudes in training... Still deciding what to use as my permanent race wheels, so in the mean time I'm renting various combinations of Zipps. ;)

Thanks again for the continuing feedback, great points guys.

Re: the Alex DA22s, I'm still going pretty well on these guys after 1 year of use. I don't take them over many bumps though. Some of the bike messengers/couriers use these even with the abuse they put the rims through, and still they recommended them to me. So far so good for me as well, but we'll see as more time passes.

Yeah I wouldnt run any tubular as a training wheel. the tires are more expensive and a pain in the ass to have changed or change yourself if you do get a flat.

I also wouldnt run zipps as a training wheel. zipps are race wheels unless they are team issues.

I train on ksyrium es, which are a set of race wheels basically. a solid set of road wheels is all you need to train on really.

For race wheels I'd recommend zipp tubulars tho. a 404 in front and 808 in back is a killer combo i would recomend.

Zipp clinchers are a fine all purpose wheels. I've got more that two years of nearly daily riding on them and haven't touched them.

Ksyriums aren't close to a race wheel although Mavic tried to sell them that way when they first came out. The one thig they have going for them is they are sturdy.

I agree with the 404/808 combo - a great set of race wheels

i've never been a fan of wheel covers.
Just curious about this comment - everything I've ever heard about them has been positive, with the possible exception of a little additional weight.

Zipp clinchers are a fine all purpose wheels. I've got more that two years of nearly daily riding on them and haven't touched them.

Ksyriums aren't close to a race wheel although Mavic tried to sell them that way when they first came out. The one thig they have going for them is they are sturdy.

I agree with the 404/808 combo - a great set of race wheels


maybe 303 clinchers for an all purpose wheel or 303fr and 404rr clinchers

a 2009 set of zipp team issues come in at 1498g on competitive cyclist

now the advertised wait for my ksyrium es is just 1500 at 1490g.

as for disc covers to me they just dont look to good and a majority of people who ride them dont average a high enough speed to utilize a rear disc wheel.
if you have a high average speed like around 25 mph then go for it

Aero stuff is fine, but have beat folks in TTs with my regular road wheels and non-aero gear.
You're the motor . . .

Ok, so I guess I get to be the one who asks the obvious question? Are you fast enough already that a wheel upgrade will significantly improve your times? If yes, then as others have said, get a decent set of training wheels and a good set of race wheels. If not, then spend your hard earned money on a coach.

I'm really quite satisfied with my cheapo Alex DA22 rimmed + 105/Ultegra hubbed training wheels. Since they haven't come close to falling apart after a year, they're "decent" in my book. My questions are more about getting TT/tri-specific people to discuss what equipment they use and why, since in some previous conversations I've been hearing very different responses. Some are like me, going cheap for training wheels, while some go for Zipp tubies.

It's been interesting studying the reasoning behind people's responses. A perfectly rational reason for training with aero wheels that I've heard is that for people living in very windy environments, having some deep section wheels on gets them familiar with bike-handling (i.e. sensitivity and reaction times to steering adjustments, fine motor control for those adjustments, etc.) - it isn't always just about aerodynamics and power. An emotional and motivational reason for some people who train with aero wheels is just the added mental drive - for them to "know that their bike is faster" makes them want to crank harder, like an added adrenaline rush. If either of these or other factors makes a racer train harder, then it's not a bad thing.

Personally though, I'm sticking to my cheap, perfectly functional training wheels.

It's been an interesting thread here, and in other places as well where I've put the question out. Thanks again for everyone's comments so far, and if you have more to share, please do.

Cheers

as for disc covers to me they just dont look to good and a majority of people who ride them dont average a high enough speed to utilize a rear disc wheel.
if you have a high average speed like around 25 mph then go for it

Interesting response.

Here's some info given to me by a triathlete/cyclist who has done quite a bit of aero testing, including wind tunnel testing. It was in response to a question from me which basically argued the point of 'am I fast enough for aero' and 'should I get a disk wheel/wheelcover?':

======================================================
I started tris 19 years ago with a wheel cover. Sure it didn't make nice noises, but it was seriously fast. Rear wheel only. Illegal for cycle racing. If going for a cover, get something with a nice, low rolling resistance tire. Wheel quality doesn't matter as long as the wheel is true.

If riding slower, if you go more aero, you'll actually save MORE time than someone faster, because you're out there for longer. So everyone should have a crack at aero. Also get an aero helmet if you are serious... this will have as much effect as a disc (seriously), and is best bang for buck.

When to use - all the damn time racing! Seriously, the only time I wouldn't use a disc is if the course was ALL uphill, and steeper than about 6% - then weight becomes more important than aero. Even in Vancouver with a 600m long 5% hill I used a disc and didn't lose anything going up, but was riding down probably 5-10kmh faster than most people.

In cross winds a disc does create a sail effect, just like a boat, region of high pressure on the upwind side and low pressure on the downwind side, which creates a force in the forward direction. Around 15 degree cross wind produces the most amount of lift.
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And this comment is from the coach of someone who recently set a new one hour cycling world record:

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The relative speed gains for a slower or a faster rider are nearly identical when the same improvement in aerodynamics is introduced (such as more aero wheels).
Indeed, on fixed distance courses, the slower rider actually saves more absolute time than a faster rider (since they are on course for longer).
It is a fallacy to believe that one must be "fast" in order to benefit from an improvement in aerodynamics.
======================================================


Given that, they're starting to 'look pretty good'

For your training wheels, anything cheap, slow, heavy and bombproof. I buy second hand sets on eBay for about €80, keep them for a couple of years, they´re basically a disposable item.

For your race wheels I strongly recommend a wheel cover (custom fit by wheelbuilder.com), and don´t worry about crosswinds. Unless it´s blowing an absolute hooner you´ll be OK.

Latex inner tubes and a high-quality set of race clinchers will reduce the rolling resistance of your race wheels.

I have a fairly low-tech Mavic Cosmic Elite race set, but they only set me back €110 (plus the cost of the cover) so I can´t complain really. They´ve proved extremely durable so far.

But, at the end of the day, it´s the engine that counts. Alf Engers went 49´26" for 25 miles on a set up similar to this in the 1970´s so get your training sorted out too.

http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/products/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/alf-engers.jpg

as for disc covers to me they just dont look to good and a majority of people who ride them dont average a high enough speed to utilize a rear disc wheel.
if you have a high average speed like around 25 mph then go for it

After my experience this weekend (second time using the disc in a race but first time on a long rolling course) I disagree here. My average speed is usually in the 17s at best, but the disc wheel Helped me gain a large amount of speed on any fast sections of the course cutting down my overall time. There were multiple multiple riders that I was gaining on just slightly that as soon as we got to even a slight downhill I was able to easily pull up to and away from them. I know from last year I never had that kind of speed and I'm probably in the same or worse cycling condition.



For your race wheels I strongly recommend a wheel cover (custom fit by wheelbuilder.com), and don´t worry about crosswinds. Unless it´s blowing an absolute hooner you´ll be OK.



I agree here, last weekend the course was fairly open there were short retaining walls and guardrails but it was kinda windy and despite my feeling that the wind would bother my wheel it didn't. Well maybe at least not enough for me to notice or think it would cause me handling issues.

I'm totally cool with you disagreeing or saying otherwise from personal experience, but don't you think in a year you might get stronger if you trained?

Focus most your efforts on your motor first. It's the most important.

Kakman:
I dont understand this point
Indeed, on fixed distance courses, the slower rider actually saves more absolute time than a faster rider (since they are on course for longer).
It is a fallacy to believe that one must be "fast" in order to benefit from an improvement in aerodynamics.

Explain it. please.

Workable yes, versatile no. The thing with disk wheels is, if your race has any major crosswinds, you're screwed. the Zipps are just as (if not more) aero because of the insane dimpling that they do to make them the best in the world. If you are sure there will be no major crosswinds, you could also get a wheel cover for the 808 that you could put on and off.

This is usually not true. In crosswinds, the disc cover may act as a sort of "sail" and reduce drag. The bike may be slightly more difficult to handle, but with practice you will usually be faster in crosswinds with a disc cover, even in comparison to a nice wheel like a 808 or 1080. (Dimples are nice, but the depth of the rim is much more important.)

In the vast majority of triathlon races, you will want to run as deep of a rear wheel as you can. This usually means a disc wheel.

As far as a training wheel is concerned, run whatever you have that is relatively cheap and durable. You usually don't want to train on your race wheels, to ensure that your race wheels survive as many races as possible.

Kakman:
I dont understand this point
Indeed, on fixed distance courses, the slower rider actually saves more absolute time than a faster rider (since they are on course for longer).
It is a fallacy to believe that one must be "fast" in order to benefit from an improvement in aerodynamics.
Explain it. please.
Well, I was just quoting the coach but I interpret it to mean this:

Say you have a fixed length course of x miles. A fast rider does it in 60 minutes and a slow rider in 90 minutes. The aero benefit of a disk (which is the same for both riders) is, say, 10% (I'm keeping the figures exaggerated to make the maths simpler). So the fast guy save 6 minutes and the slow guys saves 9 minutes so the absolute time saving for the slower rider is greater because he's on the course longer.

An identical argument could be made for wetsuit. Faster swimmer - less absolute time saving, slower swimmer - greater absolute saving (all other things being equal).

ah i see what you are saying now.
they might benefit more but they are still slower

So be the faster of the two. Train harder

Training is obviously the most important, but there's still no rule I'm aware of that sets an FTP minimum for owning race wheels. Have the cash? Want some fancy wheels? Do it up.

Where did this idea come from that buying nice equipment and working on the motor are somehow an either/or proposition?

I'm totally cool with you disagreeing or saying otherwise from personal experience, but don't you think in a year you might get stronger if you trained?

Focus most your efforts on your motor first. It's the most important.


I agree theres no replacement for training, and its BY FAR the most important part, the bike doesn't do the race for you, you do. However the wheelbuilder disc cover is $80, its cheap! I don't see a problem in spending a few dollars to go a bit faster (emphasis on a few, we all know from other posts I ***** about spending a lot of dollars to go a bit faster).

My training has been spotty this year to say the least due to multiple illnesses, so I would hope I would be faster since last year, but I don't believe that to be the case. But with the cover, I can definitely tell a difference in my MPH especially in downhill sections that are so fast I run out of gear.

I don't think anyone is saying to buy speed rather than train - clearly the best engine, in general, wins. But as RL says, $80 isn't a lot to spend and could potentially save many minutes in a race - way more than a wetsuit might in a swim for instance - and you'd struggle to find a wetty for 80 clams.

As for the OP, I'd be training on any old wheels - stuff you won't care about too much if they do get smashed in potholes. If you have the money to drop on Zipps then go ahead, but be mindful there are much cheaper options which will deliver very similar results.

Personally I train on Aksiums and have found them bullet proof - wouldn't hesitate to buy them again if they got smashed.