Professional Cycling For the Fans - Kloeden's reaction to Stage 17 of TDF

I realize this is a late question, but I'm brand new to this forum. After Stage 17 of the TDF, AC was being slammed for leaving Andreas Kloeden behind to attack the Schleck brothers. From what I've read on other websites and in the press, there are two definite camps on this. The LA supporters all say that AC was being a bad teammate and costing Astana a podium sweep. LA even Twittered about it. The AC supporters say that he was simply trying to protect his lead and prevent the Schlecks from putting time on him. I heard that AC apologized to Kloeden afterward. From what I saw on Eurosport, it appeared that AC was talking to Kloeden before he attacked and that Kloeden didn't have the legs to go with AC.

The one person I haven't heard from on this issue is Kloeden. What was his reaction to what happened in Stage 17? It would have been interesting (to me at least) to hear what Kloeden had to say. Does anybody know? It would be nice to know the real story, which probably lies somewhere between what the AC and LA camps have been saying.

Kloden is a reserved dude. He didn't say anything. Bruyneel wasn't pleased however, but he is firmly in the LA camp.

Would be interesting to hear from either the Schlecks or Bjarne Riis to find out if they would have attacked again if AC hadn't.

I'd also like to know what was said between AC and the Schelcks on the way to the finish line.

Kloden appeared to be very happy in Paris. The guy had a big smile on his face.

Kloden is a professional unlike the other two squabbling nut jobs.

Richard

Kloden is a professional unlike the other two squabbling nut jobs.

Richard

This.

He's a quiet guy, Kloden, which makes him a poor fit for a team leader, but an excellent team mate.

Kloden probably won't say anything until he signs a contract for next season. No sense in burning any bridges until you know who will be signing your paychecks.

Kloden probably won't say anything until he signs a contract for next season. No sense in burning any bridges until you know who will be signing your paychecks.

And then he still won't say anything.

I realize this is a late question, but I'm brand new to this forum. After Stage 17 of the TDF, AC was being slammed for leaving Andreas Kloeden behind to attack the Schleck brothers. From what I've read on other websites and in the press, there are two definite camps on this. The LA supporters all say that AC was being a bad teammate and costing Astana a podium sweep. LA even Twittered about it. The AC supporters say that he was simply trying to protect his lead and prevent the Schlecks from putting time on him. I heard that AC apologized to Kloeden afterward. From what I saw on Eurosport, it appeared that AC was talking to Kloeden before he attacked and that Kloeden didn't have the legs to go with AC.

The one person I haven't heard from on this issue is Kloeden. What was his reaction to what happened in Stage 17? It would have been interesting (to me at least) to hear what Kloeden had to say. Does anybody know? It would be nice to know the real story, which probably lies somewhere between what the AC and LA camps have been saying.

He was trying to put time on the Schlecks, something he didn't need do given his lead. Contador was a better time trialist than the Schlecks, so there was no need for Contador to put time on them in the mountains. By attacking, the potential existed for breaking up the lead group existed. That is what happenned when Kloeden couldn't match the acceleration. His best course would have been to stay on the Schlecks tail, cover their attacks and let them do the work ortherwise. By isolating himself from his teamate, a mechanical problem would have meant he would have needed to try and minimize lost time on the Schlecks riding solo after resolution-Kloeden would have been invaluable to Contador in working a 2 man draft-look at how much time Lance and Kloeden lost to the Schlecks working alone on the latter part of that stage-about 2 minutes. Had the isolated Contador had a flat, Andy would have been right there with Contador on GC.




Kloeden probably would have finished on the podium, probably second if Contador hadn't dropped him, but Andy would have still been on the podium so it didn't prevent a sweep, but it did keep Astana from taking 3 of the top 4.

Good answer.

Would be interesting to hear from either the Schlecks or Bjarne Riis to find out if they would have attacked again if AC hadn't.


That would certainley clear alot of things up, IMO they were done attacking.

He was trying to put time on the Schlecks, something he didn't need do given his lead. Contador was a better time trialist than the Schlecks, so there was no need for Contador to put time on them in the mountains. By attacking, the potential existed for breaking up the lead group existed. That is what happenned when Kloeden couldn't match the acceleration. His best course would have been to stay on the Schlecks tail, cover their attacks and let them do the work ortherwise. By isolating himself from his teamate, a mechanical problem would have meant he would have needed to try and minimize lost time on the Schlecks riding solo after resolution-Kloeden would have been invaluable to Contador in working a 2 man draft-look at how much time Lance and Kloeden lost to the Schlecks working alone on the latter part of that stage-about 2 minutes. Had the isolated Contador had a flat, Andy would have been right there with Contador on GC.




Kloeden probably would have finished on the podium, probably second if Contador hadn't dropped him, but Andy would have still been on the podium so it didn't prevent a sweep, but it did keep Astana from taking 3 of the top 4.

I can't believe I'm getting back into this. :rolleyes:

Kloden would not have been on the podium. Andy would have started attacking the 2nd place position. Kloden clearly could not keep up with AS in the mountains. Kloden was riding at the limit when AC attacked. He didn't just keep up, he fell out the back. Lance and Niboli caught him on the descent and then passed him. That's the sign of a rider who was done. Any attack was going to break him at that point. We don't know if it would have been the Schlecks or not. But the way they had been riding, its not out of the question that they wouldn't have given it another go.

The podium was filled by the three strongest riders over 3 weeks of racing. Kloden was in 4th overall behind LA and Wiggins after stage 16. That one stage was not the difference between Kloden finishing 2nd and 6th. That's complete nonsense. You can't consistently get dropped on big defining climbs in the TdF and finish on the podium. I don't care who's doing the attacking. After watching 21 stages, it was clear that the top 3 most consistent strong riders ended up on the podium. Kloden was obviously not one of them.

What I would like to hear from Kloden is whether or not Contador told him that he was going to attack and asked him if he was okay. And if Kloden's reply was "I'm good, go for it" like AC claimed after the stage. That would tell us quite a bit.

And as another poster said, what would the Saxo boys had done if AC didn't attack them back. One thing that can be said about AC's attack, it probably dashed anymore thoughts of the Schleck boys from going after again that day. Would they have attacked if AC didn't? That's the question, because they would unhitched Kloden anyways.

But Kloden hasn't said anything and probably won't. Probably a good thing. Let it die where it is.

No way Kloden would have finished ahead of A. Schleck. How could he have made the podium? He couldn't even keep up with F. Schleck. Of course Andy would have pushed the pace if AC hadn't. Even if he couldn't gain time on Contador, he needed to drop Kloden, Wiggins, and Armstrong to gain second place in GC.

Kloden wasnt riding for 2nd at that point...he was riding for 3rd. If AC doesnt push and the Schlecks dont attack...Astana goes 1,2,3 into the TT. Armstrong puts more time into Andy in the TT and sticks close enough on stage 20 to take 2nd. Kloden then battles it out with the rest of the contenders for 3rd.

Kloden wasnt riding for 2nd at that point...he was riding for 3rd. If AC doesnt push and the Schlecks dont attack...Astana goes 1,2,3 into the TT. Armstrong puts more time into Andy in the TT and sticks close enough on stage 20 to take 2nd. Kloden then battles it out with the rest of the contenders for 3rd.

That's a lot of speculation. That assumes that AS doesn't start attacking to gain 2nd. Which in turn pushes Lance to 3rd. The reality of it is that Andy Schleck's advantage in the mountains outweighed his difficiency in the TT vs Armstrong and Kloden. AS knows those guys have the advantage in the TT. So he would keep attacking in the mountains. And that went for Frank as well. So the idea of Frank and Andy letting off the attacks is high speculation. That was their greatest strength. So they were going to exploit it to the end.

At Ventoux, Frank had finally given all that he could. Lance still had something in the tank. That's why he was on the podium. Kloden got dropped (again) and couldn't even stay ahead of Wiggins. Andy stopped attacking because he couldn't dump AC and Frank was done. No way do Lance and Kloden keep AS out of second. Neither one of the could hang with him on the big climbs. The only rider that could out climb or even stay with Andy Schleck was Alberto Contador. All of the other Astana guys consistently got dropped.

Astana sweeping the podium was a pipe dream. Especially once Levi went down.

That's a lot of speculation. That assumes that AS doesn't start attacking to gain 2nd. Which in turn pushes Lance to 3rd. The reality of it is that Andy Schleck's advantage in the mountains outweighed his difficiency in the TT vs Armstrong and Kloden. AS knows those guys have the advantage in the TT. So he would keep attacking in the mountains. And that went for Frank as well. So the idea of Frank and Andy letting off the attacks is high speculation. That was their greatest strength. So they were going to exploit it to the end.

At Ventoux, Frank had finally given all that he could. Lance still had something in the tank. That's why he was on the podium. Kloden got dropped (again) and couldn't even stay ahead of Wiggins. Andy stopped attacking because he couldn't dump AC and Frank was done. No way do Lance and Kloden keep AS out of second. Neither one of the could hang with him on the big climbs. The only rider that could out climb or even stay with Andy Schleck was Alberto Contador. All of the other Astana guys consistently got dropped.

Astana sweeping the podium was a pipe dream. Especially once Levi went down.

It's all speculation. No one knew AS would only lose 15 seconds to LA in the TT the next day. Most thought he would lose much more. Second place was no way a lock for AS. What's done is done now. AC attacked and Kloden was dropped. Poor team tactics but it worked for AC and the Schlecks.

It's all speculation. No one knew AS would only lose 15 seconds to LA in the TT the next day. Most thought he would lose much more. Second place was no way a lock for AS. What's done is done now. AC attacked and Kloden was dropped. Poor team tactics but it worked for AC and the Schlecks.

It worked out for Astana as well. 1st and 3rd. Most would not have bet Lance could have pulled 3rd going. AS was clearly the dominant rider outside of AC. The Astana "team" tactics were highly suspect and overly ambitious. Especially after their second strongest rider went down. At that point of the race, they should have been more concerned with building the leaders lead as opposed to trying to fill podium spots with domestiques. Going into that stage, AC didn't have an insurmountable lead. Less than 3 minutes to Andy Schleck, a great climber, and less than 2 minutes to Wiggins, a very good time trialer. The race was hardly locked up at that point and there was a lot of racing to go. To have a team strategy of trying to move up support riders in the standings before the yellow jersey is locked up was foolish.

That's a lot of speculation. That assumes that AS doesn't start attacking to gain 2nd. Which in turn pushes Lance to 3rd. The reality of it is that Andy Schleck's advantage in the mountains outweighed his difficiency in the TT vs Armstrong and Kloden. AS knows those guys have the advantage in the TT. So he would keep attacking in the mountains.

The point is not what he would have done after 17 but what they had done on 17. I watched the stge 3 times. AS and FS had hammered all day. They had given AC a bunch of 1-2 punches and he didnt even wobble. It was 2k to the summit. IMO the schlecks were done, they had hammered at AC and not made a dent. It was time for them to conserve some energy for the next 3 stages. Thats when AC kicks and drops Kloden. Now AS and FS see an opportunity to gain time on Kloden and hammer to the finish, in the process dropping kloden to 5th and Armstrong to 4th.

The point is not what he would have done after 17 but what they had done on 17. I watched the stge 3 times. AS and FS had hammered all day. They had given AC a bunch of 1-2 punches and he didnt even wobble. It was 2k to the summit. IMO the schlecks were done, they had hammered at AC and not made a dent. It was time for them to conserve some energy for the next 3 stages. Thats when AC kicks and drops Kloden. Now AS and FS see an opportunity to gain time on Kloden and hammer to the finish, in the process dropping kloden to 5th and Armstrong to 4th.

Yes, this is true. However, Kloden has sat on wheels the whole day. He looked fresh as a daisy. AC said that told Kloden that he wanted to attack and asked if he was okay. According to AC, Kloden said he was good and was okay with it. AC attacks, Kloden gets shot out the back. If you look at it from AC's point, AC and Kloden go with the Schlecks being gassed. AC and Kloden reach the summit first and hold on during the descent. AC and Kloden both put time on the Schlecks. Not that crazy of a strategy.

That's why I'm curious as to what Kloden has to say about whether or not AC said that to him and his response. And if what AC said is true, how does Kloden explain getting dropped like that. That's fairly significant. But he's saying nothing.

That's a lot of speculation. That assumes that AS doesn't start attacking to gain 2nd.

The Schleck's may have attacked, but I don't think they would have. Although in hindsight Kloden was obviously near his limit, he looked like he was stronger than either of the Schlecks. I know if I was in a similar situation as the Schleck's I would just want to focus on putting time into Wiggins/Armstrong by riding a steady pace; they had to be expecting Kloden to go for the stage win after what happened in 2004.

Yes, this is true. However, Kloden has sat on wheels the whole day. He looked fresh as a daisy. AC said that told Kloden that he wanted to attack and asked if he was okay. According to AC, Kloden said he was good and was okay with it. AC attacks, Kloden gets shot out the back. If you look at it from AC's point, AC and Kloden go with the Schlecks being gassed. AC and Kloden reach the summit first and hold on during the descent. AC and Kloden both put time on the Schlecks. Not that crazy of a strategy.

That's why I'm curious as to what Kloden has to say about whether or not AC said that to him and his response. And if what AC said is true, how does Kloden explain getting dropped like that. That's fairly significant. But he's saying nothing.

Agreed as well. Ive heard AC say that Kloden said he was good to go as well. What bewilders me is why not let Kloden do the attacking if thats the case. He has the most to gain from the attack and thus he should be the one to go, then AC follows and if it works you drop the brothers AND AC has a partner god forbid he has a mechanical or something wierd. I cant imagine AC thought Kloden could match him on the gas uphill. Only person who had even come close was AS. So that brings me back to WHY would AC do the launch and not Kloden??

I can't believe I'm getting back into this. :rolleyes:

Kloden would not have been on the podium.

Read more closely. meb did not say that Kloden would have been on the podium. He said "3 of the top 4", apparently conceding 2nd to AS.

Read more closely. meb did not say that Kloden would have been on the podium. He said "3 of the top 4", apparently conceding 2nd to AS.

This is what he said "Kloeden probably would have finished on the podium, probably second if Contador hadn't dropped him, but Andy would have still been on the podium so it didn't prevent a sweep, but it did keep Astana from taking 3 of the top 4. "

Agreed as well. Ive heard AC say that Kloden said he was good to go as well. What bewilders me is why not let Kloden do the attacking if thats the case. He has the most to gain from the attack and thus he should be the one to go, then AC follows and if it works you drop the brothers AND AC has a partner god forbid he has a mechanical or something wierd. I cant imagine AC thought Kloden could match him on the gas uphill. Only person who had even come close was AS. So that brings me back to WHY would AC do the launch and not Kloden??

Yep. That is a valid point. Its like AC doesn't realize that when he attacks noboby can go with him. I wouldn't be surprised if AC thought that Kloden was just going to "go" with him when attacked. It was like AC said to Kloden, "okay, you're good. Let's go." Then boom, AC takes off. Gets up the rode a bit and looks back (probably with JB screaming in his ear) and sees Kloden out the back. Then he's like, "crap." Backs off, but the damage has been done.

He was trying to put time on the Schlecks, something he didn't need do given his lead. Contador was a better time trialist than the Schlecks, so there was no need for Contador to put time on them in the mountains. By attacking, the potential existed for breaking up the lead group existed. That is what happenned when Kloeden couldn't match the acceleration. His best course would have been to stay on the Schlecks tail, cover their attacks and let them do the work ortherwise. By isolating himself from his teamate, a mechanical problem would have meant he would have needed to try and minimize lost time on the Schlecks riding solo after resolution-Kloeden would have been invaluable to Contador in working a 2 man draft-look at how much time Lance and Kloeden lost to the Schlecks working alone on the latter part of that stage-about 2 minutes. Had the isolated Contador had a flat, Andy would have been right there with Contador on GC.




Kloeden probably would have finished on the podium, probably second if Contador hadn't dropped him, but Andy would have still been on the podium so it didn't prevent a sweep, but it did keep Astana from taking 3 of the top 4.

Yes, and Contador would've then let Kloden have the stage win instead of Frank. The mark of a team leader.

I really think Contador bought into all the hype too much and it made him insecure. He's made mental lapses before but the media hype made things worse.

Next year, he'll be on a team built for him with no Lance, Levi, Kloden around. Only domestiques. And no Johan.

Yes, this is true. However, Kloden has sat on wheels the whole day. He looked fresh as a daisy. AC said that told Kloden that he wanted to attack and asked if he was okay. According to AC, Kloden said he was good and was okay with it....

That's why I'm curious as to what Kloden has to say about whether or not AC said that to him and his response. And if what AC said is true, how does Kloden explain getting dropped like that. That's fairly significant. But he's saying nothing.

From what I read and heard, AC and Kloeden were speaking to each other in English, which is their common language. Neither of them are native English speakers. Maybe there was a misunderstanding due to the language. What I wanted to know in my original post was Kloeden's story. Did AC really ask if Kloeden was okay with AC attacking the Schlecks? Or did Kloeden (or AC) misunderstand something due to the language? I don't know how well Kloeden speaks or understands English because of his East German upbringing. Kids in the former East Germany were required to learn Russian in school instead of English.

As to getting dropped, maybe Kloeden thought that he was able to keep up with AC, but his legs had other plans. I watched that stage and saw AC looking back for Kloeden as he attacked.

No way Kloden would have finished ahead of A. Schleck. How could he have made the podium? He couldn't even keep up with F. Schleck. Of course Andy would have pushed the pace if AC hadn't. Even if he couldn't gain time on Contador, he needed to drop Kloden, Wiggins, and Armstrong to gain second place in GC.

If Kloeden hadn't been dropped he'd have continued to ride the Schlecks' wheels and got the same time that stage. Kloeden would have had fresher legs for the following day's ITT had he not had to push his way solo the rest of the way. Kloeden lost 2:27 that stage after being dropped, he only finished 2:31 behind Andy at the end of the Tour. Kloeden would have been well ahead of Frank and Bradley, would have left the time trial ahead of Lance, and it's more than likely Kloeden would have got much more than those 4 seconds between the time trial and Astana working for Kloeden on stage 19.

Top four would have had 3 Astana riders, Andy would have been on the podium, it would have been close between Andy and Kloeden for second, Lance likely would have been off the podium.

If Kloeden hadn't been dropped he'd have continued to ride the Schlecks' wheels and got the same time that stage. Kloeden would have had fresher legs for the following day's ITT had he not had to push his way solo the rest of the way. Kloeden lost 2:27 that stage after being dropped, he only finished 2:31 behind Andy at the end of the Tour. Kloeden would have been well ahead of Frank and Bradley, would have left the time trial ahead of Lance, and it's more than likely Kloeden would have got much more than those 4 seconds between the time trial and Astana working for Kloeden on stage 19.

Top four would have had 3 Astana riders, Andy would have been on the podium, it would have been close between Andy and Kloeden for second, Lance likely would have been off the podium.

and coach Ditka could have won the title for the '86 Bears all by himself. :rolleyes: I buy exactly zero of the assertions you made here.

Btw, I think finally found the source of the Astana 1-2-3 possibility. It was Johan in an interview (shortly after the stage?). He did say, "Instead of finishing 1-2-3 we will finish 1-4-5." [paraphrase] But I'm pretty sure he mis-spoke on that.

We will never know what was going on between AC, LA and Kloden. On any given day, you feel good or you don't. On the side of a mountain, that costs chunks of time. My only question is everybody faulting Johan Bruyneel for not being good for AC. If not for those two working together, AC would just be another skinny climber for Euskaltel-Euskadi. One of the biggest improvements seen with Johan's team's is time trialing. I know money buys toys, wind tunnel testing, etc., but look at LA, Levi, AC,,,,,,,,, All had genuine major improvements when working with Johan Bruyneel. Coincidence?

Btw, I think finally found the source of the Astana 1-2-3 possibility. It was Johan in an interview (shortly after the stage?). He did say, "Instead of finishing 1-2-3 we will finish 1-4-5." [paraphrase] But I'm pretty sure he mis-spoke on that.

No he spoke correctly. If the attack doesnt occur and (speculation i know) the Schlecks are done attacking...Astana goes into the ITT 1,2,3.

No he spoke correctly. If the attack doesnt occur and (speculation i know) the Schlecks are done attacking...Astana goes into the ITT 1,2,3.

Huge speculation, but possible. What if the Schlecks do attack and pick just the right time and go over the top ahead of AC? Could they work as a pair and put time on him on the decent? I think it is likely.

Now the wild speculation in the other direction is that AC might crash out trying to catch them. To give Bruneel credit where it is due I think he would have minimized the chance. His kind of management seems to avoid compounding problems.

But your speculation is OK, it does not go beyond the start of the TT and stays in hte reasonable range. What I find objectionable is those who then think Mont V. plays out the same when it is clear there were 2 riders who had the legs but had no reason to attack (unless Frank had the legs to attack).

Huge speculation, but possible. What if the Schlecks do attack and pick just the right time and go over the top ahead of AC? Could they work as a pair and put time on him on the decent? I think it is likely.


Well seeing as though AC was never put in any danger ever in the tour on any climb i think its highly unlikely those 2 had the firepower to top AC. AC went whenever he wanted to and dropped anyone and everyone when he did. If AC hadnt been concerned about Kloeden i think he would have gapped the Schlecks...but he realised his mistake sat up and had to ride the wheels of the brothers to the summit and finish. The schlecks hammered to the summit once Kloeden was dropped and he didnt have any trouble staying with them. So i really cant see how any assumption could be made that the schlecks would summit before him.

For the record i am a firm believer that the schlecks were completely done attacking. Kloeden looked fresh and AC showed no weakness. They had attacked and attacked all day. It was only 2km to the summit. It was time to conserve for the ITT and Ventoux. Then Kloeden and LA put more time into AS in the ITT and then on Ventoux its all a big wonder if LA and Kloeden can stay close enough to AS for the podium sweep. Maybe if AS is in 4th for the ITT he doesnt ride quite as inspired and loses more time. Psychologically he must have gotten a HUGE boost when all of a sudden hes in 2nd place and one crash away from winning the TdF.

...For the record i am a firm believer that the schlecks were completely done attacking. Kloeden

A thought here for you. I suspect that, once Lance took off from Wiggins, Saxobank would have heard about it on race radio almost immediately, and the Schlecks would have kicked it in gear. Kloden still would have gotten dropped, but the gap would have been a bit smaller. Still, no way either Armstrong or Kloden would have displaced Andy from 2nd place.


Huge speculation, but possible. What if the Schlecks do attack and pick just the right time and go over the top ahead of AC? Could they work as a pair and put time on him on the decent? I think it is likely. ...

Have you ever seen Frank descend? He's mediocre at best (by pro standards) on anything technical. No way they gap Contador with anything less than a 30 second edge over the summit - and even that (getting that lead on the climb that is) seems quite implausible.


... If not for those two working together, AC would just be another skinny climber for Euskaltel-Euskadi...

Point of information is in order. Contador is not from the Basque region of Spain, and one simply does not get on that squad unless they are. Alberto had a very bright future, wherever he would have gone. True, he may time trial a bit better than he would otherwise (unless he went to Garmin, Columbia, Saxobank, or Liquigas), but on any other team, we'd have gotten a much better measure of what he's capable of doing on climbing stages.

That day was about getting rid of Wiggins, for the Schleck brothers. They said as much before and after the stage. They didn't consider Kloden a threat, so they may not have bothered to shake him off if AC hadn't attacked.

However, if that was the case and they took a look at the GC later, they would likely have put some effort into ditching Kloden in upcoming stages. In any case, it turns out Kloden really didn't have the legs for the mountains in this tour. When your game plan is down to "Kloden could get 2nd if nobody attacks" then you're pretty much screwed anyway. I doubt that Kloden had any such illusions.

[QUOTE=meb;9415823]If Kloeden hadn't been dropped he'd have continued to ride the Schlecks' wheels and got the same time that stage. Kloeden would have had fresher legs for the following day's ITT had he not had to push his way solo the rest of the way. Kloeden lost 2:27 that stage after being dropped, he only finished 2:31 behind Andy at the end of the Tour.

OK, so it's AC's fault Kloeden got dropped? everyone on here saying that he LOOKED fresh must not have been watching the stage. that dude was huffing and leaning, and looked like crap when LA passed him up on the descent. It is Kloeden's fault that he got dropped.

Regardless, who cares? the goal of every team in the tour since the beginning of the tour, until LA began tweeting, is to get their top guy on the podium. that's it. to say that the team goal is to get a podium sweep is ridiculous. why wasn't LA pushing for that when he won all of those tours? he must not be a team player, either, eh?

... but on any other team, we'd have gotten a much better measure of what he's capable of doing on climbing stages.

Possibly, but I don't think of that as necessarily a good thing (for him - we would enjoy the heck out of it). You retain more tactical options if your opponents don't know what your limits are. And IMO JB/Astana deserve credit for them never finding out.

everyone on here saying that he LOOKED fresh must not have been watching the stage. that dude was huffing and leaning, and looked like crap when LA passed him up on the descent. It is Kloeden's fault that he got dropped.
I agree. With Kloden it's hard to tell, but I thought he was pretty near his limit.

The thing is, how close you are to cracking varies from minute to minute. How often have we seen guys dropped, then get some energy and come right back? Or cover one attack then fall to what seems to be a lesser attack?



to say that the team goal is to get a podium sweep is ridiculous. why wasn't LA pushing for that when he won all of those tours? he must not be a team player, either, eh?
Well it's probably pretty unrealisitic, but if you can you should. As for Lance's other teams, name me one where the team had the personnel to even consider it.

I agree. With Kloden it's hard to tell, but I thought he was pretty near his limit.

The thing is, how close you are to cracking varies from minute to minute. How often have we seen guys dropped, then get some energy and come right back? Or cover one attack then fall to what seems to be a lesser attack?



Well it's probably pretty unrealisitic, but if you can you should. As for Lance's other teams, name me one where the team had the personnel to even consider it.

Possible sweep? None. Second man on hte podium? Most of them. A winner of the Vuelta sure has a chance ot Podium, unless of course he is burning himself out setting tempo for Lance. Landis and Hamilton were good enough to Podium, but this never even got discussed for any of them.

Given a strong enough team, yeah they could have podiumed. But it takes more than two to comprise a "strong team". IMO Lance's victory teams were not the strongest teams in Le Tour, except maybe his last.

You've also got to consider the paranoia factor. This year JB clearly knew he could place more than one on the podium, not least because AC was practically guaranteed the top step. But in Lance's early wins, just winning was uncertain. Whenever Lance rode against Ullrich, the top step was never guaranteed - at least in their minds. So you use up a strong man like Landis to get the top step. You go for the next two only when you have the luxury.



but this never even got discussed for any of them.
You know that how?

A thought here for you. I suspect that, once Lance took off from Wiggins, Saxobank would have heard about it on race radio almost immediately, and the Schlecks would have kicked it in gear. Kloden still would have gotten dropped, but the gap would have been a bit smaller. Still, no way either Armstrong or Kloden would have displaced Andy from 2nd place.



Have you ever seen Frank descend? He's mediocre at best (by pro standards) on anything technical. No way they gap Contador with anything less than a 30 second edge over the summit - and even that (getting that lead on the climb that is) seems quite implausible.



Point of information is in order. Contador is not from the Basque region of Spain, and one simply does not get on that squad unless they are. Alberto had a very bright future, wherever he would have gone. True, he may time trial a bit better than he would otherwise (unless he went to Garmin, Columbia, Saxobank, or Liquigas), but on any other team, we'd have gotten a much better measure of what he's capable of doing on climbing stages.

You are going to get in trouble pointing out flaws from both sides. I'll concede I've not seen Frank decend enough to know how weak is is at this (for a pro of course). Is Kloden a decent decender? If so if he had gone with AC and they stayed away from the Schlecks to the top would there have been a chance that AC and Kloden could have put time on them on the decent?

Kloden is an excellent descender. Even if the four had been together at the summit, it's possible AC and AK could have put time on Los Bros on the descent. OTOH, they didn't really need to, so probably wouldn't have tried.

Given a strong enough team, yeah they could have podiumed. But it takes more than two to comprise a "strong team". IMO Lance's victory teams were not the strongest teams in Le Tour, except maybe his last.

You've also got to consider the paranoia factor. This year JB clearly knew he could place more than one on the podium, not least because AC was practically guaranteed the top step. But in Lance's early wins, just winning was uncertain. Whenever Lance rode against Ullrich, the top step was never guaranteed - at least in their minds. So you use up a strong man like Landis to get the top step. You go for the next two only when you have the luxury.



That holds for Lance's wins. So why doesn't it hold this year? AC did not have a significant lead until after the second TT. Why not get him that lead before worrying about second and third?

"no" sounds a lot like "go" if your second language is english.

That holds for Lance's wins. So why doesn't it hold this year? AC did not have a significant lead until after the second TT.

Four minutes isn't a "significant lead"? I'd call it an "insurmountable lead" given that he had no real challengers at that point.


Why not get him that lead before worrying about second and third?
There are several reasons, most of which will come to you if you think about it for a few minutes.

1) He already had it.
2) If you mean even earlier, he didn't want it.

You are going to get in trouble pointing out flaws from both sides. I'll concede I've not seen Frank descend enough to know how weak is is at this (for a pro of course). Is Kloden a decent descender? If so if he had gone with AC and they stayed away from the Schlecks to the top would there have been a chance that AC and Kloden could have put time on them on the descent?

Hard to say. AC and AK are good descenders. AS is not bad. FS does ok if he's not the guy chosing the line. In the Giro, Levi got behind him on a descent near the end of a stage, and he never saw DiLuca again.

I think the initial thought before the final TT was that Kloden could have made the podium. I think this was based on past history where Andy was weak in the TT. However, in retrospect, Andy turned in a great TT which pretty much cements the reality that Kloden couldn't have been on the podium. I don't think the Schlecks would have attacked. AC doing it didn't really do anything realistically in the end but ensure LA wasn't going to get second and could only shoot for 3rd.

Point of information is in order. Contador is not from the Basque region of Spain, and one simply does not get on that squad unless they are. Alberto had a very bright future, wherever he would have gone. True, he may time trial a bit better than he would otherwise (unless he went to Garmin, Columbia, Saxobank, or Liquigas), but on any other team, we'd have gotten a much better measure of what he's capable of doing on climbing stages.

Another point of information is in order. Samuel Sanchez is not Basque, but he rides for Euskatel.

Another point of information is in order. Samuel Sanchez is not Basque, but he rides for Euskatel.

I did not say you have to be a Basque. Sanchez was born in a province that adjoins the Basque region - have no idea where he lived after that. Contador is from Madrid - the exact last place in Spain one would expect to have sympathy from the Basques.