Professional Cycling For the Fans - Revisit the greatest American cyclist debate: LeMond or Armstrong

The new Bicycling magazine has an in-depth article on LeMond, very interesting read, gives us a chance to revisit the greatest American cyclist debate. Running along the bottom of the article is a timeline "LeMond through the years."

It's mind blowing to read of LeMond's accomplishments -- as a very young man and when he's at his peak in the Tour. Some accomplishments of note:

-- wins just about every junior championship that matters
-- 1985: could have won TDF but rode in support of Hinault
-- 1986: wins TDF despite merciless attacks by Hinault
-- 1987: loses 3/4 of blood supply during hunting accident, breaks two ribs, collapses lung, has pellets lodged in heart, liver, intestines, diaphragm, back, leg, foot, arm and hand. Nearly dies.
-- 1989: wins TDF on final day TT, overcoming 50-second deficit to finish 8 seconds ahead of nearest rival. Closest TDF in history.

** first racer to wear HRM in competition, first to use power meter in competition, introduced aero bars to the world.

Armstrong has accomplished quite a lot, but for my money LeMond was the greatest American cyclist. There is a difficult-to-quantify grittiness about LeMond's career that puts him up top for me. Before LeMond came along, I was riding a Schwinn Scrambler.

I don't see a link to the article online, but it's worth buying the magazine for the read. Just to be reminded of how much work this guy did to get to the top -- and stay there. And yes, the post-cycling-career circus is covered as well.

Please give us your thoughts.

cheers

LA did not take drugs.

In the long run GL will always come out on the short end of any debate, if for nothing else but because he's from a day gone by and LA is from today. Even if their accomplishments were dead even GL would be at a disadvantage because of this.

All the rest of the subjective stuff and conjectural stuff is just personal opinions, and in the long run -- by the end of this thread -- nothing will be settled . . . . just a lot of personal opinions vehemently expressed. :)

Sports debate never make any sense. :lol:

Now let me find a good seat and whip up some refreshments. :popcorn

would a peak Lemond win against a peak Armstrong?Lemond had his peak in 85 or 86 Armstrongs peak was proberly between 99 to 05.I honestly think Lemond would have won just by a few short seconds.

92.5 ml/kg/min VO2 max... the guy was a freak!

Can't vote for pcad?

7 TdF wins, 3rd this year after 3+ year layoff. Coming from a very dirty sport full of cheats, Lance's unbelieveable personal story and humanism have elevated him in a way that is possibly unique. The only other athlete I can can think of that compares on a humanist note is Arthur Ashe. Lemond is a comparative footnote.

Mods, please move this thread to Professional Cycling subforum for a proper execution and burial.

I love Greg Lemond. He truly broke new ground for an American cyclist. It's sad that people like Jonathan Boyar, get no respect. With that being said, I wish Lemond would stop with all the criticism & move on with life. Armstrong, love him or hate him, is cycling. He is good for a sport that needs his personality. Lemond wins based on pure talent but Armstrong wins on shear determination.

Can't vote for pcad?

You can certainly make a campaign contribution. PM me for Paypal instructions.

Mods, please move this thread to Professional Cycling subforum for a proper execution and burial.

:thumb:

Lemond certainly has the claim for the greatest cycling finish ever...any race, any era.

I watched the '89 finish "live", so to speak. At that time the Tour was covered by ABC Wide World of Sports in a one show summary format that was broadcast on the same day as the final stage.

On TV, during the actual race, ABC was broadcasting the final round of the British Open. The golf announcers interrupted their regular commentary to report the incredible finish and victory by Lemond. Imagine, the British Open coverage being interrupted by a bike race result. At that time the Tour was about as popular as rugby.

After the British Open ended ABC went to the Tour coverage. Even though I knew the outcome it was absolutely riveting to hear Phil (and I think Paul too) broadcast that last, short, amazing time trial finish.

LA all the way. He will win the Leadville 100 this year too. LA is also a gifted triathlete and marathon runner and while these are tangential items I think it shows him to be the better all around athlete. Plus, he's saving lives not rehashing the past in a bitter way. Don't get me wrong, I do like GL and what he did. Wish he'd just move on and help build the sport.

Nobody will ever beat Lemond winning the '89 TdF by 8 seconds, and to this day, that ride is the FASTEST individual TT average speed ever recorded @ the Tour de France. That was over the top. If you tried to sell that script to Hollywood, they'd reject it as too far fetched. I'll never forget Fignon collapsing on the ground in tears when he realized Lemond had beaten him. What a race.

Lemond certainly has the claim for the greatest cycling finish ever...any race, any era.

I watched the '89 finish "live", so to speak. At that time the Tour was covered by ABC Wide World of Sports in a one show summary format that was broadcast on the same day as the final stage.

On TV, during the actual race, ABC was broadcasting the final round of the British Open. The golf announcers interrupted their regular commentary to report the incredible finish and victory by Lemond. Imagine, the British Open coverage being interrupted by a bike race result. At that time the Tour was about as popular as rugby.

After the British Open ended ABC went to the Tour coverage. Even though I knew the outcome it was absolutely riveting to hear Phil (and I think Paul too) broadcast that last, short, amazing time trial finish.

Me too. I think it's safe to say we'll never see events align like this again.

Nobody will ever beat Lemond winning the '89 TdF by 8 seconds, and to this day, that ride is the FASTEST individual TT average speed ever recorded @ the Tour de France. That was over the top. If you tried to sell that script to Hollywood, they'd reject it as too far fetched. I'll never forget Fignon collapsing on the ground in tears when he realized Lemond had beaten him. What a race.

I still can't believe that this TT time still stands today. I wonder which bike he rode that day, specs, etc.

Mods, please move this thread to Professional Cycling subforum for a proper execution and burial.

Please explain why you are opposed to revisiting this debate. The recent Bicycling magazine article on Lemond is bound to stir debate yet again. Why not discuss it here?

Armstrong has been very good at doing one thing, repeatedly winning the Tour de France. But bicycle racing is not exclusively the Tour de France. There's also the Giro and the Vuelta which are arguably as difficult as the tour. In addition, there are the many European classics.

Lance Armstrong has essentially ignored the Vuelta and the Giro and the other great European classics to focus exclusively on the tour. Because of that, he will never be in the same league as Mercx or Hinault, who in addition to winning multiple tours, also won the Giro or the Vuelta in the same years that they won the tour, as well as other major classics in the same year that they won the tour. And then there is the ultimate challenge, the hour record, which Mercx held for over 20 years and which Armstrong has never attempted.

Comparing Armstrong and Lemonds records, I would say they're just about even. Le Monde rode and won or placed high in many more classics than Armstrong did, which more than makes up for the fact that Armstrong has more Tour wins.

Lemond's victories were mostly "seat of the pants" efforts, more like a good boxing match. A constant battle for control through the entire race (85, 86 & 89). Lemond also won with very little help from a team. That's the difference in Lemond & Armstrong. Armstrong calculated every move & surrounded himself with a super strong team, more like a game of chess.

My take is that as athletes, they were probably very close in ability in their prime. As far as building a team, promoting the sport, creating excitement, etc., you can't argue with Lance's success. Much of that was a result of beating cancer and getting around that cause. While Greg's hunting accident rebound is amazing, it doesn't have the long-term media impact that Lance's cancer or the power of the Livestrong organization. Lance's story is really unbelievable whether you like the guy or not. In my book, the stuff off the bike is part of being a professional cyclist and Lance's history and actions tip the scales heaviliy in his favor.

The debate is valid... in Professional Cycling, where I am moving this.

Armstrong has been very good at doing one thing, repeatedly winning the Tour de France. But bicycle racing is not exclusively the Tour de France. There's also the Giro and the Vuelta which are arguably as difficult as the tour. In addition, there are the many European classics.

Lance Armstrong has essentially ignored the Vuelta and the Giro and the other great European classics to focus exclusively on the tour. Because of that, he will never be in the same league as Mercx or Hinault, who in addition to winning multiple tours, also won the Giro or the Vuelta in the same years that they won the tour, as well as other major classics in the same year that they won the tour. And then there is the ultimate challenge, the hour record, which Mercx held for over 20 years and which Armstrong has never attempted.

Comparing Armstrong and Lemonds records, I would say they're just about even. Le Monde rode and won or placed high in many more classics than Armstrong did, which more than makes up for the fact that Armstrong has more Tour wins.

Those are very good points you make. I can see an argument for both sides. Were it up to personality and "likeability" I'd have to give the nod to LA still, at least in my book. As far as the ITT I just do NOT get it. You have road conditions, wind...etc. It's like saying the downhill ski record at Whiteface was set in 1990 and never beaten, but the conditions may never be like that. So unless someone ran the IDENTICAL conditions and temperature and similar bike...etc how can you say it's the best ITT?

I don't see what the problem would be in discussing this thread in road cycling. It's starting to look like road cycling forum is being reserved for wheel comparisons, frame comparisons, gruppo comparisons, HRM comparisons and other such mundane and tiresome topics.

If you're content with your current bike & components, how many people are interested in these narrow-focused comparison threads, really?

Those are very good points you make. I can see an argument for both sides. Were it up to personality and "likeability" I'd have to give the nod to LA still, at least in my book. As far as the ITT I just do NOT get it. You have road conditions, wind...etc. It's like saying the downhill ski record at Whiteface was set in 1990 and never beaten, but the conditions may never be like that. So unless someone ran the IDENTICAL conditions and temperature and similar bike...etc how can you say it's the best ITT?

Without a doubt. Lemond would never win any popularity contests. Lemond is a whiny, butt-insky that is borderline crazy.

-- 1985: could have won TDF but rode in support of Hinault speculative, unlikely


-- 1986: wins TDF despite merciless attacks by Hinault ok


-- 1987: loses 3/4 of blood supply during hunting accident, breaks two ribs, collapses lung, has pellets lodged in heart, liver, intestines, diaphragm, back, leg, foot, arm and hand. Nearly dies. his turkey impressions were incredibly realistic


** first racer to wear HRM in competition, debatable


introduced aero bars to the world. incorrect


Nobody will ever beat Lemond winning the '89 TdF by 8 seconds, and to this day, that ride is the FASTEST individual TT average speed ever recorded @ the Tour de France. technically incorrrect. Boardman and Zabriske have gone faster.

I don't see what the problem would be in discussing this thread in road cycling. It's starting to look like road cycling forum is being reserved for wheel comparisons, frame comparisons, gruppo comparisons, HRM comparisons and other such mundane and tiresome topics.

If you're content with your current bike & components, how many people are interested in these narrow-focused comparison threads, really?

Let's face it that most fans of racing are likely road cyclists so keeping this thread here is logical. I pop in here looking for more than just product reviews. Face it, I can't afford half the stuff reviewed here anyways.

Without a doubt. Lemond would never win any popularity contests. Lemond is a whiny, butt-insky that is borderline crazy.

Thank you for that insightful psychological analysis

I still can't believe that this TT time still stands today. I wonder which bike he rode that day, specs, etc.

This one. A Bottechia low profile - steel - rumoured by some to be a repainted Cinelli Laser. Mavic componentry, Mavic cowhorn bars, Scott clip on tri-bars, Mavic rear disc.

http://www.cycle1st.co.uk/guides/greglemond.gif

This one. A Bottechia low profile - steel - rumoured by some to be a repainted Cinelli Laser. Mavic componentry, Mavic cowhorn bars, Scott clip on tri-bars, Mavic rear disc,

http://www.cycle1st.co.uk/guides/greglemond.gif

red frame, white fork, small front wheel & large rear.

red frame, white fork, small front wheel & large rear.

Everyone knows red bikes are fastest.

LA for me. Won more, had greater impact.

This one. A Bottechia low profile - steel - rumoured by some to be a repainted Cinelli Laser. Mavic componentry, Mavic cowhorn bars, Scott clip on tri-bars, Mavic rear disc.

http://www.cycle1st.co.uk/guides/greglemond.gif

Those '80s helmets look ridiculous.

All helmets look ridiculous.

Fixed. They might protect your head, but I've never seen a cool looking one.

Don't ALL aero helmets look ridiculous?

The new Bicycling magazine has an in-depth article on LeMond, very interesting read, gives us a chance to revisit the greatest American cyclist debate. Running along the bottom of the article is a timeline "LeMond through the years."

It's mind blowing to read of LeMond's accomplishments -- as a very young man and when he's at his peak in the Tour. Some accomplishments of note:

-- wins just about every junior championship that matters
-- 1985: could have won TDF but rode in support of Hinault
-- 1986: wins TDF despite merciless attacks by Hinault
-- 1987: loses 3/4 of blood supply during hunting accident, breaks two ribs, collapses lung, has pellets lodged in heart, liver, intestines, diaphragm, back, leg, foot, arm and hand. Nearly dies.
-- 1989: wins TDF on final day TT, overcoming 50-second deficit to finish 8 seconds ahead of nearest rival. Closest TDF in history.

** first racer to wear HRM in competition, first to use power meter in competition, introduced aero bars to the world.
Armstrong has accomplished quite a lot, but for my money LeMond was the greatest American cyclist. There is a difficult-to-quantify grittiness about LeMond's career that puts him up top for me. Before LeMond came along, I was riding a Schwinn Scrambler.

I don't see a link to the article online, but it's worth buying the magazine for the read. Just to be reminded of how much work this guy did to get to the top -- and stay there. And yes, the post-cycling-career circus is covered as well.

Please give us your thoughts.

cheers
Armstrong > Lemond

And Lemond didn't introduce aero-bars to the world. As far as I know, the first pro-cyclists to use them in a race were the team members of 7-Eleven in the 1989 Tour De Trump. Jim Ochowicz (7-Eleven Team Director) said the "Tri-Bars" (as they were called at the time) were supposed to be a "secret weapon" for the Tour, but protecting Dag Otto Lauritzen's first place GC standing necessitated their use of the on the final TT of the '89 Tour De Trump. Dag ended up beating Eric Van Derahrden, who unfortunately went of course in the final TT, into second place.

Greatest American professional racing cyclist? Many make persuasive arguments for Taylor, but I've always thought it would be Zimmerman.

tcs

The only arena in which Armstrong is superior to LeMond, is propaganda/public relations...

Considering the audience, it's not a great accomplishment.

BTW, Bicycling Magazine must have got wind that Trek is desperately trying to settle LeMond's lawsuit.

It's not going to go well for them and their poster boy.

Nobody will ever beat Lemond winning the '89 TdF by 8 seconds, and to this day, that ride is the FASTEST individual TT average speed ever recorded @ the Tour de France. That was over the top. If you tried to sell that script to Hollywood, they'd reject it as too far fetched. I'll never forget Fignon collapsing on the ground in tears when he realized Lemond had beaten him. What a race.

Please forgive the hyperbole but that is the single greatest TT I have ever seen, if not the greatest single race I have ever seen.

Cheers,

Brian J.

Actually, it isn't speculation. Armstrong did, in fact, test positive for EPO in retroactive testing conducted in 2005. There were 6 samples that tested positive for EPO from his 1999 Tour win. Just because he was not sanctioned does not mean that he didn't test positive. He did. This coupled with other strong evidence linking him to a doctor convicted of providing EPO to several cyclists makes Armstrong's Tour de France wins as not legitimate.

It's like saying that Barry Bonds is the greatest ever baseball player. The only evidence pointing to Barry's drug usage is his link to a trainer who was busted for providing drugs to other players. The evidence against Armstrong is far greater.

1) Greg Lemond
2) Andy Hampsten

Major Taylor - hands down. He would eat these two for breakfast and pass them before lunch.

From The Major Taylor Association (http://www.majortaylorassociation.org/biography.htm):
December 1896 -- Taylor finishes eighth in his first professional race, a six-day endurance event at Madison Square Garden in New York.

1898 -- Taylor holds seven world records, including the 1-mile paced standing start (1:41.4).

Aug. 10, 1899 -- Taylor wins the world 1-mile championship in Montreal, defeating Boston rival Tom Butler. Taylor is the second black world champion athlete, after bantamweight boxer George Dixon's title fights in 1890-91.

Nov. 15, 1899 -- Taylor knocks the 1-mile record down to 1:19.

September 1900 -- Thwarted in previous seasons by racism, Taylor finally gets to complete the national championship series and becomes American sprint champion.

October 1900-January 1901 -- Taylor performs in a vaudeville act with Charles "Mile-a-Minute" Murphy, racing on rollers on theater stages across Massachusetts.

March -June 1901 -- Taylor competes in Europe, which he had long resisted because his Baptist beliefs precluded racing on Sundays. He beats every European champion.

Major Taylor - hands down. He would eat these two for breakfast and pass them before lunch.

From The Major Taylor Association (http://www.majortaylorassociation.org/biography.htm):
December 1896 -- Taylor finishes eighth in his first professional race, a six-day endurance event at Madison Square Garden in New York.

1898 -- Taylor holds seven world records, including the 1-mile paced standing start (1:41.4).

Aug. 10, 1899 -- Taylor wins the world 1-mile championship in Montreal, defeating Boston rival Tom Butler. Taylor is the second black world champion athlete, after bantamweight boxer George Dixon's title fights in 1890-91.

Nov. 15, 1899 -- Taylor knocks the 1-mile record down to 1:19.

September 1900 -- Thwarted in previous seasons by racism, Taylor finally gets to complete the national championship series and becomes American sprint champion.

October 1900-January 1901 -- Taylor performs in a vaudeville act with Charles "Mile-a-Minute" Murphy, racing on rollers on theater stages across Massachusetts.

March -June 1901 -- Taylor competes in Europe, which he had long resisted because his Baptist beliefs precluded racing on Sundays. He beats every European champion.

Thanks for throwing Major in there. Most have never heard of him. And he definitely warrants being in the conversation.

If you've never hear of Major Taylor then you might like to know that the original Madison Square Garden was built for track cycling, although I think it closed shortly before Major Taylor hit the scene...

Quite incredible to think of the place he played in sports and race.

-spence

Thanks for throwing Major in there. Most have never heard of him. And he definitely warrants being in the conversation.


Hey, you're welcome. He had obstacles barring his way to the starting line that L & G never dreamed of.


And after Taylor, I'll say Phinney. Davis Phinney. Not Taylor Phinney, not yet.

Then the other two, in no particular order.

I still can't believe that this TT time still stands today. I wonder which bike he rode that day, specs, etc.

It was a Bottechia TT Bike, you can see it at Velo Pasadena, the pic is 5th down on the left side of the page.. I think he was using a 56x11 gear at the top end.. Of course one wonders what he could have done with a wind tunnel tested bike and the lighter equipment of today..

http://velopasadena.com/page.cfm?pageID=115

Please forgive the hyperbole but that is the single greatest TT I have ever seen, if not the greatest single race I have ever seen.

Cheers,

Brian J.


Here is the 89 coverage as well as most of the important stages from 1985-1986 and 1989

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvwtOQYQ-E&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=socalrider909&view=videos

Thanks for throwing Major in there.

Four posts after I did.

tcs

Can I vote for Major Taylor?

Four posts after I did.

tcs

Opps. Didn't even see your post above.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z132/glibartfan/midget2.gif