Professional Cycling For the Fans - The Weight of Pro Bikes

Looking through a Winning magazine from 1991. They had a feature on Gianni Bugno's World's winning bike. A lug-less steel Moser with Dura Ace & 36 spoke hubs that weighs in at 23 pounds 11 ounces! Winning points out that the 36 spoke wheels are probably not those ridden in the worlds but still that makes for a heavy bike.
Doe's anyone have any info on pro bike weights & how they evolved down to todays sub 16 pound bikes?

Carbon fiber, lighter components, 200 grams shaved here and there every season.

^ development in carbon fiber has been probably the greatest advancement. it started with frames, but now look at it, carbon everything... bars, stems, brakes, rims, spokes, hubs, cranks, BBs, seatposts, saddles, even deraillers. i think the only thing i haven't seen carbon fiber on yet is the chain.

there are obviously other factors and metal alloy parts have still gotten much lighter, but carbon is at a point where it is lighter than almost any (safe) steel or alum parts.

Michael Barry wrote in Velonews about CF rims melting while descending on an 8 hour 110 degree stage at the last Giro. Hard to believe but...

Michael Barry wrote in Velonews about CF rims melting while descending on an 8 hour 110 degree stage at the last Giro. Hard to believe but...

That's nearly impossible to believe. Carbon fiber is not plastic. There may have been a major malfunction of the resin, but it would take an amazing screw up for that to happen. I'm more worried about aluminum rims heating and warping than I am of carbon fiber rims failing due to heat.

That's nearly impossible to believe. Carbon fiber is not plastic. There may have been a major malfunction of the resin, but it would take an amazing screw up for that to happen. I'm more worried about aluminum rims heating and warping than I am of carbon fiber rims failing due to heat.

Actually that's not true. Carbon fiber is a mixture of Epoxy resin and carbon fibers. And epoxy is considered a type of plastic. Also carbon fiber transfers heat poorly. So once the heat builds up in the wheel it probably has a hard time getting rid of the heat.

Looking through a Winning magazine from 1991. They had a feature on Gianni Bugno's World's winning bike. A lug-less steel Moser with Dura Ace & 36 spoke hubs that weighs in at 23 pounds 11 ounces! Winning points out that the 32 spoke wheels are probably not those ridden in the worlds but still that makes for a heavy bike.
Doe's anyone have any info on pro bike weights & how they evolved down to todays sub 16 pound bikes?

Sounds a little heavy to me. By the late 70's, early 80's it was pretty common to have sub 20 lb bikes.

Sounds a little heavy to me. By the late 70's, early 80's it was pretty common to have sub 20 lb bikes.

Ah, more from 1990 winning.
Greg Lemond's Worlds TVT Carbon, Mavic, 28 hole wheels, 18-19 lbs.
Katrin Tobins's Huffy, True Temper RSX, D-A, 28 hole, 20.5 lbs.
Sean Kelly's Concorde SLX, C-Record, 32 hole, 21 lbs.

Does it mean the riders back then are stronger?

Does it mean the riders back then are stronger?

Only if they completed climbs in the same or better times as today with a heavier bike+rider, right?

That's nearly impossible to believe. Carbon fiber is not plastic. There may have been a major malfunction of the resin, but it would take an amazing screw up for that to happen. I'm more worried about aluminum rims heating and warping than I am of carbon fiber rims failing due to heat.

"Carbon fiber" *is* plastic, reinforced with fibers of carbon.

Sounds a little heavy to me. By the late 70's, early 80's it was pretty common to have sub 20 lb bikes.
Yeah, that does seem a bit heavy. In 1990, I had a Scapin with Shimano 600 Ultegra, and I think it weighed in under 21lbs. That same year, I remember a fellow club member having a Vitus Carbon 9, and when I picked it up, I was impressed by its feathery light weight; I think it came in at the 18 to 19lbs range. Not too bad at the time.

Does it mean the riders back then are stronger?

Cycling is a sport that if you had a time machine and grabbed a guy off his bike in like 1950 and put him on todays bike, he would compete. In many sports that is not true. Stronger, not sure, average speeds were slower but then again the route was often much longer.

"Carbon fiber" *is* plastic, reinforced with fibers of carbon.

Sort of. While the resin used to reinforce cf is considered a type of polymer, it is unlike that of run-of-the-mill plastics. Resin is usually a thermosetting plastic meaning it cures at a very high temperature, usually above 200C. This gives them an incredibly high melting point. This is one of the reasons cf can be used in high temp applications. Traditional plastic usually has a melting point of >150C.

Also pro bikes are usually regulated by the UCI to weigh more than the state of the art would allow for "safety". Current minimum weight is 6.8 kg which is like 14.9 lbs, whereas during non-UCI races there are bikes weighing in at 10-11 lbs or something crazy like that.

Greg Calfee has a complete bike from 1991 that was ridden in the Tour. The guy in the office told me it was under 19lbs.

Sort of. While the resin used to reinforce cf is considered a type of polymer, it is unlike that of run-of-the-mill plastics. Resin is usually a thermosetting plastic meaning it cures at a very high temperature, usually above 200C. This gives them an incredibly high melting point. This is one of the reasons cf can be used in high temp applications. Traditional plastic usually has a melting point of >150C.

I hate to get nit picky but in all the engineering books that I have studied Thermoset resins are still considered plastics. Also, there is a range of temperatures that the resin cures at depending on the type of resin. But curing and melting are different things. Thermosets do not harden by cooling off but by chemical cross linking which occurs at the curing temperature. And while some thermosets don't actually melt in the same way that thermoform plastics do. They can still deform much more at higher temperatures.

As far as I know general type epoxies are good up to around 600F of continuous temperature. And some higher temperature ones can go higher. Most thermoforms melt at around 400F. But would have a much lower continuous use temperature.

I'm not searching but there was a good thread somewhere recently on BF that pictured a TdF winner and his bike from about each decade. It really wasn't until lately that the bikes went much under 10kg. I was surprised. Even Mig's pictured bike was over 20#.

Here's from this (http://velonews.com/article/92423/columbia-highroad-s-michael-barry-gives-an-inside-view-of) article:

While the climbs were physically exhausting the descents were mentally exhausting. Descending on roads that were never long and straight, but rough, graveled and winding we finished the stage with sore arms from the hours of braking. By the end of the day the pads were worn thin and my hands blistered. Like pigs nearing their end at the slaughterhouse, our brakes squealed under the pressure of the heat and load as we approached each switchback. On the descents carbon rims melted and tires exploded. The wear of the day was evident everywhere.

All should read that Michael Barry article. It's a good look at just how difficult racing can be.

I suspect he meant that the brake pads melted rather than the rims.

Regards.

FWIW, there was an aluminum Barra in the 1948 TdF that weighed in at 17.8 lbs.

Light bikes have always been available to riders but lightness has not always been the most important factor when choosing a bike. For example, Coppi's '52 Bianchi had steel cranks yet TA had been making lighter aluminum cranks for over a decade. Why the heavy steel cranks? Most likely Coppi thought the "better" Q-factor of the steel made more difference than lightness.

Lightness was not the cyclist's wet dream in the past as it is today.

23-11 sounds heavy. I have an SP tubed Merckx Pro from the mid eighties w/SR and 36 spoke Nisi Tubulars that doesn't weight that much. If I remember correctly it comes in just over 22. Most the pro's of that era were on bikes just under 20.

With regard to the off topic discussion of carbon rims. From an engineering stand point they are made from FRP (fibre reinforced platic) in this case the fibre is "carbon" but the binding material is still considered plastic. And yes, depending upon the resin used the melting point can vary.

See Jan Heine's recent book, "The Competition Bicycle." It's a full history of actual racing bike, and he weighed each bike complete with saddles and pedals. Except for a few rare track bikes, and a few bike with exotic parts or drilled-out components, most of the classic racing bikes were well over 20 ponds:

Some weights from that book:


Sean Kelly's 1991 Concorde: 22.8 lb
A. Hampsten's 1988 Huffy (actually a Landshark): 22 lb
Greg Lemond's 1981 Gitane: 22 lb.
E. Merckx's 1974 deRosa: 24.3 lb.
B. Waddell's 1965 Cinelli Supercorsa: 25.3 lb (this was a bike bought retail by a college student who was racing at the time)
1948 Wilier Tristina: 23.1 lb
1910 Labor Tour de France: 29.3 lb

Earlier thread here:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=503679&highlight=jan+heine+bicycle

"Carbon fiber" *is* plastic, reinforced with fibers of carbon.

To clarify about the melting issue: there are 2 basic kinds of plastic: thermoplastics and thermosets. Thermoplastics melt and are used in processes like injection molding. Thermosets are plastics in which the molecular bonds form by a chemical reaction, epoxy being one example. The cured resin will burn and char before reaching the melting point.

I would like to see a scale on one of Kelly's Vitus framed bikes.

I suspect he meant that the brake pads melted rather than the rims.

Regards.

This is possible. Although the brake pads are made to take quite a bit of heat. But I'm thinking that because carbon fiber is so poor a conductor of heat it may have caused the brake pads to get much hotter than usual. With an aluminum wheel the heat will go out through the wheel since aluminum is likely a much better conductor of heat than the brake pad is. So heat will take the path of least resistance. And the wheel having a much larger surface area than the brake pad can cool better in the airflow.

FWIW, there was an aluminum Barra in the 1948 TdF that weighed in at 17.8 lbs.

Light bikes have always been available to riders but lightness has not always been the most important factor when choosing a bike. For example, Coppi's '52 Bianchi had steel cranks yet TA had been making lighter aluminum cranks for over a decade. Why the heavy steel cranks? Most likely Coppi thought the "better" Q-factor of the steel made more difference than lightness.

Lightness was not the cyclist's wet dream in the past as it is today.

My guess is that Armstrong had a strong influence on light bikes. Since he was always asking Trek for lighter stiffer bikes. He knew that to have an advantage on the climbs could be the difference of winning the tour or not.

One thing that I read the other day talked about how if the bike frame has the right compliance it is safer on descents because it sticks to the road better. But this might be at odds with total stiffness factor. I imagine that early aluminum bikes had really bad riding characteristics. It has taken the manufacturers several years to learn how to build good aluminum and carbon fiber frames and the approaches are different than with steel. The Italians pretty much had steel frame bike building down to an art form. And I'm sure that early aluminum bikes had horrid handling.

Guys--carbon fiber brake rotors already exist (expensive, but they do exist and work), so I have a seriously hard time believing that a carbon fiber bike wheel will explode or melt unless the wheel was just a complete piece of crap.

And don't airplanes use a carbon fiber braking system?

http://www.carbonfibergear.com/ferrari-599xx-now-with-carbon-fiber-brake-rotors/

http://www.carbonfibergear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/4-carbon-fiber-rotors-from-ferrari-599xx.jpg

For motorcycles:

http://www.kingpincruisers.net/images/products/witchdoctor/BRCCarbonBrakeRotor.jpg

What I think he meant was that the glue on the carbon rims were melting, not the rims itself. Most pros use tubular rims and they have to be glued onto the rim. It isn't uncommon for glue to get warm and melt on these long mountain descents where there is a lot of braking. The danger is that the tire is not firmly held onto the rim and there is a higher chance of the tire rolling right off the rim in a corner. It has happened before.

What I think he meant was that the glue on the carbon rims were melting, not the rims itself. Most pros use tubular rims and they have to be glued onto the rim. It isn't uncommon for glue to get warm and melt on these long mountain descents where there is a lot of braking. The danger is that the tire is not firmly held onto the rim and there is a higher chance of the tire rolling right off the rim in a corner. It has happened before.

That, I can believe.

keep in mind that carbon technology is ever evolving as well...don't fool yourselves in believing that everyone got it right from the start. Could wheels have melted and gotten gummy? Sure. That in turn would have started a new quest to fine tune the carbon to be more resilient to heat. Common sense and mistakes is how lessons are learned. The first carbon tubed bikes sucked. The first aluminum bikes sucked. I'm sure the first steel bikes sucked too. With time comes advancement in science. You can get superlight steel frames now that are only as light as they are due to heat treating and alloying properties...that all took years of research and development. Same holds true for ANY material.

I would like to see a scale on one of Kelly's Vitus framed bikes.

They tried to weigh it but the frame kept flexing over the scale to the point they couldn't get an accurate reading.

I bought new and still have a crica 1980 Motobecane Champion full Campy Tubular etc that is arround 20 lbs with the Super Record Alum and Ti clip pedals. It is lugged 531 Reynolds and they had just come out with 753 that was lighter by about 9 ozs and you could drill everything full of holes. Seventeen pounds was then but not reliable either. I also have an 09 P1 6.9 Trek Campy under 16lbs stock that can be brought down to under 13 with 13 lbs of $100 dollar bills.

Now the point: we are talking about 4+ pounds total weight loss since 1980 with all the material changes and engineering the pedal stroke to the road efficiency, and the more scientific training and we are not really going that much faster. Why? The basic road bicycle design is almost perfect.

I raced a 19 lb Klein in the mid 80's, running tubulars but nothing too special otherwise. Maybe someone won the worlds on a 23 lb bike after that, but it was apparently odd enough to get a mention in Winning.

I bought new and still have a crica 1980 Motobecane Champion full Campy Tubular etc that is arround 20 lbs with the Super Record Alum and Ti clip pedals. It is lugged 531 Reynolds and they had just come out with 753 that was lighter by about 9 ozs and you could drill everything full of holes. Seventeen pounds was then but not reliable either. I also have an 09 P1 6.9 Trek Campy under 16lbs stock that can be brought down to under 13 with 13 lbs of $100 dollar bills.

Now the point: we are talking about 4+ pounds total weight loss since 1980 with all the material changes and engineering the pedal stroke to the road efficiency, and the more scientific training and we are not really going that much faster. Why? The basic road bicycle design is almost perfect.

You are so right,but , it ; ( reality) has become ------------------ inconceivable.

You are so right,but , it ; ( reality) has become ------------------ inconceivable.

True. Its a race to the 'bottom', so to speak, with all the companies boasting about shaving grams. Bragging rights, I think.

LA says his bike in the '99 tour was 20 lbs. It's crazy how much things can change within 10 years.

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/madone/5_series/video/weight_matters/

True. Its a race to the 'bottom', so to speak, with all the companies boasting about shaving grams. Bragging rights, I think.

you mean a race to a lighter bottom,and shaving grams from the water bottles?

you mean a race to a lighter bottom,and shaving grams from the water bottles?

Haha yeah. Some of the weight saving claims sound ridiculous. But as a post above pointed out, over the decade, minor weight savings have added up to something substantial.

Guys--carbon fiber brake rotors already exist (expensive, but they do exist and work), so I have a seriously hard time believing that a carbon fiber bike wheel will explode or melt unless the wheel was just a complete piece of crap.

In all fairness, carbon-carbon brakes do not contain an epoxy. They are sintered under extreme heat and pressure.

The fun with carbon-carbon brakes is when you over-heat them, which can be done. They simply oxidize. What is the most common form of an oxide of carbon? Carbon Dioxide. They literally vaporize.

Haha yeah. Some of the weight saving claims sound ridiculous. But as a post above pointed out, over the decade, minor weight savings have added up to something substantial.
I agree with the notion that Italy had steel down to an art,and, my take for that reason would be:
1-The consideration of the simple fact that after a long climb comes a long descent.
2-On a descent when speeds go beyond 60kmph ,you want to feel your bike, your safety depends on it.
The term "technical descent" became a household term when pro riders descending the Alps or Pyrenees with a pocket book between their legs must do so just to stay in contention.Any non trained rider,rolling down at that speed with a 6.8kg bike would be very unsafe. He would probably burn the brake pads just to maintain control.
Sadly that's what pros have to put out nowadays .
Veterans seem to be very happy with their 20lbs rigs.

That's nearly impossible to believe. Carbon fiber is not plastic. There may have been a major malfunction of the resin, but it would take an amazing screw up for that to happen. I'm more worried about aluminum rims heating and warping than I am of carbon fiber rims failing due to heat.

This is actually a problem, Reynolds crbon clinchers are known to have this happen.
The rim de-laminates or warp's at the breaking surface.
I have also seen the same on an Edge clincher.

Im wondering when they are going to start making their drinks lighter :sarcasm: