Commuting - Why Public Transportation and Bikes will NEVER mix in the Toronto Area

Apart from the fact that transit in the Toronto area (hereafter referred to as the GTA - Greater Toronto Area) is completely broke and always begging for cash, I have a new reason why bikes will never be an integral part of transit.

No respect for bikes as vehicles by the "professional" drivers of said transit systems.

A little backgrounder...

I'm getting better at the whole bike commute thing -- I go from Winston Churchill and Eglinton in Mississauga to Yonge and Queen in Toronto -- between 37 and 45 km depending on specific route choices -- a couple of times a week (working up to daily, I swear).

This route takes place on little used tertiary roads and a large portion of the Waterfront Trail.

There are a couple of places where I do have to ride on Lakeshore Blvd. both in Mississauga and Toronto.

This morning, as I'm crusing along lakeshore, between cawthra and dixie at between 28 and 30km/h, a Mississauga Transit bus thunders up beside me - giving me less than the comfortable 18" off of my left elbow. I watch in total disbelief as the bus pull no more than 10 feet in front of me, flips on his right turn signal and brakes as he pulls into a bus shelter.

I immediately slam on my brakes (guess what, full size busses have better brakes than bikes) and feel my rear wheel leave the ground. I scoot off the seat backwards to prevent a high speed collision with the back bumper of the bus.

I manage to stay on two wheels and as I cruise past the bus drivers' open window, I shout an obscenity at him (similar to what VP Cheney said in the Senate).

As he next passes me, he again gives me less than 18" clearance and honks his horn at me. Disconcerting and unpleasant.

I pull over to the side and call MT Administration to file a complaint on bus number 9826.

The woman on the phone doesn't seem interested in taking the complaint and beligerently states that I should receive a call back from the supervisor in 10 business days. I explain that since this is a highway traffic act violation, I expect an answer in 12-24 hours. She repeats the line about 10 business days.

As I pass the bus pulled in at Long Branch the driver gives me the finger.

I went back and asked him if it was customary to abuse cyclists. He explained that I had plenty of room. I asked him how he could judge that from 40 feet away compared to my close up view. He told me to get off the road if I didn't like what he did.

So.

Things I've learned:

A) The chances of bus bike racks working in Mississauga's Transit system are NIL.
B) I'm buying an air horn and a mirror at MEC
C) I'm taking the lane instead of being a nice guy - Lakeshore is 4 lanes plus a shared turning lane, I'm going to take all of the right lane - screw the cars
D) I'm not going to stop because of people like him
E) MT is going to get an earful when the supervisor calls

Things I'm not sure about:

A) Should I file a police report

Any advice is appreciated.

Myrcurial

I used to commute in Toronto and didnt have too much problem with busses, although I find Montreal bus drivers more considerate of cyclists. Bus drivers find cyclists irritating because they often make about the same average speed, with the bike passing the bus at stops and the bus passing the bike between stops.

Get a third-eye mirror mounted on your glasses, so you can be continually aware of the traffic behind you. If you see a bus coming up behind you, as you approach a bus stop, signal and pull out into the next lane. The bus can then pass on the inside and slow for the stop without having to worry about giving you room.

I echo the advice about the mirror. I ride in Winnipeg here and it has its bad times.

A mirror is great for preventing these types of situations. I always keep an eye out for buses, or wide pickup trucks, etc.

Then if the lane is a bit tight, I will pull slighly into a turn-in for a parking lot (but my bike is still parallel to the road) and wave them through by hand.

That being said, I think the closest I've been passed was by a bus and that was mighty scary (I had only been commuting on busy streets for under 2 months)

Ride safe!
-xan-

I lived in Toronto for about a year, unfortunately I was not a cyclist then. Toronto must have some nice routes?! It's just way too bad that drivers don't respect cyclists, unfortunately that bus driver was a punk. Living back home in Montreal, I agree with AndrewP that our bus drivers here are pretty considerate, I guess occasionally you will get one loser bus driver that won't budge, but that's not enough to sway my opinion on them.

Although there was this one time when I actually had to take the bus from the train station during the winter and the driver left 2 mintues early, I ran to catch up to him at a light and the loser would not open the door! He told me to go to the next stop which was hella far, then he would open the door. I have never cursed so much! Filed and wrote a letter to the Montreal Transit but nothing ever materialized.

Yes, get a mirror and a horn. Get one that sounds like a car horn if possible (I have an electric horn; it's loud, but it just doesn't "register" with drivers as a warning device).

Also, file the police report. Send a copy to TTC (or whatever they're called these days). Call them again, advise them that you've filed the police report, and repeat your demand for a reply within a day. If/when that lapses, notify your local elected official (city councillor / alder ?), copy the TTC, and repeat the reply demand. If/when that lapses, take it next to the mayor's office, same routine. In EVERY communication, mention the driver's conduct (not just his driving, but his conduct in his exchange[s] with you, such as giving you the finger); demand to know if that's considered permissible conduct; demand to be shown where it's documented that it's permissible conduct.

What about local media? At the very least, a letter to the editor, describing how local citizens' taxes are being spent, is in order.

I manage to stay on two wheels and as I cruise past the bus drivers' open window, I shout an obscenity at him (similar to what VP Cheney said in the Senate).
Myrcurial

I'd point out that he made an error in judgement and you then started the escalation of the situation. I certainly hope you are as eager to mention that fact in any complaint or report as you are his actions. Did it occur to you that maybe he was unaware how close he came to you? How would you react to someone slipping along side you and shouting obscenities? Judging by the tales of woe so often posted on this forum by cyclists who go nuts whenever anyone shouts at them, I'd bet you would have been about as pleased as Mr. Bus Driver.

Paul

I'd point out that he made an error in judgement and you then started the escalation of the situation. I certainly hope you are as eager to mention that fact in any complaint or report as you are his actions. Did it occur to you that maybe he was unaware how close he came to you? How would you react to someone slipping along side you and shouting obscenities? Judging by the tales of woe so often posted on this forum by cyclists who go nuts whenever anyone shouts at them, I'd bet you would have been about as pleased as Mr. Bus Driver.

Paul

You are totally right on this one. I was wrong to swear at him -- the reason I'm getting the air horn -- it's got more punch than yelling. I did mention it in the complaint and later this aft when I talk to Peel Regional Police, I'll be sure to include it there.

I do think however, that as a "professional" driver, his skill set on the road and in his vehicle should be significantly higher than mine. He should have an understanding of the exact parameters of that vehicle such that he would be aware of the distances to the left and right and front and rear of the vehicle at all times.

As I mentioned, I'm no longer going to attempt to "share" the lane. Especially with vehicles that are prone to this behaviour.

It certainly seems like a driver issue. But how the administration addresses your complaint may be an issue as well.

Anyway, just wanted to comment that the bus drivers where I live are perhaps the most courtious of all drivers. They always try and move one lane away (roads I ride are 2-3 lane each direction) and if they can't either wait or move enough to left to give nice clearance.

The only time I struggle with busses is when I am behind them and can not safely pass when they are making frequent stops (every 1/4 mile). So I end up waiting behind bus at stops - sucking those fumes. I can't pass safety since cars behind be are passing dangerously, like gunning it to get around bus with inches of clearance to spare, not looking ahead at me if I am trying to pass, but looking behind them for a gap in traffic. So I wait, bus goes, looses me, then I catch it at next bus stop & repeat.

Al

The only time I struggle with busses is when I am behind them and can not safely pass when they are making frequent stops (every 1/4 mile). So I end up waiting behind bus at stops - sucking those fumes.


It amazes me how many threads continue to appear on this board about buses. I said it before that the problem stems from the fact that many bus lines time the drivers resulting in aggressive behavior. I would not play leap frog with the bus so if you can't manage 15 MPH, let the bus pass and wait 2 minutes.

I've had my experience with bus drivers and find them to be worse than trucks when it comes to taking chances with MY life. They fully expect you to hold a straight line while they pass within inches of your bike. Since these drivers have the ability to control these buses like cars, they don't car about the cyclists but the few seconds they save by cutting you off!

As for bike racks, you don't need them. The folding bike is the solution. (www.dahon.com)
You don't like 20' inch wheel folding bikes? Then continue to fight with the buses.

It amazes me how many threads continue to appear on this board about buses. I said it before that the problem stems from the fact that many bus lines time the drivers resulting in aggressive behavior. I would not play leap frog with the bus so if you can't manage 15 MPH, let the bus pass and wait 2 minutes.

I've had my experience with bus drivers and find them to be worse than trucks when it comes to taking chances with MY life. They fully expect you to hold a straight line while they pass within inches of your bike. Since these drivers have the ability to control these buses like cars, they don't car about the cyclists but the few seconds they save by cutting you off!

As for bike racks, you don't need them. The folding bike is the solution. (www.dahon.com)
You don't like 20' inch wheel folding bikes? Then continue to fight with the buses.

I'd totally be into a folder if I was planning on doing partial trips on the bus. I was mostly basing that part of the rant on the experience I had during a couple of trips to San Jose / Santa Clara / Palo Alto in California and the cool front mount bike racks and how courteous the bus drivers were with bike riders. How that can be a great solution to the ridiculous sprawl problem that exists there and is paralleled nicely in the GTA. I don't do partial trips with the bus because none of the routes line up with the way I need to go. I would (and now am) considering a folder for use on GO transit (which I do take frequently) so that I don't have to leave my bike at the station.

Given that the bus driver has better sight lines to the side of the bus, I think he's more comfortable taking risks than a truck driver who can't really see his right front corner.

I don't hopscotch with buses, but often end up hopscotching with streetcars on queen west due to their higher acceleration capability (I can't manage to stay in front of them for long).

Argh.

Myrcurial

It amazes me how many threads continue to appear on this board about buses. I said it before that the problem stems from the fact that many bus lines time the drivers resulting in aggressive behavior. I would not play leap frog with the bus so if you can't manage 15 MPH, let the bus pass and wait 2 minutes.

I've had my experience with bus drivers and find them to be worse than trucks when it comes to taking chances with MY life. They fully expect you to hold a straight line while they pass within inches of your bike. Since these drivers have the ability to control these buses like cars, they don't car about the cyclists but the few seconds they save by cutting you off!

As for bike racks, you don't need them. The folding bike is the solution. (www.dahon.com)
You don't like 20' inch wheel folding bikes? Then continue to fight with the buses.

Perhaps you misread my comment - I ride faster on average than the bus during peak bus riding hours (when the bus stops at almost all stops). So the bus holds me up on the 4 mile stretch of my commute that follows the bus line. (I generally ride 21-23mph and average 17-18mph including the 2-3 stops at red lights. If following the bus I average less than 15mph for that 4mi stretch) I think the bus schedule is designed so the bus does not have to rush and they have plenty of time at stops. In fact they sometimes stop with no passengers (un)boarding, probably because they get ahead of schedule.

I do sometimes stop and wait and let the bus get well ahead of me. Sometimes I don' wait long enough. Sometimes I can pass the bus safety if there is a break in traffic.

The drivers on this line are very courteous. Probably because their schedule does not force them to rush. The bus culture around here is quite different than in other cities I've ridden the bus in - most passengers say "thank you" to the driver when leaving and the drivers say "bye" when you leave. Maybe also because I used to ride that line and the drivers recognise me ?

Al

In Denver he would be on the unemployment line before he finished his route. Take it to the top. You should let his managers know that one of their busses came within inches of causing a traffic fatality. It might even work better if you don't identify the driver, so they're encouraged to think up a more general policy for all drivers.

bkr

Things I'm not sure about:

A) Should I file a police report


Had an interesting chat with the desk officer at Peel Regional Police (the jurisdiction in question).

His best comment: "You would think that professional drivers would be good drivers, but you'd be wrong".

His other commentary:

"Yes, there is a new law that says when a bus is stopped and wants to merge with traffic, you are required to yield. This law also means that a bus can cross from a left lane into a right lane in an odd diagonal way if that is required for the route. Some drivers seem to feel that this law is a "get out of jail free" card for driving like they are the sole occupant of the road. A bus that is wanting to stop to take on passengers is required to treat the traffic action as if they were leaving the road way, ie: they may not cut a bike off exactly as a car driver may not cut a bike off. Would you be so kind as to stop into a community police station on your way home from work this afternoon and fill out an incident report."

I will stop in and make the report.

I will include my hollered swear words.

I will include the driver's conduct at the Long Branch turnaround.

I expect that I'll get a faster response from MT once I fax them my copy of the police report.

Myrcurial.

I've seen some real bonehead plays by our local transit drivers lately. I agree that the new "yield to bus" law is abused as much now by bus drivers as the drivers who failed to be courteous and let busses back onto the roadway before the law. The game of chicken has definitely begun in Niagara.

I've had a few drivers on my route who have rolled past me only to pull in front on my 20 feet down the road at a stop. It seems to be an "I'm bigger than you" mentality.

I'm also in a unique position that I have the ability to lay a Provincial Offence Notice on someone who drives like a fool. It's not the end of the business that I'm currently working in and I'll more than likely just pay a friendly visit to the depot while I'm on duty first to let them know what I saw but I'm not beyond issuing the ticket if their right offside.

You should all know that your local police (almost everywhere) have a computer database that's maintained to show the contact they've had with people and places in their area. Essentially it's a safety net that allows police to see places where they've encountered trouble and extract information about crime trends and hot spots. The systems also show things like driving complaints, tickets, etc. I can tell you from experience that someone who constantly seems to be the subject of complaints is a lot less likely to walk away with a warning.

The Peel copper has given you some pretty solid advice.

I agree that the new "yield to bus" law is abused as much now by bus drivers as the drivers who failed to be courteous and let busses back onto the roadway before the law. The game of chicken has definitely begun in Niagara.

I've had a few drivers on my route who have rolled past me only to pull in front on my 20 feet down the road at a stop. It seems to be an "I'm bigger than you" mentality.

I'm also in a unique position that I have the ability to lay a Provincial Offence Notice on someone who drives like a fool. It's not the end of the business that I'm currently working in and I'll more than likely just pay a friendly visit to the depot while I'm on duty first to let them know what I saw but I'm not beyond issuing the ticket if their right offside.
..snip...

The Peel copper has given you some pretty solid advice.

Thanks a lot for your response. I've had good relations with the police on pretty much all biking issues - when I was a teen, I did get a speeding ticket (rightly so, downhill, doing 58 in a 40) on my bike. I passed a couple of speed traps this morning where the officer happily yelled out my speed to me (32km/h). I am going to stop in and file the report. I have a feeling that most people don't make the point with transit and accept the lame line about the 10 day call back.

I'm just glad I'm still in one piece I guess.

And I'd love to see the look on the transit driver's face as the guy on the bike that he just blew past and cut off hands him a ticket. That must be a lovely feeling sometimes.

(Knowing full well that the job that is asked of police officers these days is not one I'd likely be able to do and they deserve a whole lot of praise for doing a crappy job under the wrong kind of pressures.)

I think the only mistake you made was bothering to say anything to the bus driver at all. I wouldn't have done so, not because I was afraid of escalating the situation, simply because I wouldn't consider the bus driver in that situation to be worthy of the effort.

As far as claiming the lane goes, yes, I do this when the situation requires it. Of course, plenty of people don't like it, but as I've said before, all I want from drivers is compliance. "Respect" comes way down the list.

Actually, I recall a few years ago I read in Now magazine ( local community paper) someone had a similar problem with a bus on Harbord St near Clinton, got in front of the bus and stopped. The bus driver called the cops and when both sides were heard the driver was charged with failure to yield.
It is exceptional, but actually I would be more worried about encountering the jerk on the same route repeatidly.

I've been through this once before. A bus driver downtown on Main St. actually grazed my jacket while I was on my bike. I caught up with him and gave him a good telling off. He was so shocked he didn't say a word and then as I was leaving he said something unintelligable but I didn't feel like messing around with him anymore. I tried to lodge a complaint but getting through the phone to the right person was impossible (I think they do this on purpose because I believe the administration doesn't want to mess with the driver's union or something like that!).

This was actually an isolated incident so I just dropped it. From now on I have been avoiding the downtown area and just getting on the sidewalk if I'm following a bus picking up passengers. It doesn't slow me down all that much.

I believe we should try to peacefully co-exist with busses as much as possible because we are really on the same "team" providing an alternative to cars clogging up the road and polluting the air!

This morning...a Mississauga Transit bus thunders up beside me - giving me less than the comfortable 18" off of my left elbow.

As he next passes me, he again gives me less than 18" clearance and honks his horn at me.

I...file a complaint on bus number 9826.

The woman on the phone doesn't seem interested in taking the complaint and beligerently states that I should receive a call back from the supervisor in 10 business days.

As I pass the bus pulled in at Long Branch the driver gives me the finger.


I respectfully suggest you move to Atlanta.

(It's also warmer here. :) )

Rights and all things considered, the bottom line is you have to look out for your own safety. While I and I believe most other cyclists have confronted drivers who have needlessly endangered our lives, I think in hindsight it is wiser to avoid confrontations- you never know when it might backfire; just catch somebody on a bad day and thats it...

I bike the 15km from Yonge/Sheppard to St.George/College on a bidaily basis [for summer school] and have never experienced such problems from the transit folks [on the contrary lots of impatient or just plain angry drivers out there though]. Granted there will always be people who drive rashly and shouldn't be allowed on the road, but that is a risk you are prepared to take the moment you latch your feet to the pedals.

I recently bought one of those handlebar mounted rear mirrors, and since then have learned to modulate my pace so even the most impetuous of drivers will not find me a hindrance in their path. If I see/hear them revving behind me, I'd simply coast and wave them by. Who knows maybe such a gesture of good will might one day save people from another tragedy, just like how a playful dog convinced an armed psychopath out of commiting mass murder a couple of weeks ago.

Lastly, if memory serves me correctly, lakeshore [at least the mississauga stretch] is a pretty old street with quite narrow lanes... personally I'd take dundas towards east until I get to kipling/islington/royal york, after which it's just a short ride south to the waterfront trails and that long stretch of beach! This is because dundas between kipling and dixie] has a combo lane exclusively for buses/car pools/bikes to use, so it is easier to bike on although the speeds may be faster than lakeshore.

Or you could try eglinton, buses rarely traverse the stretch from dixie eastwards to the 427. Not sure though, I've yet to try it.

P.s. how long does it take you to get to downtown? I'm just curious :p

Thanks a lot for your response. I've had good relations with the police on pretty much all biking issues - when I was a teen, I did get a speeding ticket (rightly so, downhill, doing 58 in a 40) on my bike.

Actually, my understanding is that bicycles are exempt from speeding tickets under the highway traffic act. but the cop could have given you a ticket for careless driving instead.

Actually, my understanding is that bicycles are exempt from speeding tickets under the highway traffic act. but the cop could have given you a ticket for careless driving instead.

I'm not sure -- this was almost 20 years ago, I've got a photocopy of the ticket somewhere in my piles of crap, I should find it and post it.

From my perspective, it was a good thing as it drove home the point that I'm a vehicle and I'd bloody well better act like one.

Actually, my understanding is that bicycles are exempt from speeding tickets under the highway traffic act. but the cop could have given you a ticket for careless driving instead.

Nooooo!!!!!!!!!!! It's actually one of my ambitions! I'd love to have a speeding ticket on a bike -- I'd pay the fine in cash on the spot, take the ticket to a picture framer, and hang it on my wall in all it's glory!

Lastly, if memory serves me correctly, lakeshore [at least the mississauga stretch] is a pretty old street with quite narrow lanes... personally I'd take dundas towards east until I get to kipling/islington/royal york, after which it's just a short ride south to the waterfront trails and that long stretch of beach! This is because dundas between kipling and dixie] has a combo lane exclusively for buses/car pools/bikes to use, so it is easier to bike on although the speeds may be faster than lakeshore.

Or you could try eglinton, buses rarely traverse the stretch from dixie eastwards to the 427. Not sure though, I've yet to try it.

P.s. how long does it take you to get to downtown? I'm just curious :p

Actually, that stretch of Lakeshore is actually quite wide - 2 traffic lanes in each direction plus a centre shared turning lane. Lakeshore doesn't narrow until west of Winston Churchill (technically in Oakville) - it's 4+ lanes from the west side of Mississauga all the way through to Etobicoke Creek (the border with Toronto).

Dundas is where I tend to get tracked and doored (see other posts) I know there aren't streetcars in Mississauga, but it's not a pleasant road to ride on at all.

I've tried Eglinton, the trouble is that it arches way north (have a look at a large scale map of both cities together - Eglinton is NOT straight) and would add something like 15 additional kilometres to my ride!

It takes me about 1:35 to get downtown - coming from the corner of Winston Churchill and Eglinton in Mississauga (Erin Mills Town Centre) to get to Yonge and Queen.

The best route so far:

Erin Centre Blvd East -> Mississauga Road South -> Lakeshore Blvd East (stay on road until Humber Park) -> South on Park Lawn -> Martin Goodman Trail -> Pedestrian crossover to Roncessvailes -> Queen Street East -- 37 km.

The more I do it, the faster I get. Starting out, I was getting about 17km/h averages and was riding a longer route (approx 45km) and it was taking almost 3 hours. At this point, the only way during rush hour to get into the city faster is GO Train. I'm faster than driving.

:)

Myrcurial

Nooooo!!!!!!!!!!! It's actually one of my ambitions! I'd love to have a speeding ticket on a bike -- I'd pay the fine in cash on the spot, take the ticket to a picture framer, and hang it on my wall in all it's glory!

That's what I think too!

I was laughing as I rode when the Peel Officer called out 32km/h -- I was so hoping to hear "52km/h, pull over buddy!" of course, this also involves some kind of a twisted roadie fantasy that ain't gonna happen until I lose a few more (dozen) lbs.

Part of my daily commute routine is to make sure that the high-water-mark reading on the computer is always above 50km/h.

I got pissed at the bus that honked at me today - there was a city water truck there to water the plants, and he had to merge into the wrong lane to go forward. I was as far to the right as I could be when we passed going opposite directions. He chose the moment we were sitting right next to each other to honk his horn.

Luckily my mind was more focused on the girl behind me riding a single speed - there was a good 2 feet between the bus and me, and I wasn't going to run a pedal into the curb (mm of clearance). WTF do I care that he has to move.

Hurt my ears a bit though - a bus horn is loud from a few feet away.

I've had a lot of really nice bus drivers too though - they've opened their windows and asked about my bike, or slow down and merge later so I can take the lane and let them in on the left.

I think the driver is at fault here - they should know they are driving a huge amount of steel down the road and act accordingly. On my way into work last night, I had to leapfrog the 18 bus 3 times before the lights let me lose him. He was bearly using his signals, too.

Yeah, I recall a similar incident with a bus here. The guy cut me off and when I got in front I made sure he was looking and flipped him. Then down the road as he was passing me closely again he blares his horn as if to startle me- now, I wonder how would he have felt if he did startle me and cause me to fall under his wheels ? It's sort of what I was getting at with my previous post- it is better to avoid confrontations when possible.

hm. just found out bikeforums has a commuter's forum in addition to the roadies, lol. anyway here's my 2 cents.

well, i live in toronto and commute too. the title of this thread is horrible. you should be complaining about mississauga, which is NOT toronto, not even by a stretch, and has completely different EVERYTHING. your incident didn't happen in toronto, it happened in missi, which is a poor man's toronto (if you ask me).

as for commuting in toronto, it's _generally_ a good experience, and _most_ bus drivers are great. now and then there's a bumblehead, but i'm sure that's true in every city. you seem to get doored/tracked/have bad experiences a lot. i'm beginning to think it's a matter of user error, not the drivers involved. having gone through lakeshore from toronto to burlington during rush hour mornings, in my opinion it's a wonderful ride and a nice commute, especially on sunny days. i'd say you need to be more careful and less agressive.

in addition, it helps to be wearing "commuter gear"; reflective straps on the ankles, panniers and/or messenger bags, reflective strap/blinky on the helmet, and a blinky on the seat/rack. the more careful you look, the more careful people will be when they see you. stop worrying about your avg speed and start worrying about being careful.

sd

I've been commuting in T.O. for I think almost 8 years now. It took awhile to get up the courage to ride in traffic mostly because of my own cautious behaviour. For the most part I find that drivers are pretty decent and are "used" to seeing bicycles on the roads with them. I always take a good protion of the lane to give myself plenty of room. I have run into the occasional a**, however usually ignore them and continue on my way. No bus drivers though (not yet). I've had a couple TTC drivers open their windows when I'm in a left turn lane as ask me about my bike which is pretty cool. They seem to be generally decent folk doing a job. I don't want to take anything away from your account though Myrcurial which sounds pretty crappy.

A bit off topic, I think a huge amount of how we are treated on the road is how we behave in traffic. "I act like a car, therefore I'm treated like one." Signal, stop at reds etc... All too often I see other "cyclists" blow red lights. Yesterday three in a row coasted by me as I waited in traffic for the light to turn green. The trio proceeded to coast through a couple more as I continued to follow stopping at lights. Funny thing is though, they weren't any faster then I was and I caught them all in a short distance once clear of the core area. Stupid people. Is it wrong to want them to get hit to teach them a lesson?

well, i live in toronto and commute too. the title of this thread is horrible. you should be complaining about mississauga, which is NOT toronto, not even by a stretch, and has completely different EVERYTHING. your incident didn't happen in toronto, it happened in missi, which is a poor man's toronto (if you ask me).



Ok - let me help you out here, the title says "Toronto Area" and from where I was when encountering Mississauga Transit, I could see Etobicoke Creek - ie: the border between mississauga and toronto, and the second encounter took place at Long Branch which is well inside the border of the City of Toronto. There are very VERY few differences between mississauga and toronto and honestly, slagging mississauga just makes you look foolish.




as for commuting in toronto, it's _generally_ a good experience, and _most_ bus drivers are great. now and then there's a bumblehead, but i'm sure that's true in every city. you seem to get doored/tracked/have bad experiences a lot. i'm beginning to think it's a matter of user error, not the drivers involved. having gone through lakeshore from toronto to burlington during rush hour mornings, in my opinion it's a wonderful ride and a nice commute, especially on sunny days. i'd say you need to be more careful and less agressive.



I'm not arguing that it's a good or bad experience, I was getting out some pent up frustration over the behaviour of theoretically professional drivers and some obvious lack in either training or mental orientation. Riding along the street and almost being cross-swiped by a bus is not NOT user error. The fact that I stayed on two wheels throughout the incident is an example of riding capability - oh, and sometimes, even the most experienced riders take a fall due to actions external to their own - since you're a roadie - ask Lance. I am careful - as a follow up to this message states, I also stop at lights and watch as kids, commuters and roadies either roll through or ram through red lights and stop signs at full speed.




in addition, it helps to be wearing "commuter gear"; reflective straps on the ankles, panniers and/or messenger bags, reflective strap/blinky on the helmet, and a blinky on the seat/rack. the more careful you look, the more careful people will be when they see you. stop worrying about your avg speed and start worrying about being careful.




My full commuter gear list includes 'real' bike clothes with more scotchlite than I care to count, full reflector set, blinkies both foreward (white) and rearward (multi-directional red) and scotchlite on my shoes. I don't worry about my average speed, just quoting it so that people can understand that I'm neither speeding like a reckless roadie on a training ride nor bumbling along at a speed that makes it impossible to maintain a straight line.

Thanks for sharing your opinions, but have a look at increasing the "constructive" in your criticism.

Myrcurial

Don't make me join in the slagging of missi :)

Actually, my understanding is that bicycles are exempt from speeding tickets under the highway traffic act. but the cop could have given you a ticket for careless driving instead.

Not in the State of Washington!

I have an electric horn; it's loud, but it just doesn't "register" with drivers as a warning device).


Madpogue,
Do you mean that the drivers don't connect the honking horn as a sound coming from your bike?

Ok - let me help you out here, the title says "Toronto Area" and from where I was when encountering Mississauga Transit, I could see Etobicoke Creek - ie: the border between mississauga and toronto, and the second encounter took place at Long Branch which is well inside the border of the City of Toronto. There are very VERY few differences between mississauga and toronto and honestly, slagging mississauga just makes you look foolish.


howdy from toronto. there is absolutely no way that missi is like toronto. missi is a huge suburb and reminds me of cities in america such as houston, where everything is a mall. much less suburb-like spots in toronto. missi is also more homogeneous in terms of race, in my experience (limited, but walk into any mall/street in toronto and you get a huge mix of people. not so in missi). there is nothing "foolish" about comparing missi and toronto. if you've ever looked for a house, real estate prices, crime, etc. or worked at one place or another, you'd know that. anyway what bothers me about your post is the title; it slags a wonderful city, and you don't even live in it, nor did your incident occur with people in the toronto transit system. my post was more to highlight the fact that there are mostly good drivers in T.O. then there are bad; and that the incident you had, which could happen anywhere, spoke more about missi than t.o, if anything at all.



I'm not arguing that it's a good or bad experience, I was getting out some pent up frustration over the behaviour of theoretically professional drivers and some obvious lack in either training or mental orientation. Riding along the street and almost being cross-swiped by a bus is not NOT user error.


that's good, but your venting cost my l'il city kudos. bicyclists, especially those from the states, actually love t.o. as for "user error" and being cross-swiped, i'd put out on argument for taking more of the lane.



My full commuter gear list includes 'real' bike clothes with more scotchlite than I care to count, full reflector set, blinkies both foreward (white) and rearward (multi-directional red) and scotchlite on my shoes. I don't worry about my average speed, just quoting it so that people can understand that I'm neither speeding like a reckless roadie on a training ride nor bumbling along at a speed that makes it impossible to maintain a straight line.
Thanks for sharing your opinions, but have a look at increasing the "constructive" in your criticism.


good to hear you got the gear. if i should be more constructive, you should be more careful in slagging cities you don't even live in.

I'd bother quoting if it would make a difference, but it won't. You've got blinders on that are intense. You think that Mississauga is just white bread suburbia, you've got another thing coming. Mississauga is MORE racially diverse than the city of Toronto. Your limited experience is making you sound foolish.

I've lived in Toronto. Not once, but several times. It wasn't any different then than it is now. I moved away the most recent time because of an armed 15 cop take down on my front lawn... in a NICE area of Toronto (Bathurst/Lawrence) and I thought I should help protect my kids from that kind of an environment.

Toronto is a relatively bike friendly city. But it is not the be all and end all of bike friendly towns. Your repeatedly incorrect point of view keeps making this obvious.

As for the incident... I was taking the lane. You should go back and read what happened - I was cross-swiped from a bus straddling the left and right lane marker who slid into a lay-by. Taking the lane has got nothing to do with it. And I didn't just get the gear, I've been riding in the same get up since March, shedding layers as it got hotter. And I was in full commuter gear the day of the incident.

Ok - cuz man, do I have bad memories of working at leslie and 7 :)

Leslie and 7 eh? West/East Beaver creek area I suppose?

I've lived in Toronto. Not once, but several times. It wasn't any different then than it is now. I moved away the most recent time because of an armed 15 cop take down on my front lawn... in a NICE area of Toronto (Bathurst/Lawrence) and I thought I should help protect my kids from that kind of an environment.


hm..i've always like it east of yonge st. more than west of yonge st. anyway, crime is worse in toronto, no doubt. especially in recent years (see, so there IS a difference ;). as for racial diversity, i think with chinatown, italian town, korean town, greek town, indian town, etc., toronto has more to offer on that kind of a basis...


Ok - cuz man, do I have bad memories of working at leslie and 7

hm.. u mean ridin' there or work'n there..? it's the northern chinatown and nearby to me.. goin north bayview/leslie is not a bad ride, but of course riding highway 7 is not so hot.

sd

This thread should be renamed, Why the rest of the free world couldn't care less about the subtle differences between 'Torana' and its surrounding burbs. :rolleyes:

This thread should be renamed, Why the rest of the free world couldn't care less about the subtle differences between 'Torana' and its surrounding burbs. :rolleyes:

omg omg omg omg omg

as for racial diversity, i think with chinatown, italian town, korean town, greek town, indian town, etc., toronto has more to offer on that kind of a basis...

Mississauga doesn't have delinated racial gettos the way toronto does -- it's much more of a random spray. I live in a townhouse complex, and I think that there are roughly the same number of ethnicities as there are mailboxes.




hm.. u mean ridin' there or work'n there..? it's the northern chinatown and nearby to me.. goin north bayview/leslie is not a bad ride, but of course riding highway 7 is not so hot.

sd

Just working there - I can't fathom a safe way to ride into that particular car-centric hell zone.

And yes, it was Commerce Valley East... ewwww.

I have an electric horn; it's loud, but it just doesn't "register" with drivers as a warning device).Madpogue,
Do you mean that the drivers don't connect the honking horn as a sound coming from your bike? Yeah, I guess that's what I mean. It doesn't sound like a car horn, so car drivers don't react to it as readily as, say, an Air Zound. What's chilling, of course, is that they probably ignore similar electronic warning sounds from, say, a reversing garbage truck or piece of construction equipment. WRT. sounds, my observation has been that car drivers mostly pay attention to car horn sounds, and everything else (sirens, electronic warning signals, screaming pedestrians, railroad crossing bells, etc.) just kinda fades into the background.

Completely off topic...

I've been considering going with a home built 12V system for my bike -- this would give me lights and a standard car horn.

There's outlines for this in another thread (the totally geek one).

Canadian information that may be useful:

- CrappityTire has the all in one charger/12V gell cell in a water resistant case at 10A for $39.99 (on sale)
- They also have car horns in a variety of sizes, shapes and tones for $20-$40
- I'm still on the lookout for cheap lamps that use the standard bulb, best I've found so far are 55W ea and come as a pair for $60. I want a 15W and a 30W bulb set. Also looking for an LED marker light from a transport truck (for the rear light)

The battery pack goes in a front pannier, with the tools/ulock taking up the weight in the opposite pannier.

Control box with horn signal and light controllers goes in the centre of the handlebars (zip-tied to the stem?) small switches for the lights (front x2 + rear) and a big honkin button (like a power saw kill switch) for the horn.

Since I park inside at home and work, I'd only have to worry about the set up during short stops... but zip ties and padlocks should make short work of keeping the panniers in place (excepting of course a jerk with a knife).

Thoughts?

This thread should be renamed, Why the rest of the free world couldn't care less about the subtle differences between 'Torana' and its surrounding burbs. :rolleyes:

You are now my hero.

Shaq-d,

By any chance are you a teenager?
Mississauga and Toronto have their unique pros and cons, but it's foolish to say one is better than the other. Racially homogeneous? sounds like a stereotype built on shaky assumptions. You sound like one of Them.

I find that biking in sauga is slightly less stressful, as traffic is less dense, along with many auxiliary routes in addition to the major thoroughfares. However since I study in Toronto, I must contend with whatever traffic arises. Well, regardless, you will always find bad apples wherever you go.

Ummmmm if I feel like slaggin Torana I will... who are u to tell people what they can't and can do. He gave his reasons as to where the incident happened so grow up and forget about it and get back on topic instead of causing a fuss which nobody else cares to hear about... so take it to PM's if it is such an issue for you or go start a new thread about where the border of the cities are.

Shaq-d,

By any chance are you a teenager?
Mississauga and Toronto have their unique pros and cons, but it's foolish to say one is better than the other. Racially homogeneous? sounds like a stereotype built on shaky assumptions. You sound like one of Them.

I find that biking in sauga is slightly less stressful, as traffic is less dense, along with many auxiliary routes in addition to the major thoroughfares. However since I study in Toronto, I must contend with whatever traffic arises. Well, regardless, you will always find bad apples wherever you go.

nope. read my post. like i said, once you look for houses, it becomes obvious toronto is not missi. i don't know any teens who house hunt, do u? as for stereotypes and shaky assumptions, i made a generalization, take it as you will.

sd

Ummmmm if I feel like slaggin Torana I will... who are u to tell people what they can't and can do. He gave his reasons as to where the incident happened so grow up and forget about it and get back on topic instead of causing a fuss which nobody else cares to hear about... so take it to PM's if it is such an issue for you or go start a new thread about where the border of the cities are.

are you reading your own message?

sd

Right...