Professional Cycling For the Fans - Lance Armstrong = Giant ******?

I'm fairly neutral over LA as a person. He is a terrific bike rider, and a force of good for some causes. But this is an interesting blog article that summarizes the whole LA/AC thing, plus insightful comments into the 'accusations' thrown by the Spanish press. The blogger, an LA supporter, is even-handed and objective in his analysis:

Lance Armstrong = Giant ******? (http://www.gunaxin.com/lance-armstrong-giant-******/25144)

(NSFW ads, apparently)

An article (blog?) written by a nobody who is a Lance hater.....no new news there

An article (blog?) written by a nobody who is a Lance hater.....no new news there

There are some points made that I haven't seen before. Plus, he's very even-handed.

Take for instance the water bottle incident, when LA intercepted a bottle that a Caisse rider was trying to pass to AC. The author noted that this could have been innocent on LA's part, although skipping the dinner later was 'classless'.

Well you see . . . opinions of LA are truly a mirror to your personal beliefs. Did he do this ? Did he do that? Do I care what he does to X and not to Y? On and on it goes.

The joke's on all of us. He's just another human being . . like you and me. Everyone's sh!! stinks.


We're all Right. . . and We're all Wrong.

Well you see . . . opinions of LA are truly a mirror to your personal beliefs. Did he do this ? Did he do that? Do I care what he does to X and not to Y? On and on it goes.

The joke's on all of us. He's just another human being . . like you and me. Everyone's sh!! stinks.


We're all Right. . . and We're all Wrong.

Mother Teresa... Pol Pot... just another human being... there's a little good and a little evil in all of us?

Is this really your belief?

Heck, I don't need no stinkin' article. I know the truth from BikeForums.net: there is no Lance, only Satan.

LOL - Mother Theresa, Pol Pot and Lance Armstrong. And here I thought Lance was just a dude who gets paid to pedal around on a bike!

Lance is the Shooter McGavin of cycling.

LA:
"I eat pieces of sh*t like you for breakfast!"

AC:
"You eat pieces of sh*t?"

An article (blog?) written by a nobody who is a Lance hater.....no new news there


That article was far from a negative article against Armstrong. I don't think you read much of it. There isn't so much opinion against Armstrong as there is objective reports on articles that were already published. Armstrong put his own foot in his mouth. He didn't need any help from the writer of that article.

That article was far from a negative article against Armstrong.

Guess you missed the title of the "Blog".

I am neither a fan boy nor an LA hater and I think it was a good article, well worth the read. In fact I really like LA and AC as athletes but I don't want to hang out with either of them. Like Terrell Owens, I like him on the field but he is not invited to my birthday parties.

My favorite line in this article is:

"The real question is why didn't Bruyneel have control over his team?"

Had Bruynell controlled his team he'd be rich and winning many more le Tours the next 5 years. As is he'll just be plenty rich.

Guess you missed the title of the "Blog".
The 'blogger' summarizes every bit of news on the whole feud/affair, and is pretty objective about the whole thing. I think blog or not, this is a good summation of all that's been going on with this LA/AC thing.

The author even says he roots for Lance. The title has a question mark, which softens it a bit. I do think its interesting to see a perspective on events that is different from the normal coverage we get in the United States.

I personally am a fan of Lance, and think he is a team guy. However I do see the point that in his wins, he asked everyone to sacrifice for him, and his result was the only thing that mattered. That same philosophy didn't extend to Contador this year. I don't remember him ever trying to get Floyd, Tyler, George, Levi, Roberto, or any of his domestiques on the podium.

The water bottle thing is possibly a bit overblown. I know Lance has said numerous times you have to watch your food and water supplies, to make sure people don't try to poison or plant drugs in your system. I would assume the water bottle incident was due to this reason.

Either way, I support Lance, but I think its good to see a different perspective on things sometimes.

There are some NSFW ads on that page. Out of courtesy, you might want to edit your first post so people are aware.

There are some NSFW ads on that page. Out of courtesy, you might want to edit your first post so people are aware.

Done.

My favorite line in this article is:

"The real question is why didn't Bruyneel have control over his team?"

Had Bruynell controlled his team he'd be rich and winning many more le Tours the next 5 years. As is he'll just be plenty rich.

What your continual pushing of this angle shows is that you are not aware of LA's history with Bruyneel. Going back to 1998 Bruyneel owes his position as DS to LA. While it's obvious that LA left the sport and Bruyneel stayed and was hired by Astana independent of LA, when LA was around, he was always Bruyneel's boss.

Do you know why outside consultants are usually brought in to solve management problems in many companies? It's not for their expertise. Most people inside the company know exactly who is the root cause of the problems; it's usually management. The problem for the consultants isn't fixing the problems. Their biggest issue is to create an exit strategy that skirts the issue of management's culpability, even though it is obvious, while collecting their fee for their services from the same management which was the cause of the problems in the first place.

And the answer to the question posed in the title of the article is a resounding:


YES

I dont think he tried to get any of his domestiques on the podium, but what team does. Most of them have no shot at getting on the podium anyway. He tried to let Floyd win a stage after doing all the work for him, but floyd couldnt so he ended up winning it in the sprint. At the end of the tour though he always split his earnings evengly throughout his riders rewarding for their hardwork, so I think he is a team guy.

Good and fair from my perspective. It restates some posts or ideas from online forums, almost verbatim. I would guess that the author has been reading and or contributing on here or cyclingnews.

Long live Sir Lance-a-lot to learn. Retweeted.

We hate lance thread recipe...


place obligatory nameless blog as proof here _________________ because if its on the interwebz it must be true

place obligatory previous love here _____________________ so as to justify why everyone who still likes him is wrong

place final straw here ______________________ so as to justify your new found/continued lance hatred.

Mix in any order you would like, add ******* or ******** or *** for flavor

Click mouse and wait anywhere from 15-25 minutes for appropriate responses.

enjoy, rinse, repeat

We hate lance thread recipe...


place obligatory nameless blog as proof here _________________ because if its on the interwebz it must be true

place obligatory previous love here _____________________ so as to justify why everyone who still likes him is wrong

place final straw here ______________________ so as to justify your new found/continued lance hatred.

Mix in any order you would like, add ******* or ******** or *** for flavor

Click mouse and wait anywhere from 15-25 minutes for appropriate responses.

enjoy, rinse, repeat

Excuse me, I said I'm fairly neutral about him.

And read the blog before posting, please.

You used the word blogger, even handed and objective in the same sentence. There isnt a blogger on the planet that is all 3 of those things ever.

That article was far from a negative article against Armstrong. I don't think you read much of it. There isn't so much opinion against Armstrong as there is objective reports on articles that were already published. Armstrong put his own foot in his mouth. He didn't need any help from the writer of that article.

objectivity makes lance look bad. check out the results of this poll.........

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=570225

the trend tells me that many more people view lance negatively since he made his "comeback". i know for me that's the case, as well as almost everyone i know.

the twitter war between AC and LA gets mentioned alot too and since only lance and his employees and buddies were tweeting that's gotta tell you something.

ed rader

You used the word blogger, even handed and objective in the same sentence. There isnt a blogger on the planet that is all 3 of those things ever.

okay here's a version not written by a blogger. how will you discredit it ?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/putting-contadors-yellow-in-context-2

ed rader

You used the word blogger, even handed and objective in the same sentence. There isnt a blogger on the planet that is all 3 of those things ever.

Never say never. If a blogger is even handed, then he most likely is objective.This one comes close - give him a shot!

Never say never. If a blogger is even handed, then he most likely is objective.This one comes close - give him a shot!

ok i read it. im sticking with my initial post.

objectivity makes lance look bad. check out the results of this poll.........

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=570225

the trend tells me that many more people view lance negatively since he made his "comeback". i know for me that's the case, as well as almost everyone i know.

the twitter war between AC and LA gets mentioned alot too and since only lance and his employees and buddies were tweeting that's gotta tell you something.

ed rader

Your going to go by a BF poll of a pool of about 45 people who participated, and say it's a trend? Sorry, but that's just ignorant.

This whole Lance / AC Rivalry is just a ploy to get people watching. It worked, many more people watched...and many more will watch next year ;P

Your going to go by a BF poll of a pool of about 45 people who participated, and say it's a trend? Sorry, but that's just ignorant.
This whole Lance / AC Rivalry is just a ploy to get people watching. It worked, many more people watched...and many more will watch next year ;P

would it be better to trust a BF poster with your history of convoluted and conflicting reasoning?

i think i'll trust the 45 because at least they anonymous and unlike you haven't been fully discredited.

sure, lance put more butts in the seats but only a lance leghanger would say that lance has improved his image by being a duplicitous, self-serving twitter boy :thumb:.

ed rader

I started that poll and while the results are interesting I think the only thing we can glean from is limited to BF members who hang out in the pro cycle forum who voted. I don;t think it represents the opinion of john q public.

I suspect the average lance fan did not pay much attention to any of the drama, maybe watched 10 minutes of the entire race. I think you could sum up the man on the street's opinion thusly:

lance is an american (we're number 1, you know?)
lance survived cancer
lance won 7 tours (they play that game in france, did you know that? france is not number 1, you know?)
lance came back and almost won an 8th!
lance's team mate cost lance what would have been his 8th win
lance is hated by the french, so he's cool

I was out on a ride the other night with some guys in their 20s-30s and one guy told me lance lost the TdF by a few 1/1000s of a single second. he was serious. I told him lance actually lost by several minutes and he said he thought CNN said 1/1000s of a second. that probably sums up the average american's opinion on LA. poll the avg american and I'd wager LA is a hero and they like him more than last year. assuming they know who he is.

BF poll, on the other hand, tells a different story but it's a different group of people and even then only a tiny sample.

I started that poll and while the results are interesting I think the only thing we can glean from is limited to BF members who hang out in the pro cycle forum who voted. I don;t think it represents the opinion of john q public.

I suspect the average lance fan did not pay much attention to any of the drama, maybe watched 10 minutes of the entire race. I think you could sum up the man on the street's opinion thusly:

lance is an american (we're number 1, you know?)
lance survived cancer
lance won 7 tours (they play that game in france, did you know that? france is not number 1, you know?)
lance came back and almost won an 8th!
lance's team mate cost lance what would have been his 8th win
lance is hated by the french, so he's cool

I was out on a ride the other night with some guys in their 20s-30s and one guy told me lance lost the TdF by a few 1/1000s of a single second. he was serious. I told him lance actually lost by several minutes and he said he thought CNN said 1/1000s of a second. that probably sums up the average american's opinion on LA. poll the avg american and I'd wager LA is a hero and they like him more than last year. assuming they know who he is.

BF poll, on the other hand, tells a different story but it's a different group of people and even then only a tiny sample.

I agree 100%.

I agree 100%.


count me in on that as well.

well said!

objectivity makes lance look bad. check out the results of this poll.........

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=570225

the trend tells me that many more people view lance negatively since he made his "comeback". i know for me that's the case, as well as almost everyone i know.

the twitter war between AC and LA gets mentioned alot too and since only lance and his employees and buddies were tweeting that's gotta tell you something.

ed rader


You're right. That poll is telling. There are also a rash of new cycling enthusiasts out there that only know Armstrong through the commercials and Letterman interviews. Most of these people populate the majority of Armstrong supporters. I never think that Armstrong can be liked any less, but time and time again he will always do something to remind people what a real ******* he is. He's got as many enemies as any person out there. He's a kid. Acts like a spoiled little brat. It's good to see him lose.

You're right. That poll is telling. There are also a rash of new cycling enthusiasts out there that only know Armstrong through the commercials and Letterman interviews. Most of these people populate the majority of Armstrong supporters. I never think that Armstrong can be liked any less, but time and time again he will always do something to remind people what a real ******* he is. He's got as many enemies as any person out there. He's a kid. Acts like a spoiled little brat. It's good to see him lose.

Just curious, is there a personal reason why you dislike LA so much, or is it mostly because of his misdeeds?

So, it seems unanimous, then- LA is a ******... right? well, whether you like him or not, LA has breathed life into cycling in the US once again, and makes it more legit for us to sit here and ***** each other out.
for what it's worth, LA is a ******.
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8832/originalimageb.png

These threads are hilarious. Even the lance haters will read everything they can about him, follow what he is doing and then rant about him. It's like the Howard Stern effect, even the people that hate him tune in to hear what he's up to next...it's all just gonna make lance more popular.

I was out on a ride the other night with some guys in their 20s-30s and one guy told me lance lost the TdF by a few 1/1000s of a single second. he was serious. I told him lance actually lost by several minutes and he said he thought CNN said 1/1000s of a second. .

Probably heard a report after the stage where Armstrong missed taking the jersey by a fraction of a second. That bit of information then gets distorted. But it does show how close average folks, even cyclists, pay attention to the TDF.

How does the OP come across these junk web sites?

How does the OP come across these junk web sites?

Googled LA news. This showed up.

Why is this junk, by the way? Is it misleading or bigoted or - ?

Well it's basically tabloid journalism.

Teams give their own guys water. If someone from another team is handing you water, throw it away.

Looking down the roll call of Tour de France's past, how many domestiques ever got on the podium? How many were helped there? Almost none. The team goes for glory in one of a few ways, but almost never all... sprinter for sprint finish wins, single-stage seekers, and GC. If you have a weak team and nobody particularly strong in the GC, you tend to hope you have a good sprinter or at least someone who might be able to contest a few stages. However, a strong GC contender has the whole team focused on protecting him and ensuring he has the best chance of winning. The domestiques job is to do this, not win. If in the course of these duties a domestique happens by time to be close to a podium spot, then good, but teams are almost never organized that way. This year was an exception to that rule with 4 legitimate shots at having the podium filled by one team. Leipheimers fall and more directly, AC's push against Kloden prevented a sweep opportunity.

As for LA... Like many champions, he is both proud and ruthless. This isn't a game with flowers and delicate dancing being done. These are hard-driving athletes living in agony for extended periods of time. You have to have a driving hunger, an almost insatiable lust for pain and anger to be the best. The reality is that people like Jens Voigt and Hincapie are the exception, not the rule. When the cream rises to the top, it often curdles on the way. They aren't saints. None of them are. They're civilized animals that have to mete out their energies and anger in a controlled manner.

would it be better to trust a BF poster with your history of convoluted and conflicting reasoning?

i think i'll trust the 45 because at least they anonymous and unlike you haven't been fully discredited.

sure, lance put more butts in the seats but only a lance leghanger would say that lance has improved his image by being a duplicitous, self-serving twitter boy :thumb:.

ed rader

It is ignorant to make general statements saying something is a "trend" based on a BF poll. It's not surprising coming from you, but seriously, take a Statistics class and you might learn something, as opposed to spewing your nonsense around BF.

Well it's basically tabloid journalism.

Not really. Its not reporting anything, so the blog isn't journalism at all. Simply recaps all the news/rumors/reports that's been going around, with a personal take on the whole issue.

You used the word blogger, even handed and objective in the same sentence. There isnt a blogger on the planet that is all 3 of those things ever.

Yes there is. PJ at Groklaw.

I suspect the average lance fan did not pay much attention to any of the drama, maybe watched 10 minutes of the entire race. I think you could sum up the man on the street's opinion thusly:

lance is an american (we're number 1, you know?)
lance survived cancer
lance won 7 tours (they play that game in france, did you know that? france is not number 1, you know?)
lance came back and almost won an 8th!
lance's team mate cost lance what would have been his 8th win
lance is hated by the french, so he's cool

I was out on a ride the other night with some guys in their 20s-30s and one guy told me lance lost the TdF by a few 1/1000s of a single second. he was serious. I told him lance actually lost by several minutes and he said he thought CNN said 1/1000s of a second. that probably sums up the average american's opinion on LA. poll the avg american and I'd wager LA is a hero and they like him more than last year. assuming they know who he is.



I started lurking on this site at the start of this year's TDF and was mainly reading the comments on Yahoo and Eurosport before that. Someone who was knowledgeable about cycling on one of those sites recommended BF. Anyway...You're spot on about what the "average American" was saying about Lance. Those threads, especially Yahoo, often degenerated into, "We must all love Lance because if it wasn't for America, they'd be speaking German in France." I was amazed at the number of people who really thought that Contador was French, which was the real reason he was a "whiner." Oh, and they played the Belgian national anthem for AC instead of the Danish one.

There was only one thing that you left out of your post...LA did the TDF for no pay and that any money he earned was going to his charity. One of my co-workers, who's a die-hard LA fan, had to tell me that every day of the TDF. That was also another theme of the posters on Yahoo: Lance gives lots of money to fight cancer while Contador doesn't. Therefore LA is a great humanitarian and AC is a selfish person (because AC's French, and we all know how the French are :lol:).

Another thing I heard was that any negative articles about LA were all from the "notoriously innaccurate/sensationalistic European press."

There were also those that believed that LA did nothing for 4 years and was able to come back and place 3rd in the TDF. One person that I talked to during the TDF didn't believe me when I said that LA was running marathons (as a marathon runner myself, I know that requires a high fitness level) and was probably cross-training on his bicycle (which I do). It wasn't like LA was sitting on the couch for 4 years eating Doritos and not even looking at a bike. But some people believe that.

As an older athlete myself (age 50), I can appreciate how LA performed in the TDF. But his tweets and constant undermining of his younger and better teammate took away any respect that I have for him as a person.

Geeze, you guys act like LA is a monster or something! A lot of haters on here. He's a proud former-champion that doesn't 'go quietly into the night' like I'm sure many of you wish. Not many do. Heck, Poulidor rode his last TdF when he was 40. Sure, he never won, but he kept banging away long after others were telling him he should stop. It's like Favre in the NFL: If you've got the skills and can compete and want to compete, why not? LA came third. Hey, you know? That's not so bad. Only two guys beat him and one by only a minute and a half. Of course he's going to be proud. How many of you guys have ever been good enough to get on a pro team, much less been to the TdF to compete, much less been on a podium? The guy is far from perfect. He has emotions, sue him! I guarantee if the Internet and Twitter were around when Merckx was around you would have heard far worse. It's accessability that hurts peoples images of a person. Sure, he's said a few yucky things on Twitter, at least he didn't abandon Kloden. AC may be a great champion (and probably will be for another 2 or 3 years), but everyone on here is so anti-LA and nobody mentions anything about AC. Go ahead, sit on your armchairs and chomp away on your bags of chips and bleat on rooftops at the top of your voice that yours is the voice of reason. Whatever.

Perhaps if the blogger hadn't offered his "objective comments" after every break I might have seen this as even handend. The pure nature of "unbiased observations" followed by his personal opinion makes the entire article biased. IMHO

Aren't observations and opinions the same thing? Here's the definition of "observation" from dictionary.com...notice the synonyms:

Main Entry:observationPart of Speech:nounDefinition:comment on something scrutinizedSynonyms:annotation, catch phrase, comeback (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/comeback), commentary (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/commentary), crack (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/crack)*, finding (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/finding), mention (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/mention), mouthful, note (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/note), obiter dictum, opinion (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/opinion), pronouncement, reflection (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/reflection), remark (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/remark), say so, saying (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/saying), thought (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/thought), utterance, wisecrack

Geeze, you guys act like LA is a monster or something! A lot of haters on here. He's a proud former-champion that doesn't 'go quietly into the night' like I'm sure many of you wish. Not many do. Heck, Poulidor rode his last TdF when he was 40. Sure, he never won, but he kept banging away long after others were telling him he should stop. It's like Favre in the NFL: If you've got the skills and can compete and want to compete, why not? LA came third. Hey, you know? That's not so bad. Only two guys beat him and one by only a minute and a half. Of course he's going to be proud. How many of you guys have ever been good enough to get on a pro team, much less been to the TdF to compete, much less been on a podium? The guy is far from perfect. He has emotions, sue him! I guarantee if the Internet and Twitter were around when Merckx was around you would have heard far worse. It's accessability that hurts peoples images of a person. Sure, he's said a few yucky things on Twitter, at least he didn't abandon Kloden. AC may be a great champion (and probably will be for another 2 or 3 years), but everyone on here is so anti-LA and nobody mentions anything about AC. Go ahead, sit on your armchairs and chomp away on your bags of chips and bleat on rooftops at the top of your voice that yours is the voice of reason. Whatever.

AC abandon Kloden? If we call it that then LAnce abandoned every rider oon every team when he was a TDF winner. Or should AC the favorite have dropped back to help pull Kloden to the top of a climb?

Merckx and all other top riders have had the change to make asses out of themselfs all along. They have the press in their face at the end of each stage. Twitter did not create the chance to be a fool. The closest I can think of to Merckx bad mouthing any rider, let alone a teammate was when his hour record was broken, and even that was only a true comment that it was technology, not a better rider that broke the record.

Cool down, people. Criticize the article, not the man.

That article basically says EXACTLY what I have been saying all along. Every point in the article I brought up in the last few weeks
I even got banned for it.
Maybe now people can read it since its coming from "an official" source.

That was also another theme of the posters on Yahoo: Lance gives lots of money to fight cancer while Contador doesn't. Therefore LA is a great humanitarian and AC is a selfish person (because AC's French, and we all know how the French are :lol:).


He's Spanish.