Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Novatron Dynamo Hub from Velo Orange

Any experience or opinions on this?

http://www.velo-orange.com/nodyhub.html

The cheap price caught my eye. I'm liking the idea of a dynamo front wheel for my LeMond. My Kona Dew has a Shimano (3N71?) wheel I built, but it's on a disc specific rim, so I can't use it on a conventional road bike with rim brakes. Aside from the Novatron's resistence, it might be kind of goofy to have a 36 spoke front wheel and 32h rear :)

I can get another Shimano hub for $77 from JensonUSA.

I've read all about SON hubs from Peter White - and honestly, if I ever get into serious Brevets I'll consider throwing down hundreds of dollars. For now I just like the idea of uninterrupted light on my "go fast" bike and I hate recharging batteries.

What's really attractive is that for ~$100 + spokes, I can build a reliable dynamo wheel.
Thoughts?

I have the Shimano 3N80 and it's actually lighter than the SON hubs.. and waaaay cheaper too. More bang for the buck if ya ask me.

From what I can tell (some?) people buy the SON hub just because it's "the best" thing out there, at least based on price.. I guess if you're throwing your retirement dough into a bike, why not get the SON... but for the rest of us working stiffs, we gotta save sometimes.

As for the dyno on VO, I would avoid it as it looks like it's got more drag, as it's made for shorter commutes & city rides. And the whole 36 spoke thing too of course..

Anyway I vote strongly for the 3n80.

I recommend dynamo hubs in general.

I have a Sanyo dynamo hub and E3 supernova lights on the bike I use for long-distance riding. It's nice to have a lot of light any time I want it; I am told it's pretty visible even in daylight. On Sunday's ride in under grey skies and hours of drenching rain, I was especially glad not to have batteries that could run down or short out.

I can't speculate on the respective drag of the VO dynamo, the Shimano, and other hubs. Remember the drag is always deceptive; what feels like friction when you turn the axle is a push followed by a pull, so where it's taking your energy one moment, its giving most of it back the next.

Remember, if you don't like 36 spokes, you can easily enough lace that hub up with 24 spokes. 28 or 32 are perfectly doable, just not as easy:they require fancier math and multiple spoke lengths.

Remember, if you don't like 36 spokes, you can easily enough lace that hub up with 24 spokes. 28 or 32 are perfectly doable, just not as easy:they require fancier math and multiple spoke lengths.

While I'm not an expert wheel builder, I've laced about 7 wheels. On one occasion I ordered my spokes too short and had to devise a 2x pattern for a front wheel. I have read that you don't want to goof around with alternative patterns for dynamos, as the rotational torque can cause "wind-up" if you don't cross properly. Similar concept as disc brake hubs. For that reason I'd hesitate to lace a "crows foot" style with a dynamo hub.

I second mattm's opinion on the 3N80: They're lighter and cheaper than the SON28 without any discernable difference in resistance.

I have a SON28 on my brevet bike, and I got it for 2 reasons; 1) the 3N80 wasn't available yet, 2) It's sooooo shiny! Yes, bling factor was an influence for this purchase.

A few of the fast randos with our club run the SON20R, which is smaller and lighter, but because it's designed for 20" wheels it won't reach full brightness on a 700c until you hit a higher speed. (OK, for the fast randos who climb like they have rockets in their chainstays. Not so much for heavy, slow Sasquatches like me.)

... I have read that you don't want to goof around with alternative patterns for dynamos, as the rotational torque can cause "wind-up" if you don't cross properly. Similar concept as disc brake hubs. For that reason I'd hesitate to lace a "crows foot" style with a dynamo hub.

Well, I can see how a "crows foot" might be a problem; but that's not what I'm talking about. Lacing a 24H rim to a 36H hub would be a perfectly conventional pattern, while 28H and 32H would be only very slightly off-- a spoke might be a mm longer or shorter than you'd expect, but the spokes would all cross the usual way and would meet the rim at the normal angle. Done properly, they'd have even tension and there would be no problem.

I have the Shimano 3N70. I built my headlight light in a hurry, so it has a voltage doubler but no switching. It's on all the time. I really don't notice the drag or the weight. I probably would try to find a deal on the 3N80. Even for commuting, I'm not sure the VO is that great of a deal.

A few of the fast randos with our club run the SON20R, which is smaller and lighter, but because it's designed for 20" wheels it won't reach full brightness on a 700c until you hit a higher speed.

Hi Clifton. I heard this wasn't as big a deal if you're using an LED light. Do you know if this is so? Just wondering as I'm considering the 20R. Thanks.

Hi Clifton. I heard this wasn't as big a deal if you're using an LED light. Do you know if this is so? Just wondering as I'm considering the 20R. Thanks.

I've heard that too - the SON20 with halogen doesn't come on until 10 km/h or so (15 maybe??), whereas with an LED it will come on at 5-ish km/h. Something like that.

Peter White's site would probably say exactly.

I've heard that too - the SON20 with halogen doesn't come on until 10 km/h or so (15 maybe??), whereas with an LED it will come on at 5-ish km/h. Something like that.

Peter White's site would probably say exactly.

It's faster than 5kmh with an LED light. My SON28 with an E3 "lights up" at about 2mph as I'm walking my bike out the front door, but it's a snazzy disco-strobe effect.
The SON28/LED combo isn't lit solid until I'm rolling around 4mph (6.4kph) and it's not fully bright. I'd venture a guess that the SON20R is lit solid around 6mph (9.7kph) and fully bright around 8mph (13kph).

Slowroller,
Most of the lights I've seen have been LED. A couple E3s, a handful of Edeluxes. I haven't seen anyone with the new IQ Cyo yet, but I'd like to check one of those out some time.

Slowroller,
Most of the lights I've seen have been LED. A couple E3s, a handful of Edeluxes. I haven't seen anyone with the new IQ Cyo yet, but I'd like to check one of those out some time.

Thanks, Clifton. I appreciate the info. Also, I'm finally down to the last replacement bulb for my B&M Lumotec halogen light. I promised myself I'd make it all the way through them before I bought an LED replacement. I have my eye on the Cyo. I love the housing of the Edelux, but I'm also trying to curb my tendency to indulge in pretty shiny things for my bikes. It's a tough battle.

From what I can tell (some?) people buy the SON hub just because it's "the best" thing out there, at least based on price.. I guess if you're throwing your retirement dough into a bike, why not get the SON... but for the rest of us working stiffs, we gotta save sometimes.



You'd make a larger impact on your retirement account by not riding at all... especially to the start of those far away events... and all those races. Think of all the hours you could be working a second job instead of foraging at the minimart, hanging with lots of middle aged guys on expensive bikes, and climbing mountains..

;)

Hi Clifton. I heard this wasn't as big a deal if you're using an LED light. Do you know if this is so? Just wondering as I'm considering the 20R. Thanks.

get the 20R. Have used my supernova e3 set with a 28 and a 20r, there is no reason not to get the 20r- even for a loaded touring bike.

...
Most of the lights I've seen have been LED. A couple E3s, a handful of Edeluxes. I haven't seen anyone with the new IQ Cyo yet, but I'd like to check one of those out some time.

I have both the Cyo models....they are great lights. The R unit is great for commuting. For a time I ran both with out a problem....

I've had the Lumotech Oval (Senseo?) which is halogen with an LED standlight. It's worked out pretty well for winter commuting. I considered briefly the E6, but this was 1/2 the cost, could be switched on/off/auto (light sensor activated for tunnels etc.) and has a wide beam at the bottom which was handy for slow speed technical situations.

Unfortunately navigating around potholes and train tracks while riding 12mph is a pretty likely scenario for winter commuting in Seattle. For the dynamo hub I'm asking about in this thread, I'd more likely match that up with a longer distance beam for higher speeds on open roads.

I've had the Lumotech Oval (Senseo?) which is halogen with an LED standlight. It's worked out pretty well for winter commuting. I considered briefly the E6, but this was 1/2 the cost, could be switched on/off/auto (light sensor activated for tunnels etc.) and has a wide beam at the bottom which was handy for slow speed technical situations.

Unfortunately navigating around potholes and train tracks while riding 12mph is a pretty likely scenario for winter commuting in Seattle. For the dynamo hub I'm asking about in this thread, I'd more likely match that up with a longer distance beam for higher speeds on open roads.

You could just buy a dynamo wheel already built from VO for $160:

http://www.velo-orange.com/shdyhubwh.html

I have one of these on my commute bike and the rolling resistance is the same as my SON28 on my brevet bike. There are some reports of a more-limited lifetime on the Shimano hubs, but as cheap as this is, it's well worth the risk that it dies a little sooner.

I think the only difference between the 3N72 and the 3N80 is that the former has disk brake mounts (which I am not using) while the latter does not. The disk brake mounts mean that the wheel is slightly dished, but this is not a big deal.

@thebulls

For the same $$$ I can lace a better wheel (using better components). Assuming I stuck with a 3N72 as VO does:

$75 - Shimano 3N72 dynamo hub
$55 - rim of my choice (Deep V, open pro, etc.) Many sub $60 rims of equal or lesser weight and as durable as a CR-18 in my opinion
$20 - 32 butted DT swiss spokes+nipples

I'm not saying the VO wheel is a bad value, but since I'm able to build my own, it's not as compelling.

@thebulls

For the same $$$ I can lace a better wheel (using better components). Assuming I stuck with a 3N72 as VO does:

$75 - Shimano 3N72 dynamo hub
$55 - rim of my choice (Deep V, open pro, etc.) Many sub $60 rims of equal or lesser weight and as durable as a CR-18 in my opinion
$20 - 32 butted DT swiss spokes+nipples

I'm not saying the VO wheel is a bad value, but since I'm able to build my own, it's not as compelling.

Plus at least an hour of your time to save $10 (plus whatever savings on shipping). Hey, go for it, then. I generally build all my own wheels, not because it is necessarily cost effective, but because when I've bought wheels from LBS or Performance/Nashbar, they haven't lasted very well because they always need significant retensioning/retruing. Buying from someone who knows what they're doing would be a good alternative, but bumps the price enough that I'd rather just build the wheel myself while watching a DVD with my family :-)

The core point is that based on all of the comments above, and on my experience, the 3N72 is probably a better choice than the Novatron. To me, the biggest cost of building a wheel is the time it takes me to do it. So saving $25 on a lower-quality dnamo hub that I might have to replace sooner is not worth the while.

The two SN72-based wheels (with Salsa Delgado cross-rims) that I bought last November were $107 apiece and cost less than the parts would have indiviually. I spent a couple of hours re-tensioning and re-truing the two wheels, but since then haven't touched them in about 3500 miles of daily commuting. Rock solid, and the hub has very low resistance when the lights are off.

@thebulls

I agree when wheel building skimping on parts isn't worth it in the long haul. If the 3N80 comes down in price ($100 or so) I'd probably try it out. Otherwise the 3N72 is pretty solid in my experience.

@thebulls

For the same $$$ I can lace a better wheel (using better components). Assuming I stuck with a 3N72 as VO does:

$75 - Shimano 3N72 dynamo hub
$55 - rim of my choice (Deep V, open pro, etc.) Many sub $60 rims of equal or lesser weight and as durable as a CR-18 in my opinion
$20 - 32 butted DT swiss spokes+nipples

I'm not saying the VO wheel is a bad value, but since I'm able to build my own, it's not as compelling.

Resurrecting...
Where can you get a 3N72 for $75? The best I've seen has been around $90 from the UK, with places here being about $100-$110.

Thanks, Clifton. I appreciate the info. Also, I'm finally down to the last replacement bulb for my B&M Lumotec halogen light. I promised myself I'd make it all the way through them before I bought an LED replacement. I have my eye on the Cyo. I love the housing of the Edelux, but I'm also trying to curb my tendency to indulge in pretty shiny things for my bikes. It's a tough battle.

Epic failure. I bought a Cyo for my 3N80, and then an Edelux and a SON20R for another bike.

Epic failure. I bought a Cyo for my 3N80, and then an Edelux and a SON20R for another bike.

:thumb:
How do you like the Cyo? I'm planning on getting the Cyo R for myself and the wife.

:thumb:
How do you like the Cyo? I'm planning on getting the Cyo R for myself and the wife.

I have a Cyo on one bike and an Edelux on another. The reflector/optics are the same for both, but the Edelux runs brighter; better cooling and maybe some circuitry differences?
The Cyo-R supposedly eliminates the dim spot near the front wheel by redirecting some of the light, and it incorporates a white reflector into the lens. In talking with the rando gang at the LBS, I was convinced that the additional close lighting was unnecessary at the speeds I ride, and there is more benefit to the longer, wider throw of the regular Cyo optics.
After riding with the Cyo and the Edelux for a few months, I know they were right. There are few conditions where I ever need more close-field lighting; and when I do I can turn on my helmet lamp and spotlight the area for a couple minutes.

:thumb:
How do you like the Cyo? I'm planning on getting the Cyo R for myself and the wife.

I have the non-R Cyo on my commuter and the dim spot doesn't affect me. Overall, I like the Cyo very much and think it's a great value. The only issue I have with it is the switch can be a little tricky to turn, particularly with full-fingered gloves on. Other than that, the output is great (it's a little blue-ish, which differs from the Edelux), and the pattern is wonderful (again, this is the non-R version).

Thanks for the info, good to know. I'd like to go with an Edelux based on the good things I've heard about it but the price is a bit prohibitive. The problem is that I can't find any of these lights to be able to compare in person, so I'll be deciding based on other's feedback and online reviews...and pictures.

Some reviews say the Cyo R puts more light closer to the bike (as intended) and there is no appreciable difference in the brightness or length of beam between it and the Cyo, even though the technical numbers say the Cyo is brighter (60 lux vs 40 lux I believe). I tend to agree based on the pictures on Peter White's site, but again, I've never seen them in person. Have you had a chance to see the Cyo R first hand? Where did you get your Cyo?

Thanks for the info, good to know. I'd like to go with an Edelux based on the good things I've heard about it but the price is a bit prohibitive. The problem is that I can't find any of these lights to be able to compare in person, so I'll be deciding based on other's feedback and online reviews...and pictures.

Some reviews say the Cyo R puts more light closer to the bike (as intended) and there is no appreciable difference in the brightness or length of beam between it and the Cyo, even though the technical numbers say the Cyo is brighter (60 lux vs 40 lux I believe). I tend to agree based on the pictures on Peter White's site, but again, I've never seen them in person. Have you had a chance to see the Cyo R first hand? Where did you get your Cyo?

Sorry, no first-hand experience with Cyo R. But if you're going faster than 8 miles an hour and spend more than an instant looking into the only-somewhat-dimmer space in front of you, you're going to run into trouble because you're not looking ahead far enough. There's plenty of spill light in the slightly-dimmer-area to provide enough illumination for slow climbing. It's hard to imagine any circumstance where I need to illuminate that slightly-dimmer area more than it gets illuminated with spill light. Maybe doing a very tight U-turn where your eyes haven't had the chance to pick up and memorize upcoming road irregularities? And anything that actually diminishes the light at a distance would be a very bad outcome for rando, where your main need is to see what's coming on a fast descent at night.

Bought Cyo from Peter White.

What happened to the Switchable Dynamo Hub from Velo Orange? It disappeared!

What happened to the Switchable Dynamo Hub from Velo Orange? It disappeared!

The game changed man.

in all seriousness I'm not sure. The product was a bit of a dud though imo. Here is a hub that weighs 750 grams, which is going to annoy exactly the kind of person who dislikes the miniscule drag you get from a dynamo with the lights turned off.

The company that made the VO-branded dynamo, Shutter Precision/ SP, is still around and you might be able to find one still. They also make some inexpensive lightweight dynamos that seem to be intended to go head to head with the SONdelux.

It was a great idea. I can't stand the idea of having ANY drag on the bike when I don't need it for power. I know I could go with a "bottle" style generator. This way I can keep my strong hubs intended for touring and heavy weight and at the same time provide a dynamo that can be completely turned off. I would probably want to have a braze on on the fork for just for the dynamo and that means finding someone that can do that type of work. John Cherry is the guy for the job in my book but I'm not sure if he does that kind of work anymore. I have also been thinking of having a (should I say it) kickstand brazed on to my LHT while I'm at it.

I don't really understand all the different electrical qualities that make a good dynamo (and I don't really want to spend the time to know). I just want it to work brilliantly and provide no drag, is that too much to ask? I wonder if they could make a "Trickle" dynamo that only trickle charges a battery. Then the battery can power the lights. The dynamo should provide little or no draw if its a trickle charger, right? I don't really know but it makes sense that if the regular ones have magnets so large to provide drag even when off that they could make them smaller and reduce the effiency of the dynamo to a trickle capability. I know I'm stretching on this one.

I would say that dynohubs effectively have no drag because I really can't tell any difference between having a dynohub on the bike and not having a dynohub on the bike. One thing I know for sure is that at night, it's far superior to a bottle dyno. I hated the idea of moving parts on the hub, probably there are a lot of people out there like me.

Last I checked, SP still had the clutch hub on their site. Probably better to go with the non-clutched model though.

If you're riding an LHT with kick stand and who know what else on there why would you be worried about the very little amount of drag that there may be on a dynohub without the lights on? It's not like you're racing. I can't even notice the drag on my schmidt hub when the lights aren't on. I have to admit that I'm a little weird about the drag when the lights are on. I have been known to switch off the hub light and use my LED backup on steep climbs. I'm slow enough climbing and I don't need that much light when I'm going that slow anyway. ;)

btw, those bottle hubs flat out suck! IMHO having used one years ago...

FWIW, I have a SON28 and a Shimano 3N80 and I can't tell the difference in terms of drag or power productuion. On long rides I use an E-Werk to power my GPS so there is load is on the generator pretty much all the time.

on my commuter, I have one of the cheap Shimano dynohubs that barely turns by hand. I can't tell it's on the bike while riding. I have the 3n80 and 3n72 as well, same there. And I've never been able to tell the difference between light and no light, although I have turned it off during the day out of some kind of superstition. I think the VO hub was only attractive to people who never used a dynohub before.

My Cyo is stuck permanently in the "on" position (turning the switch to "off" just disables the standlight, who knows why) so my lights are always on. it only bugs me when i'm trying to hang onto a fast paceline during the day and i feel like i really need every watt I can get. Could unplug the light I guess but it's usually just not that big a deal.

There is a stand in a local bicycle shop with a dyno hub as a display. Its on a front tire with the light hooked up. You can spin it with your hand to get the light to work. It really doesn't spin for very long due to the drag. Even when you unplug the light it stops fairly quick. I guess its a mental thing knowing how much extra you have to pedal over a length of time. I like to coast and I'm in no hurry to get anywhere so that is a big decision in not going with a dyno hub. Its like getting a crappy skateboard that has bad bearings. I skateboarded for years and rode some really bad boards. I would have thrown mine in the river if it had bad bearings.

If you get a Schmidt hub it uses less around 1 watt at 20mph turned off and 5watts when on at the same speed. Even when on it's just a fraction of a percent of your average output in watts.

If you get a Schmidt hub it uses less around 1 watt at 20mph turned off and 5watts when on at the same speed. Even when on it's just a fraction of a percent of your average output in watts.

I thought the schmidt and the 3n80 were both around 2W when off.... anyhooo...

http://bikecalculator.com/veloMetric.html

Riding 200km at 100W vs 102W you lose 4 minutes.
I really like my Cyo as it just turns on when required, no messing with the switch on the light or the hub. I could easily spend 4 minutes digging around in my bag for batteries over the course of a night.

There is a stand in a local bicycle shop with a dyno hub as a display. ...

If you buy one of those bottle generators, you'll be throwing yourself in the river, not the bike. I have one of the highest-quality bottle generators available, the B&M, and it causes noticeable drag on the tandem when it is switched on. I can't wait for the sun to come up so I can switch the generator off. Why do I put up with it? For the amount of night riding we are now doing on the tandem, it just isn't worth it to spend $500 on a wheel built around a tandem-rated, 48-spoke Schmidt hub. I also have a Spaninga bottle generator, and what a piece of crap that is.

For my solo bikes, I have a Schmidt hub that I use for long-distance randonneuring events (400Km and up), plus a couple of Shimano DH30's for shorter brevets or commuting. With any of these hubs, it is difficult to even tell when the lights are switched on, and many times I've forgotten to switch the light off at the end of a commute and then gotten half way to work before realizing the light is still on. Switched off, there is very little difference in drag between a good dynamo hub and a regular hub. Like Homeyba, I sometimes switch the light off on a steep climb and just use my helmet light, but I think it's mainly psychological. When you're going all out on a steep climb, and your heart feels like it is about to crack through your rib cage, it's tough to put up with something you know is creating a bit of drag if you can avoid it.

If you are riding an LHT, and you're not touring on it, then you are already putting up with inefficiencies that are much more significant than the tiny bit of drag from a good-quality dynamo hub.

I thought the schmidt and the 3n80 were both around 2W when off.... anyhooo...

I got those numbers off of Peter White's website. Either way, 1/2 watts is pretty negligable. ;)