Framebuilders - Lugged Mixte Frames: Who Still Makes Them?

I am wondering whether any frame builders are still able to make lugged mixte frames? By "mixte" I mean the classic style, with twin lateral stays extending continuously from the head tube to the rear dropouts. I have been told that lugs for mixtes are no longer available (I am guessing that means that Henry James no longer makes them?), but I know that some framebuilders are able to alter existing lugs to fit the mixte anatomy. So basically, I am wondering what my options are if I want a custom mixte, and if it must be lugged. Thanks in advance for any info.

I don't know much about the lug situation but you could get someone to fillet-braze it.

http://photobucket.com/meech151

I don't know much about the lug situation but you could get someone to fillet-braze it.

http://photobucket.com/meech151

I am specifically interested in lugged.

I am specifically interested in lugged.

Mixte lugs aren't made anymore and I'm sure HJ never made them. I know there are still a few sets out there.
It's also possible to custom make the lugs. You could use a standard set of lugs and would only have to fab the seat lug (easy) and the upper head lug (a bit more work) to match.

The only issue I can see is that after all that work...it would still be a mixte;)

Mixte lugs aren't made anymore and I'm sure HJ never made them. I know there are still a few sets out there.
It's also possible to custom make the lugs. You could use a standard set of lugs and would only have to fab the seat lug (easy) and the upper head lug (a bit more work) to match.
So basically, the builders who say they cannot do it, are either unable to make the seat & upper head lugs, or are unwilling to bother?


The only issue I can see is that after all that work...it would still be a mixte;)
Exactly! : )

You just aren't asking the right set of people.

historically, framebuilders have not made lugs. The builders doing it now are almost all fillet brazing a "lug" together, and then brazing the frame tubes into it. I built some mixtes where the mixte tubes were fillet brazed, and everything else was in a lug. I wonder if you are willing to pay what this effort would cost, I imagine the frame would be somewhere in the range of $2-3k U.S. A fillet brazed frame would generally be in the $1500 range.

I would look up Bohemian. I'm sure there are a lot of other builders that would do a great job as well.

Thanks unterhausen,

I have discussed this with several builders at this point, including Bohemian. For people like Bohemian and Peter Mooney, it is no problem, since they can easily alter lugs themselves or cast them from scratch. But as you pointed out, the price is quite high.

But there are builders -- respected, quality builders -- who quote in the mid $1000's for lugged diamond frames. Can it really be, that the alterations required for a mixte (keeping the lugged-ness as a constant) would double that cost?...

I'm no framebuilder, but even if you have the proper lugs, I'd think there is some extra work to attach the second seat of stays. The dropout region gets a bit busy, and there is a third attachment point on the seattube. So it's likely to cost more regardless.

Peter Weigle makes (very nice) mixtes. There was an article on Bicycle Quaterly about this one (http://www.flickr.com/photos/49353569@N00/sets/72157614277912885/) he made. MAP bicycles makes some too and there are surely others. Still they don't have the twin stays from the headtube you wish. In that BQ issue the different geos of mixte bikes is discussed too.

The angles for diamond frames are usually within 1° or 2°, so it's pretty easy to tweak lug angles of stock investment cast lugs - which are made by the thousands - to whatever angle is required for a specific frame. Mixte frames, like tandems, don't have consistent frame angles and aren't built in quantities big enough to justify tooling for production of investment cast lugs, so hand formed stamped lugs, which are very labor intensive, have to be used.

The tube angles of fillet brazed and TIG welded frames aren't constrained by the angles of available lugs, so it's much cheaper to make tandem and mixte frames using these tube joining methods.

You could try someone who is sitting on a big old stock of old lugs. Some of the French and British frame builders are very old established, and might have the appropriate lugs available.

Or how about the Rivendell Betty Fox?
http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/bicycle_models#product=50-685

Only the seat tube lug would have to be made, the others are common with other frames. Doesn't seem like that difficult a project.

Bilenky:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2005/cc046-ronlau1105.html

Is this lugged enough for you?

http://www.coastouttabrooklyn.com/gallery.php

http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2007/09/mixte-by-johnny.html

As to the cost, it depends what the builder is doing. If he has to make all the lugs, because he wants a harmonious look, then he is doing a lot of the work twice over. Hand made lugs do not always look the same as cast lugs, they will have thicker radius to the joints just as a fillet brazed bike does, if they are fillet brazed. And it depends whether the builder takes this on as a complete all out specialty, as if you asked him to do a showbike with all new stuff in it, or whether this kind of frame is the norm. When dealing with a pro, you would like to imagine they are always building frame 100 in a given style, but this could be frame zero, or 5.

The links people have posted are examples of wonderful lugged bicycles, but not what I am after.

What I mean by a "classic mixte," is specifically this:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/mixte-supercourse.jpg

Note the twin lateral stays extending continuously from the head tube to the rear dropouts.

Rivendell's, VO's, Bilenky's, and Weigle's bicycles are very nice, but do not have this anatomy.

But there are builders -- respected, quality builders -- who quote in the mid $1000's for lugged diamond frames. Can it really be, that the alterations required for a mixte (keeping the lugged-ness as a constant) would double that cost?...

The builders you referenced would be in the $2000's for a diamond frame too though.

The builders you referenced would be in the $2000's for a diamond frame too though.
Mooney and Bohemian, yes.

But then there are other builders with super reputations (Jitensha Studios and Circle A are just a couple of examples), whose lugged diamond frames start in the mid-$1000's.

http://www.merciancycles.com/frame_miss_mercia.asp

Found a UK builder who still does Mixtes. They start at 625 pounds. Mercian make really nice bikes.

Those are nice bikes. There were very few high end mixtes made back in the day. I always wonder where the stashes of lugs ended up as bike factories went under. Most of them probably went to the dump, I'm sure some people have lifetime supplies of some of them though.

http://www.merciancycles.com/frame_miss_mercia.asp

Found a UK builder who still does Mixtes. They start at 625 pounds. Mercian make really nice bikes.
They no longer produce the model pictured : (

"...Your Miss Mercian frame will be built to suit you, now available with single top tube only (as twin lateral stays shown are no longer manufactured)... "


There were very few high end mixtes made back in the day. I always wonder where the stashes of lugs ended up as bike factories went under. Most of them probably went to the dump, I'm sure some people have lifetime supplies of some of them though.
Yes, how frustrating! Well, maybe some day a stash will be discovered and unloaded onto the market. One can dream.

This was a topic on Frameforum 6-8 months ago, Veloria, you could join that forum and do a search, I believe the conclusion was that someone did indeed have a few sets. This maybe something you could obtain and take to a builder that you have chosen to work with. Good luck, and don't give up yet.

It was a post by Bruce Gordon (http://www.frameforum.org/forum3/index.php/topic,2379.0.html)
I'm thinking I saw on the framebuilders list that he had sold everything

Soma makes one, but sorry....not lugged.

http://renaissancebicycles.com/images/soma/buena_vista.jpg

The twin lateral is an inferior design, do you really want it? Rene Herse and Alex Singer abandoned this design for a reason. The bike flexes too much when you stand up to pedal from a stop or climbing a steep hill. The only place on a bike where the twin laterals would not use a conventional lug are where the stays attach to the top of the head tube ( okay the seat tube under the saddle is very easy to modify). Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember seeing any lugs that did this on my 1967 Bianchi Mixte. It appeared to be brazed to the head tube directly. The cost is going to be high because there is extra material and fabrication time. Also, a lot of frame builder's jigs would need some significant monkey wrenching to accomodate a twin lateral where the single tube bike would merely be PIA monkey clamping. This won't be cheap and I would be happy if I could find somebody competent and WILLING to do the job.

I would do it. I'd have to think a while about the lug though. I made a pair of mixtes when I was at Trek. They were fully lugged except at the join at the head lug. I don't remeber how I did that, there probably was a top tube lug involved somehow.

Most frame jigs wouldn't pose a problem for this.

I can build the frame It will require creating some custom lugs. See attached image. and please visit my website.
Tim

I can build the frame It will require creating some custom lugs. See attached image. and please visit my website.
Tim

Just checked out your frames.... very nice. Too bad us bike shop guys can't afford the good stuff.

They no longer produce the model pictured : (

"...Your Miss Mercian frame will be built to suit you, now available with single top tube only (as twin lateral stays shown are no longer manufactured)... "



Same thing goes for Rivendell. THey produced a really gorgeous "true" mixte a couple of year back. But the new ones have a solid, single top tube. Heck of a lot cheaper though, so that's not a bad thing!

http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/bicycle_models#product=50-704

Unterhausen and Lighthouse Cycle -- you make beautiful bikes, thank you for the links and images. I will definitely consider these!


The twin lateral is an inferior design, do you really want it? Rene Herse and Alex Singer abandoned this design for a reason. The bike flexes too much when you stand up to pedal from a stop or climbing a steep hill.
This is what I was told by a couple of manufacturers... while other frame builders have told me it was basically baloney, and that twin stays are no longer used because it is more labor intensive to make them. I started a thread asking about this here:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=559017&


The only place on a bike where the twin laterals would not use a conventional lug are where the stays attach to the top of the head tube ( okay the seat tube under the saddle is very easy to modify). Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember seeing any lugs that did this on my 1967 Bianchi Mixte.
1967 Bianchi Mixte! Oh my. Could you please post a photo of this bike?

The twin laterals-to-headtube lug is pretty distinctive on THIS MIXTE (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/sets/72157594411384711/). I've never seen these for sale by any of the framebuilding supply houses (Henry James, Nova, Ceeway, etc.).

The stiffness argument is interesting. I would have thought it might be stiffer laterally. Nothing like going oversize, or in this case using 2 tubes to get greater spread and a lateral truss effect.

Despite the mixed designation do a lot of guys ride these in an environmnet where they were popular in the first place?

Cool thread, even though my Moto Grand Touring mixte is a different design ( single tube that splits off into a double).

I do have the Raleigh also. Forget about that one since I don't ride it. It's in storage...it's traditional lugged, twin laterals.

The twin laterals-to-headtube lug is pretty distinctive on THIS MIXTE (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/sets/72157594411384711/). I've never seen these for sale by any of the framebuilding supply houses (Henry James, Nova, Ceeway, etc.).

http://www.mapbicycles.com/index.html

Tom Palermo in Baltimore has done at least one in the past

Well, it looks like V.O. decided to answer the op's question!
Here ya go Veloria: http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/
Not as nice as a custom would be, but still.

Well, it looks like V.O. decided to answer the op's question!
Here ya go Veloria: http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/
Not as nice as a custom would be, but still.

I was quite shocked to notice this too. Unbelievable (http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2009/08/mixte-prototypes.html). I am very curious to know how this was done and in what country the frame was produced. Several people have asked the latter question, but so far it hasn't been answered. I would go for that frame in a second if it is made in the US, but for $700 I doubt that's possible.

Really...who cares where it's made? It's exactly what you asked for. Do you think that we Americans are the only ones that know how to braze a frame? Fact is, there is plenty of cheap crap being made right here, and plenty of quality items being made overseas.

Even if this frame was made in Japan or Taiwan, I doubt it was churned out on an assembly line with a million others.

VO imports a lot of stuff from the east.

There was an entry on the Riv blog just recently where Grant said he was finally being pushed out of sourcing frames from Japan, and said:

"It's kind of sad all around. Japanese makers created the bike boom, or at least allowed it to happen at the level and success that it did, way back in the '70s. Falling dollars and rising Yen and the ramping up of Taiwan and now China have shut down almost all of Japan's production in the past fifteen years. We've been the Stalwart Ones, and I'm proud of that, even immensely proud of it, and to every possible extent we're still stalwart."

So nostalgia for Japanese production let alone US production.

Really...who cares where it's made? .

I guess you're being rhetorical, but it seems the OP cares and that's the point of this thread, isn't it?

Veloria, check your pm's.

Oh, it's not a political thing or a superiority/inferiority thing. I just enjoy buying local as much as possible, as it makes the item more meaningful to me and supports local artisans.

Also, when you design your work in one country and have it produced in another (especially one with a very different language and culture), there is a disjointedness between the two parts of the process that I am not entirely comfortable with. That is just my personal view and I don't expect others to share it, but I believe that in-house or local production is ideal for high-end, handbuilt projects like these.

It seems to me that Rivendell's prices are high enough they could have them made in the U.S.

Oh, it's not a political thing or a superiority/inferiority thing. I just enjoy buying local as much as possible, as it makes the item more meaningful to me and supports local artisans.


Yet, ironically, you don't seem to want to pay the price that local artisans are charging for the product you want produced.

Ya gotta make a choice somewhere.

I'm not sure that is true since he would apparently like to find someone with the original lugs rather than having then scratch built. That makes sense in cost and lack of "disjointedness" terms.

Yet, ironically, you don't seem to want to pay the price that local artisans are charging for the product you want produced.

Ya gotta make a choice somewhere.
Not sure what you mean, since I started the thread with the purpose of finding such artisans. Prior to starting the thread, I knew of only two who could do it. Their prices would be over $5K, which yes, is steeper than what I was hoping for. For diamond frames, there is a large middle ground between the lower priced frames made off-shore and the super expensive frames made from scratch by the most legendary builders. So I wanted to find out whether such middleground options exist for a mixte. I think that is reasonable.

Have a nice day.

It seems to me that Rivendell's prices are high enough they could have them made in the U.S.

They did that from the start, and continued as long as it was possible. And I bet a million dollar they make less on a frame than any of the large bicycle makers do. For periods, they have lost money on frame sales, only making some profit on sales of complete bikes.

Is it something special in size or geometry you're after Veloria? Or just wanting to have a beautiful hand made bike, precisely the way you want it?

My sister had a mixte when she was growing up, it's still here at our parents house, and I'm thinking of modifying it to suit her now. The headtube needs to be a bit taller. It's a 650B, which still are very common here in Sweden. You can by tires at the supermarket.

Here you go: http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-84224226242177_2068_26420089
And it's $700.00

Just wanted to follow up and say that I did find a local frame builder who was able to make a mixte frame with twin lateral stays. He happened to have a set of mixte lugs lying around, so that is what made it possible. If anyone is interested, you can see some details of the frame in its current state here (http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2009/10/caterpillar-to-butterfly.html).

Thanks once again for everyone's advice and to those who PM'ed me ideas.

Just wanted to follow up and say that I did find a local frame builder who was able to make a mixte frame with twin lateral stays. He happened to have a set of mixte lugs lying around, so that is what made it possible. If anyone is interested, you can see some details of the frame in its current state here (http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2009/10/caterpillar-to-butterfly.html).

Thanks once again for everyone's advice and to those who PM'ed me ideas.

Very nice! I can't wait to see it finished and painted!