Living Car Free - Cash for Clunkers

Flat wrong. That bailout money was not given to the auto companies. It was loaned to them. They will repay it. How do you think the American economy will survive if the biggest portion of it is allowed to suddenly collapse?

If you really believe that people are going to suddenly stop buying and driving cars, you must be smoking ILTB's pixie dust. ;) Environmentally, the best we can do is get people on more efficient ICE cars until the next generation of plug-in hybrids is available in 1 to 10 years.

The largest part of the economy is manufacturing cars?????
Not agriculture, finance, energy, military.....but making cars? Where'd you get that?

Thomas Paine would vehemently disagree, along with many other of the founders of the USA. Ever read "Common Sense"?

quote from wikipedia: "Society is produced by our wants, and government by wickedness; the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections, the latter negatively by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher. Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil."

I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said that it was good for a country to have a revolution every so often. I think it was he (it may have been Madison) who said a government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything away from you. Sometimes I think when people speak of founding father they are talking of Woodrow Wilson.

The largest part of the economy is manufacturing cars?????
Not agriculture, finance, energy, military.....but making cars? Where'd you get that?

Sorry. I meant to say the largest sector of manufacturing is cars. Since WW II, car sales (and other consumer durable goods) have been the mechanism that brings the economy out of a recession.

I stand by the rest of my diatribe against the nihilistic nonsense that has overtaken American political thought during the last couple decades. We are a great people, but we can and must resume working together to solve the immense challenges that face us. Democratic government is the system by which people best work together.

The other great systems of cooperative human effort--the markets and corporations--have only self-interest as a goal. Those who trust in corporations and the market place to solve shared societal problems like health care and the environment are just plain suckers.

These larger issues require people to look beyond their immediate individual goals. To solve big problems we need big efforts. What human institution other than government can plan and co-ordinate efforts that are for the benefit of society as a whole?

Flat wrong. That bailout money was not given to the auto companies. It was loaned to them. They will repay it. How do you think the American economy will survive if the biggest portion of it is allowed to suddenly collapse?

If you really believe that people are going to suddenly stop buying and driving cars, you must be smoking ILTB's pixie dust. ;) Environmentally, the best we can do is get people on more efficient ICE cars until the next generation of plug-in hybrids is available in 1 to 10 years.

I don’t believe people will stop driving cars. And by reading the support C4C has in a car free forum I don’t believe many here do either. But I do believe we got sold a bill of good on a loan deal. Tell me what happens when a Company files bankruptcy and they have outstanding loans? Also explain allowing foreign car companies to take part in the C4C plan where we the tax payer give Honda, Toyota and Nissan $4500 per car of our tax dollars?

Now for 50 billion how much could have gone to public transportation and how many car free people would support it? There is the point.

Since I have been visiting here there have been some common themes to many of the posts I have read.

1. We as a nation over consume. We need to correct that.
2. We as a nation live too much by credit. We need to improve that.
3. We as a nation are too dependent on cars. We need to change that.
4. We as a nation need to develop more public transportation.
5. And people in the car free forum believe as a nation we need to drive less and walk, bike or take the bus more.

The problem with these postings is the very first time we as a nation are tested many car free advocates back off on those very ideas. Here is the result of C4C.

1. We as a nation are telling people they aren’t consuming enough. Drive your old car to the dealer and consume a new one.
2. We as a nation approve of getting rid of your paid for old car and buying a new one on Credit.
3. We believe all taxpayers need to help the car dependant people by funding more cars.
4. We as a nation believe cars are more important than public transportation infrastructure.
5. Many in the car free forum believe we need to add more new cars so people won’t drive less and walk, bike or take the bus more.

People may not feel that way but that is the impression it leaves. My problem with C4C is we didn’t get to vote on it and we have no choice on how it gets paid for and who it gets paid to. The Japanese Government decided not to try and bail out their car companies but with C4C Toyota gets a good portion of the 2 Billion they were refused by their own country.

I realize it is too late and the only thing I as a person can do about it is refuse to play the game and not buy a new car. But it doesn’t mean I have to accept that cars were more important than learning to drive less.

My problem with C4C is we didn’t get to vote on it and we have no choice on how it gets paid for and who it gets paid to.

Well, not getting to vote on it isn't a problem. Since most voters seem to be car dependent, voters would probably vote to make the car free partially subsidize their new cars. We could've subsidized the car companies to make passenger rail cars. Some of the subway cars in DC were made in Italy.

I don’t believe people will stop driving cars. And by reading the support C4C has in a car free forum I don’t believe many here do either. But I do believe we got sold a bill of good on a loan deal. Tell me what happens when a Company files bankruptcy and they have outstanding loans? Also explain allowing foreign car companies to take part in the C4C plan where we the tax payer give Honda, Toyota and Nissan $4500 per car of our tax dollars?


A lot of the $4500 went to local American dealers, transporters, and their American employees. Most of the $4500 will be respent in the US, although a portion will go overseas in the form of corporate profits. A big chunk of foreign corporate profits are invested in the US, by the way.


Now for 50 billion how much could have gone to public transportation and how many car free people would support it? There is the point.
I don't know where you're gettin 50 billion. The cost of the C4C was only $3 billion. The topic of this thread is C4C, isn't it? $8 billion of stimulus money is going to high speed rail as we speak. Several billion went to other public transit interests and to non-motor infrastructure. I certainly agree that this was not enough.


Since I have been visiting here there have been some common themes to many of the posts I have read.

1. We as a nation over consume. We need to correct that.
2. We as a nation live too much by credit. We need to improve that.
3. We as a nation are too dependent on cars. We need to change that.
4. We as a nation need to develop more public transportation.
5. And people in the car free forum believe as a nation we need to drive less and walk, bike or take the bus more.

The problem with these postings is the very first time we as a nation are tested many car free advocates back off on those very ideas. Here is the result of C4C.

1. We as a nation are telling people they aren’t consuming enough. Drive your old car to the dealer and consume a new one.
2. We as a nation approve of getting rid of your paid for old car and buying a new one on Credit.
3. We believe all taxpayers need to help the car dependant people by funding more cars.
4. We as a nation believe cars are more important than public transportation infrastructure.
5. Many in the car free forum believe we need to add more new cars so people won’t drive less and walk, bike or take the bus more.



You have left me confused. Very few people in this forum have supported C4C or the auto bailout. I, and a few others, are the ones you seem to have a problem with, not any majority of people on this forum



People may not feel that way but that is the impression it leaves. My problem with C4C is we didn’t get to vote on it and we have no choice on how it gets paid for and who it gets paid to. The Japanese Government decided not to try and bail out their car companies but with C4C Toyota gets a good portion of the 2 Billion they were refused by their own country..
We didn't get to vote on it? I distinctly remember voting for President and Congress less than a year ago. As my representatives, they voted on these programs. The problem might not be that you didn't get to vote, but rather that the side you voted for lost. That's how it goes in a representative democracy. I felt like my vote was wasted for both Bush administrations. Now it's the neo-con's turn to feel out in the cold.

Also, Japan is not the best benchmark for handling a recession. Their failure to stimulate their own economy in the 1990s turned a mild recession into stagnation that has so far persisted for more than a decade. Thank goodness that Obama seems to have studied and learned from their errors.

A lot of the $4500 went to local American dealers, transporters, and their American employees. Most of the $4500 will be respent in the US, although a portion will go overseas in the form of corporate profits. A big chunk of foreign corporate profits are invested in the US, by the way.


I don't know where you're gettin 50 billion. The cost of the C4C was only $3 billion. The topic of this thread is C4C, isn't it? $8 billion of stimulus money is going to high speed rail as we speak. Several billion went to other public transit interests and to non-motor infrastructure. I certainly agree that this was not enough.



You have left me confused. Very few people in this forum have supported C4C or the auto bailout. I, and a few others, are the ones you seem to have a problem with, not any majority of people on this forum



We didn't get to vote on it? I distinctly remember voting for President and Congress less than a year ago. As my representatives, they voted on these programs. The problem might not be that you didn't get to vote, but rather that the side you voted for lost. That's how it goes in a representative democracy. I felt like my vote was wasted for both Bush administrations. Now it's the neo-con's turn to feel out in the cold.

Also, Japan is not the best benchmark for handling a recession. Their failure to stimulate their own economy in the 1990s turned a mild recession into stagnation that has so far persisted for more than a decade. Thank goodness that Obama seems to have studied and learned from their errors.


You and I both realize that GM and Chrysler got close to 50 Billion is stimulus money before they went bankrupt. We also know that once they went bankrupt those loans wouldn’t be paid back. When GM went back to the government and asked for more stimulus money they were told it would be like tossing good money after bad and it was decided to let GM and Chrysler go bankrupt. The government even helped formulate GM’s bankruptcy and that resulted in the Tax payer owning 60 percent of GM and Chrysler being auctioned off. Now with the C4C plan the auto industry gets another two to three billion dollars to sell the cars. Didn’t they say giving them more money in the first place was a bad idea? But even better this time Honda, Toyota and Nissan get some of the money. If it were truly a stimulus program why not just give the people $4500 to spend in small businesses and to pay off debt? While many of us were economizing just to keep our heads above water auto executives were flying to Washington in corporate jets to ask for more money. The tax payer was being asked to support a life style they themselves couldn’t afford to live.

As far as what side won the election I am no happier with the party that started the move away from capitalism with the first bail out, before Obama was elected, so I see no change in policy here. Different Boss same as the old boss. I realize I am talking about your industry and I am not attacking you personally. I am saying the Auto industry skimmed off the cream of American profits for so many years that it is hypocritical for them to turn to the same people they took money from for so many years for a handout.

The key issue here is where is the money coming from to pay for people to go out and get in debt? Just print it and it will be there? We as a nation are falling into trillions of dollars of debt as we type this debate. My grandchildren will be paying for the C4C program long after I am turned to dust. And the government solution is, have more people go into debt with C4C? Will you support Cash for homes and cash for appliances when it comes down the road next? We simply are at opposite ends of the pole on this issue.

As far as what side won the election I am no happier with the party that started the move away from capitalism with the first bail out, before Obama was elected, so I see no change in policy here. Different Boss same as the old boss. I realize I am talking about your industry and I am not attacking you personally. I am saying the Auto industry skimmed off the cream of American profits for so many years that it is hypocritical for them to turn to the same people they took money from for so many years for a handout.

The key issue here is where is the money coming from to pay for people to go out and get in debt? Just print it and it will be there? We as a nation are falling into trillions of dollars of debt as we type this debate. My grandchildren will be paying for the C4C program long after I am turned to dust. And the government solution is, have more people go into debt with C4C? Will you support Cash for homes and cash for appliances when it comes down the road next? We simply are at opposite ends of the pole on this issue.
Gee, I see the bailouts and stimulus as moves toward the worst parts of Capitalism not away from Capitalism- concentrate the wealth in the upper classes. As far as bikes go the new boss takes his whole family biking where the old boss did it as a replacement for jogging. The new boss smokes and doesn't wear a helmet.

Gee, I see the bailouts and stimulus as moves toward the worst parts of Capitalism not away from Capitalism- concentrate the wealth in the upper classes. As far as bikes go the new boss takes his whole family biking where the old boss did it as a replacement for jogging. The new boss smokes and doesn't wear a helmet.

Well I have complained enough. It is done and we can do nothing about it so even if it turns out to be a bad idea we have to live with it. But it does point out something we all knew deep down inside. What we say we believe in and what we do are two different things. We say we believe in responsible spending and savings accounts. We say gross over consumption is a bad thing but when it comes down to it we support heavy credit and buying what you don’t need before what you have wears out. I may have missed out on my Chance to get $4500 for a 92 Pontiac 4 banger. But if I am careful it will be the last ICE car I buy. I have 38000 miles on this vehicle and that is original miles. 38000 more miles should take me to 2026. If I can’t get an EV by then I simply won’t get a car. And they can’t lure me into a car payment even with your tax money. :lol: