Folding Bikes - Citizen vs. Downtube

Going into unchartered territory here. We just want a pair of bikes that will fit in our Mercedes C class sedan trunk. We have expensive road bikes and mountain bikes that we don't take with us on weekend trips and at other times because of the cumbersomeness and vandalism/theft risk. We've looked at Dahon, Bike Friday, Brompton, Citizen, and Downtube. I prefer the more inexpensive Citizen and Downtubes in case they are stolen/damaged/etc. Our intended use is typical downtown and crushed limestone paths/rails to trails type MUP's while on weekend getaway's and such.

From riders who have ridden one or more Citizen and/or Downtubes what are your thoughts? Armchair theorists and owners of more expensive bikes - grab some popcorn and shush! Before you guys chime in, yes, we can afford the more expensive Dahons/Bike Friday's/Bromptons, etc but choose not to go that route.

I have owned three Downtubes (sold one) and one Citizen Miami (when this model was full-suspension), which I sold after 6 months. The Downtubes, IMO, are much better bikes although I've never ridden Citizen's Gotham model. The Downtubes also cost more ($274 vs. $349). The CEO of Downtube has stated that they will be releasing a lower cost, entry-level model called the Nova very soon, so keep this in mind as well.

Just to through a curve ball in, there's someone else who licensed the Dahon folding mechanism recently... they're selling dead inexpensive folding bikes as well.

Who are they? I saw DLT (dahon licensed technology) on Amazon or something.

I'm leaning towards the Downtube because I've got a spare mountain bike full of Deore components on it that might make its way over to the folder...

Downtube Mini owner here. I like the bike a lot, but to my regret I cannot recommend Downtube bikes at this time. The Mini uses mostly standard parts, but it is difficult or impossible to obtain the proprietary parts when they need replacement. The Mini is not being sold now, but this was true even when it was being sold. Perhaps the situation is different with the more popular models such as the 9FS. I'd check with Yan at Downtube to verify spare parts availability before buying one.

If I had to do it over and I was cost constrained, I'd buy a Dahon instead. These bikes are widely available. They use more proprietary parts, but you can actually buy the parts if you need them! A Curve D3 is in the same ballpark price as the Downtube Mini.

I would not buy the Citizen - from what I've read it's not in the same league as the Downtube or Dahon bikes. There's cheap, and then there's CHEAP.

Another route you can go is Craigslist. There are plenty of quality barely-used folders out there.

Who are they? I saw DLT (dahon licensed technology) on Amazon or something.

I'm leaning towards the Downtube because I've got a spare mountain bike full of Deore components on it that might make its way over to the folder...

You know, now that I think about it, I think someone spam posted in a random thread in BF... I actually meant to bookmark it... I think it may have gotten bonked...

impossible to obtain the proprietary parts

What type of proprietary parts? The reason I was looking at them (the 20" wheeled-bikes) was because most parts are of the standard variety as I've seen many modifications of them using standard road/mountain bike parts. I'm looking at the front suspension 9 speed with external derailleur.

I have both a DT 9FS and a Citizen Miami. The DT is way better, better quality all around, the hinges are top notch, and its aluminum, so its lighter. The stem hinge on the Miami is pretty cheap, and doesn't seem secure. But i think the gotham has a different hinge, so im not sure.

Also the DT is more comfortable, the citizen cockpit seems more cramped.

The DT is definitely a better bike, well worth the extra money.

I'm ignoring your shush imperative to chime in purely on a ride issue. Small wheels ride a lot rougher on trails than bigger wheels do, so think about fatter tires, lower psi, and possibly (although I usually don't like it) some kind of suspension stem and/or seatpost.

...The Mini uses mostly standard parts, but it is difficult or impossible to obtain the proprietary parts when they need replacement...

just curious, which proprietary parts for the mini are u talking about and that can't obtain?

also i read that some dahon users are having trouble getting parts from dahon too.

Mini proprietary parts: Handlepost, folding latch mechanism. I'm tempted to also count the rims as proprietary - just try finding a replacement 16" (305) 28-hole, dual wall, alloy rim. (Googling for it doesn't count - you have to call the seller and confirm they actually have it, i.e. Velocity lists a 305 Aeroheat on their website but they don't actually have any).

I cannot obtain the 2009 handlepost (Yan swapped my defective 2009 Handlepost for a 2008 model). I have not tried to obtain a new latch - don't need it , yet. I cannot obtain a rim. (Rhm has generously offered to sell me one; I don't know his source - he once bought an entirely new bike just to harvest the rims!)

What type of proprietary parts? The reason I was looking at them (the 20" wheeled-bikes) was because most parts are of the standard variety as I've seen many modifications of them using standard road/mountain bike parts. I'm looking at the front suspension 9 speed with external derailleur.

dschawrz raises good points about his experience with the Mini, but you shouldn't have these problems if you stick with the 20" wheeled, derailleur bike. Apparently the Sturmey Archer hubs on the Downtubes are a very rare width so replacing them, even with a different manufacturer's hub, could be very difficult. As for the handlepost, the upper section is just a tube with a 1 & 1/8 " OD. For the lower section, you could always use a pre-2005 Dahon handlepost that takes a standard 1 & 1/8" headset and steering tube. Unfortunately, these are becoming very scarce - both Gaerland and Thor have been out of them for ages. Nevertheless, I think the Downtube model you are considering would be a good choice.

Another route you can go is Craigslist. There are plenty of quality barely-used folders out there.

If you decide to go the craigslist route, there is a great multi-city craigslist search engine called Search Tempest
www.searchtempest.com

Ebay is another source.

...I cannot obtain a rim. (Rhm has generously offered to sell me one; I don't know his source - he once bought an entirely new bike just to harvest the rims!)

for the rim...dahon curve uses 16" wheel also....so y can't u contact dahon for a spare rim from them?

...Apparently the Sturmey Archer hubs on the Downtubes are a very rare width so replacing them, even with a different manufacturer's hub, could be very difficult...

can u elaborate on this difficulty? i saw a post by one of the member, autoworker, who mini hub died on him and yan send him a replacement hub, the newer sturmey archer model with a w. and he had no problem replacing them and no more gear slippage anymore according to his post.

I have owned and sold a DT IX w/ front suspension. It was a great bike, especially after I upgraded the drivetrain from the low end derailleur that came OEM. The derailleur that came with the bike just would not shift properly and/or stay in adjustment.

I think it is a great idea to move the Deore components to the DT. That automatically makes it a much more rideable, dependable and enjoyable bike. My DT had front suspension, but if I bought another I would go with the model that does not have suspension. The suspension fork did not seem to make a noticeable difference in the ride quality, while adding a very noticeable amount of weight.

Hope this helps...Paul

can u elaborate on this difficulty? i saw a post by one of the member, autoworker, who mini hub died on him and yan send him a replacement hub, the newer sturmey archer model with a w. and he had no problem replacing them and no more gear slippage anymore according to his post.

I pulled the following quote directly from the Downtube bulletin board (btw - I am "Monti" in this post):


[I]Monti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> So if a Mini owner wanted to switch from the SA
> 8spd hub to something else, could they do it? If
> yes, what would be some of the other options?


Downtube CEO Yan's response was:


I looked around for retail options in the USA and did not find any. Surprisingly the 116mm SA hub we use, is not available in the USA via retail. It was developed for folders to have a thinner profile. SRAM's thinnest hub is 130mm according to their rep Shimano's thinnest is a 120mm 3sp.

FYI Sturmey Archer is coming out with a newer 8sp hub with a wider 340% gear range in the coming months.

Thanks,
Yan


Please keep in mind, my post about it being difficult to replace the SA hub that comes stock on Downtubes is based entirely on this exchange between myself and Downtube CEO Yan. For all I know, Downtube is now using a readily available version of the SA hub.

for the rim...dahon curve uses 16" wheel also....so y can't u contact dahon for a spare rim from them?

If only. There are two types of 16" rims; 349s and 305s. Brompton uses 349s from what I understand. So does Dahon. I haven't tried fitting a 349 on my mini, but my guess is that the larger wheel diameter would cause clearance problems with my fenders and v-brakes. Also then you have the hole count to contend with. The Sturmey Archer hub that ships with the Mini is a 28 spoke model. No idea how many spokes are on the Dahon Curve rear wheel.

If only. There are two types of 16" rims; 349s and 305s. Brompton uses 349s from what I understand. So does Dahon...

how about bike friday, citizen tokyo, and other 16" folder? surely, they aren't all 349s?

how about bike friday, citizen tokyo, and other 16" folder? surely, they aren't all 349s?
The Citizen Tokyo is a 305. As far as I can determine, it is using a common BMX type freewheel hub and steel rim. BMX owners usually put a single freewheel sprocket on this, but the Tokyo has a Shimano 14-28 6-speed.

The Citizen Tokyo is a 305. As far as I can determine, it is using a common BMX type freewheel hub and steel rim. BMX owners usually put a single freewheel sprocket on this, but the Tokyo has a Shimano 14-28 6-speed.

well how easy is to get a replacement rim from citizen? have u tried contacting citizen for getting spare part like the rim just in case u need in future?

Honestly, I never checked with Citizen - maybe I should have. I bought a replacement wheel (not just a rim) from aaabicycle's ebay store. It should arrive by Tuesday. The specs appear to match those of the original - if it isn't, I'm going to send it back.

My earlier comments on harsh rides was based on experience with 20" wheels. If you get a 16" wheel to ride on gravel it's even more important to consider soft tires and/or suspension enhancements.

Howdy everybody. New here. Great website. I considered both bikes but decided to buy a Citizen Tokyo because of the value it represented (fenders, rack, bell). I also enjoyed their website. I may have purchased the DT Mini had the suburban Philly shop been open on weekends. I've had my Tokyo for about a month and a half and have taken it to the mountains and to the beach a couple of times. It fits nicely in the back of my Vette. I've receive so many compliments on this bike. It weighs more than I would like, but it feels solid and folds in seconds. It's a good cost effective, entry level folder that would be easy to replace. I guess more than anything else, this bike renewed my interest in cycling so that's a good thing in itself. Hope this helps. Good luck with your purchase!

Have never tried a Downtube, so can't comment on those, but I just got a Citizen Gotham/MetroBike, and it is awesome! Very well made, and beautiful solid hinge. Pretty fast too, when you pedal fast!! I really am enjoying it, but have only had it a few days. Had to have my LBS tighten up the cranks, b/c got very loose, but now its fine! Everything else is pretty great! (One tire isn't perfectly true, a tiny bit off, but no rubbing against the brake). The bike rides very smooth, and the brakes are really solid. And it folds up really quick, and certainly small enough to get into a car. One note: the seat does hurt my butt a bit. I got the gel covering from Citizen, but will probably get either a gel seat, or one of those Schwinn seats w/o a center piece going b/wn your legs. Also, if necessary, might even get a stem on ebay for like $15 that has a shock built in. Have not tried the bike on trails, but not bad on bumps. I mean you feel them, but not bad! If a big bump is coming I take my butt off the seat! So far, I love this bike!! It does creak a bit when cranking hard w/ butt of seat, but not bad at all. Overall, the Citizen MetroBike/Gotham is an amazing bike!

One other option for you should be the full sized Dahon Espresso. On Ebay for $370 including shipping. Just thought I'd mention that as a low-cost folding option, with big wheels.

Have never tried a Downtube, so can't comment on those, but I just got a Citizen Gotham/MetroBike, and it is awesome! Very well made, and beautiful solid hinge. Pretty fast too, when you pedal fast!! I really am enjoying it, but have only had it a few days. Had to have my LBS tighten up the cranks, b/c got very loose, but now its fine! Everything else is pretty great! (One tire isn't perfectly true, a tiny bit off, but no rubbing against the brake). The bike rides very smooth, and the brakes are really solid. And it folds up really quick, and certainly small enough to get into a car. One note: the seat does hurt my butt a bit. I got the gel covering from Citizen, but will probably get either a gel seat, or one of those Schwinn seats w/o a center piece going b/wn your legs. Also, if necessary, might even get a stem on ebay for like $15 that has a shock built in. Have not tried the bike on trails, but not bad on bumps. I mean you feel them, but not bad! If a big bump is coming I take my butt off the seat! So far, I love this bike!! It does creak a bit when cranking hard w/ butt of seat, but not bad at all. Overall, the Citizen MetroBike/Gotham is an amazing bike!

The gel stuff is not going to help you, just making it worse. If you also need suspension get a sprung brooks saddle (like a flyer), solves both problems and looks great.

http://www.brookssaddles.com/en/Shop_Saddles.aspx

FFreddy, glad to hear you like your CB as much as I like mine. The only ownership complaints I've seen posted on other sites seemed to be related to not having the bike tuned after purchase.

Honestly, I never checked with Citizen - maybe I should have. I bought a replacement wheel (not just a rim) from aaabicycle's ebay store. It should arrive by Tuesday. The specs appear to match those of the original - if it isn't, I'm going to send it back.

y didn't u contact citizen to see if they sell a spare wheel? if u were able to get a spare wheel which is a 305 rim, then ppl who had a dt mini could also get that from that ebay's store.