Mountain Biking - Progression...digression...sidegression???

1998 Kona Mokomoko "Hmmm...let's try a rocker link with a vertical rear shock."
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=MokoMoko%2c+9064.jpg

1998 Jamis Dakar "my bike's the best...it's a MacStrut/swing link"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=Jamis+Dakar+Pro.jpg

1998 FSR "Mine's the best...it's a Horstlinkage design with a horizontal shock behind the main frame"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=GC+FSR+Extreme%2c+10-067.jpg

1999 Fisher Joshie "no man...single pivot is where it's at...who cares if it's a URT?"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=1999+Gary+Fisher+Joshua+F1.jpg

2000 Sugar "wait...maybe Jamis has it right...let's do the same but flip the rocker"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2000+Gary+Fisher+Sugar+1.jpg

2000 Kona Kikapu "Still works fine"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2000+Kona+King+Kikapu.jpg

2001 Trek Fuel "Hmmm...Kona seems to be doing well..."
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2001+Trek+Fuel+90+Disc.jpg

2004 Fisher Cake "Single pivot is obviously gonna be better than anything"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2004-Fisher-Cake-1.jpg

2004 Kona Dawg "Still workin' good"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2004-Kona-Dawg-Dee-Lux.jpg

2005 Trek Liquid "Now we're cookin!"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2005-Trek-Liquid-55.jpg

I'm getting to some sort of point.

2006 Fisher Fat Possum "single pivot is workin' for us...how 'bout renaming it?"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2006-Gary-Fisher-Fat-Possum-LX.jpg

2006 Coiler "Still workin' good"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2006-Kona-Coiler.jpg

2006 Trek Remedy "Still workin' good"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2006-Trek-Remedy-5.jpg

2007 Jamis XAM "Maybe Fisher was on to something with that flipped swing link...or was it Specialized? Heck let's just combine the two."
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2007-Jamis-Dakar-XAM-2.0.jpg

2007 Fisher ProCaliber "Hmmm...I dunno if this is a good idea'...but let's see what all the XC'ers think about a single pivot"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2007-Gary-Fisher-Procaliber.jpg

2008 Stumpy FSR "All those years of FSR linkage were wrong...let's abandon what we fed to the publick was the "only way to roll" and go with a rocker link with a vertical shock...its the only way"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2008-Specialized-Stumpjumper-comp-FSR-silv-blk.jpg

2009 Jamis Parker "Maybe we had a good thing goin"
http://tbfooksang.com/images/frontpage/2009_parker2.jpg

2009 Fisher Roscoe "Maybe Jamis had it right all along..."
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=FR_2009_Roscoe1_black.jpg

2009 Kona Coilair Supreme "Still workin"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=2K9_COILAIRSUPREME.jpg

2009 Trek Remedy "Still workin"
http://bikepedia.com/Images/image.aspx?w=400&h=400&filename=TK_2009_Remedy9_Blasted_polished.jpg

2010 Fisher HiFi "Let's try it again...but back to the XC arena"
https://images.dexdealer.com/news/2286/images/New_2010_07-09-09v3.gif

2010 Specialized Stumpy "Well what the freak...now we don't know what to do."
http://restlesschipotle.com/dallasmountainbiking/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/2010-stumpy-ias450.jpg

2010 Giant Glory "Still workin"
http://files.myopera.com/badmadcyclist/albums/119928/2010Glory.jpg

2010 Kona Cadabra "Still workin"
http://www.bikerumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/2010-kona-cadabra-mountainbike-538x600.jpg

2010 Stinky "Still workin"
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CAXB2T0FEzk/SlXGwDY3YnI/AAAAAAAACZw/JvAgBbqJ8uo/s400/pbpic3696620.jpg

Okay...my point...


Specialized had a pretty good thing going right? I know there are minor details that make a huge difference, therefore I'm just talking about the bare-bones basics. Specialized said that their way was the law...until they discovered the rocker link that Kona had been using for how long? Then that design became superior. Now...2010...they're moving back to some hippie retro crap that was designed by...Specialized...back in the long, long time ago.

Fisher has been all over the freakin' map, man. 2010 Fisher is the reason I started all this crap. They basically moved back to the same design as the original MacStrut Jamis Dakar. (which worked well)

Trek has been pretty spotty too...at least they saw a good thing when Kona started wiping their Dawgs butt with Fuels.

All these different designs...you'd think someone would come up with something that works. I know MTB's are pretty infant, but how long does it take to find "The Design"? The right one that works every time?

The only mfgr who seems to have not budged...are like the Cowboys of biking, man. Kona is either stubborn and relying on their silly names to sell bikes...or maybe the multi link design with a rocker link and vertical shock is where it's at.




Will my next bike be a Dawg? A Stinky? Coilair?





Maybe so.

Ed, The Maestro suspension on the glory and the magic link on the cadabra and coilair are fairly new designs. ;)

Jamis still not budging

2010 XCR
http://forums.mtbr.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=475119&stc=1&d=1249688869

Ed, The Maestro suspension on the glory and the magic link on the cadabra and coilair are fairly new designs. ;)

This, I realize and as I already said...the details can make a HUGE difference...yet the rocker link with vertical shock remains. The "magic link" sounds awefully magical though. I'd like to dissect one to really watch it tick.


2010 Giant Reign (Still workin)
http://www.505fights.com/images/Reign-X0.jpg

There will never be THE design. My favorite suspension design you haven't even posted yet. Lawwill suspension design.

http://www.roteccycles.com/images/bike/big.jpg

Yeah...I think the thread was a round-about way of showing the irony over the years.


Oh Lawwill was a freakin' genius though. And that one's absolutely beautiful.

Back in the day...straight six and four bangers woohooo.

And these
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JwtlzyWhfEI/SZjU72UixQI/AAAAAAAAAvo/ekbRYDDA8bA/s320/yeti.jpg

it also seems odd to me as well...
in motocross in 1981ish everyone jumped on the single shock Pro-Link/Uni-Trak/MonoShock (cant recall Suzuki's version) Yamaha even said their Gary Fisher horizontal style was so good they would never do a vertically mounted shock, they did though!!! etc etc band wagon...
we were promised different rise rate longer travel plushness etc etc etc.
I think Horst even had his hand in some early motocross suspensions with Can-Am Bombardier...
.
alas I also have a point...
.
few years back i grab a dirt bike magazine and low and behold they are talking about old dual shock suspension and how the only real gain with single shocks with linkage was longer travel... but the rising rates rebound rates and all was almost identical to the old set up...
.
although i havent been an avid mtber for very long i have follwed the bikes and their evolution...
.
love this thread... and it is intruiging with millions spent in development for MX/offroad motorcycles that are so closely related to mtbs... why hasn't a clear design come around that has lasted?

KONA seems to have as well as Specialized...
.
intruiging for sure...

It appears to me that Kona hadn't changed diddly until the Magic link, and Specialized didn't change anything until they went with the rocker link...tried it...didn't dig it...went back.

None of it matter, i guess. The Nomad is supposed to be the bike to end all bikes, right?

Go Kona!

lol
-_-

I think I shall name my child 'Kona' .........

LOL!

It wouldnt be that bad of a name, it'd be different lol.

You should name your child Cheeto....or Humuhumunukuhukuapua'a.

Tha magic link looks more like a marketing trick more than anything. The local Kona dealer was like..."check this out,a 4" xc bike can go to 6.7 inches if you need it".....Why?

There are worse names anyway. You could be naming your child Giant. Or Yeti. Or Evil.

Tha magic link looks more like a marketing trick more than anything. The local Kona dealer was like..."check this out,a 4" xc bike can go to 6.7 inches if you need it".....Why?

I'm soooo freakin' tempted to "Visa" that Dawg Dlx at Wheelworld.com for a future build before Kona decides to get lost in the hype. It's such a great deal...I just can't convince the wife though.

There are worse names anyway. You could be naming your child Giant. Or Yeti. Or Evil.

Or Stiffy, or Handjob, or ________(enter another Cove favorite...sick b'tards)

There are worse names anyway. You could be naming your child Giant. Or Yeti. Or Evil.

or Specialized.

or nomad

.....all my kids are Evil.

a few quick pics of what the motorcycle industry has done... looks very similar...

http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible_bikes.html a link to the actual page that is some pretty good tech stuff...

There will never be THE design. My favorite suspension design you haven't even posted yet. Lawwill suspension design.

http://www.roteccycles.com/images/bike/big.jpgAhhhhhh . . . Rotec. The funny thing is that Sully says that THIS is the way Mert alwaays envisioned the Lawwill link suspension being: with the concentric BB main pivot. But Yeti et. al. did not adopt it that way.

For the record, Sully (John Sullivan, founder of Rotec) is a home-grown WA guy and another ex-motohead. He was originally based in Monroe, WA in a house a mere stone's-throw from the rodeo arena where I used to race flat track motorcycles.

Ed, I think you hit the nail on the head in saying that MTB suspension design is still in its infancy. Yes, motocross and other off-road motorcycles are dialed now; but that was a LONNNNNNNNG time coming. Look at the differences between what everyone has today and my old Monoshock IT 175 from 1977. Bob Fox working on Maicos and then Yamaha's Monoshock revolutionized the sport; but the evolution went on another, what?, 30 yaers? With HUGE facory motor-racing budgets? It's gonna take time. Enjoy the new developments and give the next 'not-quite-there-yet' a go anyway.

I am so heartened after a week in Whistler. The Forums were starting to get me down with all the suspension/tech-haters. Seems most EVERYONE here rides suspension unless it's a cheapy old-rigid-to-ride-to-work bike. The world is back on its axis again. In places where it matters, suspension rules.

Ahhhhhh . . . Rotec. The funny thing is that Sully says that THIS is the way Mert alwaays envisioned the Lawwill link suspension being: with the concentric BB main pivot. But Yeti et. al. did not adopt it that way.

For the record, Sully (John Sullivan, founder of Rotec) is a home-grown WA guy and another ex-motohead. He was originally based in Monroe, WA in a house a mere stone's-throw from the rodeo arena where I used to race flat track motorcycles.

I'd look pretty good on that rotec.

You would, Dan; one with Tag wheels. There's a guy out this way that actually has one set up like that. One of THE sickest bikes I've ever seen.

But what am I saying? There's a white Blindside I know of that would be PERFECT for you ;).

I couldn't go with a rigid fork on my dmr, especially with how I ride.

Ahhhhhh . . .
I am so heartened after a week in Whistler. The Forums were starting to get me down with all the suspension/tech-haters. Seems most EVERYONE here rides suspension unless it's a cheapy old-rigid-to-ride-to-work bike. The world is back on its axis again. In places where it matters, suspension rules.

Where are the pics????????????

never will have them. I was having too much fun riding to take any. Oops.

Ed, please post more pictures. There are not enough in this thread.

Ed reached the end of the Internet looking for photos to post here. It's gonna take him a while to hike back to the ones he didn't use.

I think a picture of each suspension design in use would be helpful in evaluating the situation. Maybe some video, too.

phhhtt... who needs linkages

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/MRIO/Bicicletas/Retrobikes/MarinTeamTiFRS.jpg

My fingers are tired.

phhhtt... who needs linkages

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/MRIO/Bicicletas/Retrobikes/MarinTeamTiFRS.jpg

You must be 15 feet tall.

I am so heartened after a week in Whistler. The Forums were starting to get me down with all the suspension/tech-haters. Seems most EVERYONE here rides suspension unless it's a cheapy old-rigid-to-ride-to-work bike. The world is back on its axis again. In places where it matters, suspension rules.

I'm in your corner too, 5" is the least I ride now (did I just type that out loud?!). I don't see many hard tails on the nice trails around here and if you do usually it's a real smooth ex-BMXer. Now if your talking about peeps on hard tails "picking better lines" (trail braiding), we got them unfortunately. Someone who can ride the hard trails around here properly on a rigid deserves much repect, I can't, and my back wouldn't be happy either. Thanks for the whistler pics you selfish bast... (don't blame you tho).

Okay...my point...


Specialized had a pretty good thing going right? I know there are minor details that make a huge difference, therefore I'm just talking about the bare-bones basics. Specialized said that their way was the law...until they discovered the rocker link that Kona had been using for how long? Then that design became superior. Now...2010...they're moving back to some hippie retro crap that was designed by...Specialized...back in the long, long time ago.

Fisher has been all over the freakin' map, man. 2010 Fisher is the reason I started all this crap. They basically moved back to the same design as the original MacStrut Jamis Dakar. (which worked well)

Trek has been pretty spotty too...at least they saw a good thing when Kona started wiping their Dawgs butt with Fuels.

All these different designs...you'd think someone would come up with something that works. I know MTB's are pretty infant, but how long does it take to find "The Design"? The right one that works every time?

The only mfgr who seems to have not budged...are like the Cowboys of biking, man. Kona is either stubborn and relying on their silly names to sell bikes...or maybe the multi link design with a rocker link and vertical shock is where it's at.




Will my next bike be a Dawg? A Stinky? Coilair?





Maybe so.







But just for arguements sake, let's say we learned a few things along the way, about say.... chain growth or shrinkage during travel or braking. Let's assume just a little piece of the marketing hype is true and we do learn a little each year. Maybe smart shocks and forks allow us to revisit abandoned designs for another look. Was this design really played out like the gold strike at sutters mill? Or will ne technollogy show us just a little more color in the stream. Dayum that was heavy, I'm gonna take another toke dudes!

Well...I remember when single pivot was crap because of pedal bob. My Cannondale SuperV900 was the shizzle for my ignorant self...huge tubes...weird design...dually. Now the Heckler, Superlight, Prophet, Gemini, yada, yada...I wonder if you picked up one of those Super-V's and popped a Fox RP3 on there...what you'd end up with???

Waste of a good shock?

Ha Ha