View Full Version : Stage 3, should Mayo have been attacked while down?
SamDaBikinMan
07-10-04, 03:08 PM
OK, so this so called unwritten rule about not attacking a favourite for GC has now been dumped into the trash pile.
Over the years that followed the 2001 crash of JU it has been a topic of discussion about waiting for a GC or the yellow jersey. Yet when Mayo was unfortunately involved in a crash it became ATTACK! time. Every single fan and director sportif knew Mayo had the credentials to be a contender for GC this year. Yet at the first opportunity to take advantage of bad luck the commands are given to put the pedals to the metal and leave his @$$ in the ditch. In other words, "hey! Mayo is down! Fukc him! Keep on hammering!"
Is this little bit of Tour courtesy/protocol only selectively applied?
It seems to me that if LA is to fall again like last year then it it will be time to leave him in a crumpled pile and attack. Especially if your name is Iban Mayo.
Grampy™
07-10-04, 03:18 PM
As far as I can remember, the general rule of etiquette is that the peloton does not attack the yellow jersey on a crash. I think Lance extended this courtesy to Jan Ullrich a few years back, as was his prerogative as the current Yellow jersey holder, but it is not a hard fast rule.
Laggard
07-10-04, 03:25 PM
It's not just about attacking the yellow jersey. It's about attacking any rider, especially one who's got a legitimate podium possibility.
After Lance crashed on 15 last year imagine if Hamilton or Mayo's DS had radioed to them "go go!" Armstrong's down!" Can you imagine the **** that would have come down then?
Here's the outrage:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?id=letters/2004/jul09tourletters
After a careful review of the films...it has been determined that there were 2 riders up the road at the time Mayo crashed. They would have really liked it if the pack had slowed down and waited since that would have enhanced their chances of finishing 1-2 on the stage. Unfortunately, the pack was not cooperating and chose to chase them, which was doubly unfortunate for Mayo, Mercado, Rodgers, Zubeldia and a few others with high hopes of a high GC placing.
In addition, Mayo crashed before the cobbles. This is where the pace gets quite intense because all the riders are trying to get to the front to avoid crashes. USPS was only doing what any good pro team would do by going to the front and riding hard to try to get onto the cobbles first. Mayo was in fact near the front when the crash happened, but unfortunately, he was on the wrong side of the road. Scott Sunderland, who was on the right side of the road, said in his diary that the pace was ~70km/hr before the first cobbles, where Mayo crashed. He was right there on the opposite side of the road from Mayo. The pace also picked up like this again before the 2nd stretch of cobbles.
Keep in mind that at one point, Mayo's group had closed to within 1'30" of the lead group. After the pace picked up for the 2nd set of cobbles though, they were done.
There was really no breech of protocol here. Just a collision so to speak of different circumstances that combined to make Mayo's crash cataclysmic.
edited to add: Armstrong's crash in 2003 was caused by a fan. I think waiting was an impromptu decision that the riders around him took. When Ullrich rode off the road and armstrong waited, that was driver error, and Armstrong's decision to wait was in my mind completely arbitrary/voluntary, not a matter of protocol.
timmhaan
07-10-04, 03:38 PM
what about the fact that this was stage 3? fairly early in the tour.
Laggard
07-10-04, 04:21 PM
Seriously though, reverse the situation. Lance on the ground and Mayo attacking. Imagine the uproar.
Imagine the ROAR of the spectators. I would have liked to have been there when that happened.
brent_dube
07-10-04, 04:55 PM
I still don't see how "Mayo was attacked". The peloton drove the pace before he crashed, and kept that pace after he crashed. The field split, so of course they want to keep the pressure on, whether or not Mayo was in the rear group.
I agree with don d. on this one.
Laggard
07-10-04, 05:08 PM
It was reported that as soon as Mayo went down, Postal was told what happened and told to attack.
Don has some good points also. Phil and Paul essentially feel the same way.
It was reported that as soon as Mayo went down, Postal was told what happened and told to attack.
Don has some good points also. Phil and Paul essentially feel the same way.
And your new avatar is going to be...?
I think attack may be a relative term when you are flying towards cobbles at 40mph. its not like they had another choice, slow down and they would not be the first onto the cobbles, because no one else was going to wait.
And your new avatar is going to be...?
He's planning on stealing my awesome Molteni jersey avatar.
Mayo doesn't exactly have a whole lot of friends in the peloton, it seems. Especially the top guys in the Tour (Lance and Jan). Anyone remember stage 15 last year? Mayo tried to attack after the crash that he and Lance had. And on the very same stage, he and Zubeldia made Jan do all the pacemaking, and Mayo jumped around him for second place (and the time bonus, which would have helped Jan).
What goes around comes around.
Mayo doesn't exactly have a whole lot of friends in the peloton, it seems. Especially the top guys in the Tour (Lance and Jan). Anyone remember stage 15 last year? Mayo tried to attack after the crash that he and Lance had. And on the very same stage, he and Zubeldia made Jan do all the pacemaking, and Mayo jumped around him for second place (and the time bonus, which would have helped Jan).
What goes around comes around.
I really think this is somewhat overblown. Unless you're Robbie McEwen, these guys just don't keep track of stuff like that. Here is a photo of Lance telling Mayo what direction he should point his bike when they get to the cobbles: www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/jun04/dauphine/index.php?id=stage7/cycling-fra-dauphine-may-21
And here is a photo of Mayo asking Lance, " So Noval's going to put his hand on my bars like this and push me down on Stage 3 of the TDF?" www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/jun04/dauphine/index.php?id=stage7/cycling-fra-dauphine-may-20
Really though, I haven't seen anything more than fan speculation that Mayo is somehow unpopular in the peloton.
Murrays
07-10-04, 05:41 PM
Yet when Mayo was unfortunately involved in a crash it became ATTACK! time.
Will you guys get over this! MAYO WAS NOT ATTACKED!! I suggest you go back and look at the tape to see the race just before the crash. It resembled the last 5km of a flat stage with everyone lining up for a sprint.
The situation was no different than yesterday when a crash happened at the last kilometer mark and Lance went down. Do you hear anyone complaining about the race not stopping!?!? Granted, no one lost time, but do you honestly think anyone would stop racing if the crash had happened 500 meters earlier and the time lost counted on GC?
Everyone was going all out to be first to the cobbles, it just happened that USPS was on the front because they executed their game plan perfectly. After they got through the cobbles, Ecky and George inspired riding created a gap on at least two GC riders (Levi & Haras). I'm sure your strategy at that point would be to hold up and throw away a great opportunity!
Seriously though, reverse the situation. Lance on the ground and Mayo attacking. Imagine the uproar.
First, Lance wouldn't have been forced to ride alone to catch up for some distance as Mayo was.
Second, Lance has a much stronger team than Mayo and I have no doubt USPS would have bridged the gap. Did you notice that all but a couple EE riders gave up the chase in the end? That's the team I want around me when sh!t happens :lol:
Talk about 99ers, these comments make me think people here haven't watched more than a couple bike races :rolleyes:
-murray
I really think this is somewhat overblown. Unless you're Robbie McEwen, these guys just don't keep track of stuff like that. Here is a photo of Lance telling Mayo what direction he should point his bike when they get to the cobbles: www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/jun04/dauphine/index.php?id=stage7/cycling-fra-dauphine-may-21
And here is a photo of Mayo asking Lance, " So Noval's going to put his hand on my bars like this and push me down on Stage 3 of the TDF?" www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/jun04/dauphine/index.php?id=stage7/cycling-fra-dauphine-may-20
Really though, I haven't seen anything more than fan speculation that Mayo is somehow unpopular in the peloton.
I've seen those pictures before. Maybe I exaggerated a little bit, but I'm willing to bet that things aren't as friendly as they seem.
And it's too bad not everybody can be McEwen, because what's a good bike race without threats/actions of violence? :D
Laggard
07-10-04, 05:54 PM
And your new avatar is going to be...?
After seeing Devil's, I had avatar envy.
I'm feeling more secure now.
the peloton does not attack the yellow jersey on a crash.
Unfortunately I missed most of that stage. However, the yellow jersey (Hushovd) was caught up in the crash as well. While he isn't a GC contender, the combination of not waiting for him and a major contender shows that the wait/no attack after crash "rule" is more down to who has crashed and who has not than a morally steadfast rule. I am quite sure that Mayo won't hesitate to attack/not wait for Armstrong, Ullrich or Hamilton should any of them crash. Perhaps it is his own opportunistic style that has made others more opportunistic against him than they would against other riders. And yes, had he been on a more powerful team this probably wouldn't be much of an issue..
/Csson
It's not just about attacking the yellow jersey. It's about attacking any rider, especially one who's got a legitimate podium possibility.
After Lance crashed on 15 last year imagine if Hamilton or Mayo's DS had radioed to them "go go!" Armstrong's down!" Can you imagine the **** that would have come down then?
Here's the outrage:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?id=letters/2004/jul09tourletters
Yeah, there are some really good points, such as:
"I could hear Bruyneel yelling in their earpiece, "Mayo's behind the split! Go! Go! Go!" "
How could he hear this all the way from Utah. It may have happened, but he must have better television reception than I do.
"The Tour should be decided in the mountains and in the time trials"
It usually is decided in the moutains and time trials, but to say it should be is ridiculous. Why do you think the main GC contenders are always near the front? You never know when something can happen to split the peloton (crash, wind). This happened today with the wind and who was up there trying to widen the gap?
I think this whole "controversy" is a fan issue. Those who think USPS, T-Mobile and Phonak were correct are probably their fans and those who aren't their fans think they did the wrong thing.
holicow
07-10-04, 06:27 PM
Mayo lost time because his team was not strong enough to pull him back, right? Why is that everyone else's fault?
I'm beginning to think that riders should not be allowed to attack anyone who is having difficulty - even in the mountains.
It just isn't fair.
After seeing Devil's, I had avatar envy.
I'm feeling more secure now.
That Ariostea jersey is easily one of the most Italian looking jerseys I've ever seen. If you like that, you'll like this. I would buy it myself, but I've put a moratorium on clothing purchases until my Jelly Belly kit is less description and more function. ;)
Got to ebay and search on castelli in the stores:
You want Italian? Here's Italian..
http://www.world-of-cycling.com/accessory/jerseys/supermercatibrianzoli.jpg
SamDaBikinMan
07-11-04, 02:12 PM
Everyone was going all out to be first to the cobbles, it just happened that USPS was on the front because they executed their game plan perfectly. After they got through the cobbles, Ecky and George inspired riding created a gap on at least two GC riders (Levi & Haras). I'm sure your strategy at that point would be to hold up and throw away a great opportunity!
First, Lance wouldn't have been forced to ride alone to catch up for some distance as Mayo was.
Second, Lance has a much stronger team than Mayo and I have no doubt USPS would have bridged the gap. Did you notice that all but a couple EE riders gave up the chase in the end? That's the team I want around me when sh!t happens :lol:
Notwithstanding any assumptions these points are pretty much what it seems to boil down to.
It does seem odd that DS of postal was said/claimed to be giving orders to push harder based on the crash which is what made it questionable in my opinion. In any event it is still a fact that there is an unwritten courtesy that does seem to be extended among only a few in the peloton.
Now it would certainly not be wise to throw out an advantage if it is come by legitimately.
wheelman
07-11-04, 05:15 PM
Some more thoughts on the hypothetical "If Lance had fallen instead of Mayo...", which has gotten a lot of spanish press in recent days. The effort on the front would have far less enthusiastic with Postal storming from the rear, not necessarily because Lance is the "Grand Patron" of the race. Rather, because the folks up front would know they were working against a killer TT squad, and the work and organization to hold a gap would be enormous.
Cycling is a team sport, in the end, and Mayo places himself at GC risk in the early stages by hanging out with a bunch of climber/opportunists from a small region of spain. They're slow to help each other, and not particularly good at the either.
This begs the question - Mayo will get offers from top teams for the new season, and how will his allegiance to Euskatel remain after this year, knowing that he might have done much better with a stronger squad?
Murrays
07-11-04, 07:06 PM
Just to confirm my account of the race, here is Tyler's diary entry on the subject. Apparently, the peloton was "attacking" Mayo 30 kilometers before he crashed :p
Tuesday's stage from Waterloo to Wasquehal didn't make any liars out of those who predicted carnage by the conclusion of the day. I don't know if I've ever ridden in a peloton as agro as the one that headed into the first section of pave. The fight for position started 40 kilometers in advance of the cobblestones. Which meant we were going all out for nearly an hour before we reached the pave. I can't believe there weren't more crashes given what the fatigue rate must have been by the time the bunch was hurdling single file across the dusty section of cobbles.
At least five GC contenders were caught in or behind the major crash of the day that wound up complicating Iban Mayo's Tour de France ambitions. I really felt for him after the stage. With a year's worth of training and sacrifice invested in readying for this race, he lost nearly four minutes due to an obstacle. That's tough to take when you've conditioned yourself to compete in an event of endurance.
-murray
DEKKERFAN
07-12-04, 11:29 AM
The situation last year was completely different. In that situation Lance was attacking a small isolated group of top GC contenders who had already dropped the rest of the field. (forget about the one rider up the road ahead of them he was not a GC contender so he didn't count into the equation.) It was not like anyone there had their team with then so it was basically "mano a mano" at that point. When he "fell", due to a fan's interference, Lance was ahead of the rest of them and pulling away. It was only fair to wait because he was beating them anyway. This year Mayo was not doing that at the time so why should you hold up the whole 180 riders or so just because maybe later on he might have a chance at the GC?
The whole "unwritten rule" concept seems to be changing in the last few years as fans see riders showing sportsmanship and then interpreting that as an unwritten rule.
In my years of following bicycle racing, there are a few unwritten rules that have seemed constant.
1. You do not attack in a feed zone. This has of course been broken, but infrequently.
2. You do not attack when your opponent is answering the call of nature. This has of course been broken with humorous side effects but infrequently.
There are no doubt many others, but these are the two that are most pronounced.
It is considered unsportsmanlike to attack when the leader of a GT gets a flat in a relatively neutral area, like a flat stage. Say Lance got a flat on stage 7 and T-Mobile, Euskaltel, Phonak, and Liberty went to the front and proceeded to start a 4 team TTT to the finish to put time into Lance. Insert any of the main contenders for GC or Green for Lance. That would create a tsunami of controversy that would have journalists(and Bikeforums.net :) ) in a feeding frenzy for weeks. But if all the main contenders are halfway up the Ventoux in a pack of 10 and the yellow jersey gets a flat, what do you think they are going to do, sit up? Not likely. They will keep racing although they may not attack. What if in the same situation the yellow jersey clips a wheel and crashes? Most likely, the riders will keep racing, although they may not attack.
When Jan rode off the road a few years ago, Lance literally sat up and looked around like he was out touring and you could almost have written a caption to that photo that said, "Well I better wait and see if my buddies ok." He did not have to do that and I don't think his actions should be interpreted as adherence to some unwritten rule.
When Lance crashed last year, there was more uncertainty among the riders around him as to what to do, but they eventually decided to just keep racing and not attack. I think that was because they were sticking to an unspoken/unwritten code of honor.
Mayo got caught in a bad spot. The peloton couldn't slow down even if USPS had wanted to. And once Euskaltel and Credit Agricole didn't close the gap in a timely fashion, the bunch just started racing again. Too bad.
I read somewhere the leaders were using the rules of Paris-Roubaix. You don't wait if they crash. This was because of the cobbles.
2Rodies
07-12-04, 01:33 PM
Don D said it all:
Mayo got caught in a bad spot. The peloton couldn't slow down even if USPS had wanted to. And once Euskaltel and Credit Agricole didn't close the gap in a timely fashion, the bunch just started racing again. Too bad.
It was unfortunate for Mayo that A: the peleton was at full throttle when he went down and B: His team sucks on the flats. Had that been USPS/Phonak/T-Mobile or even CSC they would have caught back up to the main bunch. There was never a situation that more plainly shows that cycling is a team sport!
SamDaBikinMan
07-12-04, 07:10 PM
This begs the question - Mayo will get offers from top teams for the new season, and how will his allegiance to Euskatel remain after this year, knowing that he might have done much better with a stronger squad?
Yep! I have pretty much decided that I think Mayo's team is the place where he lost and not an actual attack. He does in fact need to move into a squad that can offer assistance in this sort of situation.
Thanks for all the thoughts. I am much more content that there is no unwritten rule that was broken and this situation did not result in an unethical action on the part of USPS.
Laggard, you should counter the Molteni with Faema no?
or you could go La Vie Claire for that French Flair. . .
Marty
Smoothie104
07-12-04, 11:21 PM
I just watched the coverage of stage 3 again. Mayo was within 30 seconds of rejoining the group when they hit the cobbles. George, Eki and Lance were the 1st 3 riders at the very front, riding so hard that they actually caused a split, taking 25 or so riders with them. In the splintering chase group behind this ATTACK, you can see 3 or 4 other Posties clearly blocking, and trying to disrupt the chase. This was not riding hard to be first to the cobbles, and then ride tempo. It was an all out Blitz on the front, with guys trying to block behind.
I really think this is somewhat overblown. Unless you're Robbie McEwen, these guys just don't keep track of stuff like that.
But those guys do have a memory. You're probably right inasfar that purely personal animosity will not be allowed to dominate in important race situations. Pro cycling is full of 'scores to settle' etc. Just think about Anquetil vs. Poulidor, Lance vs. Cofidis, etc.
AnniesDad
07-13-04, 07:00 AM
But those guys do have a memory. You're probably right inasfar that purely personal animosity will not be allowed to dominate in important race situations. Pro cycling is full of 'scores to settle' etc. Just think about Anquetil vs. Poulidor, Lance vs. Cofidis, etc.
Can you guys point me to a link describing the Lance v. Cofidis story? I would like to read more about that.
Thanks
Can you guys point me to a link describing the Lance v. Cofidis story? I would like to read more about that.
If I am not mistaken, Lance's 'autobiography' It's not about the bike has his pick on the subject in some detail.
Well, Phil and Paul just commented about this. They said that the talk around the peloton is that it was Tyler who was at the front instigating the attack. And certainly there were others to take him up on that.
Also, they gave Laurent Fignon's take on the situation as well. He said that at that point the racing had already begun so you couldn't slow it down. He basically said it is much ado about nothing.
So, I guess the forum will start attacking Tyler for this, now. Right?
So, I guess the forum will start attacking Tyler for this, now. Right?Given Tyler's propensity for not staying upright on his bike, I'm not surprised he wanted to stay out of trouble on the pavé.
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