Road Cycling - Seven vs Serotta vs Independent Fabrications vs ?

Hey guys,
It's been awhile since I've been around here... haven't had a bike to ride!

Had a Steelman Cycles Signature that I road about 4 miles and bent the frame (silly me). Pretty nice ride but I need to replace it and he's being a dick so I'm going to go with someone else. I test rode a lot of stuff in the LBS and decided steel definately is real. So what do you guys like as far as steel frames ~$1500? (frame only). I was very impressed with the way Seven has their website laid out and their order form. It looks like they've done their homework. I wasn't as impressed by the look of Serotta's website, but I hear that they do a better job at fit? I'm buying a frame and not a website so I'm definately open to anything. I test rode a IF crown jewel and it was nice but I hear they just do a few measurments and set you up with that. The finish and decals were absolutely beautiful though. I'm riding it though, not looking at it.

So I guess it's sort of down to Serotta and Seven.... or something else if you guys have suggestions. What do you like about what I've mentioned (or whatever else you have in mind) and what don't you like?

I'm near Knoxville, TN and there is a Seven dealer here but no Serotta. I'd have to drive 3+ hours to find one. There's a Waterford place about the same distance but I don't know anything about them.

Actually when it really comes down to it... after you've chosen a material (steel), how do you choose which company to go with? Since theoretically they should all fit, since they're custom.

Thanks guys!
Dave

Keep us informed. I, too, was impressed with the Seven website. I like the look of the Elium steel/CF frame. I just got a Lemond Zurich steel/CF and it is fantastic. I think my next bike, probably not for another 5 years at least, will be a Seven, unless something comes along to change my mind.

i am not familiar with knoxville bike shops but nashville has some great ones....if you are still in johnson city it would be quite a haul

check out gran fondo www.granfondocycles.com . they import tomassini...which is what i ride...awesome italian steel and they will fit you right. they also are a serrota dealer

there is also allante in brentwood...they carry waterford and seven...a friend of mine got a waterford from them and is very happy

I'm actually in Kingston... just west of Knoxville. Need to update my profile, thanks for pointing that out.

I'm pretty close to being in the middle of Nashville and Asheville. I'm just not sure what company to go with. It's one thing to be able to ride two different bikes and choose one, but I'm buying a bike before I ride it.

Seven and Serotta are very nice bikes - you can't go wrong with either.

There is a local builder here in Portland that is doing some amazing things with steel and getting a lot of attention - http://www.vanillabicycles.com/

Good luck with whatever you choose.

55/Rad

I'd heard about them before. Now I'm even more confused!

Oh man though, look at those lugs. That gives me a chub.

http://www.vanillabicycles.com/bikes/road/bike_a/lrg/2.jpg

Waterford makes great bikes. They offer the whole Imron color catalog, and a lot of options within a model. A guy I know had them chrome the cast lugs option. It's a stunning bike. I've been talking with my LBS about getting one. If I can persuade myself I can't live without a 3rd bike I just might :D

You probably don't need a custom built frame, so do yourself a favor and have your lbs show you a Torelli catalog. Torelli imports really neat Italian-built lugged steel frames in excellent selections of sizes, they do great paint-jobs, and they provide exceptional service. You won't find a better riding frame and the built-up bike will really turn heads. Regardless, I hope you're able to ride more than four miles before you bend the next frame.

Just curiously, how did you bend the frame?

I ran into a car dead on. If I hadn't hit it at a 90 degree angle I'd have glanced off and it would have been fine.

Sacha (vanilla) makes a beautiful bike, but I think his waiting time is over a year now. My friend owns the tourer with the red bags thats on his website. Dave Kirk ( a former Serotta employee ) makes a wonderful steel bike, it can be either lugged or filet brazed and is painted by Joe Bell . Daves waiting time is somewhere around 8 weeks and frame and custom steel fork run about $1850 . Dave Kirk Frameworks (http://www.kirkframeworks.com)
You can't go wrong with a serotta CIII , it's one heck of a bargain for a custom steel frame and if you can fit on a stock size serotta has added a new option of purchasing a bike without ordering .Serotta's Buy one now page (http://www.serotta.com/pages/stock.html)

oh man vanilla frames are beautiful......i want one to hang on my wall :)

i was once told that serotta had custom-drawn tubing for each custom tube. so your custom bike has each tube drawn to fit it, rather than just having a stock of butted tubes chopped to fit your size. small advantage, but if you're paying that much for a custom bike, it might be an advantage for serotta over seven.

Have you looked at Merlin's titanium bikes?
Here's the cielo:

And here's the cyrene, it's one of the only titanium frames I know that has no stickers on it, everything is laser engraved. Its one of the bikes I've been lusting over. No carbon, no plastic, no paint, no stickers, just pure titanium.

you know... I really love my Soulcraft. absolutely bomb-proof and light as a feather.

slvoid: I wanted to keep it in the $1500 range. Those Merlin's look nice but I haven't even bothered to shop for them

Check out Co-Motion in Eugene, OR. They make great tandems and SINGLES!

What about a Rivendell?

I would also recommend talking to Dave Kirk. There are quite a few top level steel builders but, Kirk should be one of the better ones when it comes to delivery. I would guess just a few weeks at most. And, I really doubt that you can do better in regards to quality. He builds a superb bicycle.

Another option is Roland Del Santa. A really good steel bike for a really good price.

And yes, those Vanillas are stunningly beautiful. Just like the Richard Sachs.

If you are going steel then go for the small one-man types shops (as above) as they will give you more value and true art for less money. These are set apart from the norm.

I've recently gone down this road, and I decided to go with Indy Fab only because I don't see that many. But, I ruled out all the frame makers that didn't have a dealer near me. I wanted the piece of mind just in case anything went wrong I could take it to the LBS and get it taken care of. It's a tough choice. For me I had the option of Serrotta, Waterford, IF and Seven. They're all really good. I got the full measurement, fit bike and for the IF. I would highly recommend getting a full fitting if your dealer doesn't offer it I'd pay the $$.

By the way, if you like lugs, Waterford is a great choice. They also use silver for welding (brazing) which takes less heat to work, which means less frame distortion during manufacturing.

I was in the market for a steel frame a while back. The Seven Steel Axiom is sweet I would get it with the Seven carbon fork also. I had to go a cheaper route and went with the all steel Lemond Zurich and I love it. At first I thought I was giving up alot but for the price I got a complete bike for what I was going to pay for the Seven frame and fork. So I spent another few hundred dollars on my Lemond and pimped it out just the way I want it. I've had carbon and Aluminum bikes and this Zurich is hands down my favorite to ride and race on.

With any bike you buy the fit is the thing. The advice of going with a "local" or relatively local dealer that works with either Serotta or Seven is good advice.

I am only 5' 2", and the vertical limitation made stock bikes not very comfortable.

Personally, I love my custom Seven.

Here's another name to consider, Landshark. Great frames and the paintjob that you decide on, no matter how wild is included as a no-cost item. At least that is what I last heard. Have seen a couple of them and they are stunners.

Dave

I have seen several and agree the paint jobs are generally unique and stunning. Since every one is different, some are more likeable than others. Much like art. But hey, with the Landshark we ARE talking about art.

I intend on having one of these sooner or later.

there's always thylacine cycles out of australia. and the owner is on here...

*points at Thylacine*

Sorry you had to rule out the IF.
I'm 6'8" and commute on a '00 62cm Club Racer - outstanding ride.

My .02

Well just started building this today and what a beauty:) CHeck out www.gvhbikes.com didnt order this thru them but a sure will my next one.

I will have to say an IF.

many good options on this thread. as a serotta owner, i would recommend them highly. my csi is one of the most comfortable, nimble and all-around excellent bikes i've ever ridden, let alone owned.

IF makes some nice looking frames and i've seen a couple of IF fixies around nyc that make me foam at the mouth, but their road frames have really wonky stock geometry with long top tubes and very short head tubes that look like they would lead to a weird ride. less so on the compact geometry models. they'll supposedly build you a bike to whatever specs you want, so if you know your desired numbers, IF would be a nice builder.

for what it's worth... i do recall a story (posted on the serotta forum, i believe) of someone who had real trouble with IF. he ordered a bike and the chainstays were made out of a steel different from what was spec'd on their site and different from what he wanted and they refused to take the frame back. i don't know what the outcome was, but it seemed like one of those epic tales.

sevens are sweet bikes, no doubt. ben serotta told me once that they were the competition he was most worried about (which means something, coming from him) - kind of the younger, hipper custom ti builder that serotta wished they were. i see way more sevens on the road than serottas, so i'd say seven won that one. i've ridden two or three sevens, all ti, all lovely. i don't know anything about their steel offerings.

i will say that serotta knows steel like no one else.

waterford, vanilla, sachs, spectrum, land shark, dave kirk (whos non-serotta work i've never seen in person, but his incredibly insightful and level-headed internet posts on the serotta forum lead me to believe he's got his stuff together) and lots of others all do great work. it's really hard to go wrong with any of these builders.

take a look at chris zanotti cycles (http://www.zanotticycles.com/) - a newcomer who does absolutely top notch work and works with the latest and greatest steels and other materials.

Personally, the only way I see Seven as being 'hipper' than Serotta is in economic terms, in terms of the way they have streamlined the whole production process of building and ordering a custom bike. There's nothing hip about Seven in my eyes - they're just another lauded little-big custom manufacturer - very corporate and bland in my eyes. IF isn't much better. Sure, they have 'funky' graphics with that psuedo high-roller prankster look going on, but how have they progressed over and above what Fat City was doing?

I know I'm biased considering I run the worlds smallest bike company, but really, there's so many great builders out there that are amazing and either aren't good at promoting themselves or chose not to because of modesty or whatever ( unlike me *laugh* ). Sacha White of Vanilla does great work. Brian Caulfield at Kavik bikes does the best Aluminium and Scandium you'll ever see, and Don Ferris of Anvil bikes is a true adventurer in steel. Forget the big names - they're boring and don't need your cash.

Yay for the little guys! :)

.............for what it's worth... i do recall a story (posted on the serotta forum, i believe) of someone who had real trouble with IF. he ordered a bike and the chainstays were made out of a steel different from what was spec'd on their site and different from what he wanted and they refused to take the frame back. i don't know what the outcome was, but it seemed like one of those epic tales.

I believe it is safe to say that in the end he was very happy with *both* of his IF's.Here is a link to the bikes. (http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3051)

I vote for the waterford or the IF.Both beutiful and well built bikes

Ritalin,

As a Serotta owner, I too am very biased. One thing that has continuously impressed
me is Serotta's customer service. Ben and Co. are very concerned that you be
100% happy with your ride.
In your price range stock prices are for a CIII (no lugs) $1495 without fork.
Fierte (stock sizes only) $1120 with Kestrel fork (no other fork options available).
CSI (the biggie of the group) is $2195 without fork (but fully lugged).
CXII (Tri bike?) is $1395 without fork

I'm very impressed with Dave Kirk's work, he is totally custom. He was one of the
chief R&D guys at Serotta, designed the H'ors Catagorie, and the ST seat stays.
Check his work out at:
http://www.kirkframeworks.com/

IF is also very nice as is Seven.
Vanilla, Moon, and Anvil are really nice. If I were going to buy new frame from
small builder it would be either Kirk or Ferris (anvil).

Just my .02 worth

Marty

Just to stir the pot :) , if I were going to buy a new steel frame, and coincidentally I just did, I would buy one from one of the good British companies like Bob Jackson or Mercian. IMHO, many American builders are way overpriced, by maybe 50-100%. And you will only have to experience the quality of service you get from the British companies once to keep you coming back for more. I paid $600.00 delivered for a new, 631 steel frame from Bob Jackson. Admittedly this tubing is not the high zoot, ultra light, super duper GET that is trying to compete with the latest Zirconium enhanced aluminum tubing used by the lightest of the moment frame, but it will be a strong, servicable frame with a solid ride suited to the purpose I hope to use it for.

Website photo of my new frame. Mine will be in Light Royal Blue enamel with white decals and no pinstriping.

I love the Anvils and the Sachs ... incidentally, the wait for a Sachs is now about 30 months ...

I talked to Dave Kirk and decided he's a cool guy, nice looking bikes... good price and quick turn around. I think he's the man that's going to build my bike.

Thanks for the help guys!

excellent choice. you won't be disappointed, i'm sure.

I agree - Dave Kirk is an excellent choice. His workmanship is beyond reproach.

Love my custom Serotta - Colorado III built to fit my hand amputation and has an awesome Garnet-fade-to-Gold paint scheme to match my FSU school colors. Picture the school/ team of your choice on your bike - OOOHH BABY!!!

I talked to Dave Kirk and decided he's a cool guy, nice looking bikes... good price and quick turn around. I think he's the man that's going to build my bike.

Thanks for the help guys!

Yes, a most excellent choice. Dave is a super nice guy and very easy to work with . The hardest part is making paint choices , the skies the limit .

My Kirk should be here in the next few days , I'll post a pic when it arrives . :D :D :D

.


Here's my new Kirk

lovely... it's nice to see classic craftmanship and meticulous detail (man.. that BB!) applied to a a rather contemporary looking frame (filet brazing, sloping TT and such).

what's the JB decal on the chainstay about?

what's the JB decal on the chainstay about?[/QUOTE]


JB, aka Joe Bell, is the painter that Dave Kirk uses . He's top notch . Here is a link to Joe Bell (http://www.campyonly.com/joebell.html)


Bob