Advocacy & Safety - Does speed matter?

Opinions seem to vary widely here. Beginners are afraid that motorists will get mad at them if they are out in the lane going slowly, so they stick to the side probably more than they should. Experienced VC'ists use general travel lanes extensively, and claim that everyone can and should, even those going slower, but of course experienced VC'ists generally go faster than beginners so it's easier for them to say that.

I'd like to believe that speed doesn't matter, and I believe it probably doesn't in some ways. Can a motorist really tell the difference between a bicyclist going 10 and one going 20? Maybe. Does it matter to him? Don't know. Does it make a difference to how long he is "held up" behind the cyclist? Probably very little in most cases. Is it easier to integrate with a smaller speed differential? I think so. Is there a "too slow" for using the travel lanes? Not according to any law that I know of.

I suspect it matters in some ways and not in others. What do you think?

(BTW, I'm intentionally NOT posting this in the VC subforum because I want a wider range of opinion.)

i believe once speed differential exceeds some ratio (1:2.5 perhaps), the static from taking the lane increases to create unpaltable riding conditions for cyclists regardless of their skill level or thick skin or vehicular cycling savvy.

I am quite capable of taking the lane. on Saturday myself and 2 other bicyclists took the general lanes of the interstate while we were doing 40 mph off a mountain pass, i have no qualms about sharing any roadway with Motorvehicle traffic. this was below the speed diffferential ratio of palatability, however, so was actually quite pleasant.

i recognize the change in road rhythm and dynamics of riding much slower than prevailing traffic. a high speed differential increases the hook potential, decreases motorists' closing times and corresponding reaction time, and leads more vehicles per to pass a cyclist.

if you've ridden 10 mph in the midst of 50 mph traffic, john, you yourself would know it's got a different feel than when you're clipping along at 24....

does it make a difference to the motorist? aside from decreasing closing and corresponding reaction times, increases the chance of a right of way violation from oncoming and overtakers alike, the motorists likely think bicyclists shouldn't be on the roads regardless so how much of a difference is more operating parameters than motorists' 'feelings' about bicyclists.

i suggest it makes a big difference to how bicyclists will feel about riding on a road. creating roadway conditions that predicate high speed differentials between bikes and cars will create an operational dynamic that leads to *********** of cyclist ride share.

I hate riding in traffic (I know I know...I AM TRAFFIC) but regardless, it's dangerous. But as mentioned, the faster the better because the vehcles closing speed is reduced, and their reaction time increased, and their acceleration when passing minimized, reducing the chance of a head-on collsion (or swerving to avoid one, hitting you instead).

I take side-roads and bike paths as much as possible, and don't hestate to ride slowly on the sidewalk in especially dangerous places. My life to me is worth more than being "well within my rights."

I hate riding in traffic (I know I know...I AM TRAFFIC) but regardless, it's dangerous. But as mentioned, the faster the better because the vehcles closing speed is reduced, and their reaction time increased, and their acceleration when passing minimized, reducing the chance of a head-on collsion (or swerving to avoid one, hitting you instead).

I take side-roads and bike paths as much as possible, and don't hestate to ride slowly on the sidewalk in especially dangerous places. My life to me is worth more than being "well within my rights."

What he said^^^.

I will only travel on faster, more crowded roads if I have no other option. I live in Chicago and I ride 600+ miles a month except in winter.

It's not that hard to stay off fast, busy streets. 90% of my miles are on bike friendly roads and MUP. I'll put my bike on a bus to avoid dangerous roads.

I will take the lane regardless of speed.

Michael

Speed positioning is one of the principles of VC... Faster traffic to the left, slower to the right, and if you're stopped, get to the curb or off the roadway.

Speed matters in many ways. One reason it always matters is that the faster you ride, or more accurately put, the lower the speed differential, the more time the overtaking vehicle has to see the see the slower.

(BTW, I'm intentionally NOT posting this in the VC subforum because I want a wider range of opinion.)

This is madness John ... pure madness. :lol:

I think it does matter for a variety of reasons.

Anecdotally, most stints on high speed roads without shoulders tend to be relatively short. That is, cyclists will jump on the major arterial to connect preferred routes when no reasonable alternatives are available. Going 20 mph rather than 10 mph halves the amount of time spent on the high speed road.

If we believe that most cycling still takes places on roads with speed limits of 30 (35?) mph and lower, then going 20 instead of 10 mph would make a meaningful difference proportionately. It has been my experience that the lower that proportion, the less aggressive manuevering I experience by cars.

That written, I know "slow" VC riders that claim otherwise as well as people that agree with me in principle but maintain that the difference is not meaningful. Personally, I think that it presents a greater challenge but probably not an unreasonable one.

Good question, I think.

As a motor vehicle driver, bike speed does not much matter to me except that I assume slow riders may lack skill and demand extra attention.

As a rider, I need to watch my own speed when pedestrian traffic is high in a congested area or on a MUP. On the road, speed is just a small part of being predictable.

I avoid narrow high speed high traffic roads, but in my limited experience when cars are going by at 70 MPH it matters little whether I am riding at 10 MPH or 20 MPH.

Riding at 30 MPH makes everything right since that happens only in dreams.

As above, speed differentials are important. That also sets what I feel is the minimum safe passing distance. Less speed differential = smaller minimum safe distance.

Also, many motorists have the paradigm of cyclists traveling at speeds of 10 mph +/-. When I come rocking along at 2X that speed (or more :)), I'm often upon them sooner that they expect. I've seen the surprise on their faces when I fuss at them for pulling out or crossing my path.

So, on one hand, speed helps, and, on the other hand, it can be a detriment. Such is life.

And I am both a LCI and a certified driving instructor.

I'd like to believe that speed doesn't matter, and I believe it probably doesn't in some ways. Can a motorist really tell the difference between a bicyclist going 10 and one going 20? Maybe. Does it matter to him?

The motorist going 20 mph will notice the cyclist going 10 mph, and it matters to him.
The motorist going 10 mph will not notice the cyclist going 20 mph, and it doesn't matter to him.
The motorist going 20 mph will notice the cyclist going 20 mph, and will attempt to pass.

-Kurt

....
Also, many motorists have the paradigm of cyclists traveling at speeds of 10 mph +/-. When I come rocking along at 2X that speed (or more :)), I'm often upon them sooner that they expect. I've seen the surprise on their faces when I fuss at them for pulling out or crossing my path.

....

This is a good point. While it is often better to cycle fast, reducing the speed differential when you are concerned with vehicles behind you, caution and a slower speed may be prudent when approaching cars from behind.

This is particularly true when a vehicle has passed you. The driver may assume that once she's past you, you no longer exist in her universe, since you are a mere cyclist.

Happened to me yesterday. SUV driver passed me while I was inside the shoulder marker. She did not signal her upcoming right turn, but her slight creep to the fog line and slight slowing (even tho traffic in front of her was slowing) triggered my intuition that she would turn right at the last second, right in my path.

I should have slowed in addition to being attentive. Sure enough, she turned right, right in front of me. Fortunately I was making the same turn. I knew she was not only oblivious, but I was either in her blind spot, or she wouldn't check her right side mirror.

Again, I should have slowed more, no matter what my opinion was of HER behavior.

Certainly larger speed differentials are uncomfortable to most cyclists, but I think the fear is often greater than the real danger. That said, it seems to me that the biggest actual danger comes from the decreased reaction time, as danarnold has pointed out. A 30 MPH motorist overtaking a 5 MPH bicyclist has less reaction time from the point of first seeing the bicyclist than the same motorist overtaking a 20 MPH bicyclist, because the gap will be closed faster for the slower cyclist. Then other factors like blind spots, sight distance, and degree of motorist attention probably play a far greater role.

If my math is correct, I get the following motorist reaction times (or time taken to cover the gap) for a 30 MPH overtaking motorist sighting a bicyclist 100 feet away: For an 8 MPH bicyclist, about 3 seconds; for a 20 MPH bicyclist, about 6.8 seconds.

Speed definately matters and, most importantly, speed differential matters. Most advocates of VC, including the guru of VC (JF), will admit this. What they won't admit is the obvious conclusion-- that VC is impractical for some riders.

I've ridden fast and I've ridden slow. I've ridden VC and I've ridden non-VC. I've ridden almost as many years as JF has and I've been, for many years, something JF has never been: a dedicated transportational bicyclist. VC works in most situations but for some riders, non-VC techniques work better.

One of the big lies of VC is that VC works for all riders-- it doesn't.

Sometimes I ride fairly fast and ride 100% VC but, when I make trips to the store, I almost always average less than ten miles per hour (sad but true ). I suspect that many VC ideologues don't do a lot of riding in traffic at that speed, so their experience is rather limited.

One of the big problems I have with VC-ism is that many VC ideologues don't seem to give a rat's behind for bicyclists who ride that slowly. If they have little experience and don't give a rat's behind, why should anyone accept their dogma?

Yes. Speed matters, VC-ist dogma notwithstanding.

Until VC-ism addresses the issue of really slow riders (and stops ridiculing dedicated transportational bicyclists), VC-ism will never be accepted by transportational bicyclists as a practical paradigm ("paradigm" being a rather useless word that VC ideologues are quite fond of using).

[end of diatribe on Forester-inspired lunacy]

Don't know. Does it make a difference to how long he is "held up" behind the cyclist? Probably very little in most cases. Is it easier to integrate with a smaller speed differential? I think so. Is there a "too slow" for using the travel lanes? Not according to any law that I know of.

Generally, the FRAP laws allow bicycles to travel in the lane if they are traveling at the same speed as other traffic. That is, if traveling at the same speed as other traffic, then there is no FRAP requirement.

My experience has been that motorists don't really care if you are traveling at their speed. The frequency of being frustrated becomes greater as the speed differential increases.

Many of us have to use fast prime arterials to get from Point A to Point B, because these are the only available connections. I wish we could get the speed limits reduced at least somewhat on many of these shared roads.

One of the big problems I have with VC-ism is that many VC ideologues don't seem to give a rat's behind for bicyclists who ride that slowly. If they have little experience and don't give a rat's behind, why should anyone accept their dogma?

Yes. Speed matters, VC-ist dogma notwithstanding.

Until VC-ism addresses the issue of really slow riders (and stops ridiculing dedicated transportational bicyclists), VC-ism will never be accepted by transportational bicyclists as a practical paradigm ("paradigm" being a rather useless word that VC ideologues are quite fond of using).


And there it is.

As an LCI, I have quietly struggled with this dichotomy. I believe that, due to the vast range of speed & capabilities among cyclists, the true path is that there is no one true path.

Until VC-ism addresses the issue of really slow riders (and stops ridiculing dedicated transportational bicyclists), VC-ism will never be accepted by transportational bicyclists as a practical paradigm ("paradigm" being a rather useless word that VC ideologues are quite fond of using).

Well, this isn't a thread about VC; but what you describe above is not my experience with Vehicular Cycling/Cyclists.

Well, this isn't a thread about VC; but what you describe above is not my experience with Vehicular Cycling/Cyclists.

Admittedly, negative attitudes toward dedicated transportational bicyclists by VC-ists are usually subtle, and VC-ists will universally deny that such attitudes exist at all, but the attitudes do exist.

VC-ists are not known for countering the myths that dedicated transportational bicyclists are either too poor to afford a car (or are making an irrational choice between motoring and bicycling -- which is a thread that runs through John Forester's writings), or are alcoholics who can't get a driver's license. Granted, not all VC-ists believe either of those things.

Ridicule of other bicyclists is a staple of VC-ism, the fact that VC-ists doth protest too much (that their ideology is not elitist) notwithstanding.

In any case, the support and concern that VC-ists generally show for slow-moving dedicated transportational bicyclists is considerably less than inspiring.

Speed is just one variable in traffic negotiation, social friction, and safety, and its significance is affected by all of the other variables.

For instance, if there is very little other traffic on the road, and visibility is good, then drivers can change lanes without delay, and there is minimal safety or convenience concern even with high speed differentials. Note that the design speed of the road determines sight distances, which affects visibility. A speed differential of 30 mph on a 50 mph design speed road is less of a concern than such a speed differential on a 30 mph design speed road. Note that wrong-way cyclists cause speed differentials that can greatly exceed the design speeds of roads.

If visibility is good but traffic conditions do not allow convenient passing, the convenience effect may be pronounced but the safety issue may still be minimal. Modest-paced group rides on 45-55mph shoulderless roads frequently draw complaints from motorists but rarely do we hear about rear-end collisions involving such.

Reduced visibility is probably the greatest factor in the safety of high speed differentials. A high speed differential leaves even less time for drivers to react in a distance that has been shortened by reduced visibility. Cycling at night without good lights, poor weather, sun glare, and other issues may combine with high speed differential to cause serious problems. Similarly, driver distraction may reduce effective visibility and time to react.

Speed is just one variable in traffic negotiation, social friction, and safety, and its significance is affected by all of the other variables...

No doubt but, in some situations, speed does matter. Sometimes it matters a lot.

Many of us have to use fast prime arterials to get from Point A to Point B, because these are the only available connections. I wish we could get the speed limits reduced at least somewhat on many of these shared roads.

+17,345! If I had to ride narrow, high speed, congested roads I likely would not ride. In my humble opinion, current efforts to organize for traffic calming and alternative routing are just as important as the early League of American Wheelmen efforts to get roads paved.

I hope most all those who read and post here are involved in organized action for education, enforcement, engineering, evaluation and/or encouragement.

SPEED MATTERS...

MAKE THE CARS SLOW DOWN! ;)

How slow? Right lane... 20mph, other lanes 30, and passing lane ONLY on left. :thumb:

I just remembered, the other day one of the roads I ride on had enough debris in the bike lane that it was dangerous, and on that rare occasion I took the lane and pedalled my ass off, checking my 6 the whole time and wishing I had one of those dorky mirrors.

Asking if SPEED matters is like asking if SIZE matters...


YES! :p

Can a motorist really tell the difference between a bicyclist going 10 and one going 20?

Maybe, maybe not. I've been pulled over by the police because I was riding in the middle of a narrow lane (traveling ~15 mph) and the officer told me I was going "2-3 mph". Completely ridiculous -- I can walk faster than that.

Maybe, maybe not. I've been pulled over by the police because I was riding in the middle of a narrow lane (traveling ~15 mph) and the officer told me I was going "2-3 mph". Completely ridiculous -- I can walk faster than that.

Hey, I know you! :)

My speed relative to same-direction traffic can make riding full lane and merging left trivially easy, or dangerously impractical, depending on it's magnitude.

Hey, I know you! :)

Yep, it's fun finding other Portlanders on here :)

i suspect speed differentials and traffic dynamics related to speed differentials played a part in an LCI's recent fatal accident in NC.


Opinions seem to vary widely here.

seems the forum is in agreement in this thread, john.... speed does matter.

Being lazy by nature, I need a speedometer 100% of the time in order "incitivize" myself to cycle faster. I don't cycle for leisure, practically ever, I cycle nearly 7 days a week either for work or errands, and have done so for 30 years (since age 13). I have also been a bike courrier, speed has always been my pleasure on a bicycle.

I have cycled carefree among cars all my life and the faster I go, the more confident I feel. I love the feeling of catching up to the same cars at every street corner, look at them and give them a great big grin. I see them, they see me, we communicate.

When going the SAME speed as a motorized traffic, I make sure I'm just ahead of the passenger window. Never do I stay behind the passenger window without having my hands ready for a breaking eventuality. When side by side with high volume traffic, at speed, I pay as much attention to the drivers' body language as I do to the pavement ahead of me. Anytime I feel like I'm being boxed in a little too closely, I rise up on my seat and ride handless for a while, purposely adding a little giggle to my front wheel, that usually gets me a little extra space and respect (or is it fear) from the driver's next to me. That is my ultimate aim I think when I ride, make the car fear me instead of the reverse.

I know when I'm the car driver and a cyclist pulls a good move on me I freak a little and cuss, but it keeps me on my toes. Habitual incidentless driving induces carelessness.

No speed differential erks me, I grew up on a 70 km/h highway, that was my first experience of the road, NO SHOULDER. Very young I got used the feeling of huge logging 18-wheelers ruffling the sleeves of my vest, and loved the sensation of catching their air.

I realize those who grew up in dead end streets in suburbia can never attain that level of "agreement" with motorists. I'm a VCist most of the time, but I'll break that set of rules for a short-cut anytime.

I feel MUCH SAFER when riding faster.

Theoretically a cyclist could travel at the posted speed limit and not hold up traffic, cars would stay at least ten car lengths behind, and there would be no passing.

However; in the real world, a lot of motorists drive with excessive speed, and have no respect for the law, or for the lives of the people on bicycles.

Maybe or not relative to the speed of motorized traffic. There are arterials where Fabian Cancellara couldn't keep up with the speed of cars--and streets in old downtown areas, such as much of downtown Portland and downtown Seattle--where a fat slob like me can take a lane and not impede traffic.

One of the big problems I have with VC-ism is that many VC ideologues don't seem to give a rat's behind for bicyclists who ride that slowly. If they have little experience and don't give a rat's behind, why should anyone accept their dogma?

Yes. Speed matters, VC-ist dogma notwithstanding.

Until VC-ism addresses the issue of really slow riders (and stops ridiculing dedicated transportational bicyclists), VC-ism will never be accepted by transportational bicyclists as a practical paradigm ("paradigm" being a rather useless word that VC ideologues are quite fond of using).



Must beg to differ. I rely solely on my bicycle for transportation, and very little of my cycling is for purely recreational purposes. Yet I follow the rules for drivers of vehicles, which I believe is labeled as "VC" these days.

* I don't think speed matters with respect to not getting hit from behind. The reaction time is slower, but it's still huge. Someone pointed out 100 feet and 30MPH car as 3 seconds. Well, if they're not blind it's going to be 15-30 seconds since they should see 500-1000 feet ahead or adjust their speed to make up for blind corners, etc. I think most drivers do, except on highways where they live.

* Speed greatly affects my perception of "being in the way." If I'm going slower I feel more like I'm holding up traffic. Usually I'm holding up less traffic (just the realities of where I go slow here, it tends to happen on multi lane roads where passing is easy). Since I'm usually slow up a big hill I actually seem to get treated better: I think they recognize that I'm workin' pretty hard to do 10mph and leave me alone.

* Speed affects the time it takes to change lane position. I haven't seen this brought up yet. If I'm doing 20 I can change lane position much much easier than if I'm doing 10. I assume that's a combination of speed differential and the fact that higher speed covers more distance in the same time. I think this is big. If I'm doing 10 and traffic is doing 40 you can forget moving to the left lane. If I'm doing 20 and traffic is doing 30 it's not a big problem.

* I don't think traffic cares. Drivers perceive lycra weight weenies as travelling at 10mph. Sure, if you catch them on a huge hill! Maybe. I don't think motorists know how fast you're going and you're equally perceived as inconvenient regardless of speed.

* If you can't go fast enough to make the bike not wobble...

I'm going to be the contrarian here. Yes speed matters...to cyclists and only to cyclists.

Speed makes no difference to motorists. As far as they are concerned, there is no difference between a cyclist moving 15 mph, and one moving 25 mph. We are all too slow, as far as they are concerned. In fact, check it out for yourself, the next time you're driving a car. I bet you will notice little if any difference in cyclists' speeds.