Classic & Vintage - Cudak888's Top 5 List of Underrated C&V Machines:

(EDIT: Forgot to mention - I mean C&V VLW's)

Figured I'd give the underrated machines a go:

5. Marinoni anything (EDIT: Debatable):
I'll be perfectly honest, I've never had any hands-on experience with one. I'm placing it here purely after reading what I've heard about them - namely that every single person who has owned one says they ride particularly well, and that all of them seem to show excellent workmanship. Furthermore, they seem to be, on the average, reasonably affordable (definitely so in comparison to most Italian machines).

4. Japanese-made "Series" PDG Paramounts:
Oversized, lugged cromoly steel frames with completely functional Shimano drivetrain systems - some higher end then others. Depending on the model, one can conceivably pick one of these up for under $300. What isn't to like about that? Furthermore, if you think all Paramounts ride similar to the second-gen models (i.e., overbuilt and often "dead"), you might think differently after riding one.

3. Miyata 710:
How can you argue with a bike that comes stock with a triple-butted cromoly frame and Suntour Cyclone, and is often found on Craigslist under $250? You can't. Sure, it has that unmistakable Japanese-build look to it, no lug thinning, thick fork crown shoreline, boring dropout-to-stay treatment - but so does a high-end Team Fuji for twice the price.

2. Peugeot UO-8:
I debated on whether to consider this underrated - many of the folks here on the forum have caught onto the fact that Peugeot's high-tensile bargain 10 speed is a solid, inexpensive little frame. Furthermore, it isn't as heavy as one might think it is when upgraded with the right components (a simple Suntour FD, RD and shifters can solve the main weakness of the '70s-era UO's - the Simplex Prestiege groupset). Did I mention that they're plentiful? They might as well be the French Schwinn Continental - without the built-in boat anchor.

1. Raleigh Super Course (pre-1983):
I probably don't even need to introduce the Super Course. It was probably Raleigh's best-selling model with 531, and we all know what it is. It doesn't matter that the earlier models have stamped dropouts, and that some of the later '70s models were sloppy (like all late '70s Nottingham Raleigh products). They ride well, and you can do virtually anything with them (ask nlerner, king of Raleigh SC's). Best yet, it isn't entirely impossible to find one cheap - regardless of whether it is a first-gen SC, SC MkII, or the later third-gens. They're plentiful, reliable, versatile, and inexpensive.

(There are many others that I'm no doubt omitting. I can't think of them right now, and I'd probably be here for hours trying to figure out which belong in this list - it would end up being a top-10).

-Kurt

Oh, man... can't believe you left off the Sears, 531 Ted Williams Free Spirit...

ok...

I guess my bias towards the heavies and English-style bicycles shows in my thoughts. But I'll throw a couple into the mix:

Dayton/Huffman balloon tire bicycles built from the 1930-1950s (except for the flex death bikes). Collectors have caught on to some of these, but riders today think "Huffy=crap" often. In fact Dayton/Huffman bicycles of the earlier vintages were well-made and quite solid. They also had nice styling. The "long tail" Dayton La France is supremely beautiful and a rock solid machine.

Columbia balloon tire bicycles, especially the ones made from 1946-1951. These bicycles used pre-war styling and generally well-made components (some of the chrome isn't the best, but alright) but you can get them at a fraction of what a prewar Schwinn will cost. They generally ride nicely. If you like prewar styling and finish, but don't have the money, look for a 1940s era Columbia.

Columbia 3 speed roadsters, especially the early ones from the 1950s-early 1960s. These were meant to compete with the appearing Raleighs in the US. People often degrade them, but those that do really don't know about them. These were solid, quality 3 speed utility cycles that are just as reliable as Raleighs, and in many cases actually easier to work on at home. They often don't sell for much money compared to contemporary Raleighs, though they still use the reliable SA AW hub system, and regular caliper brakes.

Schwinn 3 speed cycles. These have come up in value lately. But when I was doing my Raleigh buying a few years ago, these came up often and sold for less than Raleighs often would sell for of the same vintage. Like the Columbias, some people degrade the 1 piece crank, but once you get a straight one and a good set of bearings + pedals, they're nice because they're easier to work on. I also like the frame finishing on many of these Schwinns-- very smooth and attractive. Many have relaxed frame angles, if you like a more casual ride. I somewhat regret not having gotten one when they were cheaper. I'm still on the look out though.

I'll also include a full category: late 1950s/early 1960s American middle weight bicycles, especially those from Schwinn, Columbia and JC Higgins. People often overlook these- too small to be ballooners, too big to be utility bicycles, too slow to be road machines. Yet they actually offer a nice, moderate ride with the look and some of the feel of a balloon tire at a fraction of the cost, and often with a nice 2 speed Bendix hub or even a 3 speed SA gear. They make nice cruisers for people who want something a little lighter and faster than a full heavy.

I agree about the "UO8" very underated,what a SCHWEEEET little bike they are !

-Many early rigid MTB's. Especially amongst us frankenbikers, they are a virtually limitless platform to work with.

-Any of the "other" Trek roadbikes. All those unloved 330's, 400's etc.

-Can I call Klein underrated? I don't think they can be overrated, so they must be.

jim

I think the entire line of mid '80's Tenax tubed Schwinns are highly underrated. And I've also been pleasantly surprised by how well my '74 Motobecane Grand Jubilee rides.

I wholeheartedly agree about the UO-8.

-Many early rigid MTB's. Especially amongst us frankenbikers, they are a virtually limitless platform to work with.


Yes, this.

I think the entire line of mid '80's Tenax tubed Schwinns are highly underrated.

+1
I have several of the mid to late eighties ones and am very impressed with them.
Blindfolded, I'm not sure I could tell the difference between the ride of my '87 Super Sport and my '89 Waterford built Paramount.

As far as Schwinn road bikes go, I think they are the most bang for your buck.

How interesting, since I was tempted to mention Marinoni in the other thread.

+1
I have several of the mid to late eighties ones and am very impressed with them.
Blindfolded, I'm not sure I could tell the difference between the ride of my '87 Super Sport and my '89 Waterford built Paramount.

As far as Schwinn road bikes go, I think they are the most bang for your buck.

I am quite fond of my 87 Super Sport frame also. Do not have a Waterford to compare it to, but it rides just as well as any of my other bikes.

(EDIT: Forgot to mention - I mean C&V VLW's)

Figured I'd give the underrated machines a go:

5. Marinoni anything:
I'll be perfectly honest, I've never had any hands-on experience with one. I'm placing it here purely after reading what I've heard about them - namely that every single person who has owned one says they ride particularly well, and that all of them seem to show excellent workmanship. Furthermore, they seem to be, on the average, reasonably affordable (definitely so in comparison to most Italian machines).

-Kurt


Back in my shop days we shod Marinonis and to be honest with you we had more complaints about them than other make we sold. Every custom frameset we sold was NOT made to the specification requested. Regardless of it being the wrong color, wrong shade, wrong paint scheme or an incorrect fork crown everyone had issues. On top of that they had very delicate paint.

I'm not saying the lug work or brazing or chrome quality or ride quality was sub par but when a customer orders ABC and gets XYZ it says something about the company.

Back in my shop days we shod Marinonis and to be honest with you we had more complaints about them than other make we sold. Every custom frameset we sold was NOT made to the specification requested. Regardless of it being the wrong color, wrong shade, wrong paint scheme or an incorrect fork crown everyone had issues. On top of that they had very delicate paint.

I'm not saying the lug work or brazing or chrome quality or ride quality was sub par but when a customer orders ABC and gets XYZ it says something about the company.

Some of the stuff was subbed out - including frames coming in from Italy. They're not bad; just on so many people's "underrated" list that they've become overrated. Plus, some folks seem to think they're as good as the very best production shops, which they're not, IMO. Having said that, I could have bought one with 8-speed Dura Ace (pre-STI) for $350, and definitely should have bit. But mainly I'm responding to say I dig the new avatar.

How interesting, since I was tempted to mention Marinoni in the other thread.

Yeah, I was thinking this whole list could easily fit in the "overrated" post.

But I guess all bikes are overrated by some criteria. Anyway, the whole thing is subjective to the "rater". And there's a lot of overrated raters in this world.

4. Japanese-made "Series" PDG Paramounts:
Oversized, lugged cromoly steel frames with completely functional Shimano drivetrain systems - some higher end then others. Depending on the model, one can conceivably pick one of these up for under $300. What isn't to like about that? Furthermore, if you think all Paramounts ride similar to the second-gen models (i.e., overbuilt and often "dead"), you might think differently after riding one.


I passed on one for a great price on eBay just 2 weeks ago.
Are they legit or what?

I just sort of assumed they were simply hoe'd out version of a real Paramount...and for some reason i thought they were Aluminum.

maybe i should go back and kick myself a little.:o

I Gotta agree about the Super Course :thumb:

I think the entire line of mid '80's Tenax tubed Schwinns are highly underrated.

Yes.

And any Valite-tubed Fuji is worth a look also. And sticking with Fuji, some surpisingly inexpensive ones have very nice triple-butted tubing also.

j

I would say there are probably dozens of framebuilders from the late '70s and early '80s that made frames as good as the top guys. Maybe the eye candy wasn't as impressive. Lots of those bikes go without love nowadays. I expect that their prices will never catch up to the top names, but that just makes the bikes a bargain. And some of them will catch on and gain price parity over time. I'm seeing crappy low-end production bikes go for 4 times what you can pay for a little known all-super record top of the line bike from a little known builders. I know where my money would go. If people want the production bikes, they can have them.

(EDIT: Forgot to mention - I mean C&V VLW's)

Figured I'd give the underrated machines a go:



3. Miyata 710:
How can you argue with a bike that comes stock with a triple-butted cromoly frame and Suntour Cyclone, and is often found on Craigslist under $250? You can't. Sure, it has that unmistakable Japanese-build look to it, no lug thinning, thick fork crown shoreline, boring dropout-to-stay treatment - but so does a high-end Team Fuji for twice the price.



Early 710 were double-butted, but still real nice framesets.
I think you need to expand this to all the middle-tier Miyata road bikes (310-714) from, say, '81 to '90.
Top
('81 710, '87 512).

I think the entire line of mid '80's Tenax tubed Schwinns are highly underrated. And I've also been pleasantly surprised by how well my '74 Motobecane Grand Jubilee rides.

I wholeheartedly agree about the UO-8.

With what Miamijim stated, I'm tempted to replace Marioni with one of those Tenax machines - they didn't come to mind, but they are an obvious contender.

Come to think of it, I've always classified the Tenax machines with the mid to higher end Miyata (310-714, as Top suggests) and '83-86 Raleigh USA machines (Prestige, Super Course, Competition, Grand Prix, and the Team USA Replica).

-Kurt

-Can I call Klein underrated? I don't think they can be overrated, so they must be.

I'd say relatively underrated, in comparison to Cannondale.

-Kurt

I might also suggest the Vitus 888 motos.
Top

The higher end Univega's and Lotus's, thought they have a following, are under-rated.

Faggin. Seriously. Find one person who has one who does not like it.

+1 on the early to mid-80' MTB's.

Mid-80's mid-level schwins (above Le tour, but below Paramount). Not souitable for the Tour de France, but basically $%$# good bikes.

A bike with better tubing than the UO-8, about 24# as originally equipped, and can usually be had at least as cheap as the Pug is the early 70's Gitane Interclub. The later ones could probably be included, too. A good solid inexpensive ride.

A lot of the bikes I have seen mentioned here I haven't really seen in real life at all. Only a few.

Some small name bikes which very few have heard about? Probably underrated

Especially in the past bikes have been such a regional thing. Different places have different bikes. The world before internet was a very different place. Even today searching for some bike manufacturer will get 4 or 5 results on this forum. Maybe they are mentioned somewhere on the internet , but the bikes being localized in real life makes them virtual bikes for most people.

Not a bad list, I'd have to agree on the Paramount and almost any Miyata ending in "ten."
The others, no clue hereabouts.

My own fault for driving up the value of my own personal "underrated" example, to the point where it's now fairly recognized as a pretty decent bike.

1. The best handling bicycle I ever owned was an off-the-rack, 1990 Bob Jackson. Shame that thing was a little too small for me. It went exactly where you wanted it to, and could turn circles around almost anything. They aren't dirt cheap, but it's quite possible to pick one up for about $500.00. If I were to come across a deal on one in my size, I'd sell something off to get it.

2. A few years back, I stumbled upon a Fuji Finest. When dialed in, it rides like silk. Not even rolling over yearling groundhog can phase it. :o I got away from it for a couple years as I experimented with the aforementioned Bob Jackson, and the Surly LHT, but she's poised to make a comeback. Not bad for another bike that can pretty much be had for under $500.00.

3. I'm biased, because a Super Course was my first "good" bike. Unfortunately, now mine hardly ever gets ridden. Definitely a great value though.

4. Raleigh Professional - I hear people rag on Raleighs for their poor finish all the time. I have two that match the stereotype myself, but there is absolutely nothing I can complain about with the finish of my pre-boom Professional. The mitering is perfect, the brazing is clean, the lugs are thinned (ok, the original paint was long gone when I got it, so maybe that wasn't perfect). Regardless, for a bike that's routinely maligned simply for being a Raleigh, it's well made, a joy to ride, and only recently have been starting to get a bit pricey).

5. ???? I honestly don't have first-hand experience with something I'd place 5th. Maybe I'll cop out and say small, non-"name" British post-war built marques. In honor of the J.A. Holland I once had, that now has found a loving home in Colorado.

Marinoni, yes!

About 4 years ago, I had the unique opportunity to overhaul a Marinoni owned by none other than Barbara Hintzen (if I have to explain who she is to you CVers, there are still too many chauvinists in the world1). It had obviously been 'rode hard and put away wet', but the work on the frame was absolutely top-notch. Hers would've been about 1978/9 vintage, in solid red with white graphics, no chrome and Campy short dropouts. Once completed, she began riding it again on a regular basis and pronounced it just as good as it ever was.

I scored a nice Campy SR crankset and a truly beat-up pair of SR TI spindled pedals. The outer cage ends were nearly gone - I mean, that lady must have been showering sparks in every crit she rode.

An unforgettable experience - she also autographed my copy of 'The Bicycle Racing Book' by William 'Sundown' Sanders.

4. Raleigh Professional - I hear people rag on Raleighs for their poor finish all the time. I have two that match the stereotype myself, but there is absolutely nothing I can complain about with the finish of my pre-boom Professional. The mitering is perfect, the brazing is clean, the lugs are thinned (ok, the original paint was long gone when I got it, so maybe that wasn't perfect). Regardless, for a bike that's routinely maligned simply for being a Raleigh, it's well made, a joy to ride, and only recently have been starting to get a bit pricey).

The first bike I saw way back when that I really wanted. Finally got one, years ago, 1970, numbered. Haven't riden it much, but from the outside it sure looks sweet...

Yeah, I made the list this time!
I flipped a Schwinn Breeze (too small, Ladies bike) this spring that I rode around the block once or twice. I liked it enough that I'd like to find a tall men's version. Being a Raleigh guy, I was kind of surprised.

I'll vote for the 80's Mississippi Schwinn's not a Schwinn fan, but they are nice bikes and still fairly common, someday I'll find one in 23"! Good components and terrific wheelsets.

70's and 80's Vitus tubed Motobecanes, great machines.

I'm biased on Raleigh S.C.'s :D

Yeah, I made the list this time!
I flipped a Schwinn Breeze (too small, Ladies bike) this spring that I rode around the block once or twice. I liked it enough that I'd like to find a tall men's version. Being a Raleigh guy, I was kind of surprised.

They're really nice overall utility bicycles. They seem to exist in a nice middle ground.

By the simple fact that a bike makes this list, I think that it can't possibly be under-rated. Especially if it is a widely known brand or bike. You could perhaps deem it under-appreciated but not under-rated. My garage is full of under-rated bikes, made by builders that most collectors have never even heard of. When you look at the construction details and take them for a ride you will understand what I mean. Virtually all are niche builders who never expanded beyond their own niche or area but made exquisite bikes.

Mid- to high-level Schwinns, like the Le Tour, Prelude, Premise, etc. C&V peoples tend to want the Paramounts and basically overlook all other Schwinns as being gaspipe Varsities. It's unfortunate but keeps the price down for the rest of us.

Going for ride quality as the major attribute the best values I've had or have:

Univega Gran Premio
Rigi stainless
BMZ Monostay
Miyata built Specialized Allez
Landshark
Casati Monza
Lemond TSX Z-Team Malliot Jaune
Various Raleigh USA S. Course/Competition
Kellogg Ross Signature
Coppi

Absolute best values for the money:
Raleigh USA Competition
Univega Gran Premio
BMZ
'84 Specialized Allez
Tom Kellogg Ross Signature

Absolute best values for the money:
Raleigh USA Competition
Univega Gran Premio
BMZ
'84 Specialized Allez
Tom Kellogg Ross Signature

If you see a Kellogg-built Signature going for a bargain price, let me know. I may be wrong, but I suspect one would go for good money on ebay. I saw a Kellogg custom complete bike for sale at the Trexlertown swap the first year I went for something like $800. I wish I could go back and take a closer look at that deal - I didn't have the cash, so I didn't bother to figure out if it was my size. One is definitely on my short-list of "want-to-find."

I´m swedish and scandinavian bias due to my experience on north european bikes. Therefor I would suggest following list;

1) All high end Crescent and Monark race bikes made during the 70`s. They were all well built (made to last) and high end components were used. They equals easily any french, US or british bike from that era. The MCB-bikes won loads of trophys!

2) Norwegian DBS; made some sugersweet rides in the 70/80`s on daccordi frames. Very hard to come by today.

3) Danish SCO; the danes always took lot of pride in their bike-industry. A high end SCO from 60/70`s must be a collectors dream (over here anyway).

4) Rex; swedish brand. Made some excellent race bikes in the 70/80`s. Vanished when the MTB-wave hit the bike scene.

5) Austrian Puch; alongside the low end production (as everyone else above mentioned) the high end bikes were solid race machines with personality.

I´m swedish and scandinavian bias due to my experience on north european bikes. Therefor I would suggest following list;

1) All high end Crescent and Monark race bikes made during the 70`s. They were all well built (made to last) and high end components were used. They equals easily any french, US or british bike from that era. The MCB-bikes won loads of trophys!

2) Norwegian DBS; made some sugersweet rides in the 70/80`s on daccordi frames. Very hard to come by today.

3) Danish SCO; the danes always took lot of pride in their bike-industry. A high end SCO from 60/70`s must be a collectors dream (over here anyway).

4) Rex; swedish brand. Made some excellent race bikes in the 70/80`s. Vanished when the MTB-wave hit the bike scene.

5) Austrian Puch; alongside the low end production (as everyone else above mentioned) the high end bikes were solid race machines with personality.

Great post - very informative! Thanks.

It seems the underrated bikes then get "rated." Does this mean they are then disquaified from being underrated? ,, :twitchy:

The best thing about this thread is that I've been able to read about how others rate bikes I've never seen, many I've never heard of...:thumb:

It seems the underrated bikes then get "rated." Does this mean they are then disquaified from being underrated? ,, :twitchy:

Yeah, good question!

What I'm wondering...

If U0-8's are underrated, and PX-10's are overrated, does that mean the U0-8 is the better bike?

I agree on the Paramount Series bikes - I rode one 1000 miles in the past year and it is a sweet bike for sure. Unfortunately mine had 650c wheels and I picked up an old Bianchi to try out instead because I wanted "normal" sized road wheels. The Paramount PDG Series 7 650c 54cm bike is now for sale.

i can't believe 80's Raleigh USA 555sl and 531 frames bikes arent on this list.

If you see a Kellogg-built Signature going for a bargain price, let me know. I may be wrong, but I suspect one would go for good money on ebay. I saw a Kellogg custom complete bike for sale at the Trexlertown swap the first year I went for something like $800. I wish I could go back and take a closer look at that deal - I didn't have the cash, so I didn't bother to figure out if it was my size. One is definitely on my short-list of "want-to-find."

What size then? The bike I own cost me $800 in full Super Record and I think it was a screaming bargain for what it is. I saw a 55cm c2c sell on the Serotta forum a few months back for $400 frame alone.

If you see a Kellogg-built Signature going for a bargain price, let me know.

I know of a rusty Ross Custom Signature Series Super Gran Tour XV 57cm locally:

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu143/macedeno21/IMG00132.jpg

-Kurt

1973 Schwinn World Voyageur. First generation Dura-Ace grouppo and a Panasonic-built frame. To the uninitiated, it looks like another garden variety '70s Schwinn. I think I miss it the most of all the bikes I no longer own.

Japanese Bianchi
Batavus
Raleigh Technium


I agree that the "low end" Treks, specifically the 330, are great bikes. I admire Trek for using pretty good tubing, and alloy everything, in their low-enders, and even offering 531 in the Elance series.

Japanese Bianchi

Agreed. The best riding "hands-off" frameset I've ever ridden was a Japanese-made Bianchi. Unbelievable.

-Kurt

Yeah, good question!

What I'm wondering...

If U0-8's are underrated, and PX-10's are overrated, does that mean the U0-8 is the better bike?

Uhhmmm......then PSVs are just fine!?? ;^))

Chombi
84 Peugeot PSV

A bike with better tubing than the UO-8, about 24# as originally equipped, and can usually be had at least as cheap as the Pug is the early 70's Gitane Interclub. The later ones could probably be included, too. A good solid inexpensive ride.

IMO,another underrated classic Peugeot from the 80's would be the PH10. A budget "sport tourer" built with their in-house Carbolite 103 tubing and Peugeot's lugless frame construction. I modded out my PH 10 and got it to about 22 pounds light with better wheels and some better/lighter components. I really liked the liveiness of the frame on that bike. Although much heavier than my next bike the PSV, it really felt responsiver in sprints and climbs and the angles on the frame felt to be ideal for most situations. The real nice pearl white finish and graphics also fooled a lot of cycling friends who mistook it for a high line Peugeot. had many many fun miles on it before I traded it in. good thing is, the bike worked just as good as a toned down tourer/city bike if an owner would want to retain the original components on it.
Dang, I should have kept that bike!

Chombi
84 Peugeot PSV

someone has to say it.
the most under-valued, unknown, unappreciated group of builders (production and custom) have
to be the Dutch. (yah, aren't you surprized to hear me say that).
So my list.
1) Gazelle: Champion du Mondial AA, AB top rated frames built any way you want.
2) Batavus: professional model, 531 frame.
3) Zieleman: I mean seriously how many of you ever heard of Ko Zieleman?
4) RIH: how can a builder with over 60 world and olympic championships, and over 300 national titles
be so unkown outside of the Netherlands?
5) Trek: everyone talks like the early steel treks were dreck, but you know, they'd give the Italians
a run for their money, and at a fraction of the price. most bang for the buck I know of.

Marty

5) Trek: everyone talks like the early steel treks were dreck, but you know, they'd give the Italians
a run for their money, and at a fraction of the price. most bang for the buck I know of.

Marty

Which Italians? I've seen some sweet Italian frames go unbid and unbought at larcenous prices.