Laminarman
08-21-09, 06:52 PM
Didn't see it definitively here but on Versus there's a press release from Astana saying they won't negotiate Alberto's contract.
Professional Cycling For the Fans - AC WILL stay with Astana
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Dubbayoo
08-21-09, 07:01 PM
Translation - they haven't been given suitable motivation to release him like money or a threat to sit out the entire year, etc. As far as we know he hasn't even asked to be released.
Laminarman
08-21-09, 07:18 PM
Dub you may be right. They said they look forward to more wins with him. We'll see I guess.
OrionKhan
08-22-09, 10:35 AM
I think that's the same reporting from this thread...http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=574759
Astana pretty much has to come out and make that statement. Astana is effectively trying to raise the bidding amount. And it also helps them from a sponsor retention and recruitment standpoint. No word has come from Contador yet. That alone speaks volumes. Astana is posturing now. They're playing the cards that they have and AC is playing his. Still a long transfer season to go. Its really going to come down to how bad another team wants AC and how much they are going to be willing to pay to buy AC out of the last year of his deal.
Astana pretty much has to come out and make that statement. Astana is effectively trying to raise the bidding amount. And it also helps them from a sponsor retention and recruitment standpoint. No word has come from Contador yet. That alone speaks volumes. Astana is posturing now. They're playing the cards that they have and AC is playing his. Still a long transfer season to go. Its really going to come down to how bad another team wants AC and how much they are going to be willing to pay to buy AC out of the last year of his deal.
ajwray
08-22-09, 05:37 PM
AC has no cards. Astana holds them all unless they breach. It's going to be interesting to see what Astana does especially with Vino coming back.
kwrides
08-23-09, 05:41 AM
AC has no cards. Astana holds them all unless they breach. It's going to be interesting to see what Astana does especially with Vino coming back.
insert facepalm here
insert facepalm here
ajwray
08-23-09, 08:19 AM
insert facepalm here
Insert any response of substance here. I guess if you want to consider sitting out until your contract up a card, he has one but I don't know anybody who considers that a viable option.
Insert any response of substance here. I guess if you want to consider sitting out until your contract up a card, he has one but I don't know anybody who considers that a viable option.
DenisMenchov
08-23-09, 08:21 AM
BAD NEWS FOR AC. He is basically a puppet with no options if he's under contract. And with Vino coming back, Astana might not even get invited...or worse...vino tests positive for doping again and astana gets kicked out of the tour any way. Regardless, AC will be carrying a much bigger burden with Astana, so I don't see him getting a podium next TDF.
OrionKhan
08-23-09, 03:26 PM
AC does have cards to play.
Actually, him sitting out the year does hurt Astana. They lose sponsorships and races. Then he walks and they get nothing out of it. It hurts AC, but riding for Astana may hurt him anyways depending on how the team sets up. Or he could pull the disgruntled player card and half-ass it through out the season. Then Astana pays him basically for nothing.
Professional Cycling is no different from any other professional sport when it comes down to player/team negotiations. The idea that a star player under contract doesn't have any cards to play shows an ignorance of professional sports over the past 20 years. Contracts get ripped up and re-written all the time. Until AC says that he's riding for Astana next year, its still up in the air. He very well may be waiting to see who's going to be on the Astana roster before he makes a statement. If he thinks the team is strong enough and you take away the LA/JB drama, he might decide to ride out another year.
Actually, him sitting out the year does hurt Astana. They lose sponsorships and races. Then he walks and they get nothing out of it. It hurts AC, but riding for Astana may hurt him anyways depending on how the team sets up. Or he could pull the disgruntled player card and half-ass it through out the season. Then Astana pays him basically for nothing.
Professional Cycling is no different from any other professional sport when it comes down to player/team negotiations. The idea that a star player under contract doesn't have any cards to play shows an ignorance of professional sports over the past 20 years. Contracts get ripped up and re-written all the time. Until AC says that he's riding for Astana next year, its still up in the air. He very well may be waiting to see who's going to be on the Astana roster before he makes a statement. If he thinks the team is strong enough and you take away the LA/JB drama, he might decide to ride out another year.
ajwray
08-23-09, 09:38 PM
The idea that a star player under contract doesn't have any cards to play shows an ignorance of professional sports over the past 20 years.
The fact is the contract is in the hands of Astana. They have final say until they breach. Sure contracts get changed IF the contract holder wants to. I guess you miss all the NFL'ers like Strahan for example who have sat out and lost pay because they wanted more $ but never got it. If the contract holder thinks there is something in it for them like getting rid of a rotten apple, team chemistry, $, or other compensation they MAY change terms but they don't have to. In this case AC pouting isn't going to hurt Astana companies as far as I can see.
BTW...I'm not saying AC is pouting, or suggesting anything about AC other than contractually he is stuck and I will refrain from the petty personal attacks that seem to be aplenty on the professional forum.
The fact is the contract is in the hands of Astana. They have final say until they breach. Sure contracts get changed IF the contract holder wants to. I guess you miss all the NFL'ers like Strahan for example who have sat out and lost pay because they wanted more $ but never got it. If the contract holder thinks there is something in it for them like getting rid of a rotten apple, team chemistry, $, or other compensation they MAY change terms but they don't have to. In this case AC pouting isn't going to hurt Astana companies as far as I can see.
BTW...I'm not saying AC is pouting, or suggesting anything about AC other than contractually he is stuck and I will refrain from the petty personal attacks that seem to be aplenty on the professional forum.
StanSeven
08-23-09, 10:13 PM
The fact is the contract is in the hands of Astana. They have final say until they breach. Sure contracts get changed IF the contract holder wants to. I guess you miss all the NFL'ers like Strahan for example who have sat out and lost pay because they wanted more $ but never got it. If the contract holder thinks there is something in it for them like getting rid of a rotten apple, team chemistry, $, or other compensation they MAY change terms but they don't have to. In this case AC pouting isn't going to hurt Astana companies as far as I can see.
BTW...I'm not saying AC is pouting, or suggesting anything about AC other than contractually he is stuck and I will refrain from the petty personal attacks that seem to be aplenty on the professional forum.
They essentially breached last year when they didn't pay the riders. Lance put enough pressure for them to come up with the money. I think any good lawyer could get him out of the contract.
BTW...I'm not saying AC is pouting, or suggesting anything about AC other than contractually he is stuck and I will refrain from the petty personal attacks that seem to be aplenty on the professional forum.
They essentially breached last year when they didn't pay the riders. Lance put enough pressure for them to come up with the money. I think any good lawyer could get him out of the contract.
OrionKhan
08-24-09, 01:24 AM
The fact is the contract is in the hands of Astana. They have final say until they breach. Sure contracts get changed IF the contract holder wants to. I guess you miss all the NFL'ers like Strahan for example who have sat out and lost pay because they wanted more $ but never got it. If the contract holder thinks there is something in it for them like getting rid of a rotten apple, team chemistry, $, or other compensation they MAY change terms but they don't have to. In this case AC pouting isn't going to hurt Astana companies as far as I can see.
BTW...I'm not saying AC is pouting, or suggesting anything about AC other than contractually he is stuck and I will refrain from the petty personal attacks that seem to be aplenty on the professional forum.
Your example is fine except that it applies to a situation where the player has multiple years left on the deal. There is a difference when the player is going into the final year of the contract. When there are multiple years, a player sitting out won't do any good because he still going to have to come back the next year. But when he's going into the final year, its a different story. If the team is certain that the player won't re-sign with them, they are better off working a deal that best suits the team. Like posturing to get a high buyout from a team that wants to sign AC.
Astana could be stubborn and try to insist that AC rides for them next season. But that would probably work against them in the long run. If Astana wants to stay in professional cycling, they need to do some damage control and image building. They've been banned, had well publicized money issues this season, finally allowed to enter the TdF, win the TdF and the team is still a spectacle thanks to the whole JB/LA/AC situation. Now JB and LA jettison probably with a good portion of the team. Not to mention sponsor dollars.
In theory, Astana should be in control. But this team is a circus with no ring leader. We've all seen star atheletes force their way out of situations that they didn't want to be in. Take David Beckham this past year in the soccer. I'll believe AC is riding for Astana next season when he says that he is.
BTW...I'm not saying AC is pouting, or suggesting anything about AC other than contractually he is stuck and I will refrain from the petty personal attacks that seem to be aplenty on the professional forum.
Your example is fine except that it applies to a situation where the player has multiple years left on the deal. There is a difference when the player is going into the final year of the contract. When there are multiple years, a player sitting out won't do any good because he still going to have to come back the next year. But when he's going into the final year, its a different story. If the team is certain that the player won't re-sign with them, they are better off working a deal that best suits the team. Like posturing to get a high buyout from a team that wants to sign AC.
Astana could be stubborn and try to insist that AC rides for them next season. But that would probably work against them in the long run. If Astana wants to stay in professional cycling, they need to do some damage control and image building. They've been banned, had well publicized money issues this season, finally allowed to enter the TdF, win the TdF and the team is still a spectacle thanks to the whole JB/LA/AC situation. Now JB and LA jettison probably with a good portion of the team. Not to mention sponsor dollars.
In theory, Astana should be in control. But this team is a circus with no ring leader. We've all seen star atheletes force their way out of situations that they didn't want to be in. Take David Beckham this past year in the soccer. I'll believe AC is riding for Astana next season when he says that he is.
bellweatherman
08-24-09, 02:42 AM
AC has ways to get out of the contract. For one, Astana has already violated terms of the contract when they didn't pay rider salaries for like 6 months. maybe a lawyer can use this as the basis by which Contador can leave Astana.
rogwilco
08-24-09, 04:27 AM
BAD NEWS FOR AC. He is basically a puppet with no options if he's under contract. And with Vino coming back, Astana might not even get invited...or worse...vino tests positive for doping again and astana gets kicked out of the tour any way. Regardless, AC will be carrying a much bigger burden with Astana, so I don't see him getting a podium next TDF.
Well, that happens to athletes who commit to long-term contracts; they have job security, but they lose some freedom. Astana better pay his salary though, or he'll be gone fast than they can say "Vino rules".
Well, that happens to athletes who commit to long-term contracts; they have job security, but they lose some freedom. Astana better pay his salary though, or he'll be gone fast than they can say "Vino rules".
ajwray
08-24-09, 05:15 AM
Astana better pay his salary though, or he'll be gone fast than they can say "Vino rules".
And there we have the summation of the situatioin in a nutshell.....
And there we have the summation of the situatioin in a nutshell.....
ajwray
08-24-09, 05:25 AM
Take David Beckham this past year in the soccer.
Remind me where Beckham is playing football right now because he has a contract? He played in Italy on a loan which is very common in the world of football. It is rumored that he has an out clause in his contract but has not exercised it yet. I have not seen one story like that with AC.
The topic says AC will stay with Astana, not ride. Again, until Astana breaches they will decide what AC does next year and for whom, IMHO.
Remind me where Beckham is playing football right now because he has a contract? He played in Italy on a loan which is very common in the world of football. It is rumored that he has an out clause in his contract but has not exercised it yet. I have not seen one story like that with AC.
The topic says AC will stay with Astana, not ride. Again, until Astana breaches they will decide what AC does next year and for whom, IMHO.
DenisMenchov
08-24-09, 06:34 AM
AC does have cards to play.
Actually, him sitting out the year does hurt Astana. They lose sponsorships and races. Then he walks and they get nothing out of it. It hurts AC, but riding for Astana may hurt him anyways depending on how the team sets up. Or he could pull the disgruntled player card and half-ass it through out the season. Then Astana pays him basically for nothing.
Professional Cycling is no different from any other professional sport when it comes down to player/team negotiations. The idea that a star player under contract doesn't have any cards to play shows an ignorance of professional sports over the past 20 years. Contracts get ripped up and re-written all the time. Until AC says that he's riding for Astana next year, its still up in the air. He very well may be waiting to see who's going to be on the Astana roster before he makes a statement. If he thinks the team is strong enough and you take away the LA/JB drama, he might decide to ride out another year.
Good point, and basically summarized how AC is in a lose lose situation. AC doesn't have a choice though if he is under contract. And unless we find out what the fine print in the contract is, I'm sure AC will have to race if Astana keeps him. If he races with Astana and wins, then who knows. But you never know, AC's training regimen under Bruyneel may be compromised under new management. He won't get better without Bruyneel, it's just a matter how of how bad he gets once Bruyneel is on "The Shack." - and if he will get bad enough to lose. I get the feeling AC will find that he was actually very fortunate under Bruyneel in the '09 tour...and there is a reason why Lance will only race under Bruyneel.
Actually, him sitting out the year does hurt Astana. They lose sponsorships and races. Then he walks and they get nothing out of it. It hurts AC, but riding for Astana may hurt him anyways depending on how the team sets up. Or he could pull the disgruntled player card and half-ass it through out the season. Then Astana pays him basically for nothing.
Professional Cycling is no different from any other professional sport when it comes down to player/team negotiations. The idea that a star player under contract doesn't have any cards to play shows an ignorance of professional sports over the past 20 years. Contracts get ripped up and re-written all the time. Until AC says that he's riding for Astana next year, its still up in the air. He very well may be waiting to see who's going to be on the Astana roster before he makes a statement. If he thinks the team is strong enough and you take away the LA/JB drama, he might decide to ride out another year.
Good point, and basically summarized how AC is in a lose lose situation. AC doesn't have a choice though if he is under contract. And unless we find out what the fine print in the contract is, I'm sure AC will have to race if Astana keeps him. If he races with Astana and wins, then who knows. But you never know, AC's training regimen under Bruyneel may be compromised under new management. He won't get better without Bruyneel, it's just a matter how of how bad he gets once Bruyneel is on "The Shack." - and if he will get bad enough to lose. I get the feeling AC will find that he was actually very fortunate under Bruyneel in the '09 tour...and there is a reason why Lance will only race under Bruyneel.
OrionKhan
08-24-09, 06:12 PM
The topic says AC will stay with Astana, not ride. Again, until Astana breaches they will decide what AC does next year and for whom, IMHO.
As for the breach issue, none of us know the terms of the contract.
Yes, this is correct. But AC will have some say in the matter. Sure, technically if Astana takes a buyout from another team and "let's" AC out of his deal, they are "in control." But realistically, AC does have some cards to play. Both sides have some leverage. Astana is not going to release AC for nothing. That would be stupid. I would expect Astana to come out and say exactly what they did. To paraphrase, "we are thrilled to have Contador on our team and fully expect him back next season. We have no idea where these rumors are coming from."
It comes down to this....The only card Astana has is that they can say "no you have to ride for us." AC can say, "fine" and then throw out a half assed effort. Maybe even get "injured." Not saying its right, but stranger things have happened to star players. No way will Astana be able to prove that AC is "jaking" it out there. So they end up paying AC for nothing and AC walks at the end of the season. So, that leaves us with Astana allowing a team to buyout the last year of the deal. Astana makes public statements that they really want to keep AC. Any team that wants AC knows that they need to make a serious offer because AC isn't going to be released for free. Astana gets paid, AC gets to go. Sure technically Astana is making the "decision", but AC's actions and what he says definitely will influence that "decision".
Still a ways to go, though. Depending on how the team is shaping up, who the new director will be, and who else will be brought in, AC may be okay with staying with Astana next year. I could be a non-issue.
As for the breach issue, none of us know the terms of the contract.
Yes, this is correct. But AC will have some say in the matter. Sure, technically if Astana takes a buyout from another team and "let's" AC out of his deal, they are "in control." But realistically, AC does have some cards to play. Both sides have some leverage. Astana is not going to release AC for nothing. That would be stupid. I would expect Astana to come out and say exactly what they did. To paraphrase, "we are thrilled to have Contador on our team and fully expect him back next season. We have no idea where these rumors are coming from."
It comes down to this....The only card Astana has is that they can say "no you have to ride for us." AC can say, "fine" and then throw out a half assed effort. Maybe even get "injured." Not saying its right, but stranger things have happened to star players. No way will Astana be able to prove that AC is "jaking" it out there. So they end up paying AC for nothing and AC walks at the end of the season. So, that leaves us with Astana allowing a team to buyout the last year of the deal. Astana makes public statements that they really want to keep AC. Any team that wants AC knows that they need to make a serious offer because AC isn't going to be released for free. Astana gets paid, AC gets to go. Sure technically Astana is making the "decision", but AC's actions and what he says definitely will influence that "decision".
Still a ways to go, though. Depending on how the team is shaping up, who the new director will be, and who else will be brought in, AC may be okay with staying with Astana next year. I could be a non-issue.
bigfred
08-24-09, 09:41 PM
What are Astana's chances of getting invited to any major races with Vino as their leader? How are those chances altered if Alberto is still on the team?
What is the buyout value of Alberto's contract if Astana declare,"We don't want the guy. Someone make an offer. Any offer."? How is that value effected if Astana declare, "We are looking forward to having Alberto on the team next year."? Alberto's value doesn't change, but the value of the contract that Astana holds sure does.
What does the future hold for Astana if they release or sell Alberto for no to little compensation?
It's press leaks during the silly season of a proffessional sport. I can't believe how some of you read these things. When you see that a team member at the very lest signed a lease on some property and has unpacked his bags, you can start to believe that there is some fact to the statements.
What is the buyout value of Alberto's contract if Astana declare,"We don't want the guy. Someone make an offer. Any offer."? How is that value effected if Astana declare, "We are looking forward to having Alberto on the team next year."? Alberto's value doesn't change, but the value of the contract that Astana holds sure does.
What does the future hold for Astana if they release or sell Alberto for no to little compensation?
It's press leaks during the silly season of a proffessional sport. I can't believe how some of you read these things. When you see that a team member at the very lest signed a lease on some property and has unpacked his bags, you can start to believe that there is some fact to the statements.
OrionKhan
08-24-09, 09:44 PM
What are Astana's chances of getting invited to any major races with Vino as their leader? How are those chances altered if Alberto is still on the team?
What is the buyout value of Alberto's contract if Astana declare,"We don't want the guy. Someone make an offer. Any offer."? How is that value effected if Astana declare, "We are looking forward to having Alberto on the team next year."? Alberto's value doesn't change, but the value of the contract that Astana holds sure does.
What does the future hold for Astana if they release or sell Alberto for no to little compensation?
It's press leaks during the silly season of a proffessional sport. I can't believe how some of you read these things. When you see that a team member at the very lest signed a lease on some property and has unpacked his bags, you can start to believe that there is some fact to the statements.
Well said.
What is the buyout value of Alberto's contract if Astana declare,"We don't want the guy. Someone make an offer. Any offer."? How is that value effected if Astana declare, "We are looking forward to having Alberto on the team next year."? Alberto's value doesn't change, but the value of the contract that Astana holds sure does.
What does the future hold for Astana if they release or sell Alberto for no to little compensation?
It's press leaks during the silly season of a proffessional sport. I can't believe how some of you read these things. When you see that a team member at the very lest signed a lease on some property and has unpacked his bags, you can start to believe that there is some fact to the statements.
Well said.
flyingheel
08-25-09, 04:10 PM
How are those chances altered if Alberto is still on the team?
I don't think Alberto will make any difference on the team's reputation now that Vino is back. It didn't make any difference to the Amaury organization when he was the defending champion and Vino WASN'T on the team. It will be interesting to see where Amaury puts the line in the sand for 2010 and if other Grand Tours, then smaller races follow suit.
I believe that Astana is trying to raise the bids for AC, but unfortunately I think they are overreaching in the current economic climate. For a team to get AC at this point, not only would they have to pay AC his sizable worth (which is significantly more than he is making now), but they would also have to reach the pay off to the Astana team, which I am sure is hoping to make windfall on him. Most teams already have dedicated leaders making significant moneys on their teams and for them to have an extra 3-5 million in the first year for salary and payoff to Astana in addition to the extra 1-2 million AC would be expected to make on a multi year deal is something most teams, if not all, be able to consider.
I don't think Alberto will make any difference on the team's reputation now that Vino is back. It didn't make any difference to the Amaury organization when he was the defending champion and Vino WASN'T on the team. It will be interesting to see where Amaury puts the line in the sand for 2010 and if other Grand Tours, then smaller races follow suit.
I believe that Astana is trying to raise the bids for AC, but unfortunately I think they are overreaching in the current economic climate. For a team to get AC at this point, not only would they have to pay AC his sizable worth (which is significantly more than he is making now), but they would also have to reach the pay off to the Astana team, which I am sure is hoping to make windfall on him. Most teams already have dedicated leaders making significant moneys on their teams and for them to have an extra 3-5 million in the first year for salary and payoff to Astana in addition to the extra 1-2 million AC would be expected to make on a multi year deal is something most teams, if not all, be able to consider.
txvintage
08-25-09, 04:29 PM
All of you do realize if AC sits out then he is in breach of his contract and Astana is entitled to compensation. That would most likely be that AC is not free to sign with any other team until he has met his contractual obligation to Astana. Most likely in 2011, providing Astana doesn't implode before then.
OrionKhan
08-26-09, 12:40 AM
All of you do realize if AC sits out then he is in breach of his contract and Astana is entitled to compensation. That would most likely be that AC is not free to sign with any other team until he has met his contractual obligation to Astana. Most likely in 2011, providing Astana doesn't implode before then.
Where are you getting that from? Have you read the contract? Astana is entitled to compensation if they have paid for something they didn't receive. If he doesn't ride, Astana doesn't pay him. Unless he's been paid all of his money up front (highly unlikely). If anything AC might have to pay a pro rated portion of a signing bonus or something to that effect. Astana could try and force him to ride, but that doesn't mean AC has to ride well. Then Astana is on the hook to pay him. Unless they can prove that he's dogging it on purpose. Highly unlikely.
This is professional sports after all. Contracts are generally good for as long as both sides are happy.
Where are you getting that from? Have you read the contract? Astana is entitled to compensation if they have paid for something they didn't receive. If he doesn't ride, Astana doesn't pay him. Unless he's been paid all of his money up front (highly unlikely). If anything AC might have to pay a pro rated portion of a signing bonus or something to that effect. Astana could try and force him to ride, but that doesn't mean AC has to ride well. Then Astana is on the hook to pay him. Unless they can prove that he's dogging it on purpose. Highly unlikely.
This is professional sports after all. Contracts are generally good for as long as both sides are happy.
unterhausen
08-26-09, 09:09 AM
Doesn't the UCI have rules about teams having enough reserves to pay their riders? I would hope they take a very skeptical view of any assertions that Astana has those reserves. It seems to me that the UCI should look very hard at Astana's antics this season and question the viability of the team.
Mash Master
08-27-09, 10:13 PM
AC doesn't need a team. He showed that so who cares?
luxroadie
08-28-09, 06:17 AM
AC doesn't need a team. He showed that so who cares?
Incorrect (I wanted to sound like BottO).
But he does need a team in the event a TTT is included in a grand tour - look at Evans - he was done before he had a chance as "HE" and his team lost three minutes in one early stage.
And there have been few riders good enough to ride alone - that is why (shameless plug) Charly Gaul was amazing. He rode for Lux (national not commercial teams then) and still managed to put 20 minutes into folks in the mountains.
Even Merckx had a good team to support him.
Incorrect (I wanted to sound like BottO).
But he does need a team in the event a TTT is included in a grand tour - look at Evans - he was done before he had a chance as "HE" and his team lost three minutes in one early stage.
And there have been few riders good enough to ride alone - that is why (shameless plug) Charly Gaul was amazing. He rode for Lux (national not commercial teams then) and still managed to put 20 minutes into folks in the mountains.
Even Merckx had a good team to support him.
lotek
08-28-09, 11:11 AM
ah, the Angel of the Mountains one of my favourite all time riders.
marty
marty