Classic & Vintage - I was NOT expecting this. (Early, early, early Record FD pictures)

I just got around to thumbing through the box of parts for the '72 Paramount, and unearthed this unlikely (for a '72, anyway) gem out of the box - one pre-1963, second generation Record front derailer:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/record_FD_firstgen_1.jpg

http://www.jaysmarine.com/record_FD_firstgen_2.jpg

Bronze parallelogram arms and all:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/record_FD_firstgen_3.jpg

-Kurt

Ok, pardon my ignorance but could you point out the differences between this one and a newer one? Maybe put little arrows on the picture? :)

sweet! I love old boxes of parts. You know that someone upgraded to the derailleur with the circlip and chucked this one into a box...where it sat until you cleaned it up. That is one of the coolest parts of the whole vintage scene.

Very nice find, Kurt.It's a great feeling when you rediscover a valuable vintage item. I think you may have started a great thread here. One of my moments of serendipity happened when I bought a vintage Allegro and later ID'ed the crankset.




115327

Ok, pardon my ignorance but could you point out the differences between this one and a newer one? Maybe put little arrows on the picture? :)

Earliest Record FD's have the cast-in cable stop in the body, which should be easily apparent.

That said, the very first FD's, according to Velobase, have a screw holding the outer pivot arm on. Models following have the pressed-in cylinder, as with this example, and a later revision in 1963 added a slot to the cable stop hole.

This design then lost its cast-in cable stop alongside the introduction of Nuovo Record in 1967; the aluminum body was also restyled/shaped (thinned?) just a bit in comparison to the originals:

http://velobase.com/CompImages/FDerailleur/BE597DA5-2F40-4A86-8EBC-D06351E6D38C.jpeg
http://velobase.com/ViewSingleComponent.aspx?ID=7872e656-467e-4e21-83cf-e14c89053ed7

The revised version ran until 1972 until a revision in the body added a round protrusion at the front, and the circlip that Luker references to (follow the protrusion to the back end of the arm - you'll see the circlip peeking out just a bit):

http://velobase.com/CompImages/FDerailleur/83DF5E07-B9C6-4411-8484-FA54B970A04B.jpeg
http://velobase.com/ViewSingleComponent.aspx?ID=8d879596-dd45-4568-9ab4-4f0451ba4bd1


sweet! I love old boxes of parts. You know that someone upgraded to the derailleur with the circlip and chucked this one into a box...

Not exactly. Apparently, this FD was what was being used on it prior to my purchasing it. The only hypothesis that I can think of is that the original Nuovo Record FD failed, and was replaced - for one reason or another - with this already 10+ year-old Record FD. Perhaps it was convenient left-over shop stock, maybe it was the only thing available, or it could have been a replacement that the shop ordered - with the old stock sent in place of the proper NR piece (the ethics can be debated, of course - I dare say only a weight weenie back then would have complained over the heavier FD).

-Kurt

I bid on several of those Record FDs to use on Sporty since it had the built in cable stop--- but always failed. I believe I went as high as $100 once, but my memory is fading on this since it was two years ago. By that time Dr.Deltron had the frame, was completing the clear coats, and was ready to install the FD, so we ended up using the one I had with a bolt on cable stop turned 90 derees in order to make it work. Not the prettiest solution, but it works.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Super%20Sports/FDCromollyDecal.jpg

Is that some kind of replacement arm PB? Looks odd.

Earliest Record FD's have the cast-in cable stop in the body, which should be easily apparent.

That said, the very first FD's, according to Velobase, have a screw holding the outer pivot arm on. Models following have the pressed-in cylinder, as with this example, and a later revision in 1963 added a slot to the cable stop hole.

This design then lost its cast-in cable stop alongside the introduction of Nuovo Record in 1967; the aluminum body was also restyled/shaped (thinned?) just a bit in comparison to the originals:

http://velobase.com/ViewSingleComponent.aspx?ID=7872e656-467e-4e21-83cf-e14c89053ed7

The revised version ran until 1972 until a revision in the body added a round protrusion at the front, and the circlip that Luker references to (follow the protrusion to the back end of the arm - you'll see the circlip peeking out just a bit):

http://velobase.com/ViewSingleComponent.aspx?ID=8d879596-dd45-4568-9ab4-4f0451ba4bd1



Not exactly. Apparently, this FD was what was being used on it prior to my purchasing it. The only hypothesis that I can think of is that the original Nuovo Record FD failed, and was replaced - for one reason or another - with this already 10+ year-old Record FD. Perhaps it was convenient left-over shop stock, maybe it was the only thing available, or it could have been a replacement that the shop ordered - with the old stock sent in place of the proper NR piece (the ethics can be debated, of course - I dare say only a weight weenie back then would have complained over the heavier FD).

-Kurt

-Kurt

Thanks for the schooling :)

I looked at the one on my Bottecchia Gran Turismo and it's the '67 - '71 varient. It's not original, just one I picked up off eBay. Sounds like getting a pre-'67 will be an expensive PITA. Hmmm...my '66 Bottecchia might have to become a '67 :D

Is that some kind of replacement arm PB? Looks odd.

That arm is listed in the Campagnolo catalogs as being used on the Valentino group front derailers.

-Kurt

Hmmm...my '66 Bottecchia might have to become a '67 :D

Try 1968. Give some room for component production, shipment, and installation - and spare supply.

Case in point, my '70 Paramount has a pre-'70 NR RD w/"PATENT," but no date. The '72 has a PATENT-70 NR RD. Granted, the parts had farther to travel and more distributors to go through - which explains the two-year delay on the '72 - but I would expect it to apply to an Italian machine as well.

-Kurt

...could you point out the differences between this one and a newer one?


sweet! You know that someone upgraded to the derailleur with the circlip and chucked this one into a box ... That is one of the coolest parts of the whole vintage scene.

With knowledge and wisdom, it's the same: The more you know, the fewer people there are who can understand what you're talking about. Thank God for the internet.

Despite my vigorous reading about cycle tech and history and my huge amount of time spent playing with bikes, I, for one, am still mostly at the "Oooo, pretty shiny thing!" stage. :)

Now I know that the FD on my '74 PX10 is too early for the bike because it has no circlip.

I posted this before, but this is how we ran the cable housing from a stop on the frame to a NR front without a stop in the 70s; works fine. The ones with the stop have always been hard to find.

FYI, I mounted a few of the FD's into this Record shishkabob of sorts on a wrecked tube as an easy comparison:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/campag_FD_shishkabob_1.jpg

http://www.jaysmarine.com/campag_FD_shishkabob_2.jpg

http://www.jaysmarine.com/campag_FD_shishkabob_3.jpg

I'm missing two of the original Record variants technically. That said, I am also unsure if the 4-hole, early-'78 Super Record FD should be considered here either, for I've heard passing references that it was used in NR as well.

Nevertheless, the above is a pretty decent DIY spotter's guide - 1958-1966 (Record) at top, 1967-1972 second from top, 1973-1977 second from bottom, 1978-1986/7 at the bottom.

On a side note - I was rather surprised to see that the earlier Record body is noticeably bulkier:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/campag_FD_shishkabob_4.jpg

-Kurt

I can't remember which it was at this point but either the c-clip or the protrusion came first... not sure which so there is a variation from 1972 that is pretty rare with only one of those two characteristics. There is also some more variation in the pre-1963 models. For example, below you will see one I had in my possession at one time where the spring actually rests on the lower arm as opposed to the pivot post itself as on your derailleur, Kurt.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/abier622/IMG_0973.jpg

Ah yes, it was the reshaped body and protrusion that came first, then the C-clip.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/abier622/campyfront.jpg

Bike-tech-history-geek-freakout! This is one of the coolest threads I've seen in while.

I'm missing two of the original Record variants technically. That said, I am also unsure if the 4-hole, early-'78 Super Record FD should be considered here either, for I've heard passing references that it was used in NR as well.


I believe that's correct - I would consider the four-holer to be a Record variant and the first "Super Record" front derailleur to be the one with the black-arm. The '79 catalog refers to the 4-hole front derailleur as "Record."

When Campagnolo made running changes, as with the Record fronts, they often didn't have hard-and-fast dates, which is to say I would take that "pre-1963" dating stuff with a grain of salt. It's a very rough estimate, AFAIK. Same is true for the "no Record" hubs. That is a very nice example of the non-slotted cable stop version. Also worth noting that the version with the cable stop really needs a different clamp on BB cable guide from that usually seen - the one with the "tunnel."

I agree, This is one great tread! It's like Bible school for Campagnolo. The old testament. Can someone school us on rear mechanicals next?

There is also some more variation in the pre-1963 models. For example, below you will see one I had in my possession at one time where the spring actually rests on the lower arm as opposed to the pivot post itself as on your derailleur, Kurt.

Interesting - I dare say this one pre-dates the one I have, since the lower pivot post spring mounting seems to have remained with the design into the Nuovo era. I note your spring is essentially the same as mine - the post-'67 springs look slightly different.

-Kurt

I believe that's correct - I would consider the four-holer to be a Record variant and the first "Super Record" front derailleur to be the one with the black-arm. The '79 catalog refers to the 4-hole front derailleur as "Record."

That's good enough for me.

What I find interesting is that it wasn't until the CSPC revision that Campagnolo added the black anodizing (and effectively created an SR-specific FD).


Also worth noting that the version with the cable stop really needs a different clamp on BB cable guide from that usually seen - the one with the "tunnel."

It's the best photo I have of one - the wrong side, no less:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/61paramount_BBshell.jpg

-Kurt

I posted this before, but this is how we ran the cable housing from a stop on the frame to a NR front without a stop in the 70s; works fine. The ones with the stop have always been hard to find.

Ha, that's exacly what I came up with on my updated Competition. I guess it's becaseu I used a vintage brain to figure it out...

Bike-tech-history-geek-freakout! This is one of the coolest threads I've seen in while.

I love Campagnolo ID threads. No matter how much I know about it, something always pops up of which I was unaware.

-Kurt

I believe the cable stop on the Record was because Campagnolo continued to use the bottom bracket quide of the Gran Sport. Looked like this (this one has a pump bracket attached).

This is a great thread!

Didn't we have some discussion a while back that the front derailleur with the CPSC lip but no cutouts initially came with Record until the four hole variant came along and it moved down to Nuovo Gran Sport? Or am I imagining that?

This is a great thread!

Didn't we have some discussion a while back that the front derailleur with the CPSC lip but no cutouts initially came with Record until the four hole variant came along and it moved down to Nuovo Gran Sport? Or am I imagining that?

I believed the lipped no-hole front was the new "Record" and was then pushed down the lineup when the fourh-holer came out, but according to Citoyen du Monde, if I recall correctly, the lipped no-hole Record and lipped no-hole NGS are different (cage finish?). Someone investigated further and opined they're the same. There's no question in my mind that a lipped, no-hole "Record" variant did exist before the introduction of the four-hole version, even if only briefly - or at least a derailleur fitting that description was included as part of the Record and SR groups.
There was also a Nuovo Valentino that factors into the equation somewhere.

Didn't we have some discussion a while back that the front derailleur with the CPSC lip but no cutouts initially came with Record until the four hole variant came along and it moved down to Nuovo Gran Sport? Or am I imagining that?

We did, but we all agreed that there was no absolute proof of such - only hypotheses based on known Campagnolo traits.

-Kurt

We did, but we all agreed that there was no absolute proof of such - only hypotheses based on known Campagnolo traits.

-Kurt

My hypothesis at least wasn't based on "traits" at all, but rather on bikes I've seen that were so equipped.

Funny...as much as I really enjoy this kind of discussion I can't help but think that there are a couple of old retired guys sitting in a cafe in Vicenza sipping capacino right now who know the answers to all of these questions. Unfortunately they probably don't speak english or have computers or hang out on vintage bike forums so their knowledge will die with them and rest of us will keep wondering and speculating. If I ever win the lottery I'm going to spend a few years in Italy and get all of the answers. That will be an interesting thread :D

My hypothesis at least wasn't based on "traits" at all, but rather on bikes I've seen that were so equipped.

That too - period spec'ed equipment. If I recall correctly, we used multiple hypotheses - more then I can remember.


Funny...as much as I really enjoy this kind of discussion I can't help but think that there are a couple of old retired guys sitting in a cafe in Vicenza sipping capacino right now who know the answers to all of these questions.

"We used this, then we used that when we ran out of this. When we ran out of that, we used those, and when we had to fix those in 1978 because of them, we did all sorts of things with these. It doesn't really matter though, does it? This, that, those, and these - they all look similar, don't they? Capish?"

-Kurt

A lot of this is explained at:

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/campag-front-changers.html

the first part on the Gran Sport changers needs a lot more work but the second part on the Record changers is excellent...

A lot of this is explained at:

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/campag-front-changers.html

the first part on the Gran Sport changers needs a lot more work but the second part on the Record changers is excellent...

Great Hilary - thanks!

I personally believe the evidence that there was a lipped, no-hole "Record" front derailleur is quite strong and well beyond mere conjecture.

A lot of this is explained at:

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/campag-front-changers.html

the first part on the Gran Sport changers needs a lot more work but the second part on the Record changers is excellent...

Now that is a site. It should be common knowledge around here.

-Kurt

"We used this, then we used that when we ran out of this. When we ran out of that, we used those, and when we had to fix those in 1978 because of them, we did all sorts of things with these. It doesn't really matter though, does it? This, that, those, and these - they all look similar, don't they? Capish?"

-Kurt

:roflmao2::roflmao2::roflmao2:

I almost spit my coffee out.

I personally believe the evidence that there was a lipped, no-hole "Record" front derailleur is quite strong and well beyond mere conjecture.

Seems familiar to me too...

I personally believe the evidence that there was a lipped, no-hole "Record" front derailleur is quite strong and well beyond mere conjecture.

FYI, one of these examples is on knoregs' 1982 Schwinn Superior, in this thread:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=577378

The Superiors came stock with Nuovo Gran Sport (though the RD has been Nuovo'ed).

-Kurt

A lot of this is explained at:

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/campag-front-changers.html

the first part on the Gran Sport changers needs a lot more work but the second part on the Record changers is excellent...

Very nice. It's been a while since I looked over this site, and it is turning into a huge resource. I'm looking at a narrow-band four hole front...I've never mounted it on anything - why did it only last one year?

I'm looking at a narrow-band four hole front...I've never mounted it on anything - why did it only last one year?

Supposedly, the narrow band didn't hold up too well (read = broke), and the fourth hole sometimes snagged chain pins.

-Kurt