Touring - This may be an off the wall question, but...

How many of you tourers pack a pistol with you? I'd really like to hear the pros & cons...

Touring Somalia?

Pros: none.
Cons: 1. Cannot be used anywhere on earth without attracting more trouble than you already have. 2. The fact that you have it can easily attract trouble where there was none.

Besides, those things are really heavy.

Leaving aside the various hysterical responses to guns from the extremes, the basic issues would seem to be what about touring stimulates the need for a pistol? One could ask the same question about going to track meets, depending on the area of town, or about stuff related to comuting. I hang out on the Framebuilding section. Framebuilding takes me to some dingy will-call pick-ups, and craigslist rendevous. Do I need a pistol for Framebuilding?

My overall answer to that is that there really isn't anything particularly dangerous about touring that I require a pistol for (deep wilderness touring I would like to do aside - riding my bike into Churchill, Manitoba. :)). Touring does have a high uncertainty index for me. I don't usually know where I am eating, sleeping, and only general stuff about my route, I could plan it out more, but I don't feel the need to. But that general worry level isn't really stuff a pistol would handle. There are a few dogs I would like to shoot, but realistically that could get very messy very fast.

But for people who's daily dress code includes a pistol, again, I don't think touring is all that different. Why wouldn't you carry one on tour if you carried one otherwise? There the only additional issues are the relatively minor ones of: 1) Jurisdictions if you are crossing state lines; 2) deployment from a bike; 3) conceiled carry, anything about your gear that would put you into that catagory; 4) And maybe some stuff about being on a bike that might be different, not too sure what that would be but could be shooting while wearing say heavily padded gloves, or when winded...

I suppose there is also another aspect to this, the fun pistol. For some it would be a serious fun thing to have a pistol, probably a .22. Some self-defense potential, though no .45, but mostly a few rabbits for the pot, a little plinking where the terrain allows. Recreational kind of thing, like the threads on carrying a fishing rod, though I asume this isn't the purpose of the OP.

Pros:

you'd probably sleep better at night

Cons:


You'd probably end up in prison if you ever had to use it.
You'd probably end up in prison if the police caught you with it.
You'd probably hate it when climbing hills.
You'd probably hate yourself if it got stolen.

If you don't feel secure touring in a given area without a gun maybe you should reconsider your route.

there are times when i wish i was packing a shotgun only to blow the wheels off off the car 's that run me off the road,(that's a joke btw) no i would never carry a gun of any kind,sooner talk to people or animals that to kill them.

How many of you tourers pack a pistol with you? I'd really like to hear the pros & cons...

Pros- Can't think of any, maybe shooting tin cans on the camp site to relax after a long ride? :lol: (see "Cons")

Cons- I'd end up in prison if it was found in my possession.

(I'm in Europe :))

Pro- You feel safer. Whether you really are or not is a whole other story.

Con- You take a tumble the weapon discharges and blows off a toe or an a** cheek. Funny to read about, sh*tty if it happens to you.

Pro- You feel safer. Whether you really are or not is a whole other story.

Con- You take a tumble the weapon discharges and blows off a toe or an a** cheek. Funny to read about, sh*tty if it happens to you.
Happened to one of our very own......
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=428714

My 85 year old mother in law often mentions that she wishes that I would take some "protection" with me. I chuckel to myself and rember those Navy Drs. speaches about "protection"

I think a high powered brain is way more effective than a high powered gun. I think everyone should carry one on a tour.

i think a high powered brain is way more effective than a high powered gun. I think everyone should carry one on a tour.

+1

I think touring is about using your senses, learning how to evauate a situation quickly, listening to your gut feeling about someone ect... A gun would only blurr all that. Just get some Street Smarts.

Happened to one of our very own......
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=428714

Wow. I'll take quick wits and street smarts over guns any day.

The last time this question came up here this is how I answered:


The only weapon I have taken on bike tours around the world by myself is my positive attitude about people. Strangers have consistently responded to and reinforced this attitude by their kindness and thoughtfulness to a stranger in their midst. In many languages the word for enemy is the same as that for stranger historically. The benign and familiar nature of the bike is non-threatening to most people. The bike is my communication bridge.......

In case you think that I live in some fantasy world that is fact free I offer the following: I am a retired peace officer well versed in guns and weapons for my whole life. Guns only provide the illusion that one controls a situation and hides ones fear behind the gun. On tour I leave my car and my gun at home. A gun is unnecessary and actually detrimental to the best touring experiences in my opinion.

I think this can be a difficult topic to discuss. It is also difficult to find relevant, unbiased data on which to make a risk assessment. A lot of one's perception of the need to defend themselves with a gun is based on a person's experiences and influences.

In my personal 61 years of international travel I have never felt the need to defend myself with a gun.

In California, it is legal to carry a hand gun out-of-sight if it is locked up and separate from its ammunition. Surprisingly, you can also legally carry a hand gun in full view as long as it is unloaded although this would probably attract a lot of unwanted attention. When you establish a campsite the gun can then be assembled and loaded inside your tent (or hotel room) for your protection. (Note that carrying a gun is most National Parks in prohibited.) This sounds legally simple but if you invoke the firearm there is a heavy legal burden to justify that it was necessary.

The upfront question is "under what conceivable circumstances would the positives of doing this outweigh the negatives?"

Some things to consider are: What are the odds you will really need a gun vs the odds that you use the gun by mistake? Are you trained to use it effectively (not just thinking about how good at target practice)? Are you really under threat or is it some friend or lost soul stumbling into camp late at night? Have you ever assessed a situation to be different from what it really is? If you wrongly assess a situation when you are armed the consequences could be disastrous. Will you have the presence of mind to exhaust all alternatives before invoking a firearm? What did your intuition say about being there in the first place? Will possessing a loaded gun change your behavior for the better or worse? What are your motives, really?

My opinion is that the negatives of carrying a gun are far greater than the positives unless you are deliberately looking for trouble.

Family members have offered me guns to carry on my upcoming trip- I quickly shot down the idea (...) for the reasons mentioned above. I don't want any legal burdens- I don't want to be approached at night in whatever state by a park ranger or cop and have to explain or hide a handgun from them. I'm not bringing a fishing pole partially for the same reason.

I'm bringing pepper spray, my knife, and a slingshot- and the slingshot only because I found it boxed away with some of my other stuff from my teens. It might help out against aggressive hungry critters or snakes, at worst.

The last time this question came up here this is how I answered:

+1 Well written.

Many passionate responses... and typically, most people have misinterpreted or have made assumptions as to why I asked.

I have no intention of carrying one, myself. I was just curious as to who packs, and why, and their pros & cons. I know lots of people who backpack & carry, so I figured that there may be some who bikepack that do also.

I didn't really count on the anti-gun sentiment, but not all that surprised, either.

End of thread as far as I'm concerned.

I think this can be a difficult topic to discuss. It is also difficult to find relevant, unbiased data on which to make a risk assessment. A lot of one's perception of the need to defend themselves with a gun is based on a person's experiences and influences.

In my personal 61 years of international travel I have never felt the need to defend myself with a gun.

In California, it is legal to carry a hand gun out-of-sight if it is locked up and separate from its ammunition. Surprisingly, you can also legally carry a hand gun in full view as long as it is unloaded although this would probably attract a lot of unwanted attention. When you establish a campsite the gun can then be assembled and loaded inside your tent (or hotel room) for your protection. (Note that carrying a gun is most National Parks in prohibited.) This sounds legally simple but if you invoke the firearm there is a heavy legal burden to justify that it was necessary.

The upfront question is "under what conceivable circumstances would the positives of doing this outweigh the negatives?"

Some things to consider are: What are the odds you will really need a gun vs the odds that you use the gun by mistake? Are you trained to use it effectively (not just thinking about how good at target practice)? Are you really under threat or is it some friend or lost soul stumbling into camp late at night? Have you ever assessed a situation to be different from what it really is? If you wrongly assess a situation when you are armed the consequences could be disastrous. Will you have the presence of mind to exhaust all alternatives before invoking a firearm? What did your intuition say about being there in the first place? Will possessing a loaded gun change your behavior for the better or worse? What are your motives, really?

My opinion is that the negatives of carrying a gun are far greater than the positives unless you are deliberately looking for trouble.

That...is one absolutely amazing post. It indicates a highly evolved mind-set in general. Thank you.

I believe in the whole karma thing - you get what you give. If I give trust and caring, then that's exactly what I get. If I feared enough to bother carrying a gun, people would react with fear - and I might just need that gun! I've toured many thousands of miles through many countries and can't ever think of a situation when a gun would have been necessary! Just trust people and they'll trust you back.

First, let me say that I am a "gun nut"!

Second, I do NOT cary one on a bike tour!

I think the best thing anyone can cary is what's between your ears! It's a bike trip for goodness sakes! If I where that afraid of people in general I wouldn't sleep at night in my own house, much less in a tent! I vote more trouble than it's worth to pack heat!

I didn't really count on the anti-gun sentiment, but not all that surprised, either.

End of thread as far as I'm concerned.

Did you count on the fact that there are many of us from many part of the world, and tour many parts of the world? Part of the world where carrying guns isn't a legal or a desireable thing to do?

My opinion is that the negatives of carrying a gun are far greater than the positives unless you are deliberately looking for trouble.

That's pretty much the bottom line really. While it's legal to carry in many parts of the world, I can't think of too many places where you could actually use it without causing a heap of problems for yourself. That alone probably defeats any purpose that carrying it might serve, so why bother? Besides, if I ever felt like I'd need to carry a gun somewhere, I'd just go touring somewhere else.


Family members have offered me guns to carry on my upcoming trip- I quickly shot down the idea (...)

I'm just blown away by your humour.


Did you count on the fact that there are many of us from many part of the world, and tour many parts of the world? Part of the world where carrying guns isn't a legal or a desireable thing to do?

I think the thing the OP didn't count on was the possibility that people might post different opinions to his, or to the ones he wanted to read. Public Internet fora are like that sometimes.

Arthur Frommer has recently boycotted AZ tourism because of their liberal gun laws. This is in response to the cadre of armed people who showed up at a public civic function in Tempe for the president of the united states, some with assault rifles. The OP is from Tempe.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112156827&ft=1&

I'm from Tucson AZ originally, and grew up seeing people carry in the supermarket, on the streets, in stores, and outside school... I also grew up hunting elk in the mountains. My grandfather was a deputy when he was a younger man, and I still have his police model S&W .38 in storage in AZ.

Now I live in the UK, where guns are more or less illegal. Most police officers here don't have them. If you're interested in the effect that has on the safety of society, please look into the rates of gun crime and murder from guns and compare it to the US numbers. Suffice to say that when I lived in the nation's capitol, Washington DC, many more people were murdered in one month alone from handguns than in the entire united kingdom in a whole year. Gun crime in the UK is so low, that in order to feel as tough as the yanks they boost their numbers by including crimes committed using BB guns.

Im not anti-gun, but if you choose to carry, please understand that this choice serves to create a certain environment for all around you. You may feel safer, but everyone nearby will feel less so. Simply put: I do not fully trust anyone who has a gun, because they could murder me so capriciously. If you're a bike tourer with a gun, I will not get to know you, I will not talk to you, and I will fear you. If you have no gun, I'll probably ask you over to the campsite to share a meal, a smoke or a whiskey.

Depends on what sort of experience you want to have I guess.

I would pack a sawed off shotty (easier to hit target and less aiming under stress)

crime/sh*t happens you can't know when or all us would just avoid it and there would be none...

protect your life and your property

it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

if weight is an issue look at some carbon fiber or aluminium framed pistols... seems to be all the rage among the biking world!!!

plus instead of filling both mags maybe only put half the rounds in each... weight savings there too

All things being equal, there certainly is less gun crime in the UK than the USA per capita. However, that's not the whole story -one question could be does this mean UK criminals turn to alternative methods such as knives? Will a dangerous criminal use a gun in the USA because they have easier access to a gun, whereas the equivalent person in the UK use a knife because they don't have that same access? And of course you have to be careful how you measure statistics to come up valid conclusions.....

Anyway, I don't carry, and don't intend to (I think you'll see why in one moment why I don't think I'm competent enough). One issue with carrying that concerns me is the question of "when?", as in "when" do you get to the point where you believe you need to use it (on the assumption that if you carry, you are prepared to use it).

Maybe I'm naive, but if I did carry, I wouldn't put it anywhere where it may be easily dropped or taken -so perhaps I'd put it at the bottom of my handlebar bag -but not at the top so it couldn't accidentally drop out when I open the bag.

The next thing: a perceived situation where I think I might need it. What could this situation be? Invariably in my life where I have got into trouble, it's been a sudden close quarters kind of thing; I was jumped, or I turned into a quickly changing situation I hadn't seen coming. But where does this leave me? At what point does a situation become threatening enough to justify the use of a weapon? When someone insults me? When someone walks towards me and gets within a metre -or maybe 0.5 metres, or is it less than 0.25 metres? When someone drives too close to me? When someone stops me on a dark road and asks me what time it is? I have to be honest, I'm very vague on this one (again, I may well be too naive, or just -fortunately -haven't been in too many bad situations!)

So.... assuming I can accurately recognize a situation where I do need it (which by the previous paragraph, I think you can see this is a big assumption!) I'm now at the situation where I need to retrieve my weapon..... And I can see myself now -arms flailing with camera, journal, multitool, pens, cereal bars and wallet being tossed into the air as I frantically rummage through the handlebar bag to retrieve it, all the time with the front wheel flopping maniacally from side to side. I manage to get hold of it, say within 1-3 seconds. One problem: how far can someone who is threatening move in 1-3 seconds? And what if there are multiple threats?

It's pretty clear to me, I'm just not going to be competent enough, and would more than likely be creating bigger problems than mitigating them. Granted I do genuinely believe there are situations where carrying would save your life, I'm just far from convinced they would outnumber the situations where carrying might make things worse rather than better, so I'd err on the side of caution. But lest anyone think I'm an anti-gun idealist, let's face it, being brutally honest, I'd much rather be armed in a dark alley when there are 3 large guys brandishing painfully large, blunt, serated bread knives coming towards me saying "We're gonna gut ya fine for that $3.72 change you carryin', fat boy!". Hey, there's no question in my head there, and yes, I could well be over thinking things here a little bit.

However, I haven't taken into account other questions I haven't even addressed such as:
i. does carrying mean that it becomes a viable option more? Is that a good thing? Does it mean I am more likely to engage in riskier behaviour or actions?
ii. am I prepared to kill someone and accept the subsequent emotional/financial/legal issues for the victim and their family, and myself? (and that someone may not be a hardened dangerous criminal if I make a mistake too, and even then, what if was a hardened criminal? Would there be retaliation?)
iii. if I think I need to carry, should I -or do I want to?-be touring there at all?
iv. am I willing to accept the potential legal costs if I carry illegally?
v. where do I store it safely if I choose to go somewhere without it (e.g. at a campsite, I go to the bathroom -do I always take it with me?)

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. I'm just not competent, comfortable or prepared enough to do so.



Now I live in the UK, where guns are more or less illegal. Most police officers here don't have them. If you're interested in the effect that has on the safety of society, please look into the rates of gun crime and murder from guns and compare it to the US numbers. Suffice to say that when I lived in the nation's capitol, Washington DC, many more people were murdered in one month alone from handguns than in the entire united kingdom in a whole year. Gun crime in the UK is so low, that in order to feel as tough as the yanks they boost their numbers by including crimes committed using BB guns.

...I'm from Tucson AZ originally, and grew up seeing people carry in the supermarket, on the streets, in stores, and outside school... I also grew up hunting elk in the mountains. My grandfather was a deputy when he was a younger man, and I still have his police model S&W .38 in storage in AZ...
Im not anti-gun, but if you choose to carry, please understand that this choice serves to create a certain environment for all around you. You may feel safer, but everyone nearby will feel less so. Simply put: I do not fully trust anyone who has a gun, because they could murder me so capriciously. If you're a bike tourer with a gun, I will not get to know you, I will not talk to you, and I will fear you. If you have no gun, I'll probably ask you over to the campsite to share a meal, a smoke or a whiskey...

I had a similar experience growing up. I am also not anti-gun.

One point you make above basically is that in the presence of a gun, peoples' behavior probably will change. When I tour, meeting people is the very best thing about it. I wouldn't want to degrade that experience in any way.

Too bad the OP has chosen to remove himself from the conversation. He/she did ask for the pros and cons. As was said earlier, one's perception of the pros surely varies from person-to-person. Anyone carrying must surely (should I say "most hopefully) have a different calculus of the pros than those that don't. It would be interesting to hear what this was.

I would think that one of the big things to consider here is that a bicycle tourist isn't really the type of character that anyone wants to rob, or do violence to, in general. I've carried guns before, concealed and openly, depending on the situation. But how often does one get into a situation where one has to defend his/her life while on a bike trip? Nobody wants to rob a cyclist. By mere virtue of the fact that you're riding a bicycle, most people assume you have no money or you'd be driving. And it isn't like you'll be doing a lot of intense things on a tour that will incite people to violence. If you feel you need a gun on a bike tour, I'd say that you're just scared to the point of paranoia.

it isn't a matter of who would want to rob a cyclist...

criminals prey on whoever they can...

i believe in self preservation...

i believe in protection of myself my family and property...

the thugs don't mind if they carry a pistol... so lets keep the game even...

you dont bring a tire pump to a gun fight...

personally I have soft spot for Glocks...

All things being equal, there certainly is less gun crime in the UK than the USA per capita. However, that's not the whole story -one question could be does this mean UK criminals turn to alternative methods such as knives? Will a dangerous criminal use a gun in the USA because they have easier access to a gun, whereas the equivalent person in the UK use a knife because they don't have that same access? And of course you have to be careful how you measure statistics to come up valid conclusions.....

Too right, and there are clearly knife crime problems in the UK. Whether these are worse than in the US I dont know... but im not sure it really matters.

I guess I feel that knives are harder to use for violent ends, and therefore provide a different limitation to crime. For example, its pretty tough to kill a man with your bare hands, possible, but tough. Its easier if you have a knife, but you still have to get in close, fighting hand to hand. Easier still is to shoot someone who is standing 5-10-20 feet away, that takes no balls- and therefore happens all too regularly. Stabbing someone... I think that takes some balls (for lack of a better term, sorry ladies) and people will generally think twice before trying it. If they do try it, they might get knocked out, or have their weapon taken and used against them.

In addition, a knife has many uses, unlike a gun: I can cut a cheese or chorizo with one- which I do often, especially on a tour. In a pinch I could use it to defend myself -dual use items belong in my panniers... A gun? it basically has no point, other than some imagined paranoia scenario where i come out blasting and the guys in the black cowboy hats fall into water troughs.

incidentally, you say this:

And of course you have to be careful how you measure statistics to come up valid conclusions.....

which is absolutely correct, but for reference in the UK in 2006-2007 only 59 people died in firearms related homicide. In the US, during 2005-2006, 10,100 people died from firearm homicide. I would say that this is not a trick of the wily statisticians to find significance where none exists...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6960431.stm

Guns may have their place in a free society, but I think that one has to do a cost-benefit analysis of whether it is prudent to have one in a given situation. In my mind, a bike tourist probably has no need for a heavy tool designed to kill, unless that tourist is in a very specific and risky situation.

Did you count on the fact that there are many of us from many part of the world, and tour many parts of the world? Part of the world where carrying guns isn't a legal or a desirable thing to do?

This is one of the reasons that my same-sex partner and I usually camp up in British Columbia.

Several times when camping at US state parks there have been guys drinking too much at other sites. The possibility that some drunken yahoo would decide that "those dykes over there" need to be "taken care of" is real. It HAS happened. The tighter Canadian gun laws make it safer north of the border.

This is one of the reasons that my same-sex partner and I usually camp up in British Columbia.

Several times when camping at US state parks there have been guys drinking too much at other sites. The possibility that some drunken yahoo would decide that "those dykes over there" need to be "taken care of" is real. It HAS happened. The tighter Canadian gun laws make it safer north of the border.

When those old boys say that those dykes need to be "taken care of", I don't think they mean that they need to be shot. I think they mean something else by "taken care of".

it isn't a matter of who would want to rob a cyclist...

criminals prey on whoever they can...

i believe in self preservation...

i believe in protection of myself my family and property...

the thugs don't mind if they carry a pistol... so lets keep the game even...

you dont bring a tire pump to a gun fight...

personally I have soft spot for Glocks...

them "criminals" are out to getcha!

it isn't a matter of who would want to rob a cyclist...

criminals prey on whoever they can...

i believe in self preservation...

i believe in protection of myself my family and property...

the thugs don't mind if they carry a pistol... so lets keep the game even...

you dont bring a tire pump to a gun fight...

personally I have soft spot for Glocks...




This is really a silly argument because most people with a gun think they are John Wayne when in reality if the situation did occure where you had to use a gun against another human being, you'd be instantly out of your league weather your the criminal or the property owner and thats why you shouldn't have one on a tour.

I know lots of people who backpack & carry, so I figured that there may be some who bikepack that do also.


Not the same thing. Backpackers who do have a good specific reason for doing so like backcountry in hardcore grizzly country such as Alaska. And I do not think that is very common anymore. Most bike touring is entirely different.

Actually this topic has been thoroughly discussed before. A search would have answered that.

At first blush I thought this was a troll thread.

[Edit] I should add if have to carry rifle to backpack in a specific area your probably violating "leave no trace ethics."

it isn't a matter of who would want to rob a cyclist...

criminals prey on whoever they can...

i believe in self preservation...

i believe in protection of myself my family and property...

the thugs don't mind if they carry a pistol... so lets keep the game even...

you dont bring a tire pump to a gun fight...

personally I have soft spot for Glocks...

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.cardsquad.com/media/2005/09/yosemite-sam2.gif

(I also grew up with handguns, and am not afraid of them as such. That being said I'm also not afraid to walk around without one......)

I always bring my little LCP in a belly holster on all my rides. It feels like you are wearing a girdle and it gets sweaty, but so does everything else. Just clean the gun often or it will rust from salt exposure.

I used to carry a full-sized pistol when I used to wear shorts with a belt, but that's no longer an option.

You PROBABLY won't need it on any given ride, if ever, but it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it IMHO.

This is really a silly argument because most people with a gun think they are John Wayne when in reality if the situation did occure where you had to use a gun against another human being, you'd be instantly out of your league weather your the criminal or the property owner and thats why you shouldn't have one on a tour.

I find most people who say things like this either don't know many gun owners, or aren't AWARE they know many gun owners IMHO.

I grew up with guns. Lots of them. My father,who was in every way a bada$$ soldier/pilot used to say, "A gun is not a threat, it's a promise." That to carry one, or to pull one is not intended to do anything else but use it, and kill with it.

So, while I keep guns in my home, I would not carry one on tour, or to the grocery store.

Depends on where I am going. I am retired from the army infantry, many combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, and one thing I did learn...is that a pistol is suprisingly non effective for people. Unless it is something heavy like a 45 or a 357 It takes a lot of bullets to take down someone who is hyped up on drugs or something, enough that they can get you before you can put them down. Good luck taking someone down with a 9 mil if they are on meth, which if you run into trouble on the road, most likely they will be on something.
Another thing to remember...unless you are a really good shot you are not going to hit someone if they are more than 15 feet away when you are scared, most likely shaking, heart racing, etc.
If you want a weapon for touring, pepper spray and a telescoping baton are the ways to go..wont go to jail over that stuff.
If I am going to a place where I will be in deep wilderness, I often do carry one, mainly for the off chance I come up on someone's pot farm or meth lab and they come after me (it does happen especially in far northern California and Oregon), but that is mainly for backpacking, not bike touring. However I have also used guns on people before and know exactly what real use one would be, and what a pistol's limitations are, and they are many. I doubt anyone would want to strap a deer rifle to the top tube of their bikes.
You usually are in public enough places that a gun would not be needed on a bike. I most certainly would never take one in another country (ever seen "locked up abroad")?

Now a Taser, that might be a viable thing to have along

What is it with BF and gun threads? I always LOL at the ignorance.

How is it that an inanimate object is going to cause trouble? The saying is true, guns don't kill people, people kill people.
And they not only do it with guns, but knives, cars, batons, etc. etc.

The only dangerous thing about a pistol is the safety. When the time truly comes that you need to use it, the last thing you want is to be unable to get a shot off in time. So don't buy a pistol with a safety.

I was involved in a drive-by shooting and was unable to defend myself as I was in, you guessed it District of Columbia, where only criminals are allowed guns.

What is it with BF and gun threads? I always LOL at the ignorance.

How is it that an inanimate object is going to cause trouble? The saying is true, guns don't kill people, people kill people.
And they not only do it with guns, but knives, cars, batons, etc. etc.

The only dangerous thing about a pistol is the safety. When the time truly comes that you need to use it, the last thing you want is to be unable to get a shot off in time. So don't buy a pistol with a safety.

I was involved in a drive-by shooting and was unable to defend myself as I was in, you guessed it District of Columbia, where only criminals are allowed guns.

Have to say this is true.
A gun is simply a tool, just like a hammer or a knife, and really is no more dangerous...when handled by people who know what they are doing...for people who don't know what they are doing, there is little more dangerous than a loaded weapon. Ever wonder how you can have thousands and thousands of people wandering around war zones are rarely have negligent accidents when you hear about hunting accidents all the time? Has a lot to do with training, and state of mind.

What is it with BF and gun threads? I always LOL at the ignorance

can you provide an example? or is this a straw-man argument?


Oh, and somehow, despite you being gunless, you didn't get shot in DC.... so that argument fails to prove why you would have been better had you shot back.

Well, positron I didn't say anything about shooting back, now did I?
The implication is that the gang-bangers decided that they could shoot innocent people with impunity. Which, in the Disctrict of Columbia is certainly the case as there are no armed civilians.

":I was involved in a drive-by shooting and was unable to defend myself as I was in, you guessed it District of Columbia, where only criminals are allowed guns."
You are demonstrably ignorant if you read the above and then typed:
" despite you being gunless, you didn't get shot in DC"

By the way, there have been multiple cases brought to the US Supreme Court in which it has been ruled that the police 'have no affirmative duty' to protect us as individuals, only to provide safety in general.
Now I know in the UK you trust that all the big brother cameras are keeping everyone safe. Well, best check the statistics on that, too, my friend.

If we are going to leave inanimate objects at home that could be dangerous, then by all means try a tour with no knife, matches, fishing line, razors or nail clippers. Let me know how that goes, OK?

In an attempt to answer the OP's question, I would certainly consider a .38 with shotshells due to the venomous snakes in your part of the world.

We ALL are going to die. If you want to increase your odds of dieing from a bullet then you should carry a gun.

We ALL are going to die. If you want to increase your odds of dieing from a bullet then you should carry a gun.

Wow you must write the Army right away! Tell them if only the soldiers would just get rid of their guns, they no longer would get shot! Brilliant!

Two words. Plaxico Burress.

Locked per OP request