Road Cycling - Steel, Carbon, Aluminium or Titanium Frame??

Howdy All,

I'm just getting back into cycling after a long layoff (10 years) and am looking to pick up a new steed but I'm confused by the variety of options available, particularly in regards to frame composition. When I was last riding (late 80's, early 90's) frame materials were dominanted by steel. Aluminium was growing in popularity but carbon and titanium were considered exotic and were EXPENSIVE! Carbon was a bit hit and miss as the models around this time had a tendency to become unglued. Even alluminium frames left alot to be desired, Andy Hampsten once said the only thing scarier than descending on his was climbing without it.

Now it seems things have changed quite considerably with all frame materials well proven and relatively reasonably priced (though titanium is still out there).

So the big question is which one to choose? I know this depends on a lot of factors, however hopefully I can narrow down the field by providing some details of what I'm after.

1) Relatively light as the area I live in is hilly
2) Strong to hold a 6'2" 220lb behemouth of a man
3) Easy on the arse (ie. smooth ride)
4) Stiff so that the power I put down goes to the road
5) Price wise, I would be looking at a frame costing no more than $1200

So can anybody give me a suggestion as to which material and an example of a particular frame that might suit my needs? Your experiences in using different frame materials and any suggestions you give me will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers all :)

If your 1200 is USD you are looking at steel or aluminum. I'm guessing you are not interested in actual racing where carbon and titanium would (might) pay off. If I were in your shoes I go w/ steel. Its a comfortable ride, which is something I require at my age. Although I do ride an aluminum bike with carbon bits here and there.

Best thing for yo to do is to get to a local bike store and test ride everything they have. Test rides are the only way to decide what is best for you.

Hope this helps,

ehenz

Thanks ehenz.

Unfortunately test riding in Hong Kong is difficult as the few decent bike shops that are here are in the urban area. A ride around them would be suicidal due to the traffic, both pedestrian and vehicle :-)

As such I'll probably have to buy online. I also don't mind buying a good second hand frame. And yes its US$1,200

it is possible to get a quality Titanium frame for less the $1200.00 new, even a custom for less.

This company has a good reputation:

www.habcycles.com

The most important thing if your buying via mail is that you use the internet resources available to get fit correctly first. A company like Habanero will work with you to make sure you get sized correctly.

Cheers! :)

Thanks don I'll definately check that out.

How does Titanium compare to steel in terms of weight and ride characteristics?

Thanks don I'll definately check that out.

How does Titanium compare to steel in terms of weight and ride characteristics?

This is the kind of question that causes many enthusiasts to close there eyes and open their mouths ;) , but I will try to answer objectively in 25 words or less.

If both frames are well built and designed with exactly the same geometry for exactly the same purpose, the Ti bike should, in the laboratory, be a more comfortable riding bike, should be somewhat lighter, and should be somewhat more resistant to catastrophic failure.

This is because, in the laboratory, Titanium has better shock absorbtion characteristics than steel, a higher strength to weight ratio than steel, and higher fatique limits than steel.

Titanium also tends to flex more than steel, which is where it's comfort comes from, but if a Ti frame is designed correctly, with oversize tube diameters and thicker tube walls, it will not flex more than steel, will still weigh slightly less, and will still be more comfortable. Because it has a higher fatique limit than steel, the "modulus elasticity"(flex) characteristics of titanium are not a negative.

Ok, that's more than 25 words. :)

Steel vs. Ti, according to the info I pulled out of my sphincter just now:

I hear that ti rides similar to steel but is even more "lively," meaning that it tends to be springy and react to your movements. Its weight is similar to aluminum, maybe less. And it never corrodes, so maintenance is nil and it could be the last frame you ever have to buy.

Drawbacks include price, but you probably already knew that. Ti is difficult to work with. A contaminated weld could spell distaster for frame and rider! Ti doesn't play well with other metals, either. Whoever assembles it will need to use anti-seize on the BB, brake caliper studs, and anything else that bolts or clamps to the frame, even seat post.

Keep in mind that steel seems to be making a comeback. New alloys are lighter and stronger than ever. Steel is real! And yes, I'm biased ;)

A year ago, I got back into cycling after 13 years off the bike and asked the same questions you ask now. I ended up with a carbon Trek 5500 because I couldn't pass on the deal. Simple as that. After a couple of months, I wanted a second, less perfect bike to tinker around with. So I bought a late model steel frame (Lemond Maillot Jaune) and built it up. Steel really has come a long way since the late 80's in terms of response and weight.

I love both bikes very very much. But if somebody held a gun to my head and said pick one, I'd keep the steelie.

55/Rad

Good article that I got from someone on this forum...

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

i'd go with the hab frame. no need for rust worry. just make sure the accomodate yer weight. you'll be cool with a ti bike too!

man.. why is that fram so cheap? it's only like $100 more than an 853 steel soma frame... are they really all that?

Titanium also tends to flex more than steel, which is where it's comfort comes from, but if a Ti frame is designed correctly, with oversize tube diameters and thicker tube walls, it will not flex more than steel, will still weigh slightly less, and will still be more comfortable. Because it has a higher fatique limit than steel, the "modulus elasticity"(flex) characteristics of titanium are not a negative.

Ok, that's more than 25 words. :)

If Ti doesn't flex more than steel, how can it be more comfortable? You also stated that Ti is more comfortable as a result of the greater flexing.

This is a contridiction.

I happen to believe that TI does not flex more than Chromoly 4130 resulting in a more uncomfortable ride. You buy Ti for other reasons than comfort. The racers would never buy a frame that would flex like steel bike with 4130.

I test rode a Habanero at Harris Cyclery. It was a classic Ti ride, updated a little. The ride was the smoothest I have ever seen.
Yet it was beefy enough that it wasn't slow or wimpy. My only negative point is that it will cost a lot more than the $1200 budget you have. You might be better off looking at a steel bike, like an Eros, a Quest, or perhaps an Allez Steel.

If Ti doesn't flex more than steel, how can it be more comfortable?
Your absolutely right. If a Ti frame were designed to have exactly the same flex characteristics as a steel frame, how could it be more comfortable?

The measurement for flex or elasticity is called Young's Modulus. Without going into a severly technical discussion, the Young's modulus for steel is ~30 million lbs per sq. in. and for 3/2.5 Ti ~ 15 million lbs per sq. in.. The lower the number, the more flex. Since these numbers are for tubes of the same size and wall thickness, similar size tubes will flex more if they are made of Ti. Ergo, if you make the Ti tubes larger in dia. or with thicker tube walls, you can bring the Ti tubes up to the same Young's modulus as a smaller dia. or thinner guage steel tube.

Specially shaped tubes can be used to bring stiffness to a frame in the areas most desired and flex where comfort is most desired. However, most builders tend to compromise on this since one of the desirable qualities of Ti is it's natural shock absorbing quality.

My 6/4 Ti Colnago Ovalmaster is very shock absorbing even though it has obscenely oversize tubing designed to minimize lateral flex. I can't explain how, but it is laterally stiffer than any steel frame I've ever ridden and more comfortable at the same time. Go Figure. :)

I have to figure that the Young's modulus of the Ti material combines with the tube shapes accomplish this.

My 3/2.5 Ti TST frame is much more shock absorbing(flexible) than my Colnago, but very similar in feel to a retro Columbus SL cromoly steel tube frame. It also uses oversize tubing, more along the lines of the Habanero.



I happen to believe that TI does not flex more than Chromoly 4130 resulting in a more uncomfortable ride. You buy Ti for other reasons than comfort. The racers would never buy a frame that would flex like steel bike with 4130.

You're right, there are many reasons to buy Ti other than comfort. But with regards to comfort, all I can say is get a Ti frame and ride it for mile after mile and then perhaps you'll feel differently. Perhaps a careful read of the info provided above at Sheldon Brown's site may provide clearer info. :)

I test rode a Habanero at Harris Cyclery. It was a classic Ti ride, updated a little. The ride was the smoothest I have ever seen.
Yet it was beefy enough that it wasn't slow or wimpy. My only negative point is that it will cost a lot more than the $1200 budget you have. You might be better off looking at a steel bike, like an Eros, a Quest, or perhaps an Allez Steel.


the frame is like $649 for a TI frame. best deal imaginable. if it rides good as this guy said i'd just go get the damn thing. it will last forever, once you update it will make an exellent beater (no corrosion!)

but why no ti fork?

I definitely like the feel of Ti, but I doubt I'd buy a 1200 buck Ti frame, unless Matt Chester decided to get into the road scene ( highly unlikely ). Otherwise you're looking at Pacific Rim or Russian built Ti, and those bikes don't have the design or engineering experience of the US builders in my mind.

I have owned a couple of Ti bikes both road and mountain, and ridden a handful of other Ti frames, and I wouldn't say Ti was more flexible. I'd actually say that it appears to maybe oscillate at a lower frequency than steel - one that is more easily damped by your body and thus 'feels' flexier or more complaint/comfortable whatever. If you built a steel bike and a Titanium bike to exhibit the same mechanical properties, I think the Ti frame would still 'appear' softer or more compliant.

Do you think that's what you're experiencing on your Colnago, Don?

Anyway, with 1200 bucks to spend on a frame, I'd be buying a custom steel frame, you'll be shocked to hear. :rolleyes: Heck, i can almost see HK from here....

but why no ti fork?

You could get a Morati Ti fork for ~$550.00. :eek: Very cool but very expensive. I have a Summitomo Ti fork on my TST. Very nice, pristine work, and very comfy.

Summitomo:

Thanks for all the responses. You are certainly enlightening me.

Seems that most of you think either Ti or Steel. Nobody has mentioned Aluminium or Carbon fiber. Any particular reason?

That Habenero Ti is within my budget and looks good. However, I'm a little worried that it is priced so low. When you look at other Ti frames they are substantially higher. I've found with most cheap things that they don't last long. However a Ti frame sounds like a good option based on what I've read above.

In regards to steel, I used to ride a Reynolds 531 frame. Rode well but was a bit heavy but the main problem was that it was quite flexy. Are the latest incarnations of steel lighter and stiffer? Lots of choices out there for steel tubes. Back when I was riding it was basically reynolds or columbus. Anybody have good experience with a particular brand? 653 looks good.

Also what the hell is Scandium? I've seen that name popping up on eBay in my searches.

An good option to the Habernero might be the Merckx Majestic. A Ti frame designed by Merckx produced in the USA by Litespeed with a Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork. Take a look at www.gvhbikes.com. A good deal with full Ultegra. Had mine built up with open pro wheels. $2250 complete. Good luck.

fay yerng

i was very similar in build to you when i got back into biking also after a 10 year layoff

i first bought an aluminum bike...which was a vast improvement over Al fromes a decade ago...but it was not what i wanted

i am riding steel again

i doubt you will get a titanium bike with components that you will be happy with in your price range

Dont rule out the "hybrid" frames. I am riding a K2 Mod 5.0. Aero alu frame, with carbon chainstays and carbon wishbone seatstays. Light, stiff as hell at the bottom bracket, but, the carbon in the rear end makes it comfortable enough to ride all day.

That Habenero Ti is within my budget and looks good. However, I'm a little worried that it is priced so low. When you look at other Ti frames they are substantially higher. I've found with most cheap things that they don't last long. However a Ti frame sounds like a good option based on what I've read above..

The low price could say something about the quality or it could say something about what everybody else is charging for Ti frames. ;)

I think the reference to the Merckx Majestic was a very good link. That is a good frame.

Here is another company that manufactures Ti frames at a reasonable price. I have one of their frames, the welds are impeccable, and the reputation of the company is very strong. They make or have made Ti frames for some of the biggest name manufacturers, and they have shown that it is possible to produce quality Ti frames at a reasonable price. Unfortunately, they don't make a stock frame over 58 cm. Check out their prices:

www.titaniumsports.com/road.html

You might do a search on Habanero here at the Bikeforums. There owners are pretty happy campers.

OK, let me get this right now? You want light, strong, easy riding, stiff and cheap.

It can't be done. The problem is that you have criteria that work against each other. The old saying is that you can have cheap, light and durable - any 2. But not all three.

Now oversized aluminum frames tend to be light, strong, stiff and reasonably cheap. I have ridden Cannondales for years. But they don't have the greatest rides in the world. From my understanding, a nice steel bike with a sort of sport touring geometry or what was the old style tour de France geometry would give strong, stiff, cheap and decent ride. It wouldn't be horribly light. A carbon fiber might give light, reasonably cheap and easy riding but not that stiff.

It seems to me to get all the performance characteristics you want, you are talking about a very expensive ride.

Hi,
1) I favor Ti and steel for their durability and comfort.
2)Habaneros are made in CHina (as was my Airborne). It's rugged, think of it as the Hyundai of the bike world. Well made, reliable, but not the latest and greatest, and not a head turning status machine. Sheldon Brown likes them, he's one of the gurus of the bike world.
3) The new steels are awesome. If you can, try a Gunnar Sport.
4)Scandium is a high tech kind of aluminum. It's good stuff.

Just as an adendum to 4. This is from Feltracing.com.


What is Scandium?
Scandium is an element found and mined in Russia (Sc). It is added to the base aluminum alloy to increase strength. The end result is a lighter frame. It gives us the ability to manipulate or tune the wall thickness and diameter into a lighter higher performance frame set.

Well I doubt it is only found in russia but anyway.

Scandium, a transition metal, is element number 21 on the periodic table. 1 spot short of Titanium. Has an atomic weight of 44.956 and a specific gravity of 2.5 to titaniums 47.9 and 4.5. Aluminium btw is at number 13 with an atomic weight of 26.9815 and specific gravity of 2.7. It's a soft silvery white metal. Spectography shows that it is prevalent in many stars including our sun. It's low specific gravity makes it useful in alloys to reduce total weight per volume.

Anyway, there's you crap for the day. :D

Well it seems that from the overwhelming weight of responses that its Ti or Steel. From all my intensive web surfing I'd have to agree. These materials suit my weight and desired ride characteristics. Carbon has never turned me on and I have always been concerned about the "feel every bump" ride of Alluminium.

As Pat points out you can't have everything, though I can still want it :-) I'm willing to forgoe weight for a stiff frame with good ride characteristics. I figure the few extra pounds will come off my waistline anyway after riding the new bike. As such I've decided to go for the Ti or high end steel frame.

I'll be checking out those Habenero's and any good steel frame I can come accross. I think the Hab is the only Ti frame in my price range but it seems there are many good steel frames out there. The Cervelo Super prodigy looks good. Any suggestions for other good steel frames would be appreciated?

And again, thanks for the responses to date.

you people thinking that he cheap for wanting to spend only $1200 realize that this $1200 is for the frame ONLY THE FRAME... right? :rolleyes:

and the cervelo fram is like $1200 compared to the below $700 habanero. but the super prodigy is one good frame from waht i read.

yep I'm spending up to US$1200 on the Frame and forks (and hopefully headset) only. From my experience its the most important piece. Parts can be upgraded much easier and don't affect the ride as much as the frame and forks.

I've also seen the super prodigy for less than that, approx US$1000.

i worry about the super prodigy sometime. i've read one report of it buckling really easily in a crash (he hit a car). realise that it is probably as light as steel can be made. but everything i've read about the bb tube says it's stiff as all hell and great for climbing. i saw a complete one a while back for like $1100. it should be down in the hot deals forum. if you can afford it i would get the frame, campy record shifting, mavic ksyrium ssl wahtevers (they are supposed to be very strong), some really good isis cranks and bb, and campy pedals. the rest is taste i guess.

i worry about the super prodigy sometime. i've read one report of it buckling really easily in a crash (he hit a car). realise that it is probably as light as steel can be made. but everything i've read about the bb tube says it's stiff as all hell and great for climbing. i saw a complete one a while back for like $1100. it should be down in the hot deals forum. if you can afford it i would get the frame, campy record shifting, mavic ksyrium ssl wahtevers (they are supposed to be very strong), some really good isis cranks and bb, and campy pedals. the rest is taste i guess.

hmmm...did the car hit him...or he hit the car? :eek:

anyhow...seems to me that after that collision, the last thing to worry about is the bike...worry about the rider. I think the same would happen to an aluminum frame. carbon might snap. titanium may hold up. steel is repairable...i.e. in this case, the tubes can be replaced an welded on.

i heard good stuff about the super prodigy. i'm getting a custom frame built in similar geometry with s&s couplers for traveling.

I believe the only way to achieve the objective you want is to first find a bike that fits you properly and is within your price range.

Then I suggest you make it comfortable by fitting hand built wheels with a box section nit an aero section, fit a carbon seatpost of very good quality ie an easton and lastly make sure you 700x25tyres instead of 20 or 23mm tyres.

These items will add to your comfort significantly without you having to go to the expense of a quality Ti frame.

Since you're arelatively big guys at 220lbs I would recommend and Cannondale CAAD5 frame, outfitted with a layback Easton EA90 seatpost.
Wheels should have 3 cross lacing pattern, Box section rims like Campagnolo Neutron, Mavic Ksyrium or Mavic MA40 laced to good hubs.

The next item is the saddle.
Look for one with Ti rails and a flexible carbon reinforced nylon shell which can flex. Selle Italia's SLR works well for heavier riders who can induce the fllex into the shell.
Fi'zi:k's Aliante is also a very good saddle and is has the required attributs. It's also a bit wider than the Selle Italia's.

Ti frames a re great but you could end up sending a lot of money on a frame that no more comfortable than a cheaper aluminium one.

Cannondales are also pretty tough.

Trek's OCLV frames are also good, durable liht but not cheap. Cannondale CAAD5's can be picked up very cheaply now that it's the bottom of the range frame they make.