Road Cycling - Help! Felt vs. Cannondale

Sorry, saw a thread with a similar title and figured it was time to submit this annoying thread:

I'm just about ready to purchase my first road bike and I've already test rode a bunch of bikes and narrowed it down to the Felt F60 and the Cannondale R600. I loved both of them, but there's pros and cons about both and I'm not sure which one to get...

Felt F60 pros: rode like a dream. s-m-o-o-t-h. comes w/ pedals. comes w/ a seat that's comfortable and doesn't seem to have been designed by a Spetnaz interrorgator. slight component advantage. i think the wheelset might be better. i'm sure the carbon seat stays help the ride but it's hard to tell on a short test ride. I'm a big fan of helping out the little man, and compared to giant, trek, etc. Felt is the little man. plus i think it's really cool.

Felt F60 cons: carbon fiber seat stays - still afraid about how they'll hold up. The 3 year warranty makes me wonder more.

C'dale R600 pros: rode like a dream. frame that was top-of-the-line racer a few years ago. Made in the U.S.A. Lifetime warranty. proven tech (all aluminum). those smooth, sweet welds.

C'dale R600 cons: will wind up costing more after seat/pedals. hard to tell on short test ride, but have heard that C'dales give bone-jarring rides. slight component disadvantage. wheelset looks like it would be hard to re-true.

very level playing field, i feel. what do you guys think?

I bought a F45 this spring. No complaints at all. I choose the Felt for 3 reasons
1. components
2. more unique
3. I left the shop wishing I bought it on the spot

Buy the bike you like the best. You will ride more if you like the bike and that is what it is all about.

I own an F45 too so i'll throw my weight in it's corner. Haven't had a single regret yet.

how heavy are you? i wouldn't worry about frames too much. if you're that heavy it's time for steel or ti.

i'd lean towards the c'dale due to the lifetime warranty. i had a Felt F50, and
just past its 3-yr birthday a drop-out cracked on it. i only had one very minor
spill on the bike more than 1 year prior, so this would be the sort of thing that
a warranty would have covered.

I'm a big fan of helping out the little man, and compared to giant, trek, etc. Felt is the little man.

Uh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Most Felt frames are built by a Taiwanese company called Merida that also builds bikes for Specialized, Jamis, Mercier, Bianchi, and many others. Felt is basically a marketing company.

How does the Cannondale lifetime warranty work? Do you need a proof of purchase? I recently bought a Cannondale R600 from ebay and im just wondering if it would break, how would the warranty work.

How does the Cannondale lifetime warranty work? Do you need a proof of purchase? I recently bought a Cannondale R600 from ebay and im just wondering if it would break, how would the warranty work.

http://www.cannondale.com/policies/bike_warr_policy_ce.html

The warranty only applies to the original owner.

Ahh thanks, I was just wondering. I always take care of my baby

how heavy are you? i wouldn't worry about frames too much. if you're that heavy it's time for steel or ti.


I'm WAAAYYYY skinny. 6'1", 165 lbs, 34" inseam

Uh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Most Felt frames are built by a Taiwanese company called Merida that also builds bikes for Specialized, Jamis, Mercier, Bianchi, and many others. Felt is basically a marketing company.
Gaahhh,
Here we go again.

The frames MAY be made in Taiwan (or wherever) but Felt is NOT a "marketing" company.

These bikes are designed by Jim Felt, one of the most respected bike designers in the industry.

Where they are fabricated is irrelevant.

I own a felt F30 and love it. I found the C'dale ride to be more harsh and I liked the component advantage of the felt. I'm also a little concerned about the short warranty period, but when I bought the Felt I was thinking of a lifespan of about 5-7 years before I get the "itch" and convince the wife that a new bike is reasonable. I guess I didn't think the 2-4 year period of no warranty was that big a gamble given the other advantages of the bike.

Well, I just bought an R600 yesterday and so far I love it. I picked it over the Trek 1500, Giant OCR1 and Bianchi Eros. I don't know much about the Felt so I'm not much help to you. Good luck.

Ryan

I have a Felt 85. Light, easy to maintain, good components, not too much money. Smooth ride.

Do any of you fellas with a Felt have a digital camera you could take a pic or two of the frame welds with and post here?

I've got a hankering for a Felt F60 or F45 if I can stretch it but I'm a little worried about the quality of the welds on the frames. Can anyone help me out?

I have an al/carb road bike and i love it, it rides so much smother then my 3 year old cannandale 600 so by all means go for the felt you will enjoy the ride more witht he carbon seat stays

The welds are beaded, not smooth. There is nothing wrong with the welds at all. I have the F35 and was considering an R1000. The component advantage was all too easy for me - better wheels, drivetrain, etc. I've put just over 2000 miles on the bike since I got it in March and the wheels haven't needed to be trued yet (I'm 175 pounds). However, I was looking at the bike with a view to changing the frame in 3-4 years so the warranty didn't bother me. When I do change the frame, I won't have to change the components at all.

You simply have to ride them both - more than once if possible - for a few miles. Best of luck!

The welds are beaded, not smooth. There is nothing wrong with the welds at all.

Yeah, I know you can get a bad weld in any type, but it's just been my limited experience in other things that a beaded weld (depending on how rough it is) can more easily hide a bad weld than a smooth one, so I prefer to avoid them if they are going to worry me.

Yeah, I know you can get a bad weld in any type, but it's just been my limited experience in other things that a beaded weld (depending on how rough it is) can more easily hide a bad weld than a smooth one, so I prefer to avoid them if they are going to worry me.

That's fair enough and really you've made your decision. You have to be comfortable with what you buy - regardless of what your decisions are based on. This become more important since we all spend extra money on the bike after we buy it for toys, upgrades etc. You have to look at your bike everday and not have any doubts or regrets! I knew a guy who bought a new Jaguar because he desperately wanted the car and wouldn't wait for one in the colour he really liked to come in. 6 months later he sold it. He came to hate the colour and got taken to the cleaners on the re-sale!

I haven't owned a Cannondale or Felt, so I can't speak about the two from experience. But, I can say... you shouldn't have to worry about the carbon stays. In general this doesn't effect the life of the frame a bit. I'm not privy to the exact manufacturing process behind Felt F60, but I feel confident they have a similar process to, pretty much, every other manufacturer in the industry. While I've read some people questioning whether the carbon stays help the ride of a bike, I can say that I have experienced this myself, and there is a definite difference (at least in the bikes I chose between). It helps to be able to ride the bikes immediately back-to-back on the same road. The difference becomes apparent.

That's fair enough and really you've made your decision. You have to be comfortable with what you buy - regardless of what your decisions are based on. This become more important since we all spend extra money on the bike after we buy it for toys, upgrades etc. You have to look at your bike everday and not have any doubts or regrets! I knew a guy who bought a new Jaguar because he desperately wanted the car and wouldn't wait for one in the colour he really liked to come in. 6 months later he sold it. He came to hate the colour and got taken to the cleaners on the re-sale!

Yeah, I guess I'll make the decision when I get to the shop. The Felt's just look so sweet in pics and are speced so well that I'm hankering for one. There are other nice bikes like Lemonds and the like that I'd be happy on as well. The proof will be in the viewing and riding though.

Thanks for your perspective. :)

Just to add my 2 cents. I recently bought an R600 and have been very happy with it. I wasn't concerned about not having pedals and having to replace the seat because those are things I would more than likely replace anyway.

I'm not familiar with the Felt so I can't help you there.

As far as the Cannondale ride, I couldn't be happier... And I love the Made in USA on the seatstay...

:)

Gaahhh,
Here we go again.

The frames MAY be made in Taiwan (or wherever) but Felt is NOT a "marketing" company.

These bikes are designed by Jim Felt, one of the most respected bike designers in the industry.

Where they are fabricated is irrelevant.

Good reply, as a former bike industry sales rep and shop owner, where frames are made are irrelevant.
Quality and consistency are.

The process works this way. Designers and engineers from a company like Specialized or Felt decide on what frame material, wall thicknesses, geometry, etc. and then look for the factory that can execute the design with quality and consistency. A number of years ago, there were more companies that did little or no research & development, who in fact were little more than "marketing companies" whose bikes were generic and not that great. The stiff competition has weeded these companies out and the only place they are able to sell bikes is at the low end (dept. stores/discount warehouses).

In the case of new technology which might require for instance, special curves in the seat stay, engineers from the company will go the factory and help set up systems to achieve the best way to fabricate the new design.

When I owned my store, we carried complete bikes made in Taiwan, the US and Italy. After awhile, a pattern developed. We could pretty much trust that when we pulled a Taiwanese or US bike out of the box, the quality of the frame and components would be top-notch. With the Italian bikes, there was generally somethin', poor wheel builds, paint blemishes, and almost always longer assembly time. With the small production Italian framemakers, quality of frame build and paint ranged from mediocre to excellent.

Gaahhh,
Here we go again.

The frames MAY be made in Taiwan (or wherever) but Felt is NOT a "marketing" company.

These bikes are designed by Jim Felt, one of the most respected bike designers in the industry.

Where they are fabricated is irrelevant.

So you consider filling out a spec sheet and faxing it to Taiwan "designing" a bike? When you order frames from Taiwanese builders, you pick from a the tubing types they offer, specify the angles, pick paint and decals, maybe a very few other options (integrated HS or not, etc). Takes about 15 minutes.

Where they are fabricated is NOT irrelevant. Why do you think Cannondale can make an aluminum frame so much lighter than the asian builders? Better quality control, more skilled builders. The thinner the tubing, the more difficult to build with. Ever notice how all sorts of asian builders build with Reynolds 853 but none offer bikes built with Ultra Foco? Because Ultra Foco is difficult to weld properly and requires more sophisticated heat treating after welding.

At a given price point, Felt bikes are indistinguishable from other mass-market manufacturers. Maybe a slight difference in parts spec, but that's it.

Yes there are a few high-end framesets that they sell that are made here and are a bit more design intensive, but I'd bet these make up less than 1% of sales volume. I've NEVER seen one on the road or at a race.

I guess you've never been to a triathlon.
They are VERY big in that area.
One of my friends races a Felt track bike.
I've personally spoken to one of thier engineers in reference to some design concerns.
so... whatever...

I've NEVER seen one on the road or at a race.

BTW, Colavita races them too.

I think I made my decision. I think I will continue having misgivings about those seatstays on the Felt. Also, being a consultant and understanding the evils of outsourcing, I think I will go w/ the good ol' Made in the USA Cannondale. I've always been a fan of that Monroe Doctrine.

Ah yes ... Cannondale. The All-American company that just has to be better than frames made overseas. The same Cannondale that went bankrupt. Ho Hum.

I'm NOT a Cannondale basher, but the reasonning people give sometimes ... sheesh. :rolleyes:

So you consider filling out a spec sheet and faxing it to Taiwan "designing" a bike? When you order frames from Taiwanese builders, you pick from a the tubing types they offer, specify the angles, pick paint and decals, maybe a very few other options (integrated HS or not, etc). Takes about 15 minutes.

Where they are fabricated is NOT irrelevant. Why do you think Cannondale can make an aluminum frame so much lighter than the asian builders? Better quality control, more skilled builders. The thinner the tubing, the more difficult to build with. Ever notice how all sorts of asian builders build with Reynolds 853 but none offer bikes built with Ultra Foco? Because Ultra Foco is difficult to weld properly and requires more sophisticated heat treating after welding.

At a given price point, Felt bikes are indistinguishable from other mass-market manufacturers. Maybe a slight difference in parts spec, but that's it.

Yes there are a few high-end framesets that they sell that are made here and are a bit more design intensive, but I'd bet these make up less than 1% of sales volume. I've NEVER seen one on the road or at a race.

Actually, at the companies do serious R&D, prototypes are built & tested (often times by sponsored riders) and the final version and tubing specs are a result of rider input. I know this from having worked at one of these companies for over 8 years. R&D people were constantly flying to Asia,Europe and US fabricators to get things done the right way. This takes more than 15 minutes. Giant TCR's for example or Specialized S-Works models. Obviously, we are talking about the more expensive models. You're correct for the most part about low to mid-range (mostly mountain or comfort bikes) although serious R&D companies are always trying to improve all of their price points to stay one step ahead of the very stiff competition that exists in the bike industry. A lot of improvements designed into the lower price frames are "trickle down" from features that first appeared on hi-end frames. These features become the new standard.

When Felt first came out, it was certainly different than the other alu frames out there. Since I haven't kept up with this brand for a number of years, I don't know whether that's changed. What I do know is that this company has survived very stiff competition in the upper end market and it is thriving.

Cannondale on the other end, went bankrupt a few years back because it didn't keep it's focus on bikes having decided at one point making off-road motorcycles was a great idea. The jury's still out as to whether or not the re-organized company will survive.

I'm not trying to start a mean-spirited argument, just an entertaining one, MacMan, but if there's two bikes that I'm equally happy with, and I can't decide between the two, I'll go with the Made in the U.S.A. one. If it meant going for a lower quality bike, or one that I wasn't happy with, that label wouldn't be a consideration. plenty of good companies go into (and sometimes come out of) bankruptcy. it's my understanding that it was the motorsports division that had the financial trouble.

that being said, i'm still going to try to go for more test rides before i make my decision, since i like both bikes. but it's the carbon on that Felt that still bothers me...

As a consultant myself, I can actually understand the "evils" of outsourcing. If the consulting industry hadn't been gouging everyone so badly over the last 10 years, then the option of off-shoring (which seems to hit the full-timers more than us) wouldn't appear so attractive (falsely so in my opinion, but that's another story).

More to the point, what exactly is it about the carbon in the Felt that has you worried? Would you feel the same way towards the carbon in the R1000? Is it just that it's carbon, or the fact that it's on the Felt? If the latter, then there is nothing that will change your mind because it's perception - which is fine and a good enough reason not to buy it since it's such a personal decision. If it's the former, then you shouldn't even consider a bike with any carbon in or on it.

I have an r600 and love it, its stiff and fast, for me the ride is perfect. I see no need at all for carbon stays, but that's just me. I put Velomax circuits on mine and It is fantastic. With those wheels on it I can't believe how much bike I got for $1400 (I got my wheels new off Ebay at a substantial savings).

As a consultant myself, I can actually understand the "evils" of outsourcing. If the consulting industry hadn't been gouging everyone so badly over the last 10 years, then the option of off-shoring (which seems to hit the full-timers more than us) wouldn't appear so attractive (falsely so in my opinion, but that's another story).

More to the point, what exactly is it about the carbon in the Felt that has you worried? Would you feel the same way towards the carbon in the R1000? Is it just that it's carbon, or the fact that it's on the Felt? If the latter, then there is nothing that will change your mind because it's perception - which is fine and a good enough reason not to buy it since it's such a personal decision. If it's the former, then you shouldn't even consider a bike with any carbon in or on it.

I'm actually an environmental consultant, and i'm too young to remember the "good old days". I got into it after the asbestos and lead boom. To answer your question...neither. A completely carbon bike wouldn't bother me. What bothers me is the carbon/aluminum interface. I guess I just don't know enough about how they're joined together. How the two materials with different characteristics are attached to prevent problems. problems such as the end of the carbon fiber members fraying or delaminating due to repetitive compressive stress (over time) from, say bumpy roads. i'm sure that all this has been figured out, i'd just like to understand it.

I was unaware of C'dales financial woes. I guess that lifetime frame warranty only applies if the company survives...(or is it insured through a 3rd party?)

I think most would agree that the important part is that you are happy with the bike you buy. In the end it is your decision. Enjoy the ride be it Cannondale or Felt.

I had and R600 and the tubing bent...I have heard of a lot of instances like this happening with Cannondale bikes. Most of the people I know in Chicago that have riden a Cannondale have had similar quality problems. I personally ride a Felt so what I just said my have no impact however I would take a serious look at Felt....solid bikes, great components, slick design, and fun to ride!

Get a good steel bike that will outlast and ride better then both of those.

I'm actually an environmental consultant, and i'm too young to remember the "good old days". I got into it after the asbestos and lead boom. To answer your question...neither. A completely carbon bike wouldn't bother me. What bothers me is the carbon/aluminum interface. I guess I just don't know enough about how they're joined together. How the two materials with different characteristics are attached to prevent problems. problems such as the end of the carbon fiber members fraying or delaminating due to repetitive compressive stress (over time) from, say bumpy roads. i'm sure that all this has been figured out, i'd just like to understand it.

Carbon/aluminum interface: the important considerations are a very precise and clean fit between the tube and the lug it goes into, thus close tolerances are needed. Many lugs incorporate a "spud" which goes inside the tube. This insures that the tube is supported on the outside (by the lug) and on the inside (by the spud). This arrangement also increases the "bonding area" which is the area that the epoxy covers resulting in a stronger bond. Development of better epoxies like other bicycle technology is being improved constantly. Delamination of tubes is extremely rare, in fact almost non existent. The carbon fiber material is bonded with resin and cured. You can literally bang on carbon tubes with a hammer and it will take a number of hard, repeated blows to compromise the tube. Try this with an aluminum or steel tube! At this time, with the number of carbon fiber frames (part or all of the frame) being ridden at the highest level by world class cyclists, you can be sure that this would not be the case if this technology was unreliable. Whether it's STI shifting, Carbon fiber or clipless pedals, the pro peloton has given their stamp of approval to these technologies because they offer better performance and are just as or more reliable than the technologies they replaced.

Having said all this, also realize that the bigger companies (Trek, Specialized, Cannondale) all are very concerned that their products are viewed positively by the cycling public. To this end, they all have excellent customer service departments and warranties. Before you buy a product from a small company, if you plan on keeping it for an extended period, find out who is ultimately responsible should you have a problem. With new companies and imports, the risk is higher since these companies may or may not stay in business or continue to export to the US if they are not able to compete.

Ah yes ... Cannondale. The All-American company that just has to be better than frames made overseas. The same Cannondale that went bankrupt. Ho Hum.

I'm NOT a Cannondale basher, but the reasonning people give sometimes ... sheesh. :rolleyes:

Cannondale filed chapter 11 because they somehow got it in their heads that they could compete with the Japonese building motorcycles. They were actually developing some innovative motorcycle technology. The Cannondale stock that is traded publicly now has nothing to do with the current Cannondale bicycle company, which is quite healthy financially.

I love my Felt F90; but I suffered several months of mysterious valve failures because of the cheap, plastic, rim tape that came with the wheels. Where the tape met the valve hole there was a hard plastic crust that damaged every valve it touched. If you have any doubts, replace the rim tape.

I have a Felt 50.....Bought it new just over a year ago, and have had nothing but complete satisfaction from it......It's a joy to ride. I would highly recommend these bikes to anyone.

hard to tell on short test ride, but have heard that C'dales give bone-jarring rides.
I don't know about the R600, but I've got an R3000 and the ride is plush... more so than my Litespeed Classic (Ti).

You sound like me. I ended up with the same decision, and went to the cannondale. The bike looks sharper to me. The ride was tough. I changed saddles about 5 times and ended up with a " Koobi " PRS enduro, mounted on a Easton carbon fiber seat post and conti attack force tires. Good luck making your decision.

Re: the Cannondale Warranty. I know some people having trouble getting their warranty honored (corrosion on the AL frame). As I understand it, C'dale is currently bankrupt; I wouldn't make a choice based on warranty...

I've heard horror stories and wonderful tales of joy from every bike company in the industry. I used to have a gross distaste for Cannondale (see my name?) due to the horror stories, now I've been riding an old r800 built up with Dura-ace for the past 3 years and I love it. The kind of customer service you will receive if you have a problem will be a crapshoot with either company, so don't consider that. Which bike will you have more fun riding? Which one feels better? Which one looks cooler? (lame, I know, but we all think about it) Then pick a bike and ride it. I'm a little confuse as to why people have concerns about carbon still. I remember all of the concerns everyone had when it first hit the market. Companies have been dispelling all of these demons for years and people still get nervous around it.

Unless you have unlimited resources, I would get the best bike for the money. If you have unlimited resources, I'd get the Six-13. drool, drool, drool.

The welds are beaded, not smooth. There is nothing wrong with the welds at all. I have the F35 and was considering an R1000. The component advantage was all too easy for me - better wheels, drivetrain, etc. I've put just over 2000 miles on the bike since I got it in March and the wheels haven't needed to be trued yet (I'm 175 pounds). However, I was looking at the bike with a view to changing the frame in 3-4 years so the warranty didn't bother me. When I do change the frame, I won't have to change the components at all.

You simply have to ride them both - more than once if possible - for a few miles. Best of luck!


Thank you...I don't understand the aversion to beaded welds...my Orbea has them and I think they look kind of cool...although I am sure they cost me a gazillionth of a second when I am in aero position, lol

I think I made my decision. I think I will continue having misgivings about those seatstays on the Felt. Also, being a consultant and understanding the evils of outsourcing, I think I will go w/ the good ol' Made in the USA Cannondale. I've always been a fan of that Monroe Doctrine.

One thing about the seatstays...you aren'y heavy and the CF used these days is freaking strong...it will give you some relief from the standard OS battering you take with Al...and if you are posting here, I'll bet 5 simoleons that you buy another bike before the warranty runs out anyway, lol.

Bone jaring Cannondale? Yea, I've heard it too. I have over 6,000 miles so far on my C'dale and have never found it to be uncomfortable. Can't express a valid opinion on Felt, so I would guess you can't go wrong either way.....

Depending on what year your cannondale it it can be pretty bone jaring on crummy roads. My cannondale is about 10 years old and boy does it beat you up on our horrible roads around here. Haven't ridden a newer one so I don't know if they have gotten better or not.

cheers-
Jim

regarding the cannondale warranty- I had a MTB frame replaced due to corrosion inside the seat tube which was causing a squeak when riding... They replaced it no questions asked..

cheers-
jim