Road Cycling - Steel frames?

Weren't all bikes steel frames a long time ago? Why is it that now that's the thing? I thought carbon and titanium were the frames to have for a while. Are the new steel frames different and is chromoly a steel frame? Sorry for so many questions, I am just trying to understand all of this. Thanks.

Steel is back in (not sure it ever really went away) now because some things just work really well for certain uses. Carbon and Ti are great materials that you may prefer to steel or you may not. It's great to have the choice. The new steels are allowing frames to be constructed lighter than in the past, which is also responsible for its "come back". And yes chromoly is a steel.

I know that there is a similar topic right around here, but juts wondered about chromoly and whether there was a difference with the new. Thanks for any and all of the responses. Also is chromoly crap?

Most quality frames -- Ti, Aluminum, Carbon, Chromoly -- aren't crap. There are a lot more "crap" riders than there are "crap" frames. Plus there are bikes that fit the rider like "crap", too!

It's all Marketing Fluff, it runs in circles

Most quality frames -- Ti, Aluminum, Carbon, Chromoly -- aren't crap. There are a lot more "crap" riders than there are "crap" frames. Plus there are bikes that fit the rider like "crap", too!

Amen!

The crappy grade of steel is "hi ten(sile)".
See the website of Reynolds Steel for some good info on modern bike steel.

what is a crappy steel. or frame material that is:

something that has a high density/strength ratio

great material does not necessarily mean great frame.. The geometry of the frame and skill of the builder plays a very important role..

my friends lightspeed classic weighs the same as my steel bike. the word 'steel' sounds heavy. steel and Ti are both durable and lends itself to good 'butting' The development of TIG welding for steel lightened its overall weight.
other than that, personal preference, ride conditions and frame size dictate which frame type you choose. some like some flex, others like stiffness near the bottom bracket.

For your average weekend warrior or 40 mile a day rider, steel is the ideal combination of strength, weight and cost.

So if i'm riding a steel bike and its time for another bike,is a Ti not going to be enough difference in ride to get it?

All steel has the same density. Chromoly steel is about twice as strong as hi ten, and heat treated steels are about 4x the tensile strength. With stronger steel, you can use thinner walls, so the tubes are lighter. Hi tensile steel tubes have thick walls, and the thickness can be uneven. Although you could build a decent bike from Hi Ten steel, the lowest grade for any decent construction is probably an un-butted chromoly (or equiv) such as Reynolds 501.
Any quality frame would be made from tubes with a butted profile (thinner in the middle, thicker at the joins)
A lot of the low-end Ti frames do not use butted tubes. They are light, but no lighter than a good steel frame of similar price.

I've been drawn towards the Litespeed Solano but after reading abit and looking at the Lemond Victoire and Victoire Classic, well now i'm not sure. I sure like the Lemond. All would be an upgrade from my 03 steel Fuji Marseille.

All steel has the same density. Chromoly steel is about twice as strong as hi ten, and heat treated steels are about 4x the tensile strength. With stronger steel, you can use thinner walls, so the tubes are lighter. Hi tensile steel tubes have thick walls, and the thickness can be uneven. Although you could build a decent bike from Hi Ten steel, the lowest grade for any decent construction is probably an un-butted chromoly (or equiv) such as Reynolds 501.
Any quality frame would be made from tubes with a butted profile (thinner in the middle, thicker at the joins)
A lot of the low-end Ti frames do not use butted tubes. They are light, but no lighter than a good steel frame of similar price.

Are you going to tell me the Jamis Satellite is junk because it's 520??

http://www.jamisbikes.com/bikes/04_satellite.html#

Or my Bianchi Volpe with Chromoly 520??

http://www.bianchiusa.com/volpe.html

Or the Surly Crosscheck with 4130??

http://www.surlybikes.com/bikes.html

Come on folks. I would take ANY of these bikes over a hard Alu Trek 1000!!! Any Day....

In fact, the Surly Crosscheck is highly noted because of it's "Steel" feel that comes from it's low level chromoly. Just because a bike has a low chromoly number doesn't mean it's a bad ride. I have a old Chromoly Univega bike that's un-butted but rides like a dream. My other Alu hybrids may just have to go because I found the perfect town bike. It's sad that lightness has become more important than comfort. Why do you think there are loads of Trek 1000s for sale on Ebay?

I had a chance to ride the Jamis Satellite and the Giant OCR3. I have to say, I prefer the Jamis' ride a lot better than the OCR3. It wasn't as stiff and I would imagine less prone to rattles in future over an aluminum frame. Is that a good assessment? Just curious.

I do wonder why Jamis decided to move away from the steel frame in the '04 versions of the Quest series?

Sunny

Hmm, so what is the difference the rider would notice between Hi-ten and say cro-moly or even 6061 aluminum, weight aside? I'm such a roadbike newb it's ridiculous, and I'm looking to buy a bike so I'm trying to get all the info i can.

Well, my ride it Ti, next will be steel ... either custom or a sweet Colnago of some sort ..

home4sale, what do you mean? the '04 jamis quest is still Reynolds 631: http://jamisbikes.com/bikes/04_quest.html

There are also some myths about steel that need to be dispelled. I'm a big guy (240 lbs) and everyone told me I should stay away from steel. This is incorrect. I'm sure that some super light steel frames might not work. I got a Viner Competition and it is so much more comfortable than my old Cannondale.

I am glad I kept my old Centurion Ironman. It is the light Cro-mo frame with butted joints, and Tange steel forks. Nice geometry. I have always liked it alot. I am in the process of restoring it. Paint has a few chips in it which I touched up with some Automotive touch-up paint. Maybe someday I will just strip it down and repaint the whole thing. Then I can give it a slick personal paint job, the way I want.

Patriot

Hmm, so what is the difference the rider would notice between Hi-ten and say cro-moly or even 6061 aluminum, weight aside?
i think one of the bigger factors is how much road vibration is absorb in the frame before it gets to you.

As far as strength goes, the only thing comparable to the steel frame per volume of material, I think would be Titanium. Carbon fiber is strong, (kind of like steel, it is VERY stiff and rigid), but when used in small amounts to make such a light frame, I really don't think it is quite as strong as steel, but cf can definitely be stronger than Aluminum.

Believe it or not, what really makes the cf strrong is the type and amount of resin used in the curing process. The rigidity comes from the cf itself. Trust me, I build RC model airplanes for a hobby, so I build with exotic composites quite often. CF is great stuff, but in some areas, it really pays to use an alloy instead.

Patriot

While some form of steel was used in a lot of older bikes, there were aluminum bikes out (Germany) but they were flexy until heat-treatment (Cannondale) of alu came along.
Yes, there were also wooden bikes and bamboo bikes with metal components.
Of course steel has been refined from butting to heat treating and combinations with other alloys/materials.
Never mind what your are riding . . . just ride!

As far as strength goes, the only thing comparable to the steel frame per volume of material, I think would be Titanium. Carbon fiber is strong, (kind of like steel, it is VERY stiff and rigid), but when used in small amounts to make such a light frame, I really don't think it is quite as strong as steel, but cf can definitely be stronger than Aluminum.

Strength to weight carbon has a VERY clear advantage (more than 5 to 1), so if you have a 3lb steel frame and a 3lb carbon frame the carbon frame will in theory be 5 times stronger.



Believe it or not, what really makes the cf strrong is the type and amount of resin used in the curing process. The rigidity comes from the cf itself. Trust me, I build RC model airplanes for a hobby, so I build with exotic composites quite often. CF is great stuff, but in some areas, it really pays to use an alloy instead.

Composites like fiberglass and carbon fiber get their strength from the weave of the cloth and the direction it is laid up in (otherwise why use any cloth at all). The resin side is obviously very important as well (it's a whole system where all parts have to work together).

You can find a lot of information on tubesets for the framebuilders (amateur and pro);
http://www.desperadocycles.com/The_Lowdown_On_Tubing/About_Steel_Tubing_page4.htm
http://www.framebuilding.com/Columbus-Tubing.htm (Vendor of Columbus tubing)
http://www.bringheli.com/dedacciai.html (Dadacciai vendor)
A good source for the DIY frame building crowd - http://www.frameforum.net

Andrew

Sorry bout that Ajay, you're right. I am thiking hardness. Duh. CF is more easily damaged by physical impact, because it uses resin as it's bonding agent, which is strong, but not as "hard" as steel.

Good example. A buddy of my years ago, had a Cadex cf framed MTB, and when he high centered a big boulder, he tore up the frame, actually tore thourgh it, then the stress later caused it to break the frame, quite amazing.

My other friend high centerted the same boulder with an older steel framed MTB, and it scratched the hell out of the frame, but it never failed, even later on, because it could withstand the material impact better than cf.

cf is awesome stuff, and takes alot of stress, but when it starts to fail, it tends to fail catastrophically, ie fractures, etc. steel will tend to give a bit before it bites the big one.

Case in point, ,in old airplanes, the wing spars were made of Aluminum opr even steel, when they test the wings, they would flex, and eventually buckled and folded.
But the newer composite wings will flex an aweful lot, but when they fail, they fail big time, usually they shatter and even explode. Pretty cool to see.

Either way, each material has there benefits. Steel is back in, for some reason. I think it is really because steel does a good job, and is still much more cost effective than cf.

Patriot

Steel frames are TIG welded because it lessens the costs of production. It can be done robotically. It is arguable as to whether or not it weighs any less. Brazing must be done by hand, one frame at a time.

boze, my bad, you are right. I misread something. Sunny

Steel frames are TIG welded because it lessens the costs of production. It can be done robotically. It is arguable as to whether or not it weighs any less. Brazing must be done by hand, one frame at a time.

One of the reasons 853 steel is desirable is that TIG welding actually increases the material strength at the weld site.

The down side of TIG vs Brazing is that the heat from welding will distort the frame which then has to be straightened. Brazing happens at a lower temperature without the level distortion of welding.

You can talk in circles about frame materials for years (instead of just riding) and never get agreement: weight, stiffness, dimensions, ride quality, cost etc. The bottom line is ride the bikes your considering on the type of rides you routinely do. Forget the LBS parking lot....go out for 2 hours. In the end, that's all that matters. You can spend an extra $1000 to shave 5 pounds on a bike, but if your 10 pounds overweight, how smart was that?!

home4sale, what do you mean? the '04 jamis quest is still Reynolds 631: http://jamisbikes.com/bikes/04_quest.html

you are right, i misread the info.

What is the difference between a "traditional lugged" steel frame and the "butted" frame referenced above?

A lugged frame uses "lugs" that the tubes fit into and are then "brazed" in place (low heat welding basically)

Image of a BB lug;
http://www.ceeway.com/Graphicpages/002_TWO_EVE_SHELLS2003.gif

Butted frames are when the frame tubing is "butted" against each other and then welded in place.

Ok, just did it. Put a deposit on a 2004 Jamis Satellite. Let's see, someone in China is digging up steel as we speak, by Monday a mold will be complete, by Wednesday, it will be shipped to another factory, by Friday, they'll start putting wheels on it, brakes...

If I ride it enough, I may upgrade.

Hope to receive it in two weeks. Can't wait.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Sunny

Ok, just did it. Put a deposit on a 2004 Jamis Satellite. Let's see, someone in China is digging up steel as we speak, by Monday a mold will be complete, by Wednesday, it will be shipped to another factory, by Friday, they'll start putting wheels on it, brakes...

If I ride it enough, I may upgrade.

Hope to receive it in two weeks. Can't wait.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Sunny

Many...... The 2004 Jamis Satellite is a nice looking bike. The chrome is just amazing. A dealer wants me to buy a 2002 Jamis Aurora for $250.00! I just might take his offer. Jamis makes really good steel bikes.

OK -

Now that I understand the difference between "butted" and "lugged" frames, what are the advantages of each?

It seems the very high end custom bikes are lugged. Is a lugged farme lighter, stronger, or easier to produce in small lots?

First, don't get confused between butted frames and butted tubes. All high quality steel frames will have butted tubing. Butted frame tubes are thicker at the joints for strength. Unbutted tubes are joint thickness end to end so they are much heavier.

Back to your question; in general lugged frames are stronger while tig welded frames are slightly lighter. Lugged construction allows frames to be brazed at lower temperatures which means that joining process has less effect on the metallurgical properties of the frame. Air hardened steels have somewhat mitigated this issue, though.

Steel frames are TIG welded because it lessens the costs of production. It can be done robotically. It is arguable as to whether or not it weighs any less. Brazing must be done by hand, one frame at a time.
my old trek elance 400 had lugs that were brazed by robots :)