Training & Nutrition - Protein ... when?

I've always hit my body with some protein (as well as a sports drink) after a ride. However, I recently bought some Accelerade sports drink that contains protein (4x1 carb x protein ratio), and is designed to be consumed during a ride. What are your thoughts on protein during a ride? ThanX!

a waste of time, and not needed afterwards either, or just in very small amounts (e.g., ~ 10 g).

aim for 30 - 60g of carb per hour of riding and after intense session, aim to consume 1.5 g of carb per kg body mass within 30mins of finishing (i.e., if you weigh 70 kg, use 105 g carb). ensure you have plenty of fluids (1.5 x's your weight loss) and ensure that it has plenty of electrolytes in to prevent it being excreted.

assuming that you're either a vegetarian or eat a normal mixed diet, and your weight is constant (i.e., you're not loosing a lot of weight) then protein needs will be met with your diet and supplements aren't required

ric

Totally agreed- so many people think they have to have that protein drink after the ride, when really you should be much more concerned with carbohydrate depletion, not protein loss.

Koffee

to add to my initial response: it's exceedingly easy for most people to way over consume protein, and not only go past the recommended amount for the volume/intensity of training that they do, but to exceed the upper limit. even as a veggie (ovo-lacto) i have no problem meeting the upper limit of 2.0 g/kg/day.

on the other hand CHO demands are much harder to meet -- especially the upper level of ~ 12 g/kg/day.

ric

So when is the best time to consume protein? Just anytime during the day? Also is it too late to consume carbs a few hours after intense exercise?

In today's email from www.roadbikerider.com, they quote Edmund Burke as recommending that we take 20 - 30 grams at night before going to bed:


Protein is a key recovery nutrient to take before
retiring for the night. Since protein synthesis occurs
during sleep, it is vital to provide the body with
plenty of amino acids by taking a protein drink.

The key is a combination of protein that is released
slowly through metabolism while sleeping. This means
a mixture of whey protein, casein, and even milk protein.

Whey protein is a faster released protein and is
important because it contains a high percentage of both
essential amino acids and branched-chain amino acids.
(BCAAs supply energy by taking the place of glucose in
energy pathways.)

BCAAs can increase the net protein turnover during
sleep and lead to greater gains in lean muscle mass
and better exercise recovery. Quality whey protein also
provides key factors that can boost immune function.

Casein is a more slowly released protein, providing
amino acids to the body over a longer period of the
night. It has a naturally high amount of the amino acid
glutamine.

As discussed in earlier chapters, glutamine is
essential for increasing the rate of protein synthesis
while reducing breakdown in muscle tissue, along with
a whole host of other great functions.

Taking 20 to 35 grams (depending on body weight) of a
whey and casein blend mixed with water about one hour
before going to sleep can do wonders for protein
synthesis during sleep.

I consume 155 grams of protein per day through both chicken and whey shakes. You want to consume those protein bars with high carbs too within 30 minutes after riding.

I'm sorry but to anyone stating that protein intake after a workout is unnecessary, that's absolutely ridiculous. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but you're body makes the best use of protein within 20 - 25 minutes of physical activity, after that span of time your muscles go into a catabolic state and recovery is greatly diminished.

Also, although most people will get plenty of protein in their diet, it comes in such large amounts that it is not an effective measure of the useful amount of protein they're consuming in a day. The upper limit for the amount of protein any body can handle at any one time is 40g's. That means for 180lb person who should consume 145g's of protein a day they'd have to be consuming 4 meals that contain almost 40g's of protein each. That's something almost nobody does. It's much more realistic to break that into several "snacks" a day based around taking a protein supplement.

I personally have a protein shake 2-3 times a day depending on what i'm working for the day and when I finish my workouts. For example I'll always have 1 in the morning mixed into skim milk with a banana. Then, if I finish my workout before 8pm i'll have a protein shake immediately afterward followed by one immediately before I go to bed around midnight. If I finish my workout after 8pm i'll usualy have a protein shake right after the workout and then some cottage cheese right before I go to bed. Of course it's not necessary to take the protein in the form of a supplement, i've just found that to be the easiest way to do it without significantly increasing my calorie/fat/cholesterol intake for the day.

I'm sorry but to anyone stating that protein intake after a workout is unnecessary, that's absolutely ridiculous. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but you're body makes the best use of protein within 20 - 25 minutes of physical activity, after that span of time your muscles go into a catabolic state and recovery is greatly diminished.


unfortunately, you have this confused with carbohydrates. for e.g., see Jentjens et al., 2001



Also, although most people will get plenty of protein in their diet, it comes in such large amounts that it is not an effective measure of the useful amount of protein they're consuming in a day. The upper limit for the amount of protein any body can handle at any one time is 40g's. That means for 180lb person who should consume 145g's of protein a day they'd have to be consuming 4 meals that contain almost 40g's of protein each. That's something almost nobody does. It's much more realistic to break that into several "snacks" a day based around taking a protein supplement.


this isn't true

ric

So when is the best time to consume protein? Just anytime during the day? Also is it too late to consume carbs a few hours after intense exercise?

probably not directly prior to exercise, and not (too much) during exercise. Just eat a normal mixed diet, that ensures your weight remains stable (unless you're actively loosing weight), making sure that carbs are ~ 60% of total energy input. Exact recommendations can be made knowing what type and how intense your training regime is

ric

Rather than just rattling off some random name and a date how about actually posting a link referring to any of the actual findings. For example this summary of a book coming out based on research done at the University of Texas:

http://www.active.com/print.cfm?category=eat_right&story_id=10485


1. Consuming protein with carbohydrate during exercise can increase endurance

It appears that the effectiveness of carbohydrate consumption during exercise is limited by the maximum rate at which the liver can release glucose into the bloodstream -- about 1 gram per minute. It's not hard to consume enough carbohydrate in a sports drink to reach this limit, and consuming any more will not help.

But the muscles can also use protein for energy. A supplement combining carbohydrate and protein can therefore provide more energy and delay fatigue by allowing the muscles to conserve more glycogen (their main energy source).

A study at the University of Texas compared the effects of a carbohydrate and a carbohydrate-protein supplement on endurance performance. Trained cyclists last 36% longer in a ride to exhaustion when fed the carbohydrate-protein drink than when fed the carbohydrate drink.


2. Consuming protein during exercise can reduce muscle damage

When protein is not consumed during exercise, muscle proteins are broken down for energy, resulting in muscle damage. When protein is consumed during exercise, such damage is minimized.

This was demonstrated in a study done at James Madison University. Researchers fed either a regular carbohydrate sports drink or a carbohydrate-protein drink to subjects during a hard stationary bike ride and measured post-exercise levels of creatine phosphokinase (CPK) in the blood. CPK is a biomarker of muscle damage.

The subjects receiving the carbohydrate/protein supplement had CPK levels 83% lower than those receiving the carbohydrate supplement, indicating significantly less muscle damage during exercise.

4. Post-exercise nutrition reduces injuries and sickness

In a remarkable new study, Marine recruits representing six platoons were assigned to one of three treatment protocols during 54 days of basic training. Each day after exercise, some Marines received a carbohydrate drink, others a carbohydrate-protein drink, and still others flavored water.

The investigators reported that the protein-supplemented group had an average of 33% fewer total medical visits, 28% fewer visits due to bacterial/viral infections, 37% fewer visits due to muscle/joint problems, and 83% fewer visits due to heat exhaustion compared to members of the other groups. They also had less muscle soreness.

This new evidence indicates that athletes in heavy training will stay healthier if they consume a carbohydrate-protein supplement immediately following each workout. Strenuous exercise suppresses the immune system, opening the door to infections. Carbohydrate and the amino acid glutamine fuel the immune system and counteract this suppression.

5. Post-exercise nutrition improves performance in the next workout

It stands to reason that if immediate supplementation after exercise results in a faster, stronger recovery, it could also improve performance in the next workout. The James Madison University study cited above showed this to be the case.

After completing a performance ride on day one, the subjects of this study were asked to come back after a 15-hour recovery period. Upon returning, the subjects performed a ride to exhaustion at 85% of their VO2max. Subjects receiving the carbohydrate/protein drink during the initial performance ride the day before were able to ride almost 40% longer than those receiving the carbohydrate drink during the prior exercise.


And since you didn't bother to actually back up your second assertion in any way I'll just assume you have no actual argument against what I said.

Peer reviewed data here rather than a book with no references http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11457801

for an overview of the latest research see here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14579871

there's an amino acid pool. check a physiology text.

oh and check here as well for ACSM standpoint
javascript:newWindow('/pt/re/msse/redirecthandler.htm;jsessionid=A24G7EBBpmdsGkCTZypP7oKbGcr7gdC48WXj1PyXj74yNe0F928i!1467714097!-949856032!9001!-1?name=1200&type=media','1200','width=550,height=500,location=yes,toolbar=yes,status=yes,menubar=yes,scrollbars= yes,resizable=yes')

sorry, you may need to click here and then select "position stand on nutrition and athletic performance" http://www.ms-se.com/pt/re/msse/positionstandards.htm;jsessionid=A24G7EBBpmdsGkCTZypP7oKbGcr7gdC48WXj1PyXj74yNe0F928i!1467714097!-949856032!9001!-1

ric

Other then the first abstract I couldn't find anything that contradicted what I stated previously.

In fact the acrobat document you posted stated explicitly that while protein will account for only 5% of an individuals energy during exercise protein will contribute to the maintenance of blood glucose levels ... of course that doesn't back up the assertion that it's necessary to intake a higher than normal amount of protein before or during exercise, but it also doesn't back up the assertion that it will have any negative effect, or that it wont have a positive effect.

Also, the only information in that article I could find that directly related to optimal eating time for an athlete stated that it wasn't necessary to quickly try and rebuild glucose and protein stores in the body if the athlete would not undergo another training session within 24 hours after their initial workout.

Granted I only read the 2 abstracts and half of the article, but there wasn't a lot there that really contradicted anything I said.

amongst other things they all basically state (along with other reseearch) that it's carbohydrates that are essential post exercise (not protein) and that supplemental protein isn't required, which is what i said originally.

So how much protein does a person really need? I'm a lot sceptical of the 145g figure that was posted- I realize that everyone has different needs, but I've been vegan for 7 years and I've been fine on quite a bit less than that. I heard once something about Gov. Arnold saying you only need 2/3 of your body weight in lbs/grams. i.e. a 160 lb person would need 107g of protein per day. And I'm assuming this is only really for people trying to gain muscle mass or strength.

If you're trying to build mass i've seen numbers between .8 and 1.5g / lb of mass. For a 180lbs person that equates to 145g's of protein assuming the lower of the 2 numbers.

what really pisses me off about this is that theres too much conflicting information. how the hell do i know what to do when one study says carbos, another says protien??!!

i work out with weights too, so normally after that ill have a protien shake. after a ride in the evening ( i do weights 3 X a week in the mornings..) ill have carbos with some protien. on this regiem i feel good. im by no means a nutritionist, but thats where my body seems to like it.

what really pisses me off about this is that theres too much conflicting information. how the hell do i know what to do when one study says carbos, another says protien??!!

i work out with weights too, so normally after that ill have a protien shake. after a ride in the evening ( i do weights 3 X a week in the mornings..) ill have carbos with some protien. on this regiem i feel good. im by no means a nutritionist, but thats where my body seems to like it.


G'day,

please don't start Ric on the 'benefits of weights to a trained cyclist'....it gives me a headache!,

cheers,

Hitchy

Hay Hitchy,

on the other forum i think theres a 10 odd page running argument over weights and cycling. when they start getting all technical i start to tune out....

50% seem to say yes do it, while the other 50% say no. i started not doing weights, then decidded to try them and found a huge difference. does the mumbo jumbo mean anything to me? no. do the results mean anything to me? yes!!

Also im 25 and really really really unlikley to be entering the TDF anytime this lifetime. if i loose a few minutes due to more weight then so be it. If it costs me being a B grade mountain biker instead of a C then so be it. my ego isnt that large that it would hurt. the fun of the competition is what drives me. id prefer to have a all over good figure rather than the huge legs small upper body prevalent in cycling. its my choice and its what i do.

I think Ric has some great articles on his site and ive been using them as guidlines for a while. what annoys me especially about the diet thing is that everyone and their uncle bob has done a study on it and no one can agree!!

g'day,

yeah the great weights debate is lost on me as well......Ric is very much against it...much like protein!.....I do weights but high reps with lesser weight for endurance. I can't afford to 'bulk up' too much. I don't really understand any of the technical stuff about weights, all i know is what works for me. Edmund burke in his book "serious cycling' (I'm pretty sure thats the title) recommends them...so thats good enough for me. I think Ric would argue that I might actually be better off not doing them? (sorry if I've misunderstood your position on this, Ric),

cheers,

Hitchy

briefly, trying to sum up the last several posts:

Carb requirements are huge for trained cyclists (that's those who race or could race, and train say a minimum of 75-min/day, and 3hrs/day weekend -- approximately --) the Carb requirements are 6 - 12 g per kg body mass per day. the 12g per day is what you'd expect if you were say doing a stage race, riding an awful lot every day or carb loading

protein, moderately active 0.8 - 1.2 g per kg body mass per day
Protein, regular training on bike, 1.0 - 1.5 g per kg BM/day
Protein, heavy training (bike), stage race, etc, 1.5 - 2.0 g/kg/day

Lots of weight training fits the upper end of the middle category

1) there's very little conflicting information if you read good sources of information, in fact virtually every piece of good information will say exactly the same thing. Plenty of good quality carbs with small to moderate amounts of protein and fat.

2) weights: if you a trained cyclist (i.e., you race or could race in non-track sprint/MTB downhill) then weights won't improve performance and are very likely to be detrimental

3) weights (ii): if you want to train and do weights because you think it makes you look better or whatever reason, then that's fine. there's no compulsion in life to do what i say (i wish... everyone please send a check for lots of money!!!!!). all i'm showing is that the often held belief of weights improving performance isn't true at all. what you do with the info is up to you!

4) "i'm not against protein" per se, i just said there's no need to take supplemental protein -- you can get all the protein you need in your (proper) food. trying to help you people save money and not buy stuff that basically ends up going down the toilet.

ric

Well this is one argument that just isn't going to go anywhere but i'll post one last article

http://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/magmain.php?issueID=5&pageID=66

One that includes results and references from peer reviewed journals to appease Ric this time :)

apologies, as i don't have time to thoroughly read the article or see how they've 'used' the research in making that article.

however, looking at the recap they draw, there's little or no evidence that supports such conclusions, which makes me think they've misinterpreted either by mistake or on purpose the actual research.

for e.g., it's well known that recommendations for CHO intake for recovery are 1.0 to 1.5 g/kg BM, protein isn't required to aid (see the Jentjens article i mentioned previously) recovery (or very little amounts), and BCAA and creatine definitely aren't recommended for recovery. i'm pretty sure that this is the case with glutamine too.

ric

I eat protein after workouts. My trainer/nutritionist told me to, and I found it didn't kill me or harm my body. I figure that they went to school and were athletes, and better safe than sorry. But to each their own; I like repaired muscles.

protein is not taken in during or after exercise as a supplement as much as it is a co-enzyme to uptake and re-uptake carbs and water quicker. the 4:1 ratio in accelerade is perfect for such uptake. this can be advantageous when there is a narrow window of opportunity to replentish yourself after hard efforts.

most all the racers i train with add more protein to their diets (with food) in the 1st part of the week then switch over to carbs in the latter part heading up to the big weekend rides. it had worked for me.

again, small amounts of protein help with water regulation and other nutrional needs. my understanding is that protein allows for less fluid shift and allows your body to accept carbs easier.

protein is not taken in during or after exercise as a supplement as much as it is a co-enzyme to uptake and re-uptake carbs and water quicker.


although protein does increase insulin, when enough CHO is consumed (>1.0 g CHO/kg BM) there's no greater increase in muscle glycogen (see the Jentjens, 2001 peer reviewed article i referenced before)



the 4:1 ratio in accelerade is perfect for such uptake. this can be advantageous when there is a narrow window of opportunity to replentish yourself after hard efforts.


this is marketing hype

ric

I'm a pretty big rider (5'-10", 230 lbs.), with big chest/shoulders and heavy legs. I love to climb and need strong legs to push my frame up hills, and I ride many rides 50-100 miles long. I replace protein and carbs after each ride, and eat plenty of steaks and veggies ... I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but the debate is silly. Muscle is protein it takes muscle to maintain muscle, along with plenty of carbs (low carb diets are foolish) to keep the body healthy, it's that simple.

Maintain ... Replenish is the best way all around.

I also lift over the winter to maintain muscle ...

I live by what has proven to work for me ... and for many of the people I ride with, and watch train and race at the the local velodrome ... this simple plan works for them as well.

Well, if you don't believe Ric Stern (I do- he's an authority, after all), you could also reference pp. 214-216 of Chris Carmichael's "The Ultimate Ride". He supports what Ric says.

i believe that by focusing on protein, i cast aside the unnessary fats that creep into my diet. so inadvertantly i am filling myself with protein and not fat. when i eat protein, i release my fluids (pee a lot) and can keep my weight in check. getting rid of fluid from my legs during replentishment and satisfying my craving for bad fats is worth it for me, so a protein supplement like accelerade works and is a great upgrade when compared to other drinks (except the taste)

Today it's one thing tomorrow it's another such is the story through time. I thought I would give Endurox a try and so far I believe it works for me. Please believe me I am skeptical of everything so I feel as though placebo is not in affect here. In fact after one of my interval workouts a few weeks ago I purposely did not take it and felt soreness the next day. I don't know if that is from the protein or the fact that Endurox has a butt load of Vit E in it but what ever it is it works for me. Any comments please? The stuff is horribly expensive though :(

a waste of time, and not needed afterwards either, or just in very small amounts (e.g., ~ 10 g).

Hi Rick,

I was perusing your site, cyclecoach, and found that you do recommend protein for recovery. I'm curious why you're taking a firm stance against protein in this thread.

I'm referencing the following:
www.cyclecoach.com
go to the recovery article and then to the heading now the important bit

I especially like the section in the recovery article where you state that recovery begins before the ride and continues through the ride and to the end. I find that a very insightful way of blanketing the issue of recovery. Thanks for the insight.

thanks for pointing that out. certainly, like anyone new ideas and theories come to light and practices can change. i'll update that article.

however, to clarify, i'm not saying you don't need protein, because obviously, you do -- the important thing to remember is that protein supplements are a waste of time.

certainly, the body of research shows that when enough CHO is ingested post exercise (1.0 to 1.5 g CHO/kg BM) then protein doesn't increase glycogen storage, even though insulin is stimulated more.

ric

Thanks for the info, Ric.

a waste of time, and not needed afterwards either, or just in very small amounts (e.g., ~ 10 g).

aim for 30 - 60g of carb per hour of riding and after intense session, aim to consume 1.5 g of carb per kg body mass within 30mins of finishing (i.e., if you weigh 70 kg, use 105 g carb). ensure you have plenty of fluids (1.5 x's your weight loss) and ensure that it has plenty of electrolytes in to prevent it being excreted.

assuming that you're either a vegetarian or eat a normal mixed diet, and your weight is constant (i.e., you're not loosing a lot of weight) then protein needs will be met with your diet and supplements aren't required

ric



I think your source of information is a bit askew....in fact the exact opposite is true. Your body is more receptive and will absorb the vital nutrients including protein right after a hard workout. The magical 30 min time frame is crucial.

I think your source of information is a bit askew....in fact the exact opposite is true. Your body is more receptive and will absorb the vital nutrients including protein right after a hard workout. The magical 30 min time frame is crucial.

i'd say my data is correct! if you don't believe me, then you're more than welcome to do a Pub-Med search, check the ACSM guidelines, and look at various scientific journals. As this is my job, and as someone who does research in the field of exercise physiology/sports science, as well as coaching professionally at TT1 to recreational level, i'm guessing i have a vague idea of what i'm talking about!!!

the up to 60-mins window is crucial, especially if you're exercising within the next 24 h, and it is important to have dietary protein, however, protein supplements aren't required for the vast majority of people who exercise, including those at the upper echelon of the sport (i.e., TdF). post exercise, it's CHO input that's required, and it's also CHO that helps prevent e.g., URTI and other infections and boosts immune system, as well as replenishing glycogen storage, and thus promoting faster recovery.

ric

i'd say my data is correct! if you don't believe me, then you're more than welcome to do a Pub-Med search, check the ACSM guidelines, and look at various scientific journals. As this is my job, and as someone who does research in the field of exercise physiology/sports science, as well as coaching professionally at TT1 to recreational level, i'm guessing i have a vague idea of what i'm talking about!!!

the up to 60-mins window is crucial, especially if you're exercising within the next 24 h, and it is important to have dietary protein, however, protein supplements aren't required for the vast majority of people who exercise, including those at the upper echelon of the sport (i.e., TdF). post exercise, it's CHO input that's required, and it's also CHO that helps prevent e.g., URTI and other infections and boosts immune system, as well as replenishing glycogen storage, and thus promoting faster recovery.

ric
What is CHO? is that Carbohydrates?
What is your opinion on Vit E?

apologies, was in a rush! CHO is carbohydrate. i can't recall seeing any startlingly good info on vit E.

ric

The problem with all this stuff is that people look at it as black and white - carbs good, protein bad. It also brings an emotional reaction from people, as can be amply seen in the responses of both Ric Stern and Moistfly. Worse still is the fact that few researchers properly follow the scientific method (eg. attempt to prove their null hypothesis first) when performing studies.

For me, protein is *very* important. I have a protein shake (with carbs in it) immediately following all of my rides. I do not seem to get along well with protein drinks during rides/races, and I suspect that might have something to do with the work my body has to put in to digest it.

My optimal recovery program is to ingest 200g of protein in a day (I weigh 165). When I do this, regardless of carbohydrate intake, I generally feel great the next day and/or the day after. I don't do this often, only when I have an important race. Let's face it, we get more than enough carbohydrate in our diets, but if you watch the labels on what you eat, it is damn hard to get .8-1.2g of protein per pound of bodyweight.

2 days before a race, i ingest lots of protein and eat red meat - something I otherwsie do only rarely. The day before the race I eat lots of carbs. I seem to require lots of sodium while riding in order to keep water in my cells, so I use Cytomax (tropical fruit flavor, the others are horrible) in one bottle and water in another on long rides/races. Post workout I ingest 45g or so of protein and about the same amont of carbohydrate, unless I am in a weight loss phase - in which case I reduce the carbs and the total caloric intake.

The problem with all this stuff is that people look at it as black and white - carbs good, protein bad. It also brings an emotional reaction from people, as can be amply seen in the responses of both Ric Stern and Moistfly. Worse still is the fact that few researchers properly follow the scientific method (eg. attempt to prove their null hypothesis first) when performing studies.


an "emmotional" response.... eh!!? what? I have merely quoted the scientific research available on the subject as a professional in the field.

when i read papers, i look at the methodology to determine the quality of the research.




For me, protein is *very* important. I have a protein shake (with carbs in it) immediately following all of my rides. I do not seem to get along well with protein drinks during rides/races, and I suspect that might have something to do with the work my body has to put in to digest it.


most people perform better with carbs at the correct solution



My optimal recovery program is to ingest 200g of protein in a day (I weigh 165). When I do this, regardless of carbohydrate intake, I generally feel great the next day and/or the day after.


the upper limit for protein intake is 2.0 g/kg bodymass/day. that's 150 g for you. more than this and it's been hypothesized that it could cause potentially serious problems with your kidneys.



I don't do this often, only when I have an important race. Let's face it, we get more than enough carbohydrate in our diets, but if you watch the labels on what you eat, it is damn hard to get .8-1.2g of protein per pound of bodyweight.


in general, you have this the wrong way round. countless research on both athletes and sedentary people show people often consume way too much protein, and too little carbohydrate.

your suggested protein intake is incorrect, these figures should be for moderately active people per *kg* body mass, not per lb. In other words you're suggesting people should consume twice the recommended amount.




2 days before a race, i ingest lots of protein and eat red meat - something I otherwsie do only rarely. The day before the race I eat lots of carbs. I seem to require lots of sodium while riding in order to keep water in my cells, so I use Cytomax (tropical fruit flavor, the others are horrible) in one bottle and water in another on long rides/races. Post workout I ingest 45g or so of protein and about the same amont of carbohydrate, unless I am in a weight loss phase - in which case I reduce the carbs and the total caloric intake.

it's more important to consume adequate amounts of carbohydrate. Every one requires lots of sodium to help transport across the gut and prevent hyponatraemia.

post exercise, 45 g protein is way too high, and 45 g CHO is less than half the recommended amount (1.0 to 1.5 g CHO/kg body mass).

ric

an "emmotional" response.... eh!!? what? I have merely quoted the scientific research available on the subject as a professional in the field.

when i read papers, i look at the methodology to determine the quality of the research.


Ah, but your response to my post appears emotional. Maybe I'm wrong, but you must realize that nutrition and diet - for some reason I don't quite comprehend - are an inflammatory subject for those who hold certain strong convictions.

And you can't look at methodology in a paper to determine quality, there are too many X-factors. Like where the researcher's grants come from. And what the researcher's preconceptions are. You can perhaps find the ones that are blatantly skewed, if you can be certain of your own lack of bias, but that's about it.

Finally, the only way a researcher is going to definitively show something is to elucidate a mechanism and directly show it working. Epdemiological studies - "out of 100 people sampled, n% showed X response" - are inherently flawed and cannot be considered proof of anything. And when I say that, I am indicating statistical reasons, methodological issues notwithstanding. For instance, by performing on a large sample, one loses vital information about an individual; and even by performing a regression, one is making strong assumptions about one's sample.

Why is there an extra 'm' in your spelling of 'emotional'? It's not from my post ...



the upper limit for protein intake is 2.0 g/kg bodymass/day. that's 150 g for you. more than this and it's been hypothesized that it could cause potentially serious problems with your kidneys.

Kidney damage is associated with water intake as well. I didn't mention I drink a gallon a day normally, more when I raise my protein intake. Fiber is also important for the colon, so that goes up too.



in general, you have this the wrong way round. countless research on both athletes and sedentary people show people often consume way too much protein, and too little carbohydrate.

And there's plenty of research to the contrary, which proves my point above. In fact, most of what I've heard has *been* to the contrary.

But anyway, if it were so obvious or cut-and-dry, there wouldn't be a discussion about it on this board. Your point is well-taken that you do not believe a high protein intake is merited - mine is that I disagree, and that experience has taught me otherwise. For me, that experience is the final arbiter, having tried it both ways. But I can accept that you disagree.



it's more important to consume adequate amounts of carbohydrate. Every one requires lots of sodium to help transport across the gut and prevent hyponatraemia.

I actually require more than most, as my sweat has a relatively high level of sodium in it.



post exercise, 45 g protein is way too high, and 45 g CHO is less than half the recommended amount (1.0 to 1.5 g CHO/kg body mass).

To illustrate my point a bit further, where did these numbers come from? Are they a direct calculation of some organ's capacity to metabolize protein or carbohydrate? If so, then I will concede. If, however, they are the result of a statistical analysis taken from a large sample, I don't buy it - these numbers are then only useful as a guideline, and then only with caveats.

Oh, one more thing - I have suggested nothing. I have merely stated what *I* do for nutrition, and I guarantee that others will have different requirements.

Ah, but your response to my post appears emotional. Maybe I'm wrong, but you must realize that nutrition and diet - for some reason I don't quite comprehend - are an inflammatory subject for those who hold certain strong convictions.


indeed, nutrition is somewhat akin to religion in the response that it can provoke in some people.




And you can't look at methodology in a paper to determine quality, there are too many X-factors. Like where the researcher's grants come from. And what the researcher's preconceptions are. You can perhaps find the ones that are blatantly skewed, if you can be certain of your own lack of bias, but that's about it.


who funds a study has to be disclosed within the research



Finally, the only way a researcher is going to definitively show something is to elucidate a mechanism and directly show it working. Epdemiological studies - "out of 100 people sampled, n% showed X response" - are inherently flawed and cannot be considered proof of anything. And when I say that, I am indicating statistical reasons, methodological issues notwithstanding. For instance, by performing on a large sample, one loses vital information about an individual; and even by performing a regression, one is making strong assumptions about one's sample.


i take it then, you haven't read any actual sports science/exercise physiology research, then.



Why is there an extra 'm' in your spelling of 'emotional'? It's not from my post ...


because of a typo, or i can't spell!



And there's plenty of research to the contrary, which proves my point above. In fact, most of what I've heard has *been* to the contrary.


i don't know what research you read, but you'll find that my thoughts mirror the vast majority of research in the field of exercise physiology.




But anyway, if it were so obvious or cut-and-dry, there wouldn't be a discussion about it on this board. Your point is well-taken that you do not believe a high protein intake is merited - mine is that I disagree, and that experience has taught me otherwise. For me, that experience is the final arbiter, having tried it both ways. But I can accept that you disagree.


there's a discussion because the general (within the population, not the scientific community) feeling is that in many western countries we have been conditioned to believe that we need very large amounts of protein, or that extra protein is associated with improved athletic performance. however, when research is done, this isn't the case, and i believe that in many non-western countries there is not as much reliance on this extra protein requirements.




I actually require more than most, as my sweat has a relatively high level of sodium in it.


this fits my point or the scientific communities thought



To illustrate my point a bit further, where did these numbers come from? Are they a direct calculation of some organ's capacity to metabolize protein or carbohydrate? If so, then I will concede. If, however, they are the result of a statistical analysis taken from a large sample, I don't buy it - these numbers are then only useful as a guideline, and then only with caveats.


lots of research has shown the need for replenishing muscle and liver glycogen. the upper limit of replenishment is the figure i quoted. there appears to be no further increase in muscle or liver glycogen storage above these numbers.




Oh, one more thing - I have suggested nothing. I have merely stated what *I* do for nutrition, and I guarantee that others will have different requirements.

of course, but people don't tend to read it like that, they assume (rightly or wrongly) that you're suggesting guidelines for them. me, i'm just trying to point you in the right direction.

cheers
ric

i take it then, you haven't read any actual sports science/exercise physiology research, then.

I certainly have, hence my criticism. I didn't say no studies elucidate mechanisms, but I will say it seems to be considered aceptable to publish results without the direct testing of a mechanism. Often there is speculation as to what the mechanism might be, but that's a different matter. And I'm not blaming the researchers - the system they're studying is very complex. I do however fault the rigid application of the results, given the uncertainties involved, which are often too difficult to even quantify properly.



because of a typo, or i can't spell!

No, no, I don't care about that. I was just trying to figure out if you were accusing *me* of misspelling the word, since you had it in quotes.



there's a discussion because the general (within the population, not the scientific community) feeling is that in many western countries we have been conditioned to believe that we need very large amounts of protein, or that extra protein is associated with improved athletic performance. however, when research is done, this isn't the case, and i believe that in many non-western countries there is not as much reliance on this extra protein requirements.

Sorry, but there's a discussion because there is ample evidence to back up both sides of the argument. Yes, there is a trend in the US recently to promote high protein intakes, a fad if you will; but I disagree that we are an overwhelmingly protein conscious society historically.

You evidently feel that the RDA protein intake of .8g per lb is "correct," and that's fine. But not to acknowledge that there are conflicting schools of thought is to do everyone here a disservice, since you are considered an expert on this forum.



this fits my point or the scientific communities thought

?? I'm not disagreeing with you on the importance of sodium. I am saying that it tends to be more important to me than it does to the people I train with, since I *personally* sweat more salt than anyone else I've ever ridden with. And this reinforces *my* point, which is that individual requirements can vary greatly.



lots of research has shown the need for replenishing muscle and liver glycogen. the upper limit of replenishment is the figure i quoted. there appears to be no further increase in muscle or liver glycogen storage above these numbers.

But how is this measured and calculated? I suspect some sort of inferred measurement (because the liver is too sensitive to directly probe) and I suspect a sample of individuals with a Bell curve/Gaussian fit - or perhaps a Levy or lognormal distribution in the presence of correlations. If I am correct, there will be large error bars on the inferred measurement; and any correlations that might be in the sample make the performance of a linear regression flat-out wrong. And then, even if we got past all of that, there is still the issue of the Central Limit Theorem, which tells you that when you calculated that curve, you got the distribution for the group and very specifically not the individual - so on an individual basis, the results are inapplicable!

Allow me to interject some outside information from a source non-biased to cycling or this post. Before reading the following link and forming an opinion solely from the site it comes from, take note of the references from which the article has cited the information included within. The article link follows the sources I copied here.


1. Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology; 20(4), 480-486, 1995.
2. Meeting - Canadian Society for Exercise Physiology; 2000.
3. Foersvarsmedicin; 3, 85-99, 1967.
4. Acta Physiologica Scandinavica; 71, 334-346, 1965.
5. Sports Med; 21(1), 7-17, 1996.
6. Journal of Applied Physiology; 48, 624-629, 1980.
7. Journal of Applied Physiology; 88, 386-392, 2000.
8. Nutrition in Sport (textbook); Chapter 6, 97-111, 2000.
9. Sports Med; 21(2), 98-118, 1996.
10. Journal of Applied Physiology; 74, 1848-1855, 1993.
11. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition; 72, 96-105, 2000.
12. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition; 72, 106-111, 2000.
13. Nutrition in Sport (textbook); Chapters 6 and 7, 85-111, 2000.
14. Journal of Applied Physiology; 65, 2018-2023, 1988.
15. Journal of Applied Physiology; 66, 720-726, 1989.
16. Diabetes; 48(5), 949-957, 1999.
17. Journal of Applied Physiology; 82, 1882-1888, 1997.
18. Journal of Clinical Investigation; 54, 1487-1502, 1966.
19. Pharmacological Research Communications; 13, 475-486, 1981.
20. American Journal of Physiology; 277(Endocrinol. Metab. 40), E617-E623, 1999.
21. Journal of Clinical Investigation; 95, 811-819, 1995.
22. American Journal of Physiology; 268 (Endocrinol. Metab), E514-E520, 1995.
23. American Journal of Physiology; 273 (Endocrinol. Metab.), E122-E129, 1997.
24. American Journal of Physiology; 276 (Endocrinol. Metab.), E628-634, 1999.
25. Acta Physiologia Scandinavica; 162(3), 377-387, 1998.
26. Journal of Nutritional Biochemistry; 10, 89-95, 1999.
27. Journal of Nutrition; 130, 139-145, 2000.
28. Sports Medicine; 27(6), 347-358, 1999.


http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/puzzle_2.htm

reading the latest review paper on this and surrounding topics, you'll see that the research matches what i previously stated, i.e., 1.0 to 1.5 g CHO post exercise. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14579871

additionally, if you read the paper by Jentjens that i originally quoted, will show that although protein with the carb increased the insulin response, there was no further increase in glycogen storage with a pro and CHO supplement.

ric

i'd say my data is correct! if you don't believe me, then you're more than welcome to do a Pub-Med search, check the ACSM guidelines, and look at various scientific journals. As this is my job, and as someone who does research in the field of exercise physiology/sports science, as well as coaching professionally at TT1 to recreational level, i'm guessing i have a vague idea of what i'm talking about!!!

the up to 60-mins window is crucial, especially if you're exercising within the next 24 h, and it is important to have dietary protein, however, protein supplements aren't required for the vast majority of people who exercise, including those at the upper echelon of the sport (i.e., TdF). post exercise, it's CHO input that's required, and it's also CHO that helps prevent e.g., URTI and other infections and boosts immune system, as well as replenishing glycogen storage, and thus promoting faster recovery.

ric


Okay - 60 min, not 30, fine.... and thanks for the restatement of what I believe I said...

weren't you suggesting that protein supplementation was required (it isn't), and that carbs weren't that important (which they are important)? if i've misquoted you apologies

ric

weren't you suggesting that protein supplementation was required (it isn't), and that carbs weren't that important (which they are important)? if i've misquoted you apologies

ric


No. In fact it is my understanding that many people take the position that cyclists don't really benefit from protein supplements, which I am not sure I agree with. I simply became aware of the tremendous benefit of quick nutrition after workouts as a soccer coach. During weekend tournaments with 2-3 games a day it was obvious that fruits and other "quality foods" would speed the recovery of the players......