Professional Cycling For the Fans - LeMond criticizes Armstrong?

I read it here:

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2577428

I have tremendous respect for LeMond, and I really like him as a person. If he's saying something like this, it really leaves me wondering if there isn't something going on with Armstrong, mainly because LeMond really is the nicest guy.... I haven't heard him saying bad things about anyone.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Koffee

It was reported today the Greg said in an interview that "He didn't know how much longer Lance could keep up his facade". He was referring to the doping allegations in the book.

Are there past issues between the two? I have to say I was suprised to hear this from LeMond.

There has been a "slight" feud between these two for awhile.

LeMond has always said that Lance has to be doping. I guess that means he was doping when he won also. Idiot. I don't know if he's bitter because Lance will overshadow him in American Cycling history or what. Seems strange.

I read it here:

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2577428

I have tremendous respect for LeMond, and I really like him as a person. If he's saying something like this, it really leaves me wondering if there isn't something going on with Armstrong, mainly because LeMond really is the nicest guy.... I haven't heard him saying bad things about anyone.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Koffee

We started threads at the same time. Great minds ya know...

I was surprised to hear this from LeMond. He has always seemed very professional, not that his comments were over the top. It does make me wonder a little. If it comes out that it is true, it will be a HUGE blow for cycling in America. I can only imagine the extent of the damage if the charges are correct. If he is up to something it must be pretty sophisticated because he knows about the strict testing.

Well, here is the clincher quote for me:

"I was a big supporter of Lance the first year that he won the Tour," LeMond was quoted as saying. "But with all these stories it's difficult to stay a supporter."

I would think he would only speak out against Armstrong if he had first hand knowledge about him doping. From the quote above, he is simply basing all of this on what the media is reporting/questioning. That doesn't sit well with me. I have lost a lot of respect for LeMond with that quote. He is simply adding to the media frenzy, based on what's been said in the media! That's not right!

We may never know if Armstrong has/hasn't doped. But, if you have the stature of Greg LeMond, you should keep your MOUTH SHUT unless you have absolute first hand knowledge of wrong-doing.

"I was a big supporter of Lance the first year that he won the Tour," LeMond was quoted as saying. "But with all these stories it's difficult to stay a supporter."

When in the hell did LeMond support Lance. He was one of the first ones to jump on the doping accusation bandwagon when the first round of accusations came out. This is a longstanding "feud." I'm not sure why Greg would be so adamant about it, but it dissapoints me to a degree. If it is ever proven that Lance did use drugs, then I suppose Greg will be vindicated and can put an asterisk next to Lance's wins and still feel that he is the greatest of American cycling. But if he's so sure that Lance has to be doping to win the Tour so many times, what does that say about his wins?

Greg has said this in the past. But he retracted his comments...Let's see, who owns LeMond bikes? What bike does Lance ride? Let's see how long before Greg gets a call from Waterloo. :D In anycase, Greg need a little attention.

In case you haven't heard, Greg Lemond made an accusatory statement that LAnce was likely guilty of drug abuse. I say boycott Greg Lemond and all of his products, NOW!
Lemond is a has-been and knows it, and is grasping at a desperate straw to remain "important" rather than "impotent".

...Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Koffee

This conversation may explain why Lemond is taking the tack he's taken. Click on the link "here": http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=507368&highlite=Lance+Lemond#post507368

That conversation makes me think that LeMond might be making sense here.
But I have heard him say plenty of wild things about how he would have won more Tours... in ways that makes him sound like he may have a problem with another US cyclist becoming more successful.

Yes, we've had the discussion about that woman who said she was ordered by Lance to go back and retrieve the drugs from his hotel room. We also know Lance is vigorously denying it, and he's suing the author because of the claims made, which is so much wose since this is happening right up to and during the Tour. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I always assumed Lance was being tested six ways from Sunday anyway- I just don't see what drug would miss so many tests, especially the surprise tests and the tests performed when he's voluntarily gone in and asked them to test him to prove his innocence. If there's something there, it's a mighty powerful drug that no one knows about yet.

Koffee

wWell if it is true that will be sad if it is true and he does not get caught think what it will do to him to live with a fake victory.. If he did not hey may suffer with all of the accusations.

LeMond is a French name so it's natural that he dislikes Lance. All French hate Lance, right? Or is it just the French media?

Yes, we've had the discussion about that woman who said she was ordered by Lance to go back and retrieve the drugs from his hotel room. Koffee

If you go to the link "here" in the above post, it will take you to a transcript of a phone conversation between Lance and Lemond in which, according to Lemond's wife, Lance insinuates that Lemond used EPO and essentially tries to bait Lemond into admitting it. It has nothing to do with Emma O'Reilly.

What link?

Whoops, sorry. I got it.

Thanks!

Koffee

What link?

You need an espresso this morning. :)

Click on the word "here" that is underlined. :)

Yes, we've had the discussion about that woman who said she was ordered by Lance to go back and retrieve the drugs from his hotel room. We also know Lance is vigorously denying it, and he's suing the author because of the claims made, which is so much wose since this is happening right up to and during the Tour. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I always assumed Lance was being tested six ways from Sunday anyway- I just don't see what drug would miss so many tests, especially the surprise tests and the tests performed when he's voluntarily gone in and asked them to test him to prove his innocence. If there's something there, it's a mighty powerful drug that no one knows about yet.

Koffee

Yes, Lance is asked to pee after stages, during the off-season, at his home in Austin by UCI officials who arrive unannounced.

Common sense would dictate that with all this scrutiny plus all the former and present team members who have ridden with Lance there would be a bigger "smoking gun" than this weak journalistic effort by Walsh
with no real supporting evidence.

That's the problem, Don. That word is not underlined in my browser, and there's nothing clickable in that post you did just before I asked. But I went to the post you did right above it and clicked on the other link you provided: http://bikeforums.net/showthread.ph...mond#post507368

Did you have an additional link?

Koffee

LeMond raced in the late 80's and Early 90's Every team was on the dope back then. It had been going on for over 80 years at this point.

The team doctors job was not to hand out asprin, it was to medically prepare the riders for the race. Delgado tested positive, so was his number one domestique Indurain clean? If the Spanish were doping, and beating the French, would the French not dope?

Fignon never tested positive did he? But a year ago he stated "Everyone talks about doping this days, maybe I did dope, but I did what I had to do. If I die before I'm 50, thats my problem"

Brunyeel and Ekimov were racing then too, and It's not like the Belgians or Russians have a very good reputation when it comes to competing clean.

In 2001 the 2nd Stage started in France, and ended in Belgium. The winner of the stage recieved and audience with the King, and a $20,000 diamond. As the peleton approached the border, the Flemish Government told the UCI that all post race durg testing would be conducted by Flemish Labs, and not the UCI. This did not sit well with the UCI, as the Flemish labs were not equiped to test for EPO. None of that really mattered, as Mark Wauters, a Belgian, won the stage, and the Yellow Jersey. Not only was the stage winner NOT tested, no Belgian riders were tested that day.

what a strange story in that link, doesn't sound very believable from either side.

I forgot about them owning LeMond, that's funny. Seems like more reason for him to be jealous.

That's the problem, Don. That word is not underlined in my browser, and there's nothing clickable in that post you did just before I asked. But I went to the post you did right above it and clicked on the other link you provided: http://bikeforums.net/showthread.ph...mond#post507368

Did you have an additional link?

Koffee


www.cyclingforums.com/t131191.html

You have to read through a bunch of crap posts to get to the english translation.

LeMond raced in the late 80's and Early 90's Every team was on the dope back then. It had been going on for over 80 years at this point.

The team doctors job was not to hand out asprin, it was to medically prepare the riders for the race. Delgado tested positive, so was his number one domestique Indurain clean? If the Spanish were doping, and beating the French, would the French not dope?

Fignon never tested positive did he? But a year ago he stated "Everyone talks about doping this days, maybe I did dope, but I did what I had to do. If I die before I'm 50, thats my problem"

Brunyeel and Ekimov were racing then too, and It's not like the Belgians or Russians have a very good reputation when it comes to competing clean.

In 2001 the 2nd Stage started in France, and ended in Belgium. The winner of the stage recieved and audience with the King, and a $20,000 diamond. As the peleton approached the border, the Flemish Government told the UCI that all post race durg testing would be conducted by Flemish Labs, and not the UCI. This did not sit well with the UCI, as the Flemish labs were not equiped to test for EPO. None of that really mattered, as Mark Wauters, a Belgian, won the stage, and the Yellow Jersey. Not only was the stage winner NOT tested, no Belgian riders were tested that day.

Personally, I do not buy in to the "guilt by association" theory with Lemond.

In case you haven't heard, Greg Lemond made an accusatory statement that LAnce was likely guilty of drug abuse. I say boycott Greg Lemond and all of his products, NOW!
Lemond is a has-been and knows it, and is grasping at a desperate straw to remain "important" rather than "impotent".


"Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret," LeMond told France's Le Monde newspaper in an interview published Thursday.
"I don't know how he can continue to convince everybody of his innocence," the daily quoted Lemond as saying. Fellow American LeMond who won the Tour in 1986, 1989 and 1990.


Complete story here: http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2577428

It would be a real kicker if it turns out he is doping. Judging from Lance's statement "we do not use illegal doping products" makes me wonder if he/USP are using substances that have yet been banned, or ones that are not even on the sanctioning body's radar screen. I still must give LaMond some credit as he is certainly more tuned into this than I am.

I'm sure this thread will move to the right spot, correct?

Tabloid journalism at its best.

What surprises me is that I thought both part of the Trek family. Waterloo can't be happy with this can they? Does Greg Lemond still have personal interest in Lemond Bikes?

Yes, we've had the discussion about that woman who said she was ordered by Lance to go back and retrieve the drugs from his hotel room. We also know Lance is vigorously denying it, and he's suing the author because of the claims made, which is so much wose since this is happening right up to and during the Tour. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I always assumed Lance was being tested six ways from Sunday anyway- I just don't see what drug would miss so many tests, especially the surprise tests and the tests performed when he's voluntarily gone in and asked them to test him to prove his innocence. If there's something there, it's a mighty powerful drug that no one knows about yet.

Koffee


Theres a ton of drugs that are known to be performance enhancing yet still undectable, Growthe Hormones, but Human and Equine, Repoxygen, Actovegin, RSR-13, and the only reasons we know about these, is because they have shown up in searches.

Wiretaps have picked up on CERA, an experimental drug from Roche that stimulates red blood cell production in the spinal cord. Roche is directing research toward use in anemias associated with cancer and kidney disease, but Italian investigators believe it's already in use by pro riders.

CERA may be the “new kind of EPO”

The story quotes a French professor, who says a single course of CERA would be enough to last through a 3-week tour, where EPO would require multiple dosages during a long race.

Another professor maintained that the level of the drug in urine would be so low as to be undetectable.




Here is some more info on the Teams doctors I pulled from the Web.

Procycling has a story quoting the French newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche (henceforth JDD), which got its hands on the drug submissions of the Tour teams.

Before the Tour, every team is supposed to present a list of all prescription and non-prescription medicines being used by its riders. According to JDD, the average team from outside of France reported 80 different products.

Reassuringly, none of the products declared to the AFSSAP is categorically banned at the Tour. Less comforting is the news that, in addition to familiar household medicines like paracetamol, antihistamine and vitamins, the AFSSAP received and approved requests for ‘heavy’ products whose conventional application is difficult to reconcile with the needs of an endurance athlete. Fructose diphosphate, a treatment for respiratory disorders, various diuretics, coronary dilators and products for the detoxification of the liver belong firmly in the latter category.
One of the more interesting declared prescriptions was for pentoxifylline which, according to its website, "is used to improve blood flow in patients with circulation problems to reduce aching, cramping, and tiredness in the hands and feet. It works by decreasing the thickness (viscosity) of blood. This change allows your blood to flow more easily, especially in the small blood vessels of the hands and feet."

One team declared 155 products.

Also of note is that David Millar named the Euskaltel Team doctor Jesus Losa as his Source of EPO. Guess who didn't show up at start of the Tour, and I don't mean David Millar.

Not only did the team doctor not show, but Euskaltel is a rider short this year becuase Gorka Gonzales tested over 50% hematocrit, but negative for EPO. The excuse was the usual stomach issues and diarreah induced de-hydration. Remember, they can only detect EPO within 3 days of its use.

Interesting stuff, Smoothie. Any more info?

When in the hell did LeMond support Lance. He was one of the first ones to jump on the doping accusation bandwagon when the first round of accusations came out. This is a longstanding "feud."

No doubt. I think LeMond thinks that if he had to dope to win, one cannot win le Tour without chemicals. Here's more from the fued:

Kathy LeMond takes her shot (http://bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4253)

But is it a fake victory if everybody dopes?

yes. because you did not do it yourself. if you can't win with the body you have you are not meant to win. it would be a case of who had the best drug pusher (G)

yes. because you did not do it yourself.

No. That is just an opinion. You could say the same thing about IV hydration, high energy drinks, proper diet, altitude tents...

I don't know. But it sounds like a good answer to me. Too many young people hurting them putting stuff in there bodies that should not be there. we just had a high school kid fall over dead last year from performance enhancers. His sport was football.

Interesting stuff, Smoothie. Any more info?


yeah sure, The maximum allowable ratio between Testosterone amd epitestosterone is 6:1 per WADA

The average T/E ratio for most people is usually 1:1. Riders used to inject their testosterone, but the body would up the estrogen production to counter it, these spikes were a dead give away of testasterone abuse. Now Athletes use a transdermal patch availabe at any phamacy, this avoids the spikes, and can easily be discarded.

If Lances single testicle is not able to produce enough Testosterone, his doctor could monitor him and control his levels for him. All the way up to a 6:1 T/E ratio.

I doubt it will be a huge blow to cycling in the US.
Geez, don't you know: "all the athletes do it?"


We started threads at the same time. Great minds ya know...

I was surprised to hear this from LeMond. He has always seemed very professional, not that his comments were over the top. It does make me wonder a little. If it comes out that it is true, it will be a HUGE blow for cycling in America. I can only imagine the extent of the damage if the charges are correct. If he is up to something it must be pretty sophisticated because he knows about the strict testing.

yes. because you did not do it yourself. if you can't win with the body you have you are not meant to win. it would be a case of who had the best drug pusher (G)

That's one way to look at it.

Another way is that if everyone boosted themselves by x%, then it cancels out and the best man still wins.

I don't know. But it sounds like a good answer to me. Too many young people hurting them putting stuff in there bodies that should be there. we just had a high school kid fall over dead last year from performance enhancers. His sport was football.

Exactly! Highschool Kids, Olympic Shot Putters, etc... there's not a lot of glory there, regardless of how much you win, but they are doping.

Now take a couple of hundred pro cyclists with no more than a highschool education, some not even that, dangle hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars a year in front of them, add in the adulation of an entire country, and the possibility of being a legend. Remember the fact that everyone they meet during their development came up through the same corrupt doping system as they are. Realize the fact that the UCI is run by formers racers, and fought tooth and nail to get a lower minimum sentance for offenders than WADA would agree to. Understand that the riders that came before them doped, and the next younger generation is doping and coming to take their jobs, why is it such a surprise?

Don't be surprised if the Cops raid the Hotels this weekend, Jean Marie LeBlanc has already stated that he expects it.

As I stated before in this thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=56318 it seems like doping is just part of the cycling culture. The only way to have "fair" competitions would be to legalize and regulate the use of certain substances under the supervision of doctors. Of course it won't happen, because it would "send the wrong message." So instead, we'll never know which victories (if any) are clean ones.

I find it sad that the sport we all know and love has such a bad reputation. The worst part is that the general public only reads the tabloid articles. People will start to assume all cyclists are doping.
I like to think inocent until proven guilty. I also think that as soon as Lance retires there will be no interest in his habits. They will start going after the next great cyclist.

If Lances single testicle is not able to produce enough Testosterone, his doctor could monitor him and control his levels for him. All the way up to a 6:1 T/E ratio.

Actually, the one compensates for the loss, even in sperm production. In some cases, it overcompensates. Like a blind man with hyper sensitive hearing, Lance might have an overactive testicle.

Now take a couple of hundred pro cyclists with no more than a highschool education, some not even that, dangle hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars a year in front of them, add in the adulation of an entire country, and the possibility of being a legend.

The fact is Lance post cancer doesn't fit this mold. He has the humility of almost dieing. Unless his books are total frauds, he had to be coaxed into racing again. He could have moved on with his life and doesn't IMHO have the "win at all costs" mentality that a younger, more naive rider might have.

Regarding Mrs. LeMonds comments, they are a second hand account of a telephone conversation (to my knowledge). Not what I would call accurate information.

Finally, Bob Rolls comments yesterday about Virenque’s win and the question’s of whether he is still doping made me think of an Ask Bob Roll question:

Mr. Bob Roll, can you assure me and your audience that you never took illegal substances to enhance your performance as a professional bicycle racer? :D

-murray

The original rift between the two started when the public learned of the relationship of LA and Dr. Ferrari. At that time Greg stated (I'm paraphrasing here) the he felt that if the two were connected then Lance must be doping. Of course Lance didn't like that and the two have remained on less then fiendly terms.

In the May 2004 Cycle Sport Le Mond is asked about this and his relationship with Lance. He states that he knew nothing factual and that his statements were a "knee jerk" reaction to what he had read about Michele Ferrari. He made a retraction and in his works "everyone is happy". I get the impression that he and Lance are still not best buddies. As we all know Lance isn't one to forgive and forget easily.

Whatever the case I feel it is unproffesional for anyone to state, write, or insinuate that anyone is cheating with out hard evidence. LA is the most tested athelete on the planet and if he'd been doping it would have been found out by now. Second with the massive celebraty that Lance has someone, with proof, would have surfaced by now. If you are doing something that illegal tha amount of money to be made by "ratting" them out is too big for someone on the fringe not take advantage of.

Exactly my point, 2Roadies. LeMond has a responsibility to his sport to NOT continue with unfounded accusations. It doesn't matter whether he thinks LA is doping or not, but he should keep his mouth shut unless he has FIRST-HAND KNOWLEDGE of doping by LA! It's not about defending LA (I don't know whether he dopes or not), it's about defending the sport of cycling. The more he makes statements like this, the more he hurts the sport.

The complete interview in Le Monde has some more interesting tidbits. Here is the link: http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3248,36-372691,0.html. Seems that the feud goes back to at least 2001.

LA probably needs EPO so his blood isn't deficient considering the amount of blood those people probably draw from him.

LeMond is a French name so it's natural that he dislikes Lance. All French hate Lance, right? Or is it just the French media?

I am French and a big Armstrong supporter. I would love to see him win #6. I am just coming back from a trip home, the Lance/drugs discussions were very lively. I felt very lonely trying to defend his integrity.
I hope all these accusations are wrong, I would be very, very disapointed otherwise as many other individuals in the US would be. Lance has always denied using drugs, if he had it would have been easy to admit it early as most, if not all, racers probably used them in the past. Cycling is no different from other professional sports, money talks and the pressure for results from sponsors must be overwhelming.

Allez Lance!!! Yet I am enjoying the last two days with back to back French stage wins and hope Thomas Voeckler keeps his yellow jersey for a while. I wouldn't mind seeing him in yellow in Paris as well, same for Tyler.

The complete interview in Le Monde has some more interesting tidbits. Here is the link: http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3248,36-372691,0.html. Seems that the feud goes back to at least 2001.

2001 was when Greg made his first, and since retracted, coments about Lance and Dr. Michele Ferrari.

Thanks for the link but I don't speak much French past Renault, Peugot and Merlot! There isn't an english version floating about is there?