Living Car Free - Can the suburbs ever be carfree?

I think they will work very hard at developing a vehicle to accommodate the suburb lifestyle. The Cash For Cars program shows where the government believes we should be investing our money. If the economy all goes south and makes that impractical then there is no reason to move anywhere, back to the city or otherwise. In the east the jobs that the rust belt once provided have gone anyway. In the west the places people can find work don’t involve downtown either. The Western model produced industrial parks to get around the zoning problems and construction permit problems the inner city had.

I believe the suburbs will have to develop their own labor infrastructure and lifestyle separate from the city they moved from in the first place. As you have often pointed out the population is getting bigger and there simply isn’t any place for suburbanites to slot in to back in the cities.

I had mentioned several places outside of San Diego and how they went from suburb to their own small city. The reason was simple; you could get a house of your own with a yard and no common walls with any neighbors for a lot less than buying a place in the city. It was, and to a degree still is, a dream most Americans aspired to.

To continue this American type of life style we either have to develop the infrastructure for mass transit, or for the few brave souls like you, bike connections to places of employment.

I also believe that before people start giving up AC and heat you will see Nuclear Power plants popping up like mushrooms all over the country. Or you will see a relaxing or the restrictions on coal fired plants like we haven’t seen since the beginning of the industrial age.

Excuse the digression but your description of cycling in the winter reminds me of the Nuns in “Lilies of the Fields.” They walked miles to church on dusty dirt roads for years till they got a contractor to build their Chapel. He had a car and while they could still have walked, when he offered a ride they took it. Far more Americans are like those nuns than like someone who will ride their bike in the freezing weather of winter. Just my opinion but from talking to people in community meetings in our city I think it is a pretty good gage of how my fellow citizens feel.

I totally agree that bikes won't replace cars. Speaking strictly about the suburbs, I would rather expect to see bikes replace some 10 percent of car trips (not miles). I would expect to see see walking replace another 20 percent of trips. Public transit might take 30 percent of trips. I expect cars--probably electric--will keep the other 40 percent of suburban trips.

I think you are probably right about the suburbs (and I would add city neighborhoods) developing more like villages in the future. These electric car fantasies may never come true, so it will be necessary to drastically curtail daily trips, or we will all fry like catfish and hush puppies on the griddle.

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I honestly don't think that American suburbs will ever be car free until there is a massive change in values. We can develop all the infrastructure we like, but Americans value cars as a means of self-expression not transportation. Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote in a local paper about the advantages of cycling versus electric cars, it pretty well sums up my attitude:

"There are two major obstacles to this {cycling for transportation** possibility. The first is ego; we have grown to identify our autos as a means of social acceptance and can’t separate ourselves from the symbol of our accomplishment. My experience has proven that adults in the USA classify bicycles in three categories: children’s toys, exotic machines for fitness fanatics, and transportation of last resort for the poverty stricken and disadvantaged. Most people are not fitness fanatics, but they are afraid of what other people might think and would be humiliated if they were seen riding their bike to the store, post office, bank or office even though it just makes sense. The second problem is greater—people are just plain lazy. Americans would rather sit down and eat than do anything else (gas stations don’t sell chili dogs by accident)."

More people are doing it, but the vast majority sit back and bask in the glow of self-importance a fancy car gives them. The economical,environmental and health benefits mean nothing compared to the gratification they receive from Madison Avenue.

That is pretty much a mirror of my observations as well. I have been to community meetings where we talk about adding bike lanes and trying to get racks put up so there would be somewhere to park a bicycle if you did decided to ride to the bank or store. People will support you right up to the point where they are told they may lose some on street parking. Then they turn on you like a dog on a steak.

That is pretty much a mirror of my observations as well. I have been to community meetings where we talk about adding bike lanes and trying to get racks put up so there would be somewhere to park a bicycle if you did decided to ride to the bank or store. People will support you right up to the point where they are told they may lose some on street parking. Then they turn on you like a dog on a steak.

In the town closest to me any time you suggest spending tax dollars on anything but more parking or roadways it gets violently shouted down as well as voted down. That not only includes cycling or pedestrian infrastructure, but parks, arts, or any social programs.

Aaron:)

That is pretty much a mirror of my observations as well. I have been to community meetings where we talk about adding bike lanes and trying to get racks put up so there would be somewhere to park a bicycle if you did decided to ride to the bank or store. People will support you right up to the point where they are told they may lose some on street parking. Then they turn on you like a dog on a steak.

What I find even more interesting is the private reaction I get. Nearly everybody I have met knows that I ride, but when I meet them somewhere, in a store, parking lot, office or meeting and they see me getting on my bike to leave, they feel compelled to offer a ride. I have had people literally argue for five minutes that I don't "have to"they can take the time if I "need a ride". Invariably they ask what is wrong with my car and when I say "nothing," I am faced with a middle aged, speechless deer-in-the-headlights who can think of absolutely nothing to say. Like I've said, it's acceptable to dress up like a circus acrobat, join a group any weekday night, ride around in a circle, as fast as possible with no apparent destination or purpose. But to use a bike to go somewhere purposely, implies "need" and that is not socially acceptable, especially in American suburbs.

That is pretty much a mirror of my observations as well. I have been to community meetings where we talk about adding bike lanes and trying to get racks put up so there would be somewhere to park a bicycle if you did decided to ride to the bank or store. People will support you right up to the point where they are told they may lose some on street parking. Then they turn on you like a dog on a steak.

Seems to be the same scenario here. There's a lot of support on city council for a "complete streets" solution, but when businesses and council members here that they might lose some parking, all bets are off. When that happens they come out and claim they support building more bike infrastructure in the form of trails (meaning routes that will be unusable for most of the winter snow and spring flooding season.). But they need parking... :(

Vauban, Germany is an example of a new carfree (really carlight) suburb. Here's a couple excerpts from a NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/export_html/common/new_article_post.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2009%2F05%2F12%2Fscience%2Fearth%2F12suburb .html&title=In%20German%20Suburb%2C%20Life%20Goes%20On%20Without%20Cars&summary=A%20young%20development%20in%20Vauban%20illustrates%20a%20trend%20of%20planning%20communitie s%20to%20thrive%20without%20automobiles.&section=Science%20%2F%20Environment&pubdate=May%2012%2C%202009&byline=By%20ELISABETH%20ROSENTHAL) for your consideration:

The article also includes some information on the design considerations that when into making Vauban less car-dependant.


What do you think?
What are the advantages and obstacles to designing carfree suburbs in your region?
Is it possible to be carfree in suburbs as they exist today?


One of the things I have noticed as I grow older is that people are the most self-centered creatures of God's Creation. While they for the most part mouth out platitudes of Green living, recycle and the like, the reality that the vast majority will only cycle beyond recreational needs for economic reasons period. Over the last few years, the cycle has moved beyond a fun item to serious transport. And it will continue to develop in this way if there is more serious support (an actually manned parking lot by both human & canine guards, working cameras, surrounded by chain link fencing) secure parking/storage options for one that almost eliminates theft) system in place. And it will happen anywhere there are people who actually intergrate the bike into their daily lives.

I'm trying to be careful to discuss the depression scenario without making a specific prediction. But yes, I don't think the long term economic fundamentals look very good. As I see it, the big problems are unemployment and too little personal income to support existing personal debt. I think the oil supply issues are currently dormant due to lower demand but are still out there waiting to choke off a recovery. What is the optimistic scenario?

I have a similiar outlook on the next five years of economic activity, and maybe beyond, due to dwindling oil supplies. The economy may recover a bit, but once fuel prices rise again, people will tighten up on their spending once again. Our fat economy doesn't act well on a diet.

I personally believe that many people if not most will cut everything else first before they dump the car. There are a few of us that think outside the box and realize just how expensive a car can be and realize that it may not really be necessary for our situation.

Aaron:)

I think you're right Aaron. They would likely cut cable/satellite TV (radio), Internet, even run the A/C less in the south, and skimp on buying snack food, just to fuel up the beast.

You'd need a lot of things

- Decent mass transit, both within the sprawl to get people from one place to the other, and FROM the middle of suburban hell to places that actually matter
- Infrastructure that encourages walkability/bikeability - i.e. businesses, grocery stores, etc. within close range rather than concentrated at a strip mall 30 miles away. Of course, this is otherwise known as "living in a city."
- And of course, probably even more difficult than implementing either of the above - a mindset change. At least in America, Americans don't WANT to give up their cars. And the fact that huge sections of our developed areas were built on the idea that you drive everywhere, means that people who live there have no other choice, because everything they would need to go to is outside of reasonable biking distance. Even if they wanted to make the effort to get in shape and brave the rain, etc., there's still the time consideration - people don't have time to bike places when they live so far removed from everything.

I agree wholeheartedly, That is one of the reasons that I am not heavily into advocacy. In my neck of the woods your last point is especially applicable.

You'd need a lot of things

- Decent mass transit, both within the sprawl to get people from one place to the other, and FROM the middle of suburban hell to places that actually matter
- Infrastructure that encourages walkability/bikeability - i.e. businesses, grocery stores, etc. within close range rather than concentrated at a strip mall 30 miles away. Of course, this is otherwise known as "living in a city."
- And of course, probably even more difficult than implementing either of the above - a mindset change. At least in America, Americans don't WANT to give up their cars. And the fact that huge sections of our developed areas were built on the idea that you drive everywhere, means that people who live there have no other choice, because everything they would need to go to is outside of reasonable biking distance. Even if they wanted to make the effort to get in shape and brave the rain, etc., there's still the time consideration - people don't have time to bike places when they live so far removed from everything.

I agree that it would be nice for an improvement in all the infrastructure but, as you say, what's necessary is a change in the mindset of the middle class American. I disagree that most people live beyond reasonable biking distance to normal services. I live on a small lake in the middle of a forest where my nearest year 'round neighbor is a mile away, so I'm as distant as most get. Still, I bike to the grocery, hardware store, post office and bank, in fact there is a selection of competing services all within 5 miles of my house. Suburbs provide even closer proximity to all that and you can usually add a mall, theater and sports events. Anybody can ride 5 miles, but most people don't know that because they haven't been on a bike since they were 10. Also, I've been told, but I don't know how accurate it is, that most auto trips and consequently gas consumption occurs within 5 miles of home. So a lot can be accomplished without new infrastructure if people realized that a bike is a much more useful form of transportation than a car for nearly all routine trips. More bikes on the road means fewer cars and more safety.

Anybody can ride 5 miles,

Well...they can get to the point where they can. But if you're middle aged, out of shape and don't exercise much, and live in a hilly place, five miles could kick your ass and make you swear never to get on a bike again.

Not to mention, of course, that reaching the tipping point where biking places will no longer earn you the scorn of your neighbors, seems nigh impossible.

I agree that it would be nice for an improvement in all the infrastructure but, as you say, what's necessary is a change in the mindset of the middle class American. I disagree that most people live beyond reasonable biking distance to normal services. I live on a small lake in the middle of a forest where my nearest year 'round neighbor is a mile away, so I'm as distant as most get. Still, I bike to the grocery, hardware store, post office and bank, in fact there is a selection of competing services all within 5 miles of my house. Suburbs provide even closer proximity to all that and you can usually add a mall, theater and sports events. Anybody can ride 5 miles, but most people don't know that because they haven't been on a bike since they were 10. Also, I've been told, but I don't know how accurate it is, that most auto trips and consequently gas consumption occurs within 5 miles of home. So a lot can be accomplished without new infrastructure if people realized that a bike is a much more useful form of transportation than a car for nearly all routine trips. More bikes on the road means fewer cars and more safety.

Not necessarily, I can show you over 1,000 houses where the closest grocery store is over 7 miles away via narrow non cyclist friendly two lane roads, movie theaters are closer to 20 miles. In NC they build subdivisions first and hope the rest of the stuff follows.

Aaron:)

Not to mention, of course, that reaching the tipping point where biking places will no longer earn you the scorn of your neighbors, seems nigh impossible.

This is the real point. As I noted elsewhere, the American public has bought the Madison Avenue premise that cars are means of self-expression, not transportation. Bicycles, to them, are a means of exercise (i.e. WORK) not transportation. Until the majority of Americans get over that, nothing will improve no matter what type of infrastructure is available.

Not necessarily, I can show you over 1,000 houses where the closest grocery store is over 7 miles away via narrow non cyclist friendly two lane roads, movie theaters are closer to 20 miles. In NC they build subdivisions first and hope the rest of the stuff follows.

Aaron:)

That may be true, but having lived in 8 states, 10 different cities and visiting over 100 metro areas on this continent and Europe I feel very safe in telling you; that is a rare exception.

That may be true, but having lived in 8 states, 10 different cities and visiting over 100 metro areas on this continent and Europe I feel very safe in telling you; that is a rare exception.

I travel extensively too. In the Deep South in the medium sized cites the sprawl results in excessive distances between available retail shopping. In North Charleston SC there is one URBAN neighborhood that has no grocery or pharmacy nearby. The closest is over 7 miles away. There are always exceptions to the supposed norms. I have been in small towns in Kansas where it was a 35 mile drive to the nearest grocery store. Montana has similar towns.

Towns that host larger universities seem to be in better shape than many due to the young age of the population as well as the density.

Aaron:)

I travel extensively too. In the Deep South in the medium sized cites the sprawl results in excessive distances between available retail shopping. In North Charleston SC there is one URBAN neighborhood that has no grocery or pharmacy nearby. The closest is over 7 miles away. There are always exceptions to the supposed norms. I have been in small towns in Kansas where it was a 35 mile drive to the nearest grocery store. Montana has similar towns.

Towns that host larger universities seem to be in better shape than many due to the young age of the population as well as the density.

Aaron:)

You are absolutely right. The high plains of Kansas, Montana and even Colorado are an extreme exception because very few people live there. Kansas City, Wichita, Manahattan or Lawrence are all perfectly managible by bike, as are the urban areas of the south I've lived in, Greenville SC, Atlanta, Charleston. Most of the population lives in metro areas which are perfectly livable using a bike as primary transportation. Where I live now, in the middle of a forest in Michigan, the deer far outnumber humans and it is still easy to live car-light or even car-free if you want.

I personally believe that many people if not most will cut everything else first before they dump the car. There are a few of us that think outside the box and realize just how expensive a car can be and realize that it may not really be necessary for our situation.

Aaron:)

I live in Holland and it's the second most expensive country in the world to own and drive a car. And guess what, the favorite choice of transportation is: the car. With gasprices at 5 euros a gallon (1 euro 33 a litre) with a peak of 6 euros a gallon last year , road taxes that can be as high as 100 euro's a month for a diesel powered vehicle and around 40 to 50 euros for a petrol powered car and a added 40% to the price of every new car sold, still nobody even thinks of not driving a car anymore. The government wants to increase the cost even more in the near feature with a price per km. I doubt it will have ANY succes at all.

I think we should not look at how we can raise the cost of motoring in an effort to decrease driving, i think we should be looking at cleaner vehicles (electric cars or air powerd cars) instead. Personal transportation is the best type of transportation. Wheter it be a bike , a car, a trike, an electric golf kart, it always beats public transportation and we shouldn't want to force people in transportation options they don't want.

You are absolutely right. The high plains of Kansas, Montana and even Colorado are an extreme exception because very few people live there. Kansas City, Wichita, Manahattan or Lawrence are all perfectly managible by bike, as are the urban areas of the south I've lived in, Greenville SC, Atlanta, Charleston. Most of the population lives in metro areas which are perfectly livable using a bike as primary transportation. Where I live now, in the middle of a forest in Michigan, the deer far outnumber humans and it is still easy to live car-light or even car-free if you want.

And yet there are, I believe, no major supermarkets in the entire city of Detroit. A bike trip to the suburban Meijer's is a daunting chore for many Detroiters.

I think we should not look at how we can raise the cost of motoring in an effort to decrease driving, i think we should be looking at cleaner vehicles (electric cars or air powerd cars) instead. Personal transportation is the best type of transportation. Wheter it be a bike , a car, a trike, an electric golf kart, it always beats public transportation and we shouldn't want to force people in transportation options they don't want.

I think we should be looking at both. In many areas, a bike (or walking) is the best choice for transport. Carfree is the cleanest, greenest and cheapest way to go, whenever it's a reasonable option.

We do need clean machine-powered vehicles for some situations. However, merely replacing the fleet of internal combustion cars with alternative cars will not come close to solving all the problems of cars. You'll still be left with congestion, sprawl, traffic accidents, consumer expense, and other problems.

Your statement that "Personal transportation is the best type of transportation" is pure hogwash. IMO.

I live in Holland and it's the second most expensive country in the world to own and drive a car. And guess what, the favorite choice of transportation is: the car.

While it might be a the favorite choice, I'm sure most Dutch people are wise enough to know when it is the appropriate means to travel. At 1.33 Euros per litre, I'm guessing you wouldn't see to many commuters travelling between South Holland and Amsterdam on a daily basis. However in the US, where gas is close to ~$.60 per litre, a 100km one-way commute is common.

I'm also guessing that a two-block car ride to pick up groceries wouldn't be that common either.

I live in Holland and it's the second most expensive country in the world to own and drive a car. And guess what, the favorite choice of transportation is: the car. With gasprices at 5 euros a gallon (1 euro 33 a litre) with a peak of 6 euros a gallon last year , road taxes that can be as high as 100 euro's a month for a diesel powered vehicle and around 40 to 50 euros for a petrol powered car and a added 40% to the price of every new car sold, still nobody even thinks of not driving a car anymore. The government wants to increase the cost even more in the near feature with a price per km. I doubt it will have ANY succes at all.

I think we should not look at how we can raise the cost of motoring in an effort to decrease driving, i think we should be looking at cleaner vehicles (electric cars or air powerd cars) instead. Personal transportation is the best type of transportation. Wheter it be a bike , a car, a trike, an electric golf kart, it always beats public transportation and we shouldn't want to force people in transportation options they don't want.

I've heard that Dutch trains are quite expensive. I'm sure if they were cheaper people would use them more. I favor even higher taxes on cars and gasoline as a way of both discouraging driving and raising revenue for subsidising mass transit.

We need to get people away from the mindset that jumping in the car to get everywhere is the normal way of doing things.

good luck with that:lol:

While it might be a the favorite choice, I'm sure most Dutch people are wise enough to know when it is the appropriate means to travel. At 1.33 Euros per litre, I'm guessing you wouldn't see to many commuters travelling between South Holland and Amsterdam on a daily basis. However in the US, where gas is close to ~$.60 per litre, a 100km one-way commute is common.

I'm also guessing that a two-block car ride to pick up groceries wouldn't be that common either.

guess again.


I've heard that Dutch trains are quite expensive. I'm sure if they were cheaper people would use them more. I favor even higher taxes on cars and gasoline as a way of both discouraging driving and raising revenue for subsidising mass transit.

what do you call expensive?

guess again.



what do you call expensive?

How many Dutch commute long distances? How much do Dutch trains cost, if you even know?

How many Dutch commute long distances? How much do Dutch trains cost, if you even know?

yeah. you're right. after living here for 10+ years, i have no clue. :rolleyes:

And yet there are, I believe, no major supermarkets in the entire city of Detroit. A bike trip to the suburban Meijer's is a daunting chore for many Detroiters.
There are major supermarkets in Detroit. Some media reports have said there are no national chain supermarkets in the city. (They're not counting Aldi's.) Meijers is opening a grocery store in Detroit. There is also a growing number of farmer's markets throughout the city of Detroit.

That said, some Detroiters have closer access to food than others.

I just moved my travel trailer to the southwest edge of Austin. It's a suburb now, but used to be a small town. It's called Oak hill. I think it is suitable for car free living. To the west of my location, there's a grocery store and laundry mat about .5 miles away. The post office our neighbor to the west. I live in a trialer park now, by the way.

The high school is the property to the east, and 3 miles to the east is a Central Market, a movie theatre, and a Border's book store, as well as numerous other stores... Actually many more, and many more resteraunts.

At that point is also the interstection of South Lamar, and the service road that I would have rhode in on. That service road doesn't have a bike lane, but it is three lanes wide, and there isn't much traffic on it, but I don't ride during rush hours. Once near South Lamar, it's a 3 mile ride, at the most, to downtown Austin. I ride through neighborhoods instead of on South Lamar sometimes.

Oh, there's a Park and Ride .5 miles west of the trailer park that I'm in. There's numerous bus stops around too, and busses with bike racks.

Austin isn't the best city for car free living in the U.S., but it certainly is feasable right now.

Keep in mind that I still use an automobile. I use my bike to try to live car light, for now.

At that point is also the interstection of South Lamar, and the service road that I would have rhode in on. That service road doesn't have a bike lane, but it is three lanes wide, and there isn't much traffic on it, but I don't ride during rush hours. Once near South Lamar, it's a 3 mile ride, at the most, to downtown Austin. I ride through neighborhoods instead of on South Lamar sometimes.
That's my neighborhood too! Let me share a couple of my prize short cuts.

When you get to the Arby's just east of the Central Market, you can cross under the Ben White traffic lanes at ground level by going right under the flyovers. The flyovers are built over the old road bed, so it's paved and bikeable there. Look closely, you'll see how to do it. You'll come out on the north side of Ben White right in front of the music store.

Riding Lamar going north to downtown isn't bad at all because it's downhill all the way to the river.

Once you're at the northeast corner of Ben White and Packsaddle Pass, go through the parking lot behind the little medical center. At the rear of the parking lot next to the dumpster there's a pedestrian cut-through to Fortview, which takes you right to the intersection of Banister & Ben White. Turn left on Banister and you're on Bike Route 31 to downtown, a beautifully low traffic route.

An alternative to Central Market for groceries is the Randall's at William Cannon & Loop 1. Much lower traffic going there.

You've got about a half mile of problem road on Hwy 71 between Old Fredericksburg and Loop 1. No sidewalk means you have to ride with traffic and therefore you can't bike against the flow of traffic there. If you figure out a back way from your place to the Target, let me know!

There are major supermarkets in Detroit. Some media reports have said there are no national chain supermarkets in the city. (They're not counting Aldi's.) Meijers is opening a grocery store in Detroit. There is also a growing number of farmer's markets throughout the city of Detroit.

That said, some Detroiters have closer access to food than others.

I'm glad to hear the situation is improving. One factor is that worldwide, chains like Walmart and Meijers are running out of locations to build new stores in their traditionally preferred sites. They might be tapping "new" markets now by building in inner cities.

This would be a profitable business plan, IMO. I hope they'll consider new store designs for urban sites-- perhaps multilevel stores, with more moderately sized parking lots.

I'm sure the idea of Walmarts expanding into the inner cities is gonna be real popular in this forum :lol:

I'm sure the idea of Walmarts expanding into the inner cities is gonna be real popular in this forum :lol:

It probably won't be a widely accepted idea here, but it probably should be. Walmart is the way most Americans want to shop. Why should they be denied it because they're carfree?

Probably not for many but future burbs could have better integration. Thing is that the two worker family just does not suit car free living. What are the chances of both partners having a good job in the same place, yes, yes, some few do but most do not. Additionally the soccer mom concept will need a death blow dealt.

Most suburbs have no employment, no shopping, no entertainment, no medicine, no doctors, nothing that does not require a 10 to 40 mile drive and given that much of the United States is very cold in the winter and very hot in the summer and that there is no rail, no bike ways, no nothing, the answer is NO, not anytime soon.

But, there is a growing case for re-urbanization. Moving back into the cities, razing the slums, retaking the ghettos, learning to live with people again of all types and socioeconomic levels rather than isolating ourselves in distant suburban Hummer Home cocoons. Returning to smaller scale living, human scale.