Tandem Cycling - Inadvertent OOP Experience

My wife and I were grinding up what for us is a very hard hill (Laureles Grade outside of Monterey, CA); saw up to 15% on my cyclometer. While we didn't have to walk we did stop a few times. Aside from having no shoulder for quite a stretch we were wobbling a bit in our 24-32 with my stoker in phase. During one of the starts stoker wound up OOP (yeah, it's a Davinci) and the bike was much more controllable. We're definitely going to experiment with this on steeper grades. The wobbling really didn't come into play until the grade exceeded 9-10%.

Since the Davinci is extremely stable and smooth at anything over a crawl. I do attribute some of the wobbling, in phase or not to PIO (pilot induced oscillation), but we'll try the OOP nevertheless.

After reading a discussion on OOP last March, my team gave it a try while cycling steep roads in Oman last April. My stoker and I both noticed a much smoother cadence, no surging as experienced with IP. As mentioned in several previous posts, the OOP stroke results in captain & stoker encountering the dead spot alternately. I believe this is how you avoided the slow speed wobble you experienced; as you were alternately pushing through the dead spot of your peddle revolution. While you were IP you might have been experiencing a brief stall in your spin while pushing through the dead spot. If you had cadence data for the ride, it would be interesting to see if your cadence was smoother while OOP.

OOP and IP might not be such a big deal to a team of comparable fitness/ability. In my case it might be very noticeable due to my stoker only cycles occasionally and I’m on a trainer or my single every day.

We have in 200,000+ miles of riding OOP.
Tried it back in the mid-70s and made a huge difference for us, especially while climbing.
We were a bit of an oddity then (as was any tandem!). Had one fellow drafting us and he was trying to count our cadence and complained that all he saw was 'flying feet.' Told him to add up the pedal flyin' feet and divide by two! We finally coasted and explained OOP to him.
If you have not tried OOP give it try for a couple weeks, it may surprise you. If you don't like it, it's easy enough to switch back.
With a daV, stoker will have to keep an eye on the pilot's feet!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Sorry for my ignorance...IP? OOP? Oh, I've got a DaVinci (been out on it once). Our first ride on it experienced high teen grades. Very stable I might add.

Sorry for my ignorance...IP? OOP? Oh, I've got a DaVinci (been out on it once). Our first ride on it experienced high teen grades. Very stable I might add.

IP = In Phase
OOP = Out Of Phase

This is in regard to the crank arm alignment between the Captain and Stokers. On my bike I have the Captain's crank set 15 degrees ahead of the stokers. I saw a couple at the NWTR with just the reverse.

Sorry for my ignorance...IP? OOP? Oh, I've got a DaVinci (been out on it once). Our first ride on it experienced high teen grades. Very stable I might add.

IP = In Phase
OOP = Out Of Phase

This is in regard to the crank arm alignment between the Captain and Stokers. On my bike I have the Captain's crank set 15 degrees ahead of the stoker's. I saw a couple at the NWTR with just the reverse.

Instead of running OOP and risk wacking a pedal on the ground in a corner wouldn't it make sense to just use non-eccentric chainrings instead?

Instead of running OOP and risk wacking a pedal on the ground in a corner wouldn't it make sense to just use non-eccentric chainrings instead?

Our tandem was designed to be ridden OOP. Back in the days of toe clips the caption's bottom bracket was higher so that the toe clips would clear the ground. When the tandem reached a stable speed we would pause and they could be flipped over.

The stoker's top tube is short and are closer to the captain. To give more room for the stoker, the stoker's bottom bracket is much closer to the ground, allowing a more comfortable upright riding position. The ground clearance of the captain and stoker's pedals are not the same.

As captain I find it much easier to muscle the tandem around corners with one pedal down. With weight on a pedal I have another connection point to the frame. With the stokers pedals closer to the ground they should be up. OOP is safer for us going around corners. I do have to be careful on my single, I have whacked a pedal on the ground.

That is why tandem teams way back were taught that the stoker remains clipped in until lunch.

Have you measured the height of your bottom brackets and compared them to your single? Have you actually leaned your tandem over and checked the ground clearance of the pedals?

Have you measured the height of your bottom brackets and compared them to your single? Have you actually leaned your tandem over and checked the ground clearance of the pedals?

No I haven't but I guess I will (in the morning since it's in the car). :) Mine is a new Calfee and I don't think it is higher than my single but you got me wondering...will report in the morning...

"My wife and I were grinding up what for us is a very hard hill (Laureles Grade outside of Monterey, CA); saw up to 15% on my cyclometer."

Can't comment on OOP, since we are in sync. I just wanted to tell both of you that the Laureles Grade is a steep SOB, especially going from the Carmel Valley to Salinas. The other way is just longer. Hope you made the loop and stopped at the mouth of the valley for some well earned rest and food, instead of just going back & fourth. Have done it a few times with a close friend that lives in the valley and it never gets easier. Great job. :thumb:

Instead of running OOP and risk wacking a pedal on the ground in a corner wouldn't it make sense to just use non-eccentric chainrings instead?
If the captain's pedal is up for the inside of the curve, and the stoker is OOP, then the stokers' cranks are horizontal. If horizontal cranks risks whacking a pedal on the ground my stoker would give me a lot of grief for taking that corner on that kind of angle (that would likely be more than a 45 degree tilt, wouldn't it?)

If the captain's pedal is up for the inside of the curve, and the stoker is OOP, then the stokers' cranks are horizontal. If horizontal cranks risks whacking a pedal on the ground my stoker would give me a lot of grief for taking that corner on that kind of angle (that would likely be more than a 45 degree tilt, wouldn't it?)

You have it correct on cornering. Speed bumps may be a problem for OOP. It is impossible to get both cranks parallel. The best one can do is angle the crank arms 45 degrees which offers some clearance.

If the captain's pedal is up for the inside of the curve, and the stoker is OOP, then the stokers' cranks are horizontal. If horizontal cranks risks whacking a pedal on the ground my stoker would give me a lot of grief for taking that corner on that kind of angle (that would likely be more than a 45 degree tilt, wouldn't it?)

That makes sense to me. Thanks for the explainations. I guess it would be cheeper to adjust the phase on the timing chain rather than buying chainrings. ;)

The old style hi-rise speed bumps could pose an issue; way-back-when in the late 70s we crossed from the US into Mexico and they had the first speed bump we've ever traveressed as we crossed the border. Did whack the stokers pedal
The newer ones in AZ are now called 'speed humps' and are less severe; do still have to slow a bit but they are more easily traveresed.
Have never whacked a pedal cornering while 90 degrees OOP on our tandem(s) in 34+ years of OOPing TWogether.
It's the captain's responsibility . . .
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

We have the captain's cranks 90 degrees advanced. When cornering, the captain's cranks are horizontal with the inside pedal forward. This puts the stoker's inside crank 'up', and outside crank 'down'. Never a problem.
When crossing speed bumps or speed humps, we approach with captain's crank horizontal and immediately give a quarter revolution to place stoker's cranks in horizontal position. This results in optmum clearance for each crank set as it passes over the bump/hump.

"My wife and I were grinding up what for us is a very hard hill (Laureles Grade outside of Monterey, CA); saw up to 15% on my cyclometer."

Can't comment on OOP, since we are in sync. I just wanted to tell both of you that the Laureles Grade is a steep SOB, especially going from the Carmel Valley to Salinas. The other way is just longer. Hope you made the loop and stopped at the mouth of the valley for some well earned rest and food, instead of just going back & fourth. Have done it a few times with a close friend that lives in the valley and it never gets easier. Great job. :thumb:

Plus1! It was fun though..and beautiful. Magical w/e.

Since the Davinci is extremely stable and smooth at anything over a crawl.

Why is the da Vinci so stable? We previouly rode a borrowed Santana for a couple of years and then a Trek T1000 for a few years. Having bought a new daVinci this spring I can not believe the stability. It feels like we can practically stop without clipping out and fast descents are amazingly comfortable. Is this a function of geometry or quality?

Now back to the regularly scheduled program; OOP. The stoker will sync us up if things start feeling a little wierd (i.e. 180 degrees out) but we don't worry about being perfectly in sync. I think this helps round out our spin. As for cornering, on faster turns I simply call "pedal up" ahead of the turn. It is just part of the communication that a tandem helps us maintain. In addition I quietly enjoy the fact that having to call this out sets us apart from other tandems in the group. I was afraid of ICS when we ordered it, but I am proud to be an ICS captain now.