Living Car Free - There is just no getting through to some people

I just saw this on CNN, dealership give away 20 cars to drivers in need (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/09/07/atlanta.ludacris.cars/index.html). What therese people do not seem to realize is that what they "won" is a new expense that they probably cannot afford amy more than they could afford a car.

Now, I do admit that some of them do have a need for transportation (note, I did not say, "car") that was not being met. I even hope that some of them use this giveaway to get to jobs that would have, otherwise, been unavailable. However, I think more total good could have come about if the same amount of money had been spent on educating people on how to make car-free work better for them, along with a free bicycle, when appropriate, instead of cars.

Of course, I see the dealers point of view too. He was sitting on a huge pile of used cars with no market (trust your instinct, if there had been people clamoring to purchase these used cars he would not have been giving them away).

My best friend and his girlfriend are very poor--both on disability with 3 children. They live in a small town/suburb about 10 miles from the city. They live in subsidized housing there because the school system is a lot better than the city schools. I don't see that they have any choice but to have a car. The closest grocery store is about 6 miles away, and other needed stores, doctor's offices, etc. more than 10 miles away. I wish I knew someody who would give them a car, because the minivan they have now is really starting to show its age.

My best friend and his girlfriend are very poor--both on disability with 3 children. They live in a small town/suburb about 10 miles from the city. They live in subsidized housing there because the school system is a lot better than the city schools. I don't see that they have any choice but to have a car. The closest grocery store is about 6 miles away, and other needed stores, doctor's offices, etc. more than 10 miles away. I wish I knew somebody who would give them a car, because the minivan they have now is really starting to show its age.

This scenario reminds me of my situation about 20 years ago -- three children, next to no income, a paid-off car that I couldn't keep on the road. However, if the car was broke down (frequently the case..) I could always walk one mile to the grocery store. The kids could walk or bus to school. Or we had friends and relatives who would let the kids travel with them.

If your friends get some support from neighbours, relative or friends in their town, this could be a big help. Or perhaps they have another support mechanism...

However the sensation of driving a car 6 miles to the grocery store not knowing if you will get there and back... is the kind of anxiety I would like to avoid.

From the article:

>>>>Rivers described riding the city bus with his 14-year-old daughter to make sure she arrived safely at school and how he recently celebrated the small victory of getting his 17-year-old autistic son, who can't tolerate crowds, to stand calmly for a few moments outside the bus stop. He doesn't live near a grocery store so he has to bring home the food he can carry on the bus.

Rivers was laid off from his job as a court clerk in the summer of 2008, and making job interviews on time isn't easy when the bus is often late.<<<<

The writer of the article made it sound like getting the bus was a dangerous experience. You have to ride the bus with your kids to make sure they arrive safe from the scary passengers? Give me a break! The writer also made it look carrying shopping bags on a bus is a terrible experience but millions of people are doing this. Also, looking for work using the bus made him late for interviews and thus requires a car. How silly this whole article sounds!

I guess with their vehicle, these folks won't have to worry anymore about carrying heavy grocery bags on the bus because now that they own a car, all their money will be going on insurance, parking, tolls, repairs and gas. They can now get to the grocery fast but with even less money than before! Dropping of the kids will be easier with the car but alot more expensive in the long run and not any safer. They'll probably still arrive on job interviews late because people who do things at the last minute don't change their behavior regardless of the method of transport.

Ever utilized the bus system in Atlanta? It leaves a lot to be desired. It seems that almost everyday there are reports of assaults related to the buses down there. I have not used one there recently or regularly, but when I was there, it was chaotic and the buses did not run on time or much of schedule. They were quite often in poor repair and smelled like a men's room in a bar after a long weekend.

I agree that all most these people are doing is putting themselves into a dead end loop with having the cars, but it was their choice to a point.

Aaron:)

Ever utilized the bus system in Atlanta? It leaves a lot to be desired. It seems that almost everyday there are reports of assaults related to the buses down there. I have not used one there recently or regularly, but when I was there, it was chaotic and the buses did not run on time or much of schedule. They were quite often in poor repair and smelled like a men's room in a bar after a long weekend.

I agree that all most these people are doing is putting themselves into a dead end loop with having the cars, but it was their choice to a point.

Aaron:)

Agree with the Atlanta bus system. The subway is actually pretty good. Too bad there are *alot* of neighborhoods in Atl that you need to connect with a (infrequent) bus for. I remember one time it took over an hour to get from a subway stop to the 'outskirts' of Buckhead.

Our buses have annoying people asking for smokes and dollars while not really dangerous it gets old after awhile. Strange part is they are asking the wrong people for money most riding the bus don’t have extra $$.

My local bus system is horrible (if you have to transfer, add an hour usually). Our town is 4 miles by 3 miles, but it can take an hour and 30 mins via bus to get somewhere.
That money spent on 20 vehicles could be spent on helping to redesign crap bus lines like mine.

Then why bother with the bus? I could walk 4 miles in 90 minutes without breaking a sweat!

Then why bother with the bus? I could walk 4 miles in 90 minutes without breaking a sweat!

I could drive 4 miles in 5 minutes without breaking a sweat; and use those 85 minutes (twice a day) for something else; does my situation have any relevance for any one else?

I didn't think so.:rolleyes:

My local bus system is horrible (if you have to transfer, add an hour usually). Our town is 4 miles by 3 miles, but it can take an hour and 30 mins via bus to get somewhere.
That money spent on 20 vehicles could be spent on helping to redesign crap bus lines like mine.

Which is largely why the bus system in my city is largely subsidized transportation for the poor. Most of the time I see only a few people on the buses. A bus carrying 3 people plus a driver is hardly more efficient than a car either economically or environmentally. I am sure some routes at some times of the day have more riders but I don't use the bus because I don't have to and to do so is a waste of time and frankly money.

I could drive 4 miles in 5 minutes without breaking a sweat; and use those 85 minutes (twice a day) for something else; does my situation have any relevance for any one else?

I didn't think so.:rolleyes:

So do you have anything relevant to say? How would you advise a young low-income family to handle transportation? Should they spend on a car, or try to go carfree?

Today, I am giving the family I described above (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=9630705&postcount=2) $20 to replace a lugnut on their old minivan. I wish I had a better solution for them, but I can't think of anything. It would be very difficult (maybe impossible) to live in Bath, MI without a car, but the car eats up what little income they do have with repair and maintenance costs, even though my friend does the repairs himself. Any thoughts or ideas?

Roody brings up an interesting point. Our state housing authority has funds to help with housing. Recently the US Dept of Transportation and HUD put out a joint statement (although I haven't had time to read it yet). Transportation can eat up as large of a portion as housing in a low-income budget, yet there's no help for transportation. I'm well aware of the local school situation, with two two-year olds (we'll be moving before they get to school) The school system plays such a big factor in where people -if they even have the means to make the choice to move -choose to live. Many of the school systems in areas that might be walkable are simply not functioning. Those that are in areas of sprawl are more functional. Yet just try to get the planners who are doing everything they can think of to make their communities more "walkable" to address the local school system. Or regional transportation. I'd be interested in ideas, too. (New thread somewhere, Roody?)

Roody brings up an interesting point. Our state housing authority has funds to help with housing. Recently the US Dept of Transportation and HUD put out a joint statement (although I haven't had time to read it yet). Transportation can eat up as large of a portion as housing in a low-income budget, yet there's no help for transportation. I'm well aware of the local school situation, with two two-year olds (we'll be moving before they get to school) The school system plays such a big factor in where people -if they even have the means to make the choice to move -choose to live. Many of the school systems in areas that might be walkable are simply not functioning. Those that are in areas of sprawl are more functional. Yet just try to get the planners who are doing everything they can think of to make their communities more "walkable" to address the local school system. Or regional transportation. I'd be interested in ideas, too. (New thread somewhere, Roody?)

Yes, schools are the main reason that my friends choose to live in Bath instead of Lansing, even though Lansing is much more supportive of carfree living. Another concern is the crime, as most Lansing public housing is in high crime areas.

My friends are thinking of moving to Traverse City, a small upscale city in northern Michigan. TC is better for carfree living than Bath or even Lansing, so I support them in this idea. However, the human services system puts a lot of roadblocks in the way of transferring housing subsidies to a new location. Many poor families would be better off if they could relocate, either in-state or out of state. But they can't move as easily as a working family on unemployment and food stamps, for example.

So do you have anything relevant to say? How would you advise a young low-income family to handle transportation? Should they spend on a car, or try to go carfree? ...Any thoughts or ideas?
Only you (or someone else looking to pick a fight), would read my response as advice to a young low-income family trying to handle transportation.


My response was relevant to someone who thinks his willingness to walk 4 miles each way every day to work is practical advice to anybody/everybody else. The statement "Then why bother with the bus? I could walk 4 miles in 90 minutes without breaking a sweat!" was probably equivalent in value as relevant advice for family transportation as your posts about your joy in Michigan winter cycling.

It wasn't meant as practical advice, simply a question - what advantage does that particular bus offer over cycling,* or even walking? If it travels no faster than walking pace, then it is slower than a bike, more expensive overall... it keeps the rain off, I suppose. But so does a coat.

*I took that as read, and emphasised walk, since cycling is obviously faster than walking.

So do you have anything relevant to say? How would you advise a young low-income family to handle transportation? Should they spend on a car, or try to go carfree?

Today, I am giving the family I described above (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=9630705&postcount=2) $20 to replace a lugnut on their old minivan. I wish I had a better solution for them, but I can't think of anything. It would be very difficult (maybe impossible) to live in Bath, MI without a car, but the car eats up what little income they do have with repair and maintenance costs, even though my friend does the repairs himself. Any thoughts or ideas?

On the lines of my post above, they should consider moving to the town where they have the best support system. Do they have friends or family in Bath? In Traverse City? If they could hook into a group of like-minded friends or relatives, they could perhaps share a lot of transportation. If my car runs, I'll drive you wherever... if your car is running, etc.etc. We sometimes forget the support systems that exist beside salary and housing... A group that can share resources could prove to be one answer to this problem.

It wasn't meant as practical advice, simply a question - what advantage does that particular bus offer over cycling,* or even walking? If it travels no faster than walking pace, then it is slower than a bike, more expensive overall... it keeps the rain off, I suppose. But so does a coat.

*I took that as read, and emphasised walk, since cycling is obviously faster than walking.

Taking the bus or some other motorized transport also has the advantage of not requiring the commuter to walk a distance that they don't want to walk. It may be hard to believe but there are many people who would choose to pay for the advantage of not having to walk or otherwise exert themselves to get to and fro from their various destinations. Apparently that concept just doesn't get through to some people on this list

ILTB: "It may be hard to believe but there are many people who would choose to pay for the advantage of not having to walk or otherwise exert themselves to get to and fro from their various destinations. Apparently that concept just doesn't get through to some people on this list"

Maybe there are also people on this list who do not want to have to exert themsevles by argueing against your illogical BS. Is there someone that I can pay so that I dont have to?

There are lots of things that you do on a regular basis that you dont want to have to do. If I could pay someone to do all those things for me, would I? Hello no! Just because its convenient does not mean that its sustainable. Do you know what that word means?

Maybe there are also people on this list who do not want to have to exert themsevles by argueing against your illogical BS. Is there someone that I can pay so that I dont have to?

There are lots of things that you do on a regular basis that you dont want to have to do. If I could pay someone to do all those things for me, would I? Hello no! Just because its convenient does not mean that its sustainable. Do you know what that word means?

I am afraid you wouldn't know a logical argument if it bit you. Every discussion does not have to be run through a narrow politically correct filter of your choice to be logical.

Taking the bus or some other motorized transport also has the advantage of not requiring the commuter to walk a distance that they don't want to walk. It may be hard to believe but there are many people who would choose to pay for the advantage of not having to walk or otherwise exert themselves to get to and fro from their various destinations. Apparently that concept just doesn't get through to some people on this list

Yup at least 136 million or so (number of cars registered in the US) and probably quite a few more...

Aaron:)

Taking the bus or some other motorized transport also has the advantage of not requiring the commuter to walk a distance that they don't want to walk. It may be hard to believe but there are many people who would choose to pay for the advantage of not having to walk or otherwise exert themselves to get to and fro from their various destinations. Apparently that concept just doesn't get through to some people on this list


Not that I totally disagree with your thinking, but this is a biking forum, where the majority of the people are fairly fit and active.

FWIW, I have walked to and from work, which is 5.77 miles each way, because I didn't want to deal with the hassle of public transportation and my bike wasn't rideable for some reason, either due to maintenance or weather. I would never expect a majority of people to that. Although, my legs are ripped from when I used to do it fairly regularily in the morning and than get a ride from my live in ex- on the way home.

Not that I totally disagree with your thinking, but this is a biking forum, where the majority of the people are fairly fit and active.

FWIW, I have walked to and from work, which is 5.77 miles each way, because I didn't want to deal with the hassle of public transportation and my bike wasn't rideable for some reason, either due to maintenance or weather. I would never expect a majority of people to that.

You might note that the OP and other posters were disparaging those other people who are not on this forum for not "getting it." It was hardly the first thread from the "fairly fit and active" posters on this list who disparage everybody else for not making the same transportation and/or lifestyle choices as themselves.

I am glad to see that you do not expect others to make the same transportation choice as yourself or question the morality of those who don't share your view on the subject.

You might note that the OP and other posters were disparaging those other people who are not on this forum for not "getting it." It was hardly the first thread from the "fairly fit and active" posters on this list who disparage everybody else for not making the same transportation and/or lifestyle choices as themselves.

I am glad to see that you do not expect others to make the same transportation choice as yourself or question the morality of those who don't share your view on the subject.

The billions of people who don't post on this forum are very fortunate to have you as their champion. Otherwise, the few of us who do post here would be taking over the world without a fight! :rolleyes:

The billions of people who don't post on this forum are very fortunate to have you as their champion. Otherwise, the few of us who do post here would be taking over the world without a fight! :rolleyes:

You just don't seem to see the picture, do you?

Instead of a site with experiences, questions, advice, tips and topics about how to succeed as a car free or car light individual/family, the site is overrun with rants and whining about everybody else, their evil, immoral habits and life style, and wonderment about a failure to "get through" to them.

You might note that the OP and other posters were disparaging those other people who are not on this forum for not "getting it." It was hardly the first thread from the "fairly fit and active" posters on this list who disparage everybody else for not making the same transportation and/or lifestyle choices as themselves.

I am glad to see that you do not expect others to make the same transportation choice as yourself or question the morality of those who don't share your view on the subject.

As those who have read what I post here will be quick to realize, I (the OP) am no car hater. Because of my schedule I am using my motorcycle to get back and forth to school.

However, there people in the article are getting by without a car. They are treating the receipt of the car as a gift and not even mentioning the downside and resulting expenses. For most of the people receiving these "gifts" the car will be nothing but a strain on their, already taxed finances. No one mentioned that.

All the article said was 1. this dealer was so great in giving away these things he couldn't sell and realized that scrap values are near an all time low. 2. and all the wonderful ways the recipients lives would change for the better by having a car.

For most of the people in the article, the car is nothing but an unnecessary expense. There was one recipient in the article that even I would say needed a car. That was the guy looking for work and needed to expand his search range. However, most of the recipients were getting by and are now being saddled with a new; and, as seen by the fact that they were getting by, unnecessary expense.

Not wanting to carry groceries home on the bus is a dumb reason to get a car. Free does not mean without cost.

You just don't seem to see the picture, do you?

Instead of a site with experiences, questions, advice, tips and topics about how to succeed as a car free or car light individual/family, the site is overrun with rants and whining about everybody else, their evil, immoral habits and life style, and wonderment about a failure to "get through" to them.

It is funny, we agree on most of this rant.

The bicycle community (including manufacturers, dealers, and users) have failed to get through to many people that, in many cases, the presents a real alternative to their transportation needs. We have failed to communicate that, many times, their lives would be better if they forgo the car and look at the alternatives.

My best friend and his girlfriend are very poor--both on disability with 3 children. They live in a small town/suburb about 10 miles from the city. They live in subsidized housing there because the school system is a lot better than the city schools. I don't see that they have any choice but to have a car. The closest grocery store is about 6 miles away, and other needed stores, doctor's offices, etc. more than 10 miles away. I wish I knew someody who would give them a car, because the minivan they have now is really starting to show its age.

Why did they allow themselves to have 3 children if they are in such dire poverty? I don't have children, I can barely afford to feed and house myself and my dog, let alone another human being. I don't have the luxury of being on disability, either. I used to work, now I'm a broke college student.

I have a friend who is on disability, she has three kids with her husband who sort of works. She has occasionally not been able to pay her rent/buy enough groceries. I don't say this to her but: birth control, for christ's sake.

At least her husband finally got a vasectomy, no new mouths to feed.

Depending on your friends' disabilities, they should get bikes. 6 miles is nothing on a bike.

I think alot of disatisfaction with the bus stems from the fact that most people do not use the schedule to their advantage. I find only those in the morning during rush hour time the bus to the minute and it works for them. However, those who use it during the weekend are often seen standing for an hour since they hardly use the schedule.

There's an old saying that went like this. You give a man a fish, he eats for a day but if you show him how to fish, he'll eat for the rest of his life. Giving these folks a new car was only giving them a fish for the day. Motorized transport didn't help them to this point and was probably the contributor of their lot in life.

Why did they allow themselves to have 3 children if they are in such dire poverty? I don't have children, I can barely afford to feed and house myself and my dog, let alone another human being. I don't have the luxury of being on disability, either. I used to work, now I'm a broke college student.

I have a friend who is on disability, she has three kids with her husband who sort of works. She has occasionally not been able to pay her rent/buy enough groceries. I don't say this to her but: birth control, for christ's sake.

At least her husband finally got a vasectomy, no new mouths to feed.

Depending on your friends' disabilities, they should get bikes. 6 miles is nothing on a bike.

First, judge not.... Your sanctimonious attitude is unattractive, to say the least, and certainly uncompassionate. Not that you deserve an explanation, but the mother was working full time when she had her children, before she became disabled.

Second, while 6 miles (or 16 miles, for that matter) on a bike is easy for you or I, it's less practical for a woman with severe arthritis to take her two young children 16 miles to regular doctor appointments while riding a bike. If you can imagine a way for her to do this, let me know and I will gladly pass the idea along to her.

You just don't seem to see the picture, do you?

Instead of a site with experiences, questions, advice, tips and topics about how to succeed as a car free or car light individual/family, the site is overrun with rants and whining about everybody else, their evil, immoral habits and life style, and wonderment about a failure to "get through" to them.


I am intrigued by your constant complaints about the "off-topic" nature of this forum. And by your constant posting to "off-topic" threads. And by your total failure to post to ANY threads that you would consider to be "on-topic". From where I sit on my high horse, this is hypocricy at an absurd extreme.

I have chosen to be car-lite. I think I would like to be car free, however, it is nice to have a choice whether to ride or drive on any given night.
I try not to be all preachy about my choices, --- just because it works for me doesn't mean it would work for everyone or anyone else.

I think alot of disatisfaction with the bus stems from the fact that most people do not use the schedule to their advantage. I find only those in the morning during rush hour time the bus to the minute and it works for them. However, those who use it during the weekend are often seen standing for an hour since they hardly use the schedule.

There's an old saying that went like this. You give a man a fish, he eats for a day but if you show him how to fish, he'll eat for the rest of his life. Giving these folks a new car was only giving them a fish for the day. Motorized transport didn't help them to this point and was probably the contributor of their lot in life.

In many places the bus schedule doesn't work to anyone's advantage...unless maybe you are unemployed. The town nearest me has a bus system, if you happen to live on one end or the other and work shift work at the hospitals the buses will not get you to work on time for first shift nor home if you work second shift. I had a job at the mall for a while years ago. I could ride the bus to work, but the last bus ran 30 minutes before the mall shut down for the night, if you had to take a transfer bus you were SOL because the bus leaving the mall at 8:30pm (mall closed at 9pm) was the last bus running for the night into the transfer station downtown, if you didn't live on the route and could get off early you had to have another form of transportation.

Aaron:)