Advocacy & Safety - Cyclist killed by bus

this sucks. sympathies to his family ... when i read about this kind of thing i always wonder what really happened and could it have been prevented

Cyclist killed by bus
By Camera Staff Report
July 18, 2004

A 63-year-old California man died Saturday after being hit by a bus while he was riding his bike near north Broadway and U.S. 36.

Robert Scott rode from Broadway onto U.S. 36 into the path of a southbound bus around 11:45 a.m., Colorado State Patrol trooper Eric Wynn said.

Scott was apparently in the area training and had been staying at a hotel nearby, Wynn said.

The accident is still under investigation, but Wynn said the driver of the bus, whose name was not available, is not expected to be ticketed.

"The cyclist was at fault," Wynn said. "He went into the intersection."

The bus was a charter or commercial bus, but Wynn did not know what company operated it or where it was coming from.

its funny how when the cyclist is not around to give his/her side of the story that it always turns out to be their fault. They fell under the bus or some such bullsh**. It is a bit like plane crashes-they are far more likely to be blamed on the pilot if the pilot doesn`t survive the crash

Robert Scott rode from Broadway onto U.S. 36 into the path of a southbound bus around 11:45 a.m.

He rode into the path of a bus? Is it me or does that sound incredible.

you shouldn't make assumptions unless you know the complete story...

you shouldn't make assumptions unless you know the complete story...

thats exactly the problem - the only guy that knows the more or less complete story is the bus driver --perhaps we should just ask him then if it was his fault or not :rolleyes: oh I forgot the police have probably already done that

Did you ever think about witnesses... According to where the vehicles ended up, the skid marks ect. You can find alot out about what happend..

you shouldn't make assumptions unless you know the complete story...

Indeed..what a horribly incomplete blurb of journalism! Of course the locals probably know the area well, but for me..was there a light at the intersection? A stop sign? Was the bus coming from the right (and thus having the right of way in a tie)?

roughstuff

Yeah they were in a hurry with that news release.

the intersection only has a stop sign on Broadway before entering US 36. then you have to cross two lanes with a median to get on northbound 36. the traffic on 36 at that point is usually going 55-60mph (speed limit is 60). i've even seen cars under estimate the speed of the traffic on 36 and pull out in front of them for a near accident. cyclists have to be especially wary.

Then im guessing the cyclist under estimated the traffic and went across at the wrong time..

Did you ever think about witnesses... According to where the vehicles ended up, the skid marks ect. You can find alot out about what happend..

ABS has largely done away with skid mark analysis and vehicles tend to move around (even ones with dead owners) after an accident. Even if this were not the case ascertaining the cause of an accident on the basis of skid marks/vehicle positioning is largely guesswork and would only amount to circumstantial evidence at best in court

Where did you get this from?

Where did you get this from?
Owned.

The bus was a charter or commercial bus, but Wynn did not know what company operated it or where it was coming from.

a man was killed and they don't know this basic information? :(

Where did you get this from?

just my vast and hard earned knowledge of life (and watching LA law).

here is a recent legal case where the death of the accident victims (and lying by the person causing the accident) made it nearly impossible to ascertain the cause of the crash. It was only because of the exceptional presence of an airbag computer that the cause of the crash was proved.

http://www.abramslawfirm.com/casehtml/blkboxcomveh.html

Are you kidding me? You saw it on LA Law? I learned when I was about 4 not to beleive everything I see on TV.. You cannot take one accident out of millions to prove a point. My Dad worked 5 years on the FAIR team, and he's told me a bunch of times about how he figures out accidents, cars speeds ect.. With skids, where the vehicle struct something, where the person is afterwards (if their ejected).. Its alot of mathematical work but is accurate, and can be used it court.. Not every vehicle has airbags, so you can't soley rely on that to get you the info you need.. My dad had done many trials, using skids, measurements ect.. And its acceptable.. He lost maybe a couple out of hundreds..Some he doesn't even have to goto court because the evidence is so strong.. And in most cases the evidence isn't a stupid computer.. He had to goto a 3 month training course, and it wasen't on howto retrive a computer from the airbag.. They also use electronic measuring which is measuring where things are after the crash... I don't know where you got that hard earned knowledge from..

Are you kidding me? You saw it on LA Law? I learned when I was about 4 not to beleive everything I see on TV.. You cannot take one accident out of millions to prove a point. My Dad worked 5 years on the FAIR team, and he's told me a bunch of times about how he figures out accidents, cars speeds ect.. With skids, where the vehicle struct something, where the person is afterwards (if their ejected).. Its alot of mathematical work but is accurate, and can be used it court.. Not every vehicle has airbags, so you can't soley rely on that to get you the info you need.. My dad had done many trials, using skids, measurements ect.. And its acceptable.. He lost maybe a couple out of hundreds..Some he doesn't even have to goto court because the evidence is so strong.. And in most cases the evidence isn't a stupid computer.. He had to goto a 3 month training course, and it wasen't on howto retrive a computer from the airbag.. They also use electronic measuring which is measuring where things are after the crash... I don't know where you got that hard earned knowledge from..

Your dad this, your dad that. No offense but just because your dad is an expert, you are too? How about you just go ask your dad about the following quote.


ABS has largely done away with skid mark analysis and vehicles tend to move around (even ones
with dead owners) after an accident.

Your dad this, your dad that. No offense but just because your dad is an expert, you are too? How about you just go ask your dad about the following quote.

Chill! Gads This is a bike forum not a court of law.

No im not saying im an expert, my dad is and im relaying things he has told me. However that quote is still inaccurate because even though the car does have ABS the cars tires are still locking but then being released this happends serveral times a second.. Investigators just have to know what to look for.. They don't look like typical skidmarks.. You ever seen a tractor trailers skid when its empty because it bounces it creates a skip skid, where its kinda like this: - - - - - instead of _______ . Thats the same as the ABS except alot lighter. And so they arn't juicy ones that jump out you can't assume the driver never hit the brakes, you just have to have a close look. Sometimes its easier to check the cars brakes first.. As far as the cars moving around, most the time the only time you need to look at skids ect is when its a fatal, so the person cannot say what happend, and unless the wind is blowing 70mph or they crash in a lake, the cars not gonna move from where it rested at.. Of course if it strucks a tree, it may move say to the left or right but then thats where it finally ended so thats where you start the calculations.

Chill! Gads This is a bike forum not a court of law. Hey hey hey, would it be any fun to read if people wern't debating it?

I do not want to get in to the whole my dad is bigger than your dad thing. I did not find this argument very convincing at school and it has not really gained in credibility over the years. If we all were restricted to commenting on our father's occupations then I could only comment on the "technical aspects of management of industrial cellophane manufacture" and I don't think that would make a very interesting contribution to the forum :) .

And I was just joking about the LA Law. This programme aired before ABS of course so I don't think it would be very helpful in this case anyway :) .

I was writing in my original posts about a particular type of accident, i.e. ones where only one of the parties was left alive. It seems reasonable to assume that in at least 50% of these accidents the surviving party had liability for the accident. Now it also seems reasonable to assume that when questioned about it by the police many people (rather than go to jail for a prolonged period) will attempt to blame the dead party for the accident. I don't think I have written anything controversial so far. Now your view seems to be that highly trained accident investigators will swarm over the accident site with their sophisticated electronic devices and in these cases will provide incontrovertible evidence of guilt sufficiently strong to outweigh the testimony of the only surviving witness. I personally do not believe that this happens in MOST cases.

You say that you dad lost a few cases out of hundreds. What does this mean? your dad had secret knowledge of the cause of the crash and was able to prove this using accident investigation techniques. No-what this presumably means is that your Dad arrived at an accident scene after the event and then FORMED A VIEW from speaking to witnesses (usually more than just one) and looking at the evidence of the causes of the accident. THIS VIEW WAS THEN USUALLY ACCEPTED IN COURT. This is fine but I do not believe that we can infer from this that a trained accident investigator can, in every case (or even most cases), reconstruct an accident every time solely from skid marks (which may or may not exist) and or vehicle positions (which can move).

The bottom line is that if you die in an accident you are more likely to be blamed for that accident. Sad but true

If he trained like many of the roadies around here I can fully see how a bus hit him. They don't stop for traffic lights or anything (I am not talking about stoplights out on tiny sideroads either). Bicyclists can make mistakes too. I am sure there were several people in the bus to backup the drivers story as well of course. I am not saying that car drivers are not at fault much of the time, but once in awhile I think it not inconceivable that a cyclist makes a mistake or ignores a traffic law.

yes if you die in an accident, involving no other cars it probably the drivers fault.. However the family would like to know what happen, it is a comfort to know what exactly caused the accident.. Im not saying my dad is bigger than yours, don't put words in my mouth.. He just happens to know alot about the subject we were debating. By the way mostly all cases if the person is lying they usually always find out with other evidence.

The bottom line is that if you die in an accident you are more likely to be blamed for that accident. Sad but true

Do you have any evidience of this? I read about fatal cycling accidents all the time and I do not have this impression.

Yeah he watched it on LA Law.

the intersection only has a stop sign on Broadway before entering US 36. then you have to cross two lanes with a median to get on northbound 36. the traffic on 36 at that point is usually going 55-60mph (speed limit is 60). i've even seen cars under estimate the speed of the traffic on 36 and pull out in front of them for a near accident. cyclists have to be especially wary.

Thanks Gringorio for sharing that information. That is what I suspected, since I assumed 'highway 36' was a major road and "Broadway" was a side street (if a major one, still). Unless this bus was a thousand feet away going 500 miles an hour, I find it hard to believe that this was not the cyclists fault: the bus clearly was approaching the intersection, and the cyclist did not have the right of way. Not that lacking the right of way stops alot of cyclists these days...

roughstuff

yes if you die in an accident, involving no other cars it probably the drivers fault.. However the family would like to know what happen, it is a comfort to know what exactly caused the accident.. Im not saying my dad is bigger than yours, don't put words in my mouth.. He just happens to know alot about the subject we were debating. By the way mostly all cases if the person is lying they usually always find out with other evidence.

I didnt even write that, i.e. that the driver was always to blame. In reality there are a lot of cyclists who are not very skilful. kids, old people, people who cant get car licenses for unspecified reasons. They may make mistakes more often than average and we all know what the penalty for a mistake on a bike can be in our motor dominated society don´t we.

Sorry about the dad thing but you have to admit that when someone advances their dad as evidence in their favour it sounds a bit lame.

As for evidence, as far as I know there are no studies that have looked at cycling accidents in this depth. That is why I referred to the closest analogy that I has been studied in depth, i.e. aircraft pilots. It is a fairly well known fact that pilot error is indicated more often where the aircrew are not around to give evidence. Since aircraft accidents are MUCH better investigated than cycling accidents it seems reasonable to draw conclusions from the comparision of air accidents with cycling accidents. This comparision makes logical sense for the reasons I set out in my previous posts. If you have evidence that proves the opposite then let me know. Unfortunately a lot of questions in life have not been the subject of a double-blind study with statistical analysis. This means we have to make up our own minds about them (and we might be wrong). We cannot always rely on an Authority to tell us how life is. You have to think for yourself. All we have heard so far from you so far is what your father thinks- what do YOU think.

Yes sometime you do have to think for yourself, and unless you know for fact you should keep your thoughts to yourself. You may be afraid to ask somebody their knowledge, so you'd rather make an idiot of yourself and be wrong.. That only shows you think your a know it all.. I was trying to tell you that ABS are not doing away with skidmarks. Yeah people have their theories and may be wrong.. I knew the facts, and so I shared them so that next time it comes up your not wrong.. You can get offensive, but sometime you should learn that sometimes people arn't just out to prove you wrong but to tell you the fact so that you know longer say things that arn't true causing other people that you tell to be wrong also.. Almost like how rumors work. Also kinda what your saying is true alot of cyclist that are killed are not very skilled, and not using the proper safety gear, or following the laws.. Alot are even people who are drunk riding there bike... I am still young and I am still learning things from my parents. If you'd like to know my father knows nothing of this conversation, however it is knowledge that I have learned not ony from my dad but from other troopers who do the same thing.. I only told you that its practically from my dad, because thats where I learned it from, also I wanted you to know I was not making stuff based on one accident I've read about but passing on what I have learned from experts. I too want to be a Trooper when I grow up so I am part of a group called the explorers.. We go on ride alongs, and get classes on certain things from certified instructors. So its not only things I have heard but I have been to accidents and watched exactly what they do, explore the career of law enforcement. So yeah alot of it is what i've learned and since its all true facts that is what I think.. There is no thinking on a subject that is proven.. Theres one answer. Thats the problem to many people "think" the wrong thing, and pass the wrong knowledge on. But you realize they can have Troopers out on an accident scene making up their own mind on how to figure things out, they go by guidelines.

Well, new information came to me today when one of our customers (who knows that I ride) told me she was a witness of the accident. It does appear that the cyclist pulled right out in front of the bus. I checked the speed limit sign nearby and its 55mph. While the cyclist may be at ‘fault’ in this case I believe that intersection needs a light signal or at least a reduction in speed to 45 mph for traffic on US 36. I think this accident underscores the danger of that intersection and the need to make it safer, especially because it gets such high use from motorists and cyclists alike. The customer said she was still trying to come to terms with seeing the cyclist’s mangled body. Keep your heads up everyone!



Thanks Gringorio for sharing that information. That is what I suspected, since I assumed 'highway 36' was a major road and "Broadway" was a side street (if a major one, still). Unless this bus was a thousand feet away going 500 miles an hour, I find it hard to believe that this was not the cyclists fault: the bus clearly was approaching the intersection, and the cyclist did not have the right of way. Not that lacking the right of way stops alot of cyclists these days...

roughstuff

Ryan learn to use the enter key.

It's rather hard to read what you're typing.

Operator learn to read. Or put on some glasses or something, I had no problem rereading it.. Wait let me make it easy for you:

Operator learn to read. Or put on some glasses or

something, I had no problem rereading it..

You've never heard of paragraphs? Your post looks like one big run-on sentence. Please don't take offense in my comment. If it's something you've missed out in school, it's never too late to learn.

Boy if you wern't such an idiot you would realize that periods mark the end of a sentance.. Let me ask you is there not any periods? Well in that case theres no way it could be a run on. This is a frigin forum, not an english classroom. Stop trying to nit pick at things, because you have nothing else to say. I mean come on does it bother you that much? Jesus that long post wasen't even meant for you to read anyway. Please shutup.

By the way mostly all cases if the person is lying they usually always find out with other evidence.

That's actually not so easy to measure. Think about it, if someone lies and does not get caught, how could they possibly make it into the "statistics".

Boy if you wern't such an idiot you would realize that periods mark the end of a sentance.. Let me ask you is there not any periods? Well in that case theres no way it could be a run on. This is a frigin forum, not an english classroom. Stop trying to nit pick at things, because you have nothing else to say. I mean come on does it bother you that much? Jesus that long post wasen't even meant for you to read anyway. Please shutup.

I think a few people around here need to take a moment to read the forum guidelines:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=22263

Let's leave the childish insults out of it and stick to the topic, shall we?

Operator learn to read. Or put on some glasses or something, I had no problem rereading it.. Wait let me make it easy for you:

Operator learn to read. Or put on some glasses or

something, I had no problem rereading it..

Thank you for formatting those last 2 lines so I can read it more easily on my incredibly rare 200x150 resolution screen. :p

That's actually not so easy to measure. Think about it, if someone lies and does not get caught, how could they possibly make it into the "statistics".

Umm what do you mean.. I meant that if someone lies usually they find out the truth, so regardless wether the person lies or not the truth will be found.

I think a few people around here need to take a moment to read the forum guidelines:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=22263

Let's leave the childish insults out of it and stick to the topic, shall we?

Umm howdoes any of this involve you anyway? Do you got a problem with me or something, all the other stuff going on and your going to say im the only one using insults?

Umm what do you mean.. I meant that if someone lies usually they find out the truth, so regardless wether the person lies or not the truth will be found.

I think what ChrisL is saying is that if someone lies and is not found out then no one will find out. Hence, to an investigator it will always seem like they find the truth because in those cases where they don´t find the truth no one will find out. Does that make sense? :)


Umm howdoes any of this involve you anyway? Do you got a problem with me or something, all the other stuff going on and your going to say im the only one using insults?

ChirsL is the forum moderator

Yes and that rarly happens, and I doubt that happened with this bus accident..

Ok if hes the mod then why do I see him participating but not saying anything to other topics not following the guidelines yet, is gonna tell me about following guide lines.

Ryan, Chris is in fact one of the moderators. He will give private and public warnings when needed.

Oh really, so you say everyone that used a curse in this forum even if its covered up with *** gets a private or public warning? No they don't infact I've used that before and never got a warning.. Not until that last debate about the rain did he start giving me "warnings". Listen Chris you need to forget the past, and treat everyone equally even if they get into a dispute with you..

And you cannot honestly say that riding in the rain post did not tick you off, and no matter what you would have singled me out in a topic where I wasn't the only one ivolved.. You did quote my reply and nobody elses.

Yes sometime you do have to think for yourself, and unless you know for fact you should keep your thoughts to yourself. You may be afraid to ask somebody their knowledge, so you'd rather make an idiot of yourself and be wrong.. That only shows you think your a know it all.. I was trying to tell you that ABS are not doing away with skidmarks. Yeah people have their theories and may be wrong.. I knew the facts, and so I shared them so that next time it comes up your not wrong.. You can get offensive, but sometime you should learn that sometimes people arn't just out to prove you wrong but to tell you the fact so that you know longer say things that arn't true causing other people that you tell to be wrong also.. Almost like how rumors work. Also kinda what your saying is true alot of cyclist that are killed are not very skilled, and not using the proper safety gear, or following the laws.. Alot are even people who are drunk riding there bike... I am still young and I am still learning things from my parents. If you'd like to know my father knows nothing of this conversation, however it is knowledge that I have learned not ony from my dad but from other troopers who do the same thing.. I only told you that its practically from my dad, because thats where I learned it from, also I wanted you to know I was not making stuff based on one accident I've read about but passing on what I have learned from experts. I too want to be a Trooper when I grow up so I am part of a group called the explorers.. We go on ride alongs, and get classes on certain things from certified instructors. So its not only things I have heard but I have been to accidents and watched exactly what they do, explore the career of law enforcement. So yeah alot of it is what i've learned and since its all true facts that is what I think.. There is no thinking on a subject that is proven.. Theres one answer. Thats the problem to many people "think" the wrong thing, and pass the wrong knowledge on. But you realize they can have Troopers out on an accident scene making up their own mind on how to figure things out, they go by guidelines.

Look Ryan I didnt set out to offend you. Ok if I had known you were a kid then I would not have been as direct. Accident investigators do a very difficult and important job. I am sure that most of them do it to the best of their abilities. You just asked me why I had a certain point of view and I explained using all the evidence that I am aware of and using (what seemed to me to be) a logical chain of reasoning.

As you grow up you learn that life is not as perfect and "proved" as you seem to think that it is. If you talk to any professional group they tend to give you the impression that they are indispensible and brilliant (particularly if they are looking to recruit you). If you talk to doctors for example- they always get the right diagnosis-just a slight problem that post-mortems often show that they didn't. I am just the same. I am a legal expert and I, of course ALWAYS make the right decision.

Anyway good luck with the trooper stuff. I just hope you don't pull me or ChrisL over or we might be looking forward to a long spell in jail. :)

Oh really, so you say everyone that used a curse in this forum even if its covered up with *** gets a private or public warning? No they don't infact I've used that before and never got a warning.. Not until that last debate about the rain did he start giving me "warnings". Listen Chris you need to forget the past, and treat everyone equally even if they get into a dispute with you..
Boy you'd better learn to pick your battles.

Not until that last debate about the rain did he start giving me "warnings".

That was because I didn't see any of your posts before, and certainly didn't see you call anybody an "idiot" or tell them to "shut up". I don't actually spend enough time here to read literally every post on the forum, perhaps it was in a thread that I didn't read? You need to remember that everyone has a right to participate in this forum, even if they happen to disagree with you.


Listen Chris you need to forget the past, and treat everyone equally even if they get into a dispute with you..

Dude, if I warned everyone who had been in a dispute with me at some point in the four years I've been here, there would be nobody left. I just call it as I see it. If there is a post that you find objectionable, you can use the report option which will send a message to all of the moderators about it, and it will be dealt with.

And yes, the warning was directed at everyone in this thread. I just quoted your post because it was the most obvious example of what I was referring to.

Yes and that rarly happens, and I doubt that happened with this bus accident..

Again I ask, how do any of us know how often the truth remains hidden? Or more to the point, how often is it revealed publicly after being discovered? I learned years ago that you can't trust everything in newspapers or TV news, and the so-called report at the top of this thread is evidence of that.

Well either choose to enforce all the rules, or none. I think the evidence with the type of road and all stands out.. And it probably was the cyclist fault because is mislead the speed of the bus. Which is a common mistake.. I don't see if the bus was going down a daul highway without a stopsign how it could be his fault, unless the cyclist was waiting at the stop sign and the bus swerved and hit him and the stopsign.

Anyway good luck with the trooper stuff. I just hope you don't pull me or ChrisL over or we might be looking forward to a long spell in jail. :)

No reason to take advantage of authority... :)