Professional Cycling For the Fans - Should Lance retire after 6?

Assuming Lance wins #6 this year (I think it's pretty decent odds), should he retire (at least from the TdF) to "give others a chance"? I LOVE watching him go, but I would also like to have no good idea who's going to win and see some foreigners duke it out. Just curious on your thoughts...

No, and he won't. He has already signed a contract to ride next year with Team Discovery, and I hear he plans on riding (and winning) the Giro. Maybe we'll see a Giro-Tour double. He is definitely capable of it assuming age doesn't catch up with him.

He can't dominate forever. Although I think the future looks great for him (judging by his current TDF form (though the race has 'just started'!) and the team he will have next year), I would think that the battle for the Tour will just get more and more intense. My wild guess is that he will attempt to win the TDF in 2005, and attempt to win the Giro in 2006. I would love to see Armstrong fight as hard as he can to win the TDF, for as long as he has a chance at winning it. I would also love to see him battle it out in other great races. I like seeing all great sportsmen try their best for as long as they can (IMO it is best for the sport as well).

I would like to see him give a shot at the giro.

What Brent said.

Also, look at what Lance has done in America for the TDF. Meaning, how many Americans are aware of it take an interest because of him. Anyone think that if he focused on the world cup that he could bring it the attention that he's brought to the tour?

He's in a position to do a lot for cycling. IMO

Armstrong needs to keep racing as long as he can. If he can win 7 or even 8 it will be great.

I find it just astounding that other teams are not doing exactly what he is doing since it has produced wins for the last five tours even when he had a terrible tour in 2003 compared to others he won.

His training focus, climbing and time trialing style, etc.. does not seem to have been tried by any of his major rivals. I mean come on, if the competition has a winning formula at least try it for a race and see if it fits.

With the huge pool of atheletes to pull from I cannot beleive there are not more than just a dozen or so contending Americans in the Euro peloton. I guess we are too into Fatball and beer to cheer on real athletes who are some of the the best conditioned humans on the planet.

I want to see him win at least 7, and next year win the Giro while still winning the 7th tour.

Merckx has the legend wrapped up for being the most dominant so it would be good to see our man do two major grand tour wins in a season to quell the arguments a bit about his focus on the tour alone.

The Giro would be sweet :D Hmmm I can see the t-shirts now: "7 + 1" :)

I just hope that American lose interest in cycling after Lance retires. It would be nice to have another American step forward but I don't see one. I thought Tyler might be but his injury prone.

Lance might get into promotion. Like the United Texas Tour.Here (http://www.unitedtexastour.com/). But I would bet he will be in cycling some how. Might behind the screen.

I'd like to see him seriously race the Giro. The legitimate knock on LA is that his competitive "season" is 23 days long in July. Prior to that he's training or racing to train (not win) and afterwards he's absent from the peloton almost completely. I know this is the era of the "specialist" but he's never even competed the Giro.

On the positive side I did see an interview where he talke about not having ever ridden the Giro. If he doesn't win a 7th (#6 is looking good right now) b/c he's added a Giro title there's certainly no shame and if he pulls the double he'll silence the "old-schoolers" like me who thinks he should race something at least near to a full season. Actually he'll silence us just by racing the 2 GTs.

6 is the magic number, 7 or more isn't irrelevant but nowhere near as important.

:beer:

I just hope that American lose interest in cycling after Lance retires. It would be nice to have another American step forward but I don't see one. I thought Tyler might be but his injury prone.

Tyler is a bit old as well, he only has a couple/few more years in him before the age takes to much out of him (if the crashes don't). We need a strong and hungry 19/20yr old rider out there.

Is it true that in order for the teams to ride in the Tour de France that they have to ride in two other Grand Tours? If so, he'll have to ride those other tours, or risk not being invited back, I would think.

Other than that, if you're not too old to race, why stop? Why not see what else you can accomplish, or what other records you can break? As long as you have the competitive spirit, there's no reason why you can't race until your body basically gives up. He has a very technical, precise superior training method that really keeps him in top form. There's no reason why he can't, or shouldn't, race... well, other than to spend more time with his kids and his foundation. And I would like to see him take in more American riders, like the type Ajay was talking about. Some riders with great potential that he can put under his and Chris Carmichael's wing and develop into a lean, mean cycling machine so that when he does retire, we have 3 or 4 other young guns that can step into the forefront and lead a new American team to multiple, successful victories at the big races.

As a side note, I spoke with the woman who headed the team that planned the United Texas Tour, and she said that they'd signed Lance and his team already for that Tour. She was very excited, and she was also looking for volunteers (hint). I spoke with her back in early, and this was days after US Postal announced they would not sponsor the team next year. When I told her, she wasn't even phased- told me they had Lance's assurance of support and his promise to ride it. So this would be a great chance to be part of history- the longest Tour in the USA. Volunteer!

Koffee

. . .
As a side note, I spoke with the woman who headed the team that planned the United Texas Tour, and she said that they'd signed Lance and his team already for that Tour. She was very excited, and she was also looking for volunteers (hint). . . So this would be a great chance to be part of history- the longest Tour in the USA. Volunteer!

Koffee

Where do I sign up?

Marty

Is it true that in order for the teams to ride in the Tour de France that they have to ride in two other Grand Tours? If so, he'll have to ride those other tours, or risk not being invited back, I would think.

Koffee

Huh? The UCI Pro Tour invites the teams, not the particular grand tour itself. Whether Armstrong races on the team or not would be basically irrelevant. (but who knows, this Pro Tour idea keeps changing and changing...)

I dont think he will come back next year to ride the TdF. After all the bs he is getting from the french media, the crazy basques and the fact that he would be the only one ever to win 6 tours are enough reasons for him to look elsewhere.

As great as he is.. it would be very very hard for him to do the double Giro/Tour... perhaps the Giro/Vuelta might be more attainable and suitable for his legacy.. after all.. he has won all there is to be won in the Tour.. if he wins this year that is.

Why should he retire?

The so called age is pure bull crap, it's not about age but about genes, conditioning and life style.
Carlos Lopez from Portugal broke the marathon world record at 37, year 1985 with 2 hrs,07 min., and 10 sec.

A human being, peaks at 37 or 38, then again is how you lived your life.

If you saw the Olympics Trials yesterday you'd be impressed by Gail Devers, it's gonna be her 5th Olympic and she still kick ass, yesterday she hit the finish line, head to head with anothe runner much younger than her.

Corsaire

Cyclists don't peak at 37 or 38.

Huh? The UCI Pro Tour invites the teams, not the particular grand tour itself. Whether Armstrong races on the team or not would be basically irrelevant. (but who knows, this Pro Tour idea keeps changing and changing...)

Is a change that goes into effect next year? Until now, the tour organizers have, in fact, invited the teams that participate in their respective grand tour. Now, some of the invitations are automatic such as the team of last year's winner and the top teams based on points, etc., but it is the organizers, not UCI, that have determined the criteria and invite the teams.

It will be a shame if Division II level teams are excluded from their own national tours just because they don't have the big points and budgets. I enjoy seeing teams like Panaria in the Giro and some of the smaller Spanish and Portugese teams in the Vuelta.

As to LA retiring, as much as I admire and support him I would just as soon see this be his last TDF. If all goes well and he wins, which I hope he does, he will have set a record that should stand for many years. Everyone is rooting for him to set the record. If he wins and rides again next year I think he has nothing to gain. I am concerned that he will be viewed as greedy and lose some support. And if he doesn't ride well it will be embarassing for him. He probably can win again if he keeps his focus, but why not "retire" from the Tour on a high note.

Personally, I think it would be exciting to see him adjust his training toward winning classics and the World Cup or whatever the new Pro Tour competition is called. To me this would enhance his reputation and demonstrate his quality as a rider.

I dont think he will come back next year to ride the TdF. After all the bs he is getting from the french media, the crazy basques and the fact that he would be the only one ever to win 6 tours are enough reasons for him to look elsewhere.

As great as he is.. it would be very very hard for him to do the double Giro/Tour... perhaps the Giro/Vuelta might be more attainable and suitable for his legacy.. after all.. he has won all there is to be won in the Tour.. if he wins this year that is.
No way he's a true competitor and I think would race the tour even if he loses this year



Cyclists don't peak at 37 or 38.
indeed I'd say with good training dedication and experience 30...

hamilton is older than lance by 6 months. he's not exactly a spring chicken in the cycling world.

Is a change that goes into effect next year? Until now, the tour organizers have, in fact, invited the teams that participate in their respective grand tour. Now, some of the invitations are automatic such as the team of last year's winner and the top teams based on points, etc., but it is the organizers, not UCI, that have determined the criteria and invite the teams.


From what I've read, all Pro Tour teams will be required to race in all grand tours next year. That must mean that the race organizers cannot exclude Pro Tour teams. Far different from what it has always been.



It will be a shame if Division II level teams are excluded from their own national tours just because they don't have the big points and budgets. I enjoy seeing teams like Panaria in the Giro and some of the smaller Spanish and Portugese teams in the Vuelta.

IMO it makes more sense that way (why force big teams to ride when you can have lesser national teams in that WANT to ride?). Some great riders have gotten their chance to shine by having the smaller Div 2 teams in. What might happen is the big teams will just bring their lesser riders. This could hurt the races.

should he retire (at least from the TdF) to "give others a chance"?

It would be nice to see him go out like Seinfeld. Would be more impressive to retire after a solid 7, rather than start coming in 2nd.

However, there is no moral obligation for a winner to concede before his time. He is the Michael Jordan of cycling. No matter how great all the other athletes are, there is one who is just extra special. On the one hand, it is frustrating to have one athlete stand so far from the herd; on the other hand, if the talent exists, there should be no requirement to suppress it.

It will be sad when he retires -- I know b-ball lost some of its appeal when Jordan retired.

It's totally up to him, but if I were in his shoes I'd bow out after this year and finally have some quality time to just chill and experience life. I'm sure his career is very rewarding to him, but there must be so much he's missing out on by dedicating so much to winning one race all year long.

It will be sad when he retires -- I know b-ball lost some of its appeal when Jordan retired.
I just hope when the next great thing in cycling comes along, he doesn't try to be a Lance clone. That's what is hurting basketball. There was all this focus on trying to find someone to be the next Jordan. First it was Grant Hill. Then Vince Carter. Then Kobe Bryant. Forget it. A guy like Jordan comes around once in a blue moon.

I think cycling can really prosper after Lance moves on, if we just let the riders be themselves. Look at golf. Tiger comes along and positively dominates a sport that defies domination. The last couple of years haven't been down years by any stretch. There's been some seriously great golf played by guys like Mickelson, Els, Singh and several guys who have come out of nowhere. As great as Tiger is to watch when he's on, I've simply marvelled at the level of play from the rest of the group.

Watching the TdF pelotons slice through the wind at almost 50km/h has been AWESOME. Short of joining them, falling off the back, and barfing up a lung (on the flats no less), I couldn't be more impressed with the abilities of these cyclists *on the whole*.

He is the Michael Jordan of cycling. No matter how great all the other athletes are, there is one who is just extra special.

It will be sad when he retires -- I know b-ball lost some of its appeal when Jordan retired.

Come on! He is no where close to being Michael Jordan! Maybe he can dominate the sport as Jordan did but the overall influence of him in the sport is no where close to Jordan's bball influence.

Outside of the USA most of the people are rooting for anyone but Armstrong to win. Unlike Jordan, Armstrong is not an athlete who is that well liked across the world. Just take a look at the French and Spanish newspapers and you will see it. Once Armstrong leaves there are going to be a lot of guys who will fill his shoes, unlike Jordan.. i

In fact.. cycling might be better off with a more open field. The TdF would be much more interesting without him at this moment in time.

Armstong is the greatest cyclist of his time, no doubt about it.. although as I said.. he hasnt got the charisma of Jordan and although he is well liked in the states.. I know for a fact in some European countries he isnt liked at all.

Uh...

Lance is far from being the greatest cyclist of all time.

Come on! He is no where close to being Michael Jordan! Maybe he can dominate the sport as Jordan did but the overall influence of him in the sport is no where close to Jordan's bball influence.


That is why he said he is the Michael Jordan of cycling.

He is well liked in France. Keep in mind that the media doesn't necessarily represent the public.


Uh...

Lance is far from being the greatest cyclist of all time.

He didn't say that.

Lance is one of the better riders of his generation.

You're right, brent dube. I misread it.

Come on! He is no where close to being Michael Jordan! Maybe he can dominate the sport as Jordan did but the overall influence of him in the sport is no where close to Jordan's bball influence.

Outside of the USA most of the people are rooting for anyone but Armstrong to win. Unlike Jordan, Armstrong is not an athlete who is that well liked across the world. Just take a look at the French and Spanish newspapers and you will see it. Once Armstrong leaves there are going to be a lot of guys who will fill his shoes, unlike Jordan.. i

In fact.. cycling might be better off with a more open field. The TdF would be much more interesting without him at this moment in time.

Armstong is the greatest cyclist of his time, no doubt about it.. although as I said.. he hasnt got the charisma of Jordan and although he is well liked in the states.. I know for a fact in some European countries he isnt liked at all.

Do the French and Spanish know who Michael Jordan is? I didn't know Basketball was very popular in European contries.

LA may not have the charisma of Jordan, but in his defense.... LA has had much more of a hate/hate relationship with the media. The media is the only way any of us get to know Lance Armstrong and Michael Jordon. You have to consider that LA has had to deal mostly with the European media who have never liked or treated him very well. The French media took every opportunity to accuse and put him down. The American media simply follows the lead, and feels obligated to ask similar questions. Most of his "unfortunate" quotes are from being in a defensive situation with the questioning of the media. I can't imagine keeping my composure in the same situation. Can you imagine an American basketball or football player having to answer some of those questions over and over and over and over.....? It would take a special person not to blow a gasket!

I'm not trying to take anything away from Jordan. It's just something to think about. Jordan is an American that dominated an American sport, and LA is an American (and cocky) that dominates a European sport. Dont' forget, Jordan was cocky too.

Do the French and Spanish know who Michael Jordan is? I didn't know Basketball was very popular in European contries.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Jordan. It's just something to think about. Jordan is an American that dominated an American sport, and LA is an American (and cocky) that dominates a European sport. Dont' forget, Jordan was cocky too.


I was in Vietnam, in Danang riding past a rice field where a family was working. I stopped and talked to the family, who spoke like 5 words of english. When I told them I was from Chicago, they said "Michael Jordan... Chicago Bulls". The other word of english they knew was hello.

When Jordan was playing b-ball, there wasn't a place in the world I went to where if I told them I was from Chicago, the people didn't say the same thing- Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls. Basketball is an American sport, but Michael Jordan was one of the most recognized sports figures on the planet during his heyday.

A little off topic, but just thought I'd say something.

Koffee

The French media took every opportunity to accuse and put him down.Is this really true? Is there anyone on BikeForums that regularly reads French newspapers, listens to French radio, and watches French TV that can let us know first-hand whether or not the above statement is true?

Thanks.

Is this really true? Is there anyone on BikeForums that regularly reads French newspapers, listens to French radio, and watches French TV that can let us know first-hand whether or not the above statement is true?

Thanks.

Ummmm... we get it from Lance Armstrong- http://www.lancearmstrong.com/99tdfwords.html

How about some other sources: http://www.bike.com/template.asp?date=7%2F29%2F2002+3%3A31%3A40+PM&lsectionnumber=1 at bike.com.

Let's not forget his recent recount of the french media trying to bribe the hotel management to let them into his room while he was out racing. He said they were looking for drugs, and he was afraid of drugs being planted in his room: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125824,00.html for fox news.

Etc. etc. It's pretty common knowledge that the french media has been dogging Lance since his first Tour win.

Koffee

psssh... what is he? stupid? why would anyone think he should quit after six? cus they got bored with him? hell no! he should do whatever the hell he wants, cus that's what's worth doin!

Some of these remarks are truly funny.
What I find interesting is the comments of, yes he should retire...the Tour would be better...blah, blah, blah. I hear the same in F1, with Schumacher. It is old, it is a tired argument. It is what jealous, small minded, and petty people do when they are at a loss for any real, logical, and intelligent statements.

Even if you don't like the man, you would have to be somewhat ignorant
not to realize he is one of the greatest cyclists, and athletes of our time.
He is about to do something that no other cyclists has ever accomplished.
We are witnessing history along with an amazing display of determination, ability, and commitment from a man who was practially dead. When the next generation of cycling fans and participants see old clips and read all the articles about Lance, they will undoubtedly ask the old timers, what was it like to watch
Lance race? What was it like to compete against him? Those future questions
are being answered now, and we are fortunate enough to be here right now, watching such a display and a such a feat. I believe he will get his sixth, and even his seventh, and I hope he continues to dominate. It is not Lances job to
slack, or ease up, it is all the other riders responsibility to rise up to challenge
and become better riders, better teams, and beat Lance if they can.

What I also find interesting is the people who are indifferent, or have disdain
for Lance and what he has already accomplished, and not realizing what
he has done in respect to beating cancer. If it were someone very close to these people who critize maybe they would better understand the personal triumph
and adversities he overcame. It is easy to discount something or someone
when you do not know them on a personal level, god forbid any of these haters
have the disease of cancer or some other potentially fatal disease inflict them
or someone they love dearly. What would they do then? What would they say then? It is so easy to cast stones isn't it. Rubbish, all rubbish this retiring nonsense. Detractors and haters tend to use Pathological thinking, which is intertwined with emotion, and usually devoid of fact. When you strip away pathological thinking down to its core, it has no basis, no reason, and it is
only destructive thinking. Where as logical thinking seeks conclusion by fact,
and the facts of Lance Armstrongs records and accomplishments speak for themselves. Finally, why should Lance or any star be compared to anyone else?
Lance isn't Jordan, Lance is Lance, and he is dominating his sport. It is a simple concept to grasp, individuals who excel at their discipline should be recognized for that and only that.

Oh and regarding the french and spanish...please. No really, please.
The remarks and observations made by these particular individuals are nothing more than seething hate and jealousy for the man, for Americans and for our Country. It is a thinly disguised vail of loathing and malice. Fortunately, not all the people of those countries feel that way.

Ummmm... we get it from Lance Armstrong- http://www.lancearmstrong.com/99tdfwords.htmlI was thinking about something a bit more recent. 1999 was awhile ago. Only saw one name, Bassons, mentioned. Does he represent the entire French media? No, he was a rider on the Festina team who didn't take any drugs and went on a crusade against drugs. Has Bassons made any accusations directed at Armstrong himself? From what I've gathered, he's skeptical of all the leading riders and has not singled out any one of them.


How about some other sources: http://www.bike.com/template.asp?date=7%2F29%2F2002+3%3A31%3A40+PM&lsectionnumber=1 at bike.com.Again, "french media" without indicating who they are. How come a bunch of US media outlets are mentioned by name but not one french one is singled out by name?



Let's not forget his recent recount of the french media trying to bribe the hotel management to let them into his room while he was out racing. He said they were looking for drugs, and he was afraid of drugs being planted in his room: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125824,00.html for fox news.
Which was denied by the french reporter: "The France 3 reporter, Hugues Huet, said he went to the hotel to do interviews about Armstrong's teammates and that he chatted to the hotel manager for a few minutes. But he denied that he sought access to the champion's room." Maybe, someone gave Armstrong bad information? I don't know, but there are two sides to every story. It would be interesting to hear the hotel manager's side of the story though, wouldn't it? [/quote]


Etc. etc. It's pretty common knowledge that the french media has been dogging Lance since his first Tour win.

KoffeeNo worse than what the US media does to Barry Bonds, is it? I question the statement: "It's common knowledge that the french media". Where are you getting your information from? I was hoping to get a response from someone who actually reads, listens to, and watches "french media". Since you've previously admitted that you don't know the language and never visited the country, I don't see you as very authoritative on this subject. Maybe what everyone really means is --- "parts of the french media."

Do the French and Spanish know who Michael Jordan is? I didn't know Basketball was very popular in European contries

Of course they know! they also know who Armstrong is but Jordans popularity far far exceeds Armstrongs. You think Bball isnt popular in Europe? The Dream Team was argubly the biggest story of the 92 Barcelona Olympics. Jordan was the most sought after athlete.

Some of these remarks are truly funny.
What I find interesting is the comments of, yes he should retire...the Tour would be better...blah, blah, blah. I hear the same in F1, with Schumacher. It is old, it is a tired argument. It is what jealous, small minded, and petty people do when they are at a loss for any real, logical, and intelligent statements..

As an spectator point of view, its not as entertaining when you know who is going to win after half way of a race. F-1 is trying hard to make it hard for Schumi to win cause they know his dominance hurts the sport. TdF could be argued suffers of the same syndrome. Last year was a great Tour, competitive up until the last ITT. It has nothing do to if Schumi or Lance win every time its just that mid way point the Tour its pretty much decided who is going to win - the spectacle suffers. I like Schumi but as Lance I also rather see other people win, not cause of who he is or represents but as an spectator is more entertaining.


Even if you don't like the man, you would have to be somewhat ignorant
not to realize he is one of the greatest cyclists, and athletes of our time.
He is about to do something that no other cyclists has ever accomplished.
We are witnessing history along with an amazing display of determination, ability, and commitment from a man who was practially dead. When the next generation of cycling fans and participants see old clips and read all the articles about Lance, they will undoubtedly ask the old timers, what was it like to watch
Lance race? What was it like to compete against him? Those future questions
are being answered now, and we are fortunate enough to be here right now, watching such a display and a such a feat. I believe he will get his sixth, and even his seventh, and I hope he continues to dominate. It is not Lances job to
slack, or ease up, it is all the other riders responsibility to rise up to challenge
and become better riders, better teams, and beat Lance if they can..

He is the greatest rider of his generation or the post-Indurain era. Cycling fans realise that, like him or not.


What I also find interesting is the people who are indifferent, or have disdain
for Lance and what he has already accomplished, and not realizing what
he has done in respect to beating cancer. If it were someone very close to these people who critize maybe they would better understand the personal triumph
and adversities he overcame. It is easy to discount something or someone
when you do not know them on a personal level, god forbid any of these haters
have the disease of cancer or some other potentially fatal disease inflict them
or someone they love dearly. What would they do then? What would they say then? It is so easy to cast stones isn't it. Rubbish, all rubbish this retiring nonsense. Detractors and haters tend to use Pathological thinking, which is intertwined with emotion, and usually devoid of fact. When you strip away pathological thinking down to its core, it has no basis, no reason, and it is
only destructive thinking. Where as logical thinking seeks conclusion by fact,
and the facts of Lance Armstrongs records and accomplishments speak for themselves. Finally, why should Lance or any star be compared to anyone else?
Lance isn't Jordan, Lance is Lance, and he is dominating his sport. It is a simple concept to grasp, individuals who excel at their discipline should be recognized for that and only that..

A couple of members in my family have cancer (grandparents) but still I have other cyclists I like more and may I even dare to say - i would rather see other cyclists win the tour! I truely respect Armstrong for beating cancer and for dominating the tour. I recognize his achievement but still I like other cyclists more. Its just not fair to say people have to make of Armstrong their favorite cyclist cause he managed to overcome cancer (I know you didnt say that but with some people Ive talked to they always come up with this argument). He is a great and true example, thats for sure and I like him but as said.. i like others better.



Oh and regarding the french and spanish...please. No really, please.
The remarks and observations made by these particular individuals are nothing more than seething hate and jealousy for the man, for Americans and for our Country. It is a thinly disguised vail of loathing and malice. Fortunately, not all the people of those countries feel that way.

Come on.. now its an anti-American thing?? So either you like him or you are anti-american? :rolleyes: He isnt liked cause he is too cocky and too good, ok ok and in some cases American (but not in most cases). European countries in some cases dislike other EU countries more than they dislike the USA - example the spanish would rather see Voelker win (French) rather than Armstrong and as a whole the Spanish dislike more the French than the Americans - so please dont say its an anti american thing to explain it all. Hamilton on the other hand is really well liked and he is American - the horror! :eek:

Its not some individuals that dont like him.. its a wide spread thing. Im not German, Im Costa Rican and I read daily the Spanish newspapers and listen to the transmissions of the tour in either German or Spanish and he isnt that well liked as you might think - specially in Spain. All of the Spanish people who i know and that follow the Tour would rather see anyone but Armstrong win. In Germany well - since Jan has been 2nd some many times to Armstrong he isnt that much liked either. You wont hear the Armstong bashing on the German media as much as in Spain but again most of the people I know would also rather see anyone else but Armstrong win.

But you know.. in most cases its not an anti-Armstrong thing, let me explain, its more people wanting to see an more competitive Tour, new winners, etc. If he had never won a Tour before I would most probably be rooting for him to win now. I just like to see a close tour and some new winners for a change. Just cause some of us would like to someone else win it doesnt automatically mean we dislike Armstrong or dont recognize his achievement on and off the bike.

Points well taken, and I am glad you didn't put words in my mouth.
But also I think you mis-judged some of my comments as well.

Listen , i would love to make more money and have a bigger house,
So,why shouldn't my wealthier neighbor sell his house to me, for less money than market value? Or how about my boss give up some of his hard earned salary and give me a portion? Do you see the point here?
You only get what you EARN in this life, One does not get passage
into the promised land simply by asking. Lance has earned everything he has accomplished in cycling. Clear thinking people realize this, and understand
that is up to the others to rise up and improve themselves to the point
of being able to beat Lance straight up. In life there are people who excel at
somethings, and they tend to dominate whatever it is they are focused on.
Whether it is money, fame, knowledge, or any other one minded goal. This
is what seperates these extraordinary individuals, and freedom enables them to do so. Suggesting that "the TdF would be better off without Lance " lacks real substance. What? If a sport becomes dominated by someone then it should be sanitized? What you and many others are suggesting almost flirts on the edge of socialized competition! Which is to say at the least, is absurd.
To the people who think this way, it is just too bad for them right now.
It is what it is, and it shall be, until another challenger can defeat Armstrong
head to head. Until that day...life carries on.

I have no idea if Lance Armstrong will retire if he wins 6 TDFs. I would like to see him compete in something other than the TDF though. 2008 Olympics, an Iron Man in Kona, or maybe he could put together a few teams for an around the world adventure race for the benefit of his cancer foundation.

Should he retire ? Only he can figure that. Perhaps he has larger ambitions that the TDF.

Dan

What? If a sport becomes dominated by someone then it should be sanitized? What you and many others are suggesting almost flirts on the edge of socialized competition! Which is to say at the least, is absurd.
To the people who think this way, it is just too bad for them right now.
It is what it is, and it shall be, until another challenger can defeat Armstrong
head to head. Until that day...life carries on.

My friend, I never said he doesnt deserve to win, its obvious he is head and shoulders above the competition. I have nothing against him, I wouldnt like him failing to win cause he falls down and breaks a leg.

In fact as an spectator point of view it wouldnt be bad if he wins by a close margin, like last year. As an spectator I want a closely fought tour, something which were arent having nowadays. Its not an anti-Armstrong feeling or that im against people getting what they deserves. I just want an competitive tour. I wouldnt even like one of my favorite cyclist winning the Tour by a huge margin.

In regards to making rules to help benefit a 'closer' race, like in the Tour or in F1...
It goes down to sport vs entertainment.
When the FIA starts making rules just because Ferrari does well, they are trying to promote 'entertainment' over sport.
I feel that if a competitor 'dominates', it can be a great thing to watch. I'm more inclined to want the rivals to do better than want the organizations to change the rules to make the lesser competitors more likely to win.
I value sport over 'entertainment' (as I find purer sport to be more entertaining). This is why I've been disapointed in F1 and NASCAR lately.

Brent makes a good point. Sport verses entertainment.

I want FIA to keep their hands off F1 as much as possible. It's the free market approach to racing. The strong stay at the top and the weak get pushed to the bottom. It's the same with the TDF.

Another part of me would like to think that someone other than Schuey may win. As it is this season it's pretty much a given that he will win on Sunday. Though it's an amazing techinal and driving feat, if you want to see passing and real competition you need to look at the lower places. When was the last pass for first place in F1?

Lance has all but wrapped up this TDF. For drama we now need to look at second, third fourth, etc. places.

I was thinking about something a bit more recent. 1999 was awhile ago. Only saw one name, Bassons, mentioned. Does he represent the entire French media? No, he was a rider on the Festina team who didn't take any drugs and went on a crusade against drugs. Has Bassons made any accusations directed at Armstrong himself? From what I've gathered, he's skeptical of all the leading riders and has not singled out any one of them.

Again, "french media" without indicating who they are. How come a bunch of US media outlets are mentioned by name but not one french one is singled out by name?



Which was denied by the french reporter: "The France 3 reporter, Hugues Huet, said he went to the hotel to do interviews about Armstrong's teammates and that he chatted to the hotel manager for a few minutes. But he denied that he sought access to the champion's room." Maybe, someone gave Armstrong bad information? I don't know, but there are two sides to every story. It would be interesting to hear the hotel manager's side of the story though, wouldn't it?
No worse than what the US media does to Barry Bonds, is it? I question the statement: "It's common knowledge that the french media". Where are you getting your information from? I was hoping to get a response from someone who actually reads, listens to, and watches "french media". Since you've previously admitted that you don't know the language and never visited the country, I don't see you as very authoritative on this subject. Maybe what everyone really means is --- "parts of the french media."

Of course, you'll always have a comeback, so why bother to post more examples? Lance comments about the french media sometimes when he talks- very diplomatic, but his insinuations are definitely there for people to read behind the lines- the media does criticize him. I also can't see how you can be surprised that the french media would DENY they tried to break into his room. Sheesh, what, are they brain dead? Do you really think they would admit to that kind of behavior? Of course they would deny it! It would be silly to think they would admit to something of that. Even Phil and Paul talked about the french media and the people today when commentating on the race (Stage 15)... What, that's not good enough for you? And we are not talking about Barry Bonds... why the heck are you bringing him up? What does that have to do with the french?

You asked for examples, I gave examples, and now, it's not good enough... there is always an excuse. Why don't you get on google yourself and look up the french media and Lance Armstrong? If nothing comes up in the search engines, then you can vindicate yourself and post it. Otherwise, give it up. There is obvious a bias against Lance with the french media. They don't like him, and I don't see it letting up. That's not to say every media outlet in France is after him- that would be ridiculous. But there definitely are a few media outlets who throw the insinuations about Lance allegedly doping without providing any proof, and to deny that it is not happening is being obtuse, and you're definitely living with tunnel vision, dude.

I respect Lance for his incredible cycling ability- I don't idolize or hero worship because he has flaws too- and for those flaws, I don't really care too much for him, nor would I go out of my way to meet him. But I can make some casual observances, and this is definitely something that anyone could see.

Koffee

When was the last pass for first place in F1?


That is where they (FIA) go wrong. This is a bit off topic but it can relate to cycling today.
They could change the car rules (which they will do in time) and the tracks. But they are putting the cars in the same situations as 15 years ago... when 15 years ago, mechanical grip and the like ment much more, and passing was possible. People argue that passing just takes skill... but with today's F1... in most cases, you simply cannot pass due to the physics of the cars and the track. Changes to the current situation could benefit the racing, while also benefiting the sporting element of it (more exciting racing while being more 'fair' racing as well). Of course we would much rather see Schumacher battle to either gain or lose the lead on the track rather than in the pits.

Cycling may not need the change, as it is quite simple in comparison to F1 (cars in F1 change quite quicker than cyclists and their bicycles do). Though I would like to see some of the classics be longer and tougher :D

My friend, I never said he doesnt deserve to win, its obvious he is head and shoulders above the competition. I have nothing against him, I wouldnt like him failing to win cause he falls down and breaks a leg.

In fact as an spectator point of view it wouldnt be bad if he wins by a close margin, like last year. As an spectator I want a closely fought tour, something which were arent having nowadays. Its not an anti-Armstrong feeling or that im against people getting what they deserves. I just want an competitive tour. I wouldnt even like one of my favorite cyclist winning the Tour by a huge margin.

Ok, but your response still makes no sense. What you want! That is too funny.
You want a more competitive tour...sure, and I want a billion dollars.

So what are you going to do to make the tour more competitive?
Nothing I suspect, except complain about it.

Come on, lets look at this logically, clear headed. The tour is the way it is because one man
has out trained, out strategized, and out rode his competitiors and you want to what?
Put restrictions on him? Force him to retire? What is it that you really want, what is your motivation
besideds your stated intention of a more competitive tour? What is the sub-plot?

Because you will never convince me that there isn't a sub-conscience thought that you or anyone else has which wants to see Lance out of the Tour for what ever reason. Too much whinning and crying and flailing about regarding Lance to make it as simple as you and many, many others say about a more competitive Tour. But maybe I am wrong here, maybe you really want a more competitive Tour.
I am just very suspect of all the bashing and dis-respect.

No worse than what the US media does to Barry Bonds, is it?

Armstrong submits to regular blood tests. Bonds has done no such thing.

Hmm.

I am 100% behind LA and want him to CRUSH most of his competitors by several minutes to silence the bozos who are still saying that he demonstrated weakness and gave hope to his closest opponents last year because he only won by a minute. The fact is he showed his and his team's overwhelming strength by winning at all despite numerous freak incidents. Though actually my dream finish would have been for him to have beaten Tyler by about a minute in a very competitive race but crush everyone else by 6-8 minutes. Don't think for a minute that I am not behind Lance. I will also support him if he rides again next year.

However, I think it would be a great demonstration of noblesse oblige for him to not ride the Tour, as I discussed in my earlier post. He may have no choice. The sponsorship deal with Discovery Channel may have included assurances that he will ride

Brent makes a good point. Sport verses entertainment.

I want FIA to keep their hands off F1 as much as possible. It's the free market approach to racing. The strong stay at the top and the weak get pushed to the bottom. It's the same with the TDF.

Another part of me would like to think that someone other than Schuey may win. As it is this season it's pretty much a given that he will win on Sunday. Though it's an amazing techinal and driving feat, if you want to see passing and real competition you need to look at the lower places. When was the last pass for first place in F1?

Lance has all but wrapped up this TDF. For drama we now need to look at second, third fourth, etc. places.

This is a very clear, and very logical statement.
I agree about the FIA, hands off, and yes, it is good when someone else wins,
but I am in awe of what Schumacher and Ferrari are doing at the moment. I think
it is the best in a sport showing his abilities and I am enjoying that very much.

Did anyone read the article in cycling news about the victory of Euskaltel and Mayo?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=features/euskaltel_victory
Good article

Ok, but your response still makes no sense. What you want! That is too funny.
You want a more competitive tour...sure, and I want a billion dollars.

Whats is exactly so funny about me posting what I would like in the TDF? Last time i checked this is an open forum and people can post whatever they think- and by the way I also want a billion dollars :) Im sorry if what i write makes no sense to you, maybe its my english - you see Im not a native english speaker, if you dont understand something I wrote I could try to write it in some other way.



So what are you going to do to make the tour more competitive?
Nothing I suspect, except complain about it.

Just for starters.. I would make Armstrong peddle with just one leg, oh yeah, his left leg that is. Seriously now, i would do absolutely nothing, the best man should win, nothing wrong with that.. i have never said Lance shouldnt win. Im just saying i would enjoy the tour being more competitive - and thats an opinion shared by a lot of people. I will continue giving my opinion, or complaining as you say, about things as every other poster in this forum does.



Come on, lets look at this logically, clear headed. The tour is the way it is because one man
has out trained, out strategized, and out rode his competitiors and you want to what?
Put restrictions on him? Force him to retire? What is it that you really want, what is your motivation
besideds your stated intention of a more competitive tour? What is the sub-plot?

Where are you going with all of this? What motivation, sub-plot? Do you read lots of conspiracy books? :) I never mentioned restrictions, you are making me sound as if I said the best man shouldnt win or that I would change something for the tour to be more competitive. The tour is fine as it is, the rules are fine (maybe that TTT - but that another story) - whats so difficult for you to understand that many many people would like to see this tour to be more competitive? What I would like is to see other cyclists improve and be on par with Armstrong but at the end of the day the best man should win!



Because you will never convince me that there isn't a sub-conscience thought that you or anyone else has which wants to see Lance out of the Tour for what ever reason.

My dear friend dc70, Im not trying to convince you of anything. If you make statements such as this one you make any kind of exchanging of ideas impossible. Im here to discuss and express/read ideas, im in no quest of convincing you of anything. If you just close your head and say people must have sub-conscious reasons to disagree with you then there isnt much space to share ideas.


Too much whinning and crying and flailing about regarding Lance to make it as simple as you and many, many others say about a more competitive Tour. But maybe I am wrong here, maybe you really want a more competitive Tour.
I am just very suspect of all the bashing and dis-respect.

Hey now, I was careful and respectful enough not to put words on your mouth, so please dont do that to me. I never bashed or disrepected Lance, I wrote he is the best cyclist since Indurain and the best one today. The best man should win, and today he is the best man and he should win - simple as that.

Have you ever thought that maybe you have pre-conceived thoughts about people who are not all out rooting for armstrong? or maybe for people who just want a more competitive tour? I just want a more competitive tour - simple as that!