Road Cycling - Armstrong great ... Merckx the greatest.

Even if Lance wins his sixth TdF, and I think he will. I hope he does. That will not make him the greatest cyclist of all time. Lance will most likely agree.

Eddy Merckx won five, was on his way to a sixth, but lost most likely due to a disturbed fan. He won his tours while riding a full race schedule, and did not specielize. Some may argue for Coppi, Auncateil (sp?),
Indurain ... forget Hinault, his attitude sucks, but for my money ... Merckx is the greatest cyclist of all time.

Oh yea, Go Lance ...

.......ok? :bday: ducks have webbed feet!! :) is this equally as random?

you have to remember that lance isn't done after this tour either. so, even if he wins 6, he'll probably do well or win in other races in the next year or two. i don't think it's a fair comparision when he hasn't even retired yet.

If Bonds breaks Aaron's record, does that make him the greater ballplayer? Was Aaron considered "greater" than Ruth?

It's the debate of the ages. Different eras, different technologies and different priorities.

I think it's fair to include both their names in any discussion of who was the greatest.

55/Rad

Even if Lance wins his sixth TdF, and I think he will. I hope he does. That will not make him the greatest cyclist of all time. Lance will most likely agree.

Eddy Merckx won five, was on his way to a sixth, but lost most likely due to a disturbed fan. He won his tours while riding a full race schedule, and did not specielize. Some may argue for Coppi, Auncateil (sp?),
Indurain ... forget Hinault, his attitude sucks, but for my money ... Merckx is the greatest cyclist of all time.

Oh yea, Go Lance ...



i'll see your full race schedule difficulty, and i'll raise you the difficulty of ... overcoming metastatic testicular cancer.

everyone is entitled to their opinion, and mine is that what lance has accomplished already in the face of what he had to deal with makes him the greatest athlete of all time. i'd feel the same if he had only one TDF win, much less 5 with maybe more to come.

i don't follow cycling, but ya gotta admit the cancer angle takes it to a whole 'nother level.

If Bonds breaks Aaron's record, does that make him the greater ballplayer? Was Aaron considered "greater" than Ruth?

It's the debate of the ages. Different eras, different technologies and different priorities.

I think it's fair to include both their names in any discussion of who was the greatest.

55/Rad

Very true. Different eras, different technologies. I wish there was another way to measure athletes besides the sport they play. Think about all the greats back in the day how they would fair with better technology as far as equipment, training, diet and psychology. It is tough to compare someone from a couple of decades ago to someone of today. These are fun discussions.

I have to agree with the cancer angle also, and we'll see what the future holds as well.

I just threw out an opinion, hoping to hear what other people think.

That's what makes this forum fun ... lots of opinions. :D

Even if Lance wins his sixth TdF, and I think he will. I hope he does. That will not make him the greatest cyclist of all time. Lance will most likely agree.

Eddy Merckx won five, was on his way to a sixth, but lost most likely due to a disturbed fan. He won his tours while riding a full race schedule, and did not specielize. Some may argue for Coppi, Auncateil (sp?),
Indurain ... forget Hinault, his attitude sucks, but for my money ... Merckx is the greatest cyclist of all time.

Oh yea, Go Lance ...
I agree with you completely. But this whole thing about the "greatest" is really but a black hole of disagreement. Many judge the greatest to be whomever wins the most Tours. I don't agree with that but who's to say I right? Personally I believe the US Postal team is probably one of the top 3 or 4 teams ever in the tour and they have a great rider and leader in Armstrong. Armstrong couldn't win 6 tours outside of his team. He probably couldn't have won more than 2. Please don't get upset, after all it is a team sport. The reason Merckx gets my vote is that he was THE strongest rider at the tour. Period. He could've won riding with other teams. He dominated each tour he rode in. He won all of the various jerseys. And, he won more tour stages in a single tour than Lance has ever thought about.

If Bonds breaks Aaron's record, does that make him the greater ballplayer? Was Aaron considered "greater" than Ruth?

It's the debate of the ages. Different eras, different technologies and different priorities.

I think it's fair to include both their names in any discussion of who was the greatest.

55/Rad

This is an interesting question. But ask yourself, if the Babe had hit home runs like he did, hit for average like Ted Williams, ran bases like Ty Cobb, and played defense like Honus Wagner, would there be any question about whether the Babe was the greatest? No.

This is what Eddy did. He was the best in all disciplines. NO ONE before him or after him has won more of any kind of race than he has, except track events. NO ONE before him or after him has excelled in every facet of his chosen sport like Eddy did in every facet of his.

Which may make him the greatest athlete of all time.

In a recent interview with a French newspaper, when asked(again) if he would win his 6th TDF, Armstrong downplayed the significance of the accomplishment by saying that, "...if Merckx had chosen to focus only on winning the TDF, he'd probably be winning the thing today." :)

I think Neil Armstrong is the best bicyclanaut :)

This is an interesting question. But ask yourself, if the Babe had hit home runs like he did, hit for average like Ted Williams, ran bases like Ty Cobb, and played defense like Honus Wagner, would there be any question about whether the Babe was the greatest? No.

This is what Eddy did. He was the best in all disciplines. NO ONE before him or after him has won more of any kind of race than he has, except track events. NO ONE before him or after him has excelled in every facet of his chosen sport like Eddy did in every facet of his.

Which may make him the greatest athlete of all time.

In a recent interview with a French newspaper, when asked(again) if he would win his 6th TDF, Armstrong downplayed the significance of the accomplishment by saying that, "...if Merckx had chosen to focus only on winning the TDF, he'd probably be winning the thing today." :)

I know it's off the point of this thread, but Babe Ruth was also a great pitcher before being converted to a right fielder. None of the other greats ever did any pitching.

This is an interesting question. But ask yourself, if the Babe had hit home runs like he did, hit for average like Ted Williams, ran bases like Ty Cobb, and played defense like Honus Wagner, would there be any question about whether the Babe was the greatest? No.

This is what Eddy did. He was the best in all disciplines. NO ONE before him or after him has won more of any kind of race than he has, except track events. NO ONE before him or after him has excelled in every facet of his chosen sport like Eddy did in every facet of his.

Which may make him the greatest athlete of all time.


Ruth did hit for average like Williams (.342 vs .344) and fielded his position statistically better than Wagner (.968 vs .947) Granted, he didn't run like Cobb but he did have 136 triples in his career, which is an amazing number given today's standards. And he was a great pitcher. The thing about Ruth was that he was so good in many of the disciplines and he totally changed and revolutionized the way the game was played.

I think the same could be said for Eddy in many respects. And I would agree that he could be considered one the greatest athletes of all time.

One of the things to be considered in any discussion about the greatest at anything is how much they changed the way things were done at the time they were doing it. Think about it - Ruth, Nagurski, Chamberlain, Gretzky, Merckx and Armstrong, Nicklaus & Woods...they all made everybody else change the way they approached the game.

55/Rad

Ruth did hit for average like Williams (.342 vs .344) and fielded his position statistically better than Wagner (.968 vs .947) Granted, he didn't run like Cobb but he did have 136 triples in his career, which is an amazing number given today's standards. And he was a great pitcher. The thing about Ruth was that he was so good in many of the disciplines and he totally changed and revolutionized the way the game was played.

I think the same could be said for Eddy in many respects. And I would agree that he could be considered one the greatest athletes of all time.

One of the things to be considered in any discussion about the greatest at anything is how much they changed the way things were done at the time they were doing it. Think about it - Ruth, Nagurski, Chamberlain, Gretzky, Merckx and Armstrong, Nicklaus & Woods...they all made everybody else change the way they approached the game.

55/Rad

I was not aware that his lifetime batting avg. was that close to Williams. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Wagner's numbers at shortstop would have to be considered far superior to The Babe's in the outfield.

Still, these numbers kind of make the point that Merckx was so completely dominant. The Babe, while a great natural athlete, was matched in all his accomplishments by other players at one point or another. No one has matched Merckx in any of his numbers, in fact no one has come close. Hinault has ten Grand Tour victories to Merckx's eleven, but only ~ 60% as many total pro victories as Merckx. No one has as many Grand Tours, Monuments, Classics, or Total victories.

I've tried to come up with another athlete who so completely dominated HIS SPORT as Merckx, and I just can't. Maybe someone else can.

I was not aware that his lifetime batting avg. was that close to Williams. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Wagner's numbers at shortstop would have to be considered far superior to The Babe's in the outfield.
Wagner was a great fielding shortstop and certainly considered a "better fielder" overall than Ruth, but his lifetime fielding percentage was not as high as Ruth's. As a shortstop, he had many more chances and he played in the era before Ruth when gloves were nothing more that a strip of leather.



I've tried to come up with another athlete who so completely dominated HIS SPORT as Merckx, and I just can't. Maybe someone else can.
How about Earl Anthony? :)

55/Rad

How about Earl Anthony? :) 55/Rad

...wins The Firestone Tournament of Champions! Watched that a few times. :)

What will you guys say if lance wins 7 or 8 TDF's and 2 or 3 other grand tours? You can't compare athletes from this era to athletes of any other era.

I've tried to come up with another athlete who so completely dominated HIS SPORT as Merckx, and I just can't. Maybe someone else can.


Wayne Gretzky. Plain and simple the most dominant player in hockey history. And his records are ridiculously so far ahead of everyone else that they will stand the test of time.

Wayne Gretzky. Plain and simple the most dominant player in hockey history. And his records are ridiculously so far ahead of everyone else that they will stand the test of time.

Ok...well, let's hear it. I don't follow hockey so I don't know what records you're talking about.

Wayne Gretzky. Plain and simple the most dominant player in hockey history. And his records are ridiculously so far ahead of everyone else that they will stand the test of time.
AMEN

Ok...well, let's hear it. I don't follow hockey so I don't know what records you're talking about.

Wayne's records
GOALS:
MOST GOALS: 894
MOST GOALS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS: 1,016 (894 regular season, 122 playoffs)
MOST GOALS, ONE SEASON: 92 in 1981-82
MOST GOALS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS: 100 in 1983-84 (87 regular season, 13 playoffs)
MOST GOALS, 50 GAMES FROM START OF SEASON: 61 in 1981-82 and 1983-84
MOST GOALS, ONE PERIOD: 4 vs STL, Feb. 18, 1981, 3rd period (TIED)

ASSISTS:
MOST ASSISTS: 1,963
MOST ASSISTS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS: 2,223 (1,963 regular season, 260 playoffs)
MOST ASSISTS, ONE SEASON: 163 in 1985-86
MOST ASSISTS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS: 174 in 1985-86 (163 regular season, 11 playoffs)
MOST ASSISTS, ONE GAME: 7 - 3 times: vs WAS, Feb. 15, 1980; at CHI, Dec. 11, 1985; vs QUE, Feb. 14, 1986 (TIED)
MOST ASSISTS, ONE ROAD GAME: 7 - at CHI, Dec. 11, 1985 (TIED)

POINTS:
MOST POINTS: 2,857
MOST POINTS, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS: 3,239 (2,857 regular season, 382 playoffs)
MOST POINTS, ONE SEASON: 215 in 1985-86
MOST POINTS, ONE SEASON, INCLUDING PLAYOFFS: 255 in 1984-85 (208 regular season, 47 playoffs)

OVERTIME SCORING:
*MOST OVERTIME ASSISTS: 15

SCORING BY A CENTER:
MOST GOALS BY A CENTER: 894
MOST GOALS BY A CENTER, ONE SEASON: 92 in 1981-82
MOST ASSISTS BY A CENTER: 1,963
MOST ASSISTS BY A CENTER, ONE SEASON: 163 in 1985-86
MOST POINTS BY A CENTER: 2,857
MOST POINTS BY A CENTER, ONE SEASON: 215 in 1985-86

SCORING BY A ROOKIE:
MOST ASSISTS BY A PLAYER, ONE GAME: 7 - vs WSH, Feb. 15, 1980

PER-GAME SCORING AVERAGES:
HIGHEST GOALS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON: 1.18 in 1983-84
HIGHEST ASSISTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE: 1.32
HIGHEST ASSISTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON: 2.04 in 1985-86
HIGHEST POINTS-PER-GAME AVERAGE, ONE SEASON: 2.77 in 1983-84

SCORING PLATEAUS:
MOST 40-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS: 12
MOST CONSECUTIVE 40-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS: 12 (1979-80 to 1990-91)
MOST 50-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS: 9 (TIED)
MOST 60-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS: 5 (TIED)
MOST CONSECUTIVE 60-OR-MORE GOAL SEASONS: 4 (1981-82 to 1984-85)
MOST 100-OR-MORE POINT SEASONS: 15
MOST CONSECUTIVE 100-OR-MORE POINT SEASONS: 13 (1979-80 to 1991-92)
MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES: 50
MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES, ONE SEASON: 10 in 1981-82 and 1983-84
LONGEST CONSECUTIVE ASSIST-SCORING STREAK: 23 games (Feb. 8-Mar. 24, 1991)
LONGEST CONSECUTIVE POINT-SCORING STREAK: 51 games (Oct. 5, 1983 to Jan. 28, 1984)
LONGEST CONSECUTIVE POINT-SCORING STREAK FROM START OF SEASON: 51 games (Oct. 5, 1983 to Jan. 28, 1984)

PLAYOFF GOALS AND ASSISTS:
MOST PLAYOFF GOALS: 122
MOST PLAYOFF ASSISTS: 260
MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF YEAR: 31 in 1988
MOST ASSISTS IN ONE SERIES (OTHER THAN FINAL): 14 in 1985 vs CHI (Conference Finals) (TIED)
MOST ASSISTS IN FINAL SERIES: 10 in 1988 vs BOS
MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF GAME: 6 - vs LA, Apr. 9, 1987
MOST ASSISTS, ONE PLAYOFF PERIOD: 3 - five times (TIED)

PLAYOFF POINTS:
MOST PLAYOFF POINTS: 382
MOST POINTS, ONE PLAYOFF YEAR: 47 in 1985
MOST POINTS IN FINAL SERIES: 13 in 1988 vs BOS
MOST POINTS, ONE PLAYOFF PERIOD: 4 -- at LA, Apr. 12, 1987, 3rd period (TIED)
PLAYOFF SHORTHANDED GOALS:
MOST SHORTHANDED GOALS, ONE PLAYOFF GAME: 2 - vs WPG, Apr. 6, 1983 (TIED)
PLAYOFF GAME WINNING GOALS:
MOST GAME-WINNING GOALS: 24
PLAYOFF THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES:
MOST THREE-OR-MORE GOAL GAMES: 10

NHL ALL-STAR GAME GOALS:
**MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS: 13 (NOW TIED)
MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS, ONE GAME: 4 in 1983 (TIED)
MOST ALL-STAR GAME GOALS, ONE PERIOD: 4 in 1983, 3rd period
NHL ALL-STAR GAME ASSISTS:
*MOST ALL-STAR GAME ASSISTS: 12 (TIED UPON RETIREMENT)
NHL ALL-STAR GAME POINTS:
MOST ALL-STAR GAME POINTS: 25
MOST ALL-STAR GAME POINTS, ONE PERIOD: 4 in 1983, 3rd period (TIED)

* = no longer holds record
** = now shares record

That's 61 NHL records either owned or shared by Mr. Gretzky. He should have another one "Most NHL Records by a Single Player"

If that ain't DOMINATION I don't know what is.

Wayne's records

Just curious. Who is second in the above categories and how many do they have in each category? That would provide a comparison of Wayne to his competitors. :)

Just curious. Who is second in the above categories and how many do they have in each category? That would provide a comparison of Wayne to his competitors. :)
Don, you're cruel.

55/Rad

I agree with the different time/technologies aspect
But I feel that without question, it has to be Merckx. The palmares of Eddy Merckx are unmatched by anyone in the sport of cycling.
Eddie did what lance did, and a whole lot more.
Sure lance is about to win his 6th, but honesty there is a lot more to cycling that the TDF.

Eddy Merckx palmares:


1966 Milan - San Remo
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ferdi Bracke


1967 World Pro Road Race
Milan - San Remo
Flèche Wallone
Ghent - Wevelgem
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ferdi Bracke

2 stages, Giro d'Italia
Critérium des As

1968 Giro d'Italia
KoM, Giro d'Italia
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Tour of Catalonia
Tour of Romandy
Paris - Roubaix
Tre Valli Varesine

1969 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
5 stages, Tour de France
Paris - Luxembourg
Milan - San Remo
Tour of Flanders
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Paris - Nice
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1970 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
8 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
Paris - Nice
Tour of Belgium
Paris - Roubaix
Flèche Wallone
Ghent - Wevelgem
Critérium des As
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1971 Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
4 stages, Tour de France
World Pro Road Race
Milan - San Remo
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Tour of Lombardy
Frankfurt Grand Prix
Omloop Het Volk
Paris - Nice
Dauphiné - Libéré
GP du Midi Libre
Tour of Belgium
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1972 Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
6 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Milan - San Remo
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Tour of Lombardy
Flèche Wallone
Giro dell'Emilia
Giro del Piemonte
GP de l'Escaut
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Roger Swerts

Hour Record - 49.431km
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1973 Giro d'Italia
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia
6 stages, Giro d'Italia
Vuelta a España
Points Competition, Vuelta a España
6 stages, Vuelta a España
Paris - Roubaix
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Grand Prix des Nations
Amstel Gold Race
Ghent - Wevelgem
Omloop Het Volk
Paris - Brussels
GP Fourmies
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1974 Tour de France
8 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
2 stages, Giro d'Italia
World Pro Road Race
Tour of Switzerland
Points competition, Tour of Switzerland
KoM, Tour of Switzerland
3 stages, Tour of Switzerland
Critérium des As
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1975 Milan - San Remo
Tour of Flanders
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Amstel Gold Race
Catalan Week
2 stages, Tour de France
1 stage, Tour of Switzerland
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1976 Milan - San Remo
Catalan Week

1977 1 stage, Tour of Switzerland

No one, not even Lance can touch that.

It's so hard to compare athletes/teams of different eras. How would Merckx do with a carbon fiber TT bike? How would Unitas do with Lawrence Taylor coming after him? Because of that, I usually make comparisons to how dominating an athlete/team is over their current competition. So yeah, I'd place Merckx higher up because of all the other races he won. But then when you watch something like the time trial today ...

Just curious. Who is second in the above categories and how many do they have in each category? That would provide a comparison of Wayne to his competitors. :)

That's a real tough order, because in most of these listings that I have found, only the record is listed, but I'll do my best:

All Time Assists:

Wayne Gretzky--1963

Ron Francis--1247

Mark Messier--1193

Ray Bourque--1169

All Time Goals:

Wayne Gretzky--894

Gordie Howe--801

Brett Hull--741

Marcel Dionne--731

All Time Points:

Wayne Gretzky--2857

Mark Messier--1887

Gordie Howe--1850

Ron Francis--1795

Art Ross Trophies: Won the scoring title ten times in his career. 1980-81 (164 Pts), 1981-82 (212 Pts), 1982-83 (196 Pts), 1983-84 (205 Pts), 1984-85 (208 Pts), 1985-86 (215 Pts), 1986-87 (183 Pts), 1989-90 (142 Pts), 1990-91 (163), 1993-94 (130 Pts).

Hart Trophies: He won the MVP for the regular season nine times. (1979-80), (1980-81), (1981-82), (1982-83), (1983-84), (1984-85), (1985-86), (1986-87), (1988-89).

Stanley Cups: He won this trophy four times as a member of the Edmonton Oilers in (1983-84), (1984-85), (1986-87), (1987-88).

Conn Smythe: He won this trophy twice as the MVP in the playoffs in (1984-85) and (1987-88).

First All-Star Team: He was selected 8 times at center.

Second All-Star Team: He was selected 7 times at center.

500th Goal: It took him 575 games to score his 500th goal.

1000th Point: It took him 424 games to get his 1000th point.

NHL Career: 20 seasons (1979-1999)

Interesting. I have not followed hockey for a variety of reasons, but going on just these stats, I would have to think that Gretzky dominated his sport in much the same way Merckx dominated his.

One impression I have picked up about Gretzky in the media is that he is one heck of a nice guy too.

I wish you guys hadn't introduced comparisons with baseball and hockey. The thread becomes a local argument for statisticians. Any more of this stuff and I shall introduce my Pele and Bradman rants...although Bradman has the world-wide significance of a Gretzky or a Ruth (i.e., not much. In how many countries is Baseball or Ice Hockey played?)

Let's straighten out a few things here. Eddy Merckx didn't hit for average and he definitely didn't waste his time on assists. Cycling is a different kind of team sport. Lance Armstrong is cut from similar cloth but is the guy who only plays in the post season....Mr July, if you like. Merckx raced all the year round, to maintain fitness but once embarked on a race, winning was the outcome, hence his six-day career. (Was Gretzky any good at field hockey? Did Ruth do softball?)

This stuff about comparisons being odious, is way off-beam. They're only inappropriate when it's patronisingly assumed that the stars of the past wouldn't learn to deal with modern tactics, rules, equipment and fitness. Babe Ruth would hit balls into McCovey Cove, Pele would be the darling of Mlilan or Madrid, Bradman would be a scoring machine..........

Fausto Coppi would still have brittle bones and get injured too easily- but he might not have to waste a lot of his best years in a prisoner of war camp and have to eat wartime rations thereafter. He would also not be stuck in the national team format and thus able to compete against other Italian Campionissimi rather than sacrificing his chances for them.......

Lemond would hope not to get shot (tip: hunting with guns increases the risk), think twice about joining the team of an existing local hero and champion, and hope for an era featuring 'Stars' like Beloki, or Simoni, or Virenque, rather than the all-time big-hitters he regularly encountered.

Hinault decided when he was going to retire before he reached 30, as was customary. I think he rode his last race on his 32nd birthday, near his hometown- and of course they let him win. Bet he wishes science had encouraged him to keep going, to train smarter, to race less and replenish more. His legacy remains as extensive as his palmares, however- maybe the second most celebrated cyclist in history. At different points in his career, he beat a "who's who" of great riders, in all terrains. These include Moser, Saronni, Fignon, Kelly, Maertens, Zoetemelk, Roche, Raas, Lemond, Kuiper, Herrera, amongst others. There are more all-time greats from this era than any other. That's what I call strength of schedule: enough with the "Greg was robbed" nonsense. He got what he earned and everything had to be earned back then. He should be proud, not bitter.

Forgive me for laying off Merckx and Armstrong but the questioner already answered his own question. Eddy was and is the Daddy of Pro Cycling. Lance may one day enter the top five all-time but he has some work to do. He knows this, refreshingly enough, - it's his more extreme fans who need the history and math lessons.

Anyone want to debate whether Merckx could beat Secretariat? Would Ali be any good on the Pave? How's Armstrong's short game on links courses?

Not forgetting the incomparable Beryl Burton

25 years British Best All-Rounder, national record holder at all distances from track pursuit to 12 hours; set national (in effect, world) 12-hour record which was better than the men's (set in same race), world road, TT and track champion, etc.

And with no financial support.

Can't really compare her achievements with the others but was truly supreme.

Anyone want to debate whether Merckx could beat Secretariat?

What kind of bike would Secretariat be riding? A high tech modern bike or an old school steel frame bike? I'll place my bets when we work out the details. ;)

What will you guys say if lance wins 7 or 8 TDF's and 2 or 3 other grand tours? You can't compare athletes from this era to athletes of any other era.

Lance is the greatest TdF rider ever, but probably not as strong as Merckx was. A long stage race requires a great team, and Lance and Johan Bruyneel have built and maintained one of the best teams ever. Part of the reason for that is that team members besides Lance get opportunities to win, and Lance works for them in other races. It's a team approach that builds and maintains morale, and the other eight riders are about ready to die for him during the Tour. A long stage race also requires the right strategy; Lance probably wouldn't have won last year if he didn't plan and prepare as meticulously as he does. He knows which stages he can win and where he can gain time, and he uses his team to save his energy on the flat stages and to break the competition in the climbs. He also obsesses over equipment in a way that no other rider does. One of his TT bikes has 1970's Shimano aero brakes because they are slightly more aero than current brakes. Trek R&D works overtime to give Lance that tiny edge. His TT helmet was developed in a wind tunnel, and Lance owns the rights to it. He trains more than anyone. Bobby Knight, winner (and *******) that he is, once said something pretty smart: the will to win, he said, isn't that important because everybody wants to win. The will to prepare is what matters. Lance prepares like nobody else.

However, including his five stage wins in this year's tour, Lance has 80 pro victories. Merckx had 476. So if the question is who has the best overall pro record, Eddy does. (He also won the Tour, the Giro, and the World Championship road race in the same year. I think Stephen Roche might be the only other to accomplish that, which he did in 1987, but there may have been another. If the question is which one would win if they could race the Tour together in prime shape, Lance might have the edge because of his approach to the team and to equipment. He shamed Ullrich this year, and beat the climbers at their own game. Basso stayed with him in the mountains, but couldn't come close to matching him in the TTs. I think he can win seven or eight.

Who's the greatest man in the history of pro cycling? Lance. He beat cancer, and trained his way back to the top of one of the toughest sports in the world. He's helping others beat cancer. He's gotten America to think about cycling again, and about cancer. And I wear my yellow wristband every day.

Craig

Speaking of dominant athletes, Aleksandr Karelin was the most dominant athlete of any sport ever. He is the best Greco-Roman wrestler in history. For thirteen years straight he was not scored upon by anyone - not one single point. Thirteen European championships, nine World Championships, 3 Olympic Gold Medals (1 Silver, where he lost the final 0-1), and was the only superheavyweight to regularly perform reverse bodylifts on his opponents. He was so feared that a lot of people would just give in rather than be slammed on their head by him.

Aleksandr Karelin, 290 lbs:

Even if Lance wins his sixth TdF, and I think he will. I hope he does. That will not make him the greatest cyclist of all time. Lance will most likely agree.

Eddy Merckx won five, was on his way to a sixth, but lost most likely due to a disturbed fan. He won his tours while riding a full race schedule, and did not specielize. Some may argue for Coppi, Auncateil (sp?),
Indurain ... forget Hinault, his attitude sucks, but for my money ... Merckx is the greatest cyclist of all time.

Oh yea, Go Lance ...

Merckx might be best all time but LA is best in the TDF. Dont forget the fan last year that caught his bar and he went down but got right back up. Cant go on coulda or shoulda.

Lance is the best at winning the TDF. Merckx is the most dominate TDF rider ever though. All three jerseys in '69 and winner of polka-dot and yellow jerseys on two occasions. I won't bore y'all with stats on how many stage wins or days in yellow he had.

okay, so that Aleksandr Karelin post with the pic is just awesome - like in the biblical sense of the word - even though historically the "heavyweight" class in weight sports like wrestling and boxing is rarely the most challenging division.

a friend of mine was telling me about that guy when this thread was younger and i was telling him about the debate.

that quote from devil: "For thirteen years straight he was not scored upon by anyone - not one single point" that is just unparalleled. like nobody even got a 1pt escape in 13 years!!

more pix:
http://www.karelin.ru/eng/?foto-wrestling

EM said the greatest differance between himself and LA was that he rode a bike to make a living, and Lance rides to win the TDF.

I agree with the different time/technologies aspect
But I feel that without question, it has to be Merckx. The palmares of Eddy Merckx are unmatched by anyone in the sport of cycling.
Eddie did what lance did, and a whole lot more.
Sure lance is about to win his 6th, but honesty there is a lot more to cycling that the TDF.

Eddy Merckx palmares:


1966 Milan - San Remo
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ferdi Bracke


1967 World Pro Road Race
Milan - San Remo
Flèche Wallone
Ghent - Wevelgem
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ferdi Bracke

2 stages, Giro d'Italia
Critérium des As

1968 Giro d'Italia
KoM, Giro d'Italia
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Tour of Catalonia
Tour of Romandy
Paris - Roubaix
Tre Valli Varesine

1969 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
5 stages, Tour de France
Paris - Luxembourg
Milan - San Remo
Tour of Flanders
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Paris - Nice
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1970 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
8 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
Paris - Nice
Tour of Belgium
Paris - Roubaix
Flèche Wallone
Ghent - Wevelgem
Critérium des As
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1971 Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
4 stages, Tour de France
World Pro Road Race
Milan - San Remo
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Tour of Lombardy
Frankfurt Grand Prix
Omloop Het Volk
Paris - Nice
Dauphiné - Libéré
GP du Midi Libre
Tour of Belgium
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1972 Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
6 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Milan - San Remo
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Tour of Lombardy
Flèche Wallone
Giro dell'Emilia
Giro del Piemonte
GP de l'Escaut
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Roger Swerts

Hour Record - 49.431km
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1973 Giro d'Italia
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia
6 stages, Giro d'Italia
Vuelta a España
Points Competition, Vuelta a España
6 stages, Vuelta a España
Paris - Roubaix
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Grand Prix des Nations
Amstel Gold Race
Ghent - Wevelgem
Omloop Het Volk
Paris - Brussels
GP Fourmies
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1974 Tour de France
8 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
2 stages, Giro d'Italia
World Pro Road Race
Tour of Switzerland
Points competition, Tour of Switzerland
KoM, Tour of Switzerland
3 stages, Tour of Switzerland
Critérium des As
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1975 Milan - San Remo
Tour of Flanders
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Amstel Gold Race
Catalan Week
2 stages, Tour de France
1 stage, Tour of Switzerland
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1976 Milan - San Remo
Catalan Week

1977 1 stage, Tour of Switzerland

No one, not even Lance can touch that.

WOW!!! I knew Merckx had a lot of wins but to see them all laid out like that one after the other is truly unbelievable.

Eddy Merckx won five, was on his way to a sixth, but lost most likely due to a disturbed fan. He won his tours while riding a full race schedule, and did not specielize.

No need to specialize when nowone else does and there is far less competition to worry about.
He would have won 4 but a rider crashed into Ocana and injured him one year (1971?).

Comparing athletes of different eras is extremely difficult. Guys in the early years of baseball hit fewer homers because the ball was spongier. They weren't wound as tightly as they are today. That changed in the early 1920s. The forward pass was taboo in football until the late 40s and early 50s. Cycling has changed as well. Ultralight carbon fiber bikes for example. Athletes are changing, and getting better. 20 years ago no high school football player would have dreamed of running a 4.2 second 40 meter dash. A few years ago we had a guy in our conference named Jim Leonhard. He did from his sophmore through senior seasons. It's like comparing Dan Marino's numbers in a passer friendly, chuck it down the field system with no good running back. To Unitas who called his own plays, had a good full back in Ameche and an elusive back in Lenny Moore. You have to compare apples to apples not apples to oranges.

Merckx is the greatest ever. It's tough to find a cycling journalist who won't say so. However, if you insist on seperating then from now, this is how it works out:

Greatest then: Merckx
Greatest modern era: Indurain

I agree with the different time/technologies aspect
But I feel that without question, it has to be Merckx. The palmares of Eddy Merckx are unmatched by anyone in the sport of cycling.
Eddie did what lance did, and a whole lot more.
Sure lance is about to win his 6th, but honesty there is a lot more to cycling that the TDF.

Eddy Merckx palmares:


1966 Milan - San Remo
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ferdi Bracke


1967 World Pro Road Race
Milan - San Remo
Flèche Wallone
Ghent - Wevelgem
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Ferdi Bracke

2 stages, Giro d'Italia
Critérium des As

1968 Giro d'Italia
KoM, Giro d'Italia
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Tour of Catalonia
Tour of Romandy
Paris - Roubaix
Tre Valli Varesine

1969 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
5 stages, Tour de France
Paris - Luxembourg
Milan - San Remo
Tour of Flanders
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Paris - Nice
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1970 Tour de France
KoM, Tour de France
8 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
3 stages, Giro d'Italia
Paris - Nice
Tour of Belgium
Paris - Roubaix
Flèche Wallone
Ghent - Wevelgem
Critérium des As
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1971 Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
4 stages, Tour de France
World Pro Road Race
Milan - San Remo
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Tour of Lombardy
Frankfurt Grand Prix
Omloop Het Volk
Paris - Nice
Dauphiné - Libéré
GP du Midi Libre
Tour of Belgium
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1972 Tour de France
Points Competition, Tour de France
6 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
4 stages, Giro d'Italia
Milan - San Remo
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Tour of Lombardy
Flèche Wallone
Giro dell'Emilia
Giro del Piemonte
GP de l'Escaut
Trofeo Angelo Baracchi, with Roger Swerts

Hour Record - 49.431km
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1973 Giro d'Italia
Points Competition, Giro d'Italia
6 stages, Giro d'Italia
Vuelta a España
Points Competition, Vuelta a España
6 stages, Vuelta a España
Paris - Roubaix
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Grand Prix des Nations
Amstel Gold Race
Ghent - Wevelgem
Omloop Het Volk
Paris - Brussels
GP Fourmies
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1974 Tour de France
8 stages, Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
2 stages, Giro d'Italia
World Pro Road Race
Tour of Switzerland
Points competition, Tour of Switzerland
KoM, Tour of Switzerland
3 stages, Tour of Switzerland
Critérium des As
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1975 Milan - San Remo
Tour of Flanders
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Amstel Gold Race
Catalan Week
2 stages, Tour de France
1 stage, Tour of Switzerland
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy

1976 Milan - San Remo
Catalan Week

1977 1 stage, Tour of Switzerland

No one, not even Lance can touch that.

Impressive list...as a professional, Merckx won one third of all the races he entered. When I first heard that, it really cemented in me the idea that he is the best bicycle racer of all time!

Eddy Merckx had 525 wins in 1800 races....I'm starting to wheeze just thinkin' about that!

I like to list Eddy's wins simply because it's so amazing and really shows the enormity of his career.

Tour de France - 5 times
Giro d' Italia - 5 times
World Road Champion - 3 times
Paris Roubaix - 3 times
Milan San Remo - 7 times!
Tour of Flanders - 2 times
LBL - 5 times
Tour of Lombardy - 2 times
Ghent-Wevelgem - 3 times
Fleche Wallone - 3 times
Amstel Gold - 2 times
Het Volk - 2 times
TDF Green Jersey - 6 times

Brent........

<No need to specialize when nowone else does and there is far less competition to worry about.>

Not able to specialize. Needed the money (not a millionaire), obligated by sponsorship arrangements, as they were, back in the day. Some others did specialize, e.g., on certain kinds of race, or at times of the year or mainly in specific countries. Less competition? You're joking, right?

<He would have won 4 but a rider crashed into Ocana and injured him one year (1971?).>

Ocana fell off, in driving rain, on an alpine descent. Another rider slid off, on the same corner and hit Luis, causing his retirement from the race. It happens.

Ullrich was sick early in this year's Tour. Think it made a difference? Ever ride a stage race- or even a long tour (vacation)?

Merckx finished 2nd once, having eaten no solid food for 10 days, due to a broken cheek bone (the kidney punch/disturbed fan thing is overplayed these days).

The year Riis beat Indurain was exceptionally cold and wet. Miguel had next to no body fat. Bjarne attacked on a snow-shortened stage, Mig had no power in the legs........

Me, I'd have worn that extra jersey and knee warmers;-)

You..... are omitting historical context from the opinion-forming process.

Some facts about Merckx that have been forgotten in this thread or have not been mentioned correctly.

1. Merckx was in a car crash in 1969 which nearly cost him his life. He had to race with unbearble pain ever since. On top of that, Merckx suffered from mononucleosis all of his life. This blows away the cancer argument often used to state that Lance is the greatest. Merckx had to overcome at least the same difficulties as Lance did.

2. Ocana didn't simply fall because he was knocked over by another cyclist. The true story was that Ocana had an 8-minute lead after Merckx's dip on the previous day. All had agreed that Ocana should be that year's TdF winner and the peloton was "instructed" to make it a quiet race. But Merckx didn't want to accept defeat (as always) and went downhill like a rocket (he was well known for his lightning descent and a motorcycle once even crashed when trying to follow him, causing the death of two people). Ocana, furious about the "agreement" being broken tried to go into pursuit but simply took too many risks. That's why he was knocked over.

Lance will indeed probably make top 5, but he will never even come close to Eddy. And to those who say that Lance was better in the TdF: even if he wins his 7th, how many days will he have worn the yellow jersey? And how many days has Eddy worn it?

Cheers,

Peter

cool, a newbie with his head screwed on straight.....

Welcome to BF.

Eddy Merckx had 525 wins in 1800 races....I'm starting to wheeze just thinkin' about that!

Of course, a true Lance fan would say "Jeez...that Merckx guy LOST over 1200 races" (The ones where he was often second or third).

Lance will indeed probably make top 5, but he will never even come close to Eddy. And to those who say that Lance was better in the TdF: even if he wins his 7th, how many days will he have worn the yellow jersey? And how many days has Eddy worn it?
Don't think you can actually compare # of days ... the TdF is raced differently; I don't think Lance's goal is wear Yellow as much as possible. Highly unlikely we will ever see someone dominate speed skating like Eric Heiden ... also unlikely we will ever see someone dominate cycling like Eddy.

Technology, training regiments, teams ... very tough to compare one era to another. Jack and Arnie have their place, as will Tiger and Annika (God, is this woman on a tear!). Eddy has his; Lance will have his too. Eddy's just above everybody else.

"In 1585 races as a pro, Merckx won 445 - almost one out of three. In 1969, in fact, he won exactly 33.3 percent of the races he entered. In 1970, he won almost 38 percent. In 1971, 45 percent: 54 victories in 120 races. That's almost half.

How can you begin to put this massive record in perspective?"

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8224.0.html

Eddy Merckx has it all over Lance Armstrong.

If Bonds breaks Aaron's record, does that make him the greater ballplayer? Was Aaron considered "greater" than Ruth?

It's the debate of the ages. Different eras, different technologies and different priorities.

I think it's fair to include both their names in any discussion of who was the greatest.

55/Rad

Yes I know bond cant break my record!

Oh maaaan. This is like "Schumacher is better than Fangio because he won seven world championships to Fangio's five."

BS!!! Times, equipment, and rules change. Schumacher is good with the video games they call F1 cars today. But there is no way that he can be compared with Fangio, given that drivers in that era actually had to drive the cars. And now that more requirements are being shifted back to the drivers from the cars, look what has happened.

These cyclists are two extremely gifted and talented athletes from different ages. Why do we always have to try to make meaningless comparisons? Sorry - make that you - I already know it is a question with no answer.