Foo - Stupid Fatal Crash

Just watched this on FOX News, no linky sorry...

There was a guy calling 911 saying that he was driving and his accelerator got stuck, he could not slow down or stop. The guy crashed during the call, doing 120 (he said)... few people died.

And here I'm thinking, if it happens to you, what would you do?

1) Call 911 for help while doing 120mph
2) Put the car on "neutral"
3) Turn off the engine
4) options 2 and 3
5) Be stupid and die

...My condolences to the families of the involved tho...

Fox news, the news station that blows everything out of proportion.

Fox news, the news station that blows everything out of proportion.

:thumb:

Or simply makes news up to further thier agenda.

4.

I don't get the 2 previous posts as they have squat to do with the op. Must be a knee jerk reaction.

Take car out of gear. Pull e-brake.

How well would the emergency brake work at 120mph? I'd probably gear down to start, then shift to neutral and brake.

I've had one of the bolts that hold the air filter to the carburetor come out and wedge open the throttle plate full open - basically the same as having a stuck accelerator pedal. No big deal: put car in neutral and kill ignition (quick before engine overrevs and damages itself) and coast/brake to the side of the road.

Take car out of gear. Pull e-brake.

and spin steering wheel. Congratulations, you have just completed a bootleg turn. But probably not a real good idea at 120 mph.

i'd of called chuck norris and had him roundhouse kick the car into submission.:thumb:

How well would the emergency brake work at 120mph? I'd probably gear down to start, then shift to neutral and brake.

some cars are smart enough to not allow you to shift into a gear other than neutral that would destroy the clutch.

Take car out of gear. Pull e-brake.
e-brake doesn't work too well at speeds over 40mph.


and spin steering wheel. Congratulations, you have just completed a bootleg turn. But probably not a real good idea at 120 mph.

I wonder if the guy was going 120mph before the pedal got stuck or couldn't figure out how to slow the car down before hitting 120mph and crashing.

I'd probably use the guard rail if the car was going faster than 60mph and still accelerating out of control if neutral and brakes didn't work.

4.

I don't get the 2 previous posts as they have squat to do with the op. Must be a knee jerk reaction.

if your news was good, they'd include: details of what happened instead of just the end results and a reminder of how to avoid and escape such a predicament before it is too late.

in a situation like that you have so many options that are safer than doing 120 until you crash. given he was probably nervous he could have thrown the shifter (if it was an automatic) into any other position and been fine. Park or reverse and the car would stall, nuetral and it would coast down (maybe damaging the engine but thats better than death right?), and any of the lower gears like 1 or 2 would drop speed down to atleast 50. Obvious solution is to just shut the car off. Also I would assume if you stomped on the brakes you could slow down a little too.

actually something similar happened to my cousin (i think the brakes went out, not a stuck accelerator) so he put it in neutral and hit bushes, benches, small trees and eventually a big tree (he was approaching a major intersection) and came to a (somewhat) safe stop. way better than taking out other people.

some cars are smart enough to not allow you to shift into a gear other than neutral that would destroy the clutch.

e-brake doesn't work too well at speeds over 40mph.



I wonder if the guy was going 120mph before the pedal got stuck or couldn't figure out how to slow the car down before hitting 120mph and crashing.

I'd probably use the guard rail if the car was going faster than 60mph and still accelerating out of control if neutral and brakes didn't work.

If its still accelerating in neutral, your driving Christine, and screwed no matter what.

I thought the word "agenda" was limited to P&R... lol

What if you were in a loaner car that you were not familiar with, the accelerator pedal got stuck underneath a floor mat and the on/off button must be held down for three seconds to shut off the car?

Huh??? There are absolutely NO cars on the road with engines more powerful than the brakes. Most modern cars can brake at around 1G on street tyres. I doubt many of them can accelerate to 200mph in a 1/4-mile. Especially when you're in a tall enough gear to go 120mph, the brakes can easily overwhelm the puny amount of torque that makes it to the ground.

Just watched this on FOX News, no linky sorry...

There was a guy calling 911 saying that he was driving and his accelerator got stuck, he could not slow down or stop. The guy crashed during the call, doing 120 (he said)... few people died.

And here I'm thinking, if it happens to you, what would you do?

1) Call 911 for help while doing 120mph
2) Put the car on "neutral"
3) Turn off the engine
4) options 2 and 3
5) Be stupid and die

...My condolences to the families of the involved tho...
6) Apply the brakes until you stall the engine.
There isn't a car on the road with an engine that can overcome the brakes.
(Edited to add: I see Danno beat me on this point.)

Using the ebrake is dumb because you are only braking 2 out of 4 wheels,
and the rear brakes are almost always less powerful than the front.

That guy is too stupid to have a driver's license.

OK, now I've found the linky:

From WBFF FOX 45 web site.

http://www.foxbaltimore.com/ (http://www.foxbaltimore.com/template/inews_wire/wires.national/34c0f308-www.foxbaltimore.com.shtml)


"SANTEE, Calif. (AP) -- Four people aboard a runaway car told each other to hold on and pray moments before their 911 call ended in screams and a fiery crash.

The California Highway Patrol released a recording of the call Thursday, detailing the disturbing last seconds of the Aug. 28 crash in which a passenger complained the accelerator was stuck.

Witnesses say a weaving Lexus topped speeds of 120 mph before launching off an embankment and bursting into flames in Santee, in Dan Diego County.

In the 50-second recording, passenger Chris Lastrella tells the dispatcher, "We're in trouble. There's no brake."

Moments before the crash, the passengers tell each other to "hold on" and "pray."

The victims included CHP Officer Mark Saylor, his wife Cleofe, their 13-year-old daughter Mahala and Lastrella."

I haven't found a link to the audio yet...

6) Apply the brakes until you stall the engine.
There isn't a car on the road with an engine that can overcome the brakes.
(Edited to add: I see Danno beat me on this point.)

Using the ebrake is dumb because you are only braking 2 out of 4 wheels,
and the rear brakes are almost always less powerful than the front.

That guy is too stupid to have a driver's license.The passenger told the 911 operator that there were no brakes.

The driver was a CHP officer.

That's sad.

I haven't found a link to the audio yet...
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/sep/10/bn10-911call-fatal-crash/?metro&zIndex=163775

Click on the link under Audio.

If its still accelerating in neutral, your driving Christine, and screwed no matter what.
could be a down hill... although I'd like to see a stretch of road where you can hit 120mph just in neutral.


What if you were in a loaner car that you were not familiar with, the accelerator pedal got stuck underneath a floor mat and the on/off button must be held down for three seconds to shut off the car?

still way less time than getting from 60mph to 120mph, unless it's one of those super cars with more than 400hp.


in a situation like that you have so many options that are safer than doing 120 until you crash. given he was probably nervous he could have thrown the shifter (if it was an automatic) into any other position and been fine. Park or reverse and the car would stall, nuetral and it would coast down (maybe damaging the engine but thats better than death right?), and any of the lower gears like 1 or 2 would drop speed down to atleast 50. Obvious solution is to just shut the car off. Also I would assume if you stomped on the brakes you could slow down a little too.

actually something similar happened to my cousin (i think the brakes went out, not a stuck accelerator) so he put it in neutral and hit bushes, benches, small trees and eventually a big tree (he was approaching a major intersection) and came to a (somewhat) safe stop. way better than taking out other people.

the clutch wouldn't engage in reverse, but park and neutral should work.
1-2 will not engage until you're in a range where it would work, the clutch would slip. you can probably get 2 to work at 60mph for an automatic, but 120mph, I doubt.

The passenger told the 911 operator that there were no brakes.

The driver was a CHP officer.

Accelerator stuck *and* no brakes?
Assuming the passenger was correct, it is sounding like deliberate sabotage.
But that still would not prevent putting the car in neutral, or turning off the engine.

the clutch wouldn't engage in reverse, but park and neutral should work.
1-2 will not engage until you're in a range where it would work, the clutch would slip. you can probably get 2 to work at 60mph for an automatic, but 120mph, I doubt.

I have thrown a 95' Ford Explorer into reverse while driving. It just stalled. :lol:

I've stalled the engine with an altima 4sp auto by throwing it in reverse while attempting a J-turn in the snow. I should clarify that it won't engage in reverse with manual.


no brakes and stuck accelerator smells fishy.
if it was a manual, and the clutch cable was cut, it's still possible to pop it into neutral by forcing it.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/sep/10/bn10-911call-fatal-crash/?metro&zIndex=163775

Click on the link under Audio.

The article is enlightening:


"The car was a loaner from Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon.

Hill did not know if Saylor tried to shift the vehicle into neutral or turn it off – actions safety experts say may have been impossible if the car was experiencing a malfunction. The shut-off button on the car must be held for three seconds to turn the car off, experts said. "

The article is enlightening:


"The car was a loaner from Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon.

Hill did not know if Saylor tried to shift the vehicle into neutral or turn it off – actions safety experts say may have been impossible if the car was experiencing a malfunction. The shut-off button on the car must be held for three seconds to turn the car off, experts said. "

I call BS on the so called "experts". According to that explanation, we now have a stuck accelerator, brakes not working, stick not shifting and engine shutoff button malfunction at the same time? and the 3 seconds thing... erhm... the call was 50 seconds long.

why would lexus have a car have a button that has to be held for 3 seconds to turn off the car?

I call BS on the so called "experts". According to that explanation, we now have a stuck accelerator, brakes not working, stick not shifting and engine shutoff button malfunction at the same time? and the 3 seconds thing... erhm... the call was 50 seconds long.
Read the article carefully. There are several different sources saying what might have caused the crash, nothing more.

The dealer, the owner of the vehicle, does not comment.

SDSO says "A preliminary investigation into its cause has indicated the accelerator may have become entrapped by a rubber floor mat.

The "safety experts" say the shut-off button on the car must be held for three seconds to turn the car off.

The passenger says there were no brakes.

This was a big huge story in the papers and TV news here. I have never heard anyone say that all or any of the items you listed actually caused the crash. I have heard that they may have caused the crash but most people are waiting for the SO or NHSTA investigations to be completed.

I had a Nissan Pathfinder throttle stick wide open on the downhill side of the mountain (Organ Mountains?) going into Las Cruces, New Mexico. My first instinct was to hit the brake. Not much going on there after the brakes heated up. Second was to press the clutch but I didn't want the motor to self destruct when I saw the tach peg itself. Finally, I turned the key off, but didn't lock it, and then coasted to a stop on the side of the road. Turns out a cable snagged something and stuck the throttle full open. Very exciting day.

why would lexus have a car have a button that has to be held for 3 seconds to turn off the car?

So you don't kill the car with an accidental bump?


Fox news, the news station that blows everything out of proportion.


Or simply makes news up to further thier agenda.

As opposed to CNN which is strictly the facts... no embellishment or plain making stuff up to suit their agenda, of course? :roflmao2:

very puzzling incident here, I'd like to see the outcome of the investigation.

So you don't kill the car with an accidental bump?


Nah! you don't need 3 whole seconds to do that. A lot less would do. If that's the design, then it's a stupid design.

I wonder if the big 3 have the so called "experts" on their payroll... helluva way to make the competition look bad.

Don't use the phone and drive eh? Read the car manual people.

Maybe everything is possible. But I don't believe there was no better way to stop the car than to crash into people.

Don't use the phone and drive eh? Read the car manual people.

Maybe everything is possible. But I don't believe there was no better way to stop the car than to crash into people.
The person on the phone was in the back seat as a passenger - not much else they could do under the circumstances. I do think that either moving the transmission into neutral or holding the 'Off' button would presumably have saved them. But I could see how the 3-second delay could easily lead to panic and confusion for someone not familiar with the car.

There is some speculation that the floor mats slid forward (http://www.10news.com/news/20831532/detail.html) and trapped the gas pedal.

I'm still at a loss to understand why even a passenger would call for help on the phone when anyone in such a position must know that the car won't stop until someone in the car does something.

"That guy is too stupid to have a driver's license."

Someone finally posted the problem

I like that my floormats have a latch screwed into the floor which holds them in place. The push-button start doesnt seem like a good idea anymore.

"That guy is too stupid to have a driver's license."

Someone finally posted the problem

+1. :rolleyes:

Reminds me of an episode of the Shat's Rescue 911 I'd seen many years ago. This one ended much better. She couldn't just turn the car off...not so good for VW Jetta sales :rolleyes:
Episode 601 Runaway car (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1aOC1v83uk&NR=1)

Most Lexus I've seen have clips that hold the floormats in place. I would think that one just coming out of the dealer lot would all the pieces in place.

Depending upon the model, that car may also have electronic throttle control, no mechanical cable, just electronic servo motors that control the throttle. The pedal on the floor is then just an acceleration/deceleration request. Nice thing about that is you can program in different throttle-valve responses for the same input. A baseline response would be for flat conditions. So 25% step on the pedal may result in 30% throttle-valve opening. If you're aimed downhill, that same pedal push may only open the throttle 20%. If you're aimed uphill, the car will open the throttle 40%. The idea is to make the car more consistent in its behavior to your controls.

Brakes go through an ABS controller, which may also have had an electronic failure. But they are still mechanically linked to the pedal. So unless all the bleed-valves were opened on the calipers and all the brake-fluid was pumped out, the brakes should still work. There's individual master cylinders per wheel, so you can loose all the fluid from three wheels and the 4th would still work.

Given all the easy solutions to stop the car already presented in previous posts, combined with the training and experience in driving that a CHP officer would have, I bet this was a suicide. They have one of the highest rates of suicide of any profession. Way, way more police officers die through suicide than from on-the-job risks.

Given all the easy solutions to stop the car already presented in previous posts, combined with the training and experience in driving that a CHP officer would have, I bet this was a suicide. They have one of the highest rates of suicide of any profession. Way, way more police officers die through suicide than from on-the-job risks.Sabotage and suicide are the only situations that make any sense. No matter how much of the car's stupid gee-whiz gimmicky **** fails, there's still some way to bring the car to a safe-ish stop, CHP officer at the helm or not.

Though if he decided to kill himself and take his family with him... well, there are no words I'm willing to share.

In view of the fact the driver was unfamiliar with the car, and the car may have had unusual controls,
I think there is a possibility of the driver going into a panic.

I'm recalling a few exasperating instances I've had in the past with finding light and/or wiper switches
in an unfamiliar car.

http://www.foxbaltimore.com/ (http://www.foxbaltimore.com/template/inews_wire/wires.national/34c0f308-www.foxbaltimore.com.shtml)[/B]


"Lexus...
In the 50-second recording, passenger Chris Lastrella tells the dispatcher, "We're in trouble. There's no brake."

Moments before the crash, the passengers tell each other to "hold on" and "pray."

The victims included CHP Officer Mark Saylor, his wife Cleofe, their 13-year-old daughter Mahala and Lastrella."
...

I find it surprising that a CHP Officer would not know to turn the ignition off and that the best they could come up with in an emergency lasting probably over a minute was a 911 call and 'hold on and pray' Boggling.

If you turn off the engine, you kill your power brakes, and you may lock your steering wheel.

Just put on the brakes, hard...they'll defeat anything the engine is capable of.

Years ago, when there was a supposed rash of "runaway cars" (Audis, I think), one of the car magazines did a test: They tested stopping distance with the throttle floored...at worst the stopping distance was about 10% greater than normal.

Yep. Sure, you can overheat the pads and $(@* yourself.

However, in this situation, there ain't an engine or computer or anything else that's going to prevent the car from stopping. These things are always user error. Those Audi incidents and tests were a nice example.

Yep. Sure, you can overheat the pads and $(@* yourself.

However, in this situation, there ain't an engine or computer or anything else that's going to prevent the car from stopping. These things are always user error. Those Audi incidents and tests were a nice example.As I recall, the conclusion all those tests determined was that the drivers were stomping on the gas-pedal instead of the brakes when the Audis started to creep forward from too fast of cold-idle speed. Many people said, "the car actually sped up instead of stopping when I stepped on the brake". Audi was partially at fault for placing the gas and brake pedals a little too close together.

But yeah, brakes will overwhelm the engine of any car. What are the chances of both the e-throttle and brakes going out at the same time?

But yeah, brakes will overwhelm the engine of any car.

They certainly will in the short-term. I.e. stomp on both the throttle and the brakes at the same time and the car won't move.

But it may well be different if you start with the car already moving at high speed. Brakes start to fade as they heat up from extended use and if the engine is at full throttle and keeps pouring more energy in then that brake fade could become quite severe. Say the driver steps on the throttle to pass someone and gets up to 80 mph and then the throttle sticks wide open (whether from a floor mat, electronic failure, mech. malfunction, or whatever). By the time the driver responds by hitting the brakes the car may already be close to 100 mph and still accelerating. That's a lot of energy that the brakes are going to need to dissipate and the engine is still dumping in a couple hundred HP. I could see the brakes overheating to the point where they are no longer able to slow the car.

The brake fade problem was much more serious with the old drum brakes. I vividly remember the time that I found out experimentally that the brakes in our old Chevelle could make one hard stop from 75 mph, but they could *not* make two such stops in quick succession. But even with the superior disk brakes there is still fade from overheating and it may have been a substantial factor in this crash.

Most cars sold in the USA have crappy brakes incapable of stopping a car from 100+ mph without fading before stopping completely. Add in the accelerator pedal being matted and there's little chance for the brakes to stop a run away car.

It is pretty clear this is a murder/suicide, esp since the driver is a CHP officer. All he had to do was slip the car into nuetral, the electronic rev limiter would save the engine....

But it may well be different if you start with the car already moving at high speed. Brakes start to fade as they heat up from extended use and if the engine is at full throttle and keeps pouring more energy in then that brake fade could become quite severe. Say the driver steps on the throttle to pass someone and gets up to 80 mph and then the throttle sticks wide open (whether from a floor mat, electronic failure, mech. malfunction, or whatever). By the time the driver responds by hitting the brakes the car may already be close to 100 mph and still accelerating. That's a lot of energy that the brakes are going to need to dissipate and the engine is still dumping in a couple hundred HP. I could see the brakes overheating to the point where they are no longer able to slow the car.Brake-fade is a function of heat-buildup. This is a balance between how much heat the brakes can shed (BTUs per second) versus how much is being generated from braking. A single stop from 100mph, 150mph, 200mph will NOT cause brake-fade, even with the engine at full-throttle. It takes repeated stops to build up enough heat to cause fade.

This is the usual slow-poke on the downhill problem. If you use your brakes all-out 100%, but only at the last second going into the corners and let up the rest of the time, you never encounter fade. It's only keeping them on partially all the time down the hill that causes the excessive heat buildup and fade.

The Lexus has one of the best braking systems on the planet - 6-piston Brembo Monoblocs:
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/AutoTech/Lexus-IS-brake.jpg
These only come on top-of-the-line Porsches and racing Ferraris. Many people will actually buy these brakes to upgrade their cars for the racetrack: GMP - Brembo Monoblock upgrade kits (http://www.gmpperformance.com/index.cfm?PG=detail&PID=199701). Heck, even the Lexus dual-piston rear disc brakes are better than 99% of the front-brakes on all cars out there.

Try it out yourself. Take a Lexus up to 100mph and slam on the brakes 100%. Repeat one after another and you'll find it'll take AT LEAST 10 all-out stops from 100mph before you notice that the 11th stop takes longer. Even then, it's not that the brakes don't work, they just take longer to stop. And the 11th stop may be 10% longer. The 12th stop from 100mph may be 20% longer. The 15th stop may be 100% longer. But the first stop will work just fine, even with the engine at full-throttle.

There's a ratio of braking-to-power that a lot of people don't understand. It's a magnitude of like over 1000%. Compare how much power it takes to accelerate to 220mph in the 1/4-mile versus how much actual power the Lexus engine makes. That's the difference between the braking deceleration-force you have available versus the engine's acceleration-force. It's simply no contest.