Bicycle Mechanics - Water in the BB

I have a Trek 5200 purchased this summer that I have about 1,200 miles on. Repeated clicking in the BB after the first month...always in the same pedal position, despite gear position, more pronounced when hammering. After having the LBS tinker around with it thinking it was a loose crankarm or pedal, they opened it up and, oila, water! And rust. In a sealed BB. Now I've ridden 4 times in the rain and am anal about my bike care, so I don't think it is that. More than likely I'm getting water in when I clean my chain and chainring. I'm guessing this is the problem since my last bike suffered the same thing after 2 years.

So my questions and comments while I wait for Trek to send the LBS a new BB under the warranty (they've cleaned it out and lubed it for me so I don't miss any days of riding):

1) how can you clean your chain and chainring without getting water near the BB (besides very carefully)? I use Pedros degreaser on the chain every two weeks (about 250 miles), and use a cleaner brush box (you know, the machines you clamp on to your chain) to clean the chain, and a brush to clean the chainring and rear wheel cogs. I carefully use water to clean off the chain and chainring of degreaser residue and dirt, as well as the rear wheel cogs, but I am guessing that is where water is getting in the BB (as well as maybe in the rear hub). After the cleaning, I used Race Line teflon dry spray on the chain.

On the rear hub, after a light spray, I spin extra water out of the cogs and angle it down to let any water run away from the hub. After about 10 minutes, I finish off 'flossing' in between the cogrings with a cloth.

2) I don't have the tools to pull a crankarm, or the expertise to take apart the rear hub.

3) The LBS owner told me, in the first month after I bought the bike when I specifically asked him about riding in the rain and what I need to do vis-a-vis the BB, that all I needed to do was to wipe the bike down.....the BB was sealed. Now his knowledgeable lead mechanic has told me that I should remove the cable housing screw at the bottom of the BB in order to let any water inside drain out. Any info on sealed BBs? How much care and maintenance is required?

4) Regarding the rear derailleur pulleys - the Shimano Ultegras say they have sealed bearings. I still spray dry teflon lube into them once a month. Useless? Useful? Again, just how 'sealed' is a sealed bearing?

Please help me from ruining yet another BB!! Thanks!!!

Addendum: Trek is saying the water in the BB is normal wear and tear and that after riding in the rain, I need to take off the seat post and turn the bike upside down to let the water drain out since that is where it is entering from during a rainy ride. So they are trying to not cover the BB under warranty. The LBS is fighting it for me though. FYI and not directly relevant to my maintenance questions above.

I was going to suggest the same thing as Kaiser- but also, you'll want to make sure when they put the bottom bracket back on your bike, they use that thick polylube 1000 lube for your bottom bracket. They should just squirt that stuff in and get as much lube in there as they can (without making too much of a mess). They did that with my beater bike, and when I took off the bottom bracket, for as much rain as I've ridden through, it's still in almost perfect condition as when the bottom bracket was first installed. I was impressed... REAL impressed.

Koffee

Addendum: Trek is saying the water in the BB is normal wear and tear and that after riding in the rain, I need to take off the seat post and turn the bike upside down to let the water drain out since that is where it is entering from during a rainy ride. So they are trying to not cover the BB under warranty.

Does anybody actually do this ?

Why doesn't the salesman tell you this when you plunk down over $2000 for this machine ? "By the way don't let it get wet, it will self-destruct".

This is absolutely lame. Shame on you Trek.

Dan

No one told me... I have to say, maybe it's the TREK dealers that should be shamed. That's where I bought my first bike, and after I rode in the rain numerous times, I ended up bringing it to an independent, one man LBS, and HE told me about the BB and all that stuff. I was shocked- I had no idea it was bad on the BB to ride in the rain before I got the lecture.

Koffee

If this is a Shimano cartridge BB, then there is no way for water to enter from within the BB shell, only from the outside ends. You can't put more lube into them, they are non-maintainable units.
If the bike has a drainage hole on the underside of the BB shell, then leave it open, even when riding in the rain.

Water and worse, solvent, enters the BB bearings between the black plastic seals and the rotating parts. Keep any solvent away. Never spray WD40 into the seals. Never wipe dirt across the seals. Personally I try to avoid cleaning around the BB. When its new I like to coat any exposed spindle in car wax, then just leave it.

Does anybody actually do this ?

Well, yes I do. When I recently took a bike on vacation that rode through heavy rains while on the car rack, I immediately pulled the seatpost and dumped maybe 1/4' cup of water out. I put a coating of grease on the seat post when I re-installed it to seal and prevent removal issues later. I know what the seat post measurement is, so setting my ride height is no problem. If you've ridden in the rain it is a cheap and quick bit of maintenance that you should do.

Interesting.

I have rebuilt probably more than 100 bikes - many of them that have been left in the rain for months at a time. Most of the bikes I work on have old style BBs not sealed cartidges.

Sometimes you will get a bearing set that has rusted and needs replacement, but those are usually 20+ year old bikes. I find it curious that this is a persistant problem with TREK. What is unique about Trek that makes them vulnerable to water damage?

Most bikes have a hole in the bottom stay tube that allows drainage and helps dry out the inside of the bike. Is this not part of your bikes design?

My BB doesn't have a drainage hole built into the frame....what it does have is a screw hole for the cable guide. Apparently I need to take that out to let it drain.

Thank you for the replies. I am, however, still interested in what I can do as far as regular maintenance. I need to clean the chain and chainring. The only way I know how to do this is solvent. Any suggestions?

MichaelW, yes the BB cartridge is supposed to be sealed and unmaintainable. But then how did they open it up, find rust, clean it out and relube it? Something I will have to ask when I go by the LBS to pick my bike up this afternoon.

But then how did they open it up, find rust, clean it out and relube it? Something I will have to ask when I go by the LBS to pick my bike up this afternoon.

I think the LBS meant they found rust in your BB shell and thus cleaned it a relubed it before putting the BB back in.

The Shimano BB is indeed sealed and water should not be able to enter the cartridge itself. However, the way the BB mounts into the BB of the frame is not *necessarily* water tight, provided the BB is not greased liberally when it's installed.

The clicking I experienced originated from where the left side BB nut snugged down around the BB body. It's a simple interface between the nut and a raised band around the cartridge--if this intersection is not greased fully, the two bare metal surfaces can slip/stick w/ every pedal stroke. Water will exacerbate this condition, and water CAN enter this intersection if it's not fully greased--it's the way the Shimano BB is designed.

FWIW (and to show what I do/don't know :D) I've never heard of H2O running down the seat post either...

I think the LBS meant they found rust in your BB shell and thus cleaned it a relubed it before putting the BB back in.

Yes! The rust is from the outside of the BB, onto your BB shell. The Ultegra BB is sealed, so there's no maintenance necessary. I found the same thing on my brother's bike when I was cleaning it for him. When I took off his BB, I notice some rust an water on in the BB shell from a downpour we were in 2 weeks prior. I drained it and wiped off the rust in the BB shell and BB, itself. There was no problem with his Ultegra BB though, just some rust that was easily wiped off.

Now, your clicking sound may mean that you have a bad BB or the LBS may have put in a non-sealed BB on you bike. This can get water in the BB. Regardless, if it's the BB that's the problem, it's the BB manufacture's problem (Shimano), not Trek. Your LBS need to contact Shimano about it. Heck, your LBS should just replace the BB for you and then work on getting the BB warranty. The BB is $40 and you've spent $2k+ on the bike. That's the least your LBS can do so that you don't have have to deal with this crap.

Don't unscrew the cable guide on the bottom, that's not there for that purpose. You may mess up your shifting, if you do that since both the front and read der's sit on it. You can do what others have suggested and take off you seatpost and turn your bike upside-down or buy the tools to properly remove the cranks and BB to drain and clean out the BB shell.

The rust is from the outside of the BB, onto your BB shell.

The 5200 frame is aluminum, isn't it?

The 5200 frame is aluminum, isn't it?

Carbon Fiber

Might I ask if the BB for Compagnolo is sealed too? I have Veloce, and I've always been afraid that I will have problems if I ride in the rain. So far, I've been avoiding it and just going for one of my other bikes if it's raining.

Koffee

Two people in our club riding Serotta custom Ti experienced water in BB and had to replace at their cost. LBS said same thing about water entering seat tube. Several members have made custom covers to stop the water.

I've said this a gazillion times (well, three times):

This is a great excuse to get another bike. It's advisable to have a cheaper, alu bike to ride in wet weather.

If you ride in very wet conditions, especially at reasonable speeds with stacks of road spray, water will find a way to get into your frame.

Sometimes, if I get stuck on my good bike in heavy rain, I roll home slowly (if it's not too far :) ) to avoid heavy road spray.

You are all right: the Ultegra BB is indeed sealed and the rust was on the outside of the BB shell. Lubed liberally now by the LBS and the sound has stopped. Oddly though, it is now neither as smooth or as silent as it was before and I am pushing to get the BB replaced, either under warranty or at my own cost.

Here's something interesting that has knocked Trek down immensely in my opinion of it: while they won't cover the BB under warranty, they sent the LBS ("at no cost" - woopee!!) a screw for the bottom cable guide that has a hole in the center. To replace the current screw and allow water to run out. Now the fact that they did this tells me they are aware of the problem and know that it needs to be resolved. Hmmmmm..... I'm disappointed because I was immensely happy to be buying a locally manufactured bike (I'm in Chicago and Trek is in Wisconsin) and proud of the fact that my bike was made a few hundred miles away. Now I'm just saddened that the one of the foremost US bike manufacturers acts in this way.

Bottom Brackets are a disposable part. The only reason Trek offered the hollow screw is to keep people from drilling a hole in the BB shell possibly jeopardizing the integrity of the carbon frame. You're making a Federal case out of NOTHING. Your beef is with Shimano not Trek as it was the Shimano component over which Trek has no direct control that is the problem. Your LBS should replace the BB for you then deal with Shimano I know from personal experience that this is not at all uncommon to do.

Here's something interesting that has knocked Trek down immensely in my opinion of it: while they won't cover the BB under warranty, they sent the LBS ("at no cost" - woopee!!) a screw for the bottom cable guide that has a hole in the center. To replace the current screw and allow water to run out. Now the fact that they did this tells me they are aware of the problem and know that it needs to be resolved. Hmmmmm..... I'm disappointed because I was immensely happy to be buying a locally manufactured bike (I'm in Chicago and Trek is in Wisconsin) and proud of the fact that my bike was made a few hundred miles away. Now I'm just saddened that the one of the foremost US bike manufacturers acts in this way.

Well, there's a reason for that. As much as it'll let water out, it will also let things (dirt, etc) in as well.

Bottom Brackets are a disposable part. The only reason Trek offered the hollow screw is to keep people from drilling a hole in the BB shell possibly jeopardizing the integrity of the carbon frame. You're making a Federal case out of NOTHING. Your beef is with Shimano not Trek as it was the Shimano component over which Trek has no direct control that is the problem. Your LBS should replace the BB for you then deal with Shimano I know from personal experience that this is not at all uncommon to do.

Well said!

You are all right: the Ultegra BB is indeed sealed and the rust was on the outside of the BB shell.

Aren't all Trek BB shells lined with aluminum (on CF frames)?

You mean that the BB cartridge itself was rusted, correct?

Yes, there was rust on the BB cartridge itself.

I'm not sure how it is a Shimano problem. I would guess Shimano doesn't make their BB cartridges to sit in a puddle of water that has nowhere to go. Or perhaps Trek should put out a warning with their bikes indicating that you should ride in any kind of moisture at your own risk and riding in the rain will void the warranty.

If I am making a federal case out of it, it is because having BB problems on a bike that retails for close to $3,000 within a month of buying it is not what I would expect. I know that when, in the past, I've owned Performance branded private-label bikes, Performance has stood behind them 100%. I have seen the guys at that shop replace things on people's bikes that were definitely user-caused. Trek is a manufacturer with a much more well-known brand. I can replace my BB for under $50 with a top notch Dura-Ace model...but that doesn't diminish the fact the I will have had to do so at my own cost on a bike that is 3 months old and was ridden in the rain a total of 4 times.

Yes, there was rust on the BB cartridge itself.

I'm not sure how it is a Shimano problem. I would guess Shimano doesn't make their BB cartridges to sit in a puddle of water that has nowhere to go. Or perhaps Trek should put out a warning with their bikes indicating that you should ride in any kind of moisture at your own risk and riding in the rain will void the warranty.

If I am making a federal case out of it, it is because having BB problems on a bike that retails for close to $3,000 within a month of buying it is not what I would expect. I know that when, in the past, I've owned Performance branded private-label bikes, Performance has stood behind them 100%. I have seen the guys at that shop replace things on people's bikes that were definitely user-caused. Trek is a manufacturer with a much more well-known brand. I can replace my BB for under $50 with a top notch Dura-Ace model...but that doesn't diminish the fact the I will have had to do so at my own cost on a bike that is 3 months old and was ridden in the rain a total of 4 times.It's the LBS's problem not Trek's YOU should have brought the bike back to the shop whenever the problem started to occur (month #1) You have two seperate issues here
Your bottom bracket is defective take it in demand that it be replaced.
The OCLV frame retains water which caused surface rust on your BB, a remedy was issued (the Hollow screw) problem solved unless you want to dill a hole in your frame which (while amazingly foolish) is still you call. (Warranty? what warranty?)

Guess what surface rust on a BB has NOTHING to do with it's actual function! That's why it's called SURFACE rust. In fact the water that enters the shell would have to eat through the shell of the bottom bracket to actually do any damage what-so-ever which obviously is NOT the case. IF and I mean if there is any bearing damage caused by water it came from the EXTERIOR of the frame, not from water entering the seat tube. It works this way on $300 bikes as well as the snob specials. The problem is NOT Trek's it's your's. Get it fixed.

Well, there's a reason for that. As much as it'll let water out, it will also let things (dirt, etc) in as well.
This is an interesting point. I am getting out of topic here, but most of my BB shells have drain holes in them. Some of the steel lugs actually have huge ornate holes in them. In addition, there were no nice sealed BBs in many of these older bikes, but somehow these survived a very long time that way (with contamination getting in). My Litespeed Tuscany also has a drain hole at the bottom of the BB shell - and since it is titanium, I am guessing that it is so that the BB doesn't sit in puddle of water. As a matter of fact there is a large hole in the plastic cable guide so that the BB shell hole is not covered by this plastic cable guide.
These sealed BBs are marvelous, especially for mountain bikes, but I am interested in the real purpose for the hole in the BB shell and why some shells have and others don't. I don't buy the explanation of a Supergo sales "expert", who once told me that it is for "ventilation". Can someone who really understands the issue and tradeoffs explain it?

Kaiser, I think that you have a great point. If there is a maintenance needed on a bike, without which there will be a short term damage (more than ordinary wear), it should be pointed out in and out of manual. Furthermore, Trek sold is the bike maker, not Shimano. Why should you be required to deal with subcontractors on fancy bike which should be still under warranty? Shimano then can tell you that the shell parts are from company XYZ from Korea, and you'll have to follow with them? They designed, manufactured and distributed the bike, they should make sure it works as a system with all it's components. I work for a company which manufactures complex systems using components from many sources, often several souces for the same component. We would never consider to suggest to a customer who has a problem with the sub-system to take a component out and deal with that manufacturer. That wouldn't get us far.

This is an interesting point. I am getting out of topic here, but most of my BB shells have drain holes in them. Some of the steel lugs actually have huge ornate holes in them. In addition, there were no nice sealed BBs in many of these older bikes, but somehow these survived a very long time that way (with contamination getting in). My Litespeed Tuscany also has a drain hole at the bottom of the BB shell - and since it is titanium, I am guessing that it is so that the BB doesn't sit in puddle of water. As a matter of fact there is a large hole in the plastic cable guide so that the BB shell hole is not covered by this plastic cable guide.
These sealed BBs are marvelous, especially for mountain bikes, but I am interested in the real purpose for the hole in the BB shell and why some shells have and others don't. I don't buy the explanation of a Supergo sales "expert", who once told me that it is for "ventilation". Can someone who really understands the issue and tradeoffs explain it?
"Ventilation"? That's priceless! The drain hole is there for exactly that to drain water out of the BB shell. It's there mainly as a hold over from the old cup and cone bottom brackets as they could be more easily damaged / contaminated by having water present for an extended time. It's not as critical on modern bikes as the sealed BB eliminates the concern of contamination for the most part. Another use for these holes is on steel frames where the benefits of removing the water should be self evident. <tongue-in-cheek> It also makes the bike lighter. As you know a gallon of water weighs in at 8.33 lbs (or 3.77842 Kilograms for you metric types) so naturally anything you can do to drop weight will benefit performance.</tongue-in-cheek>

If the BB shell itself is damaged or at fault (the part of the frame into which the BB cartridge threads), than Trek owes you a new frame.

If H2O got in because of improper assembly, the bike shop owes you a new BB + labor

Failing those two possibilities and with 1200 miles on it, this bike is *yours*

Chalk it up to experience and buy a new BB.

I would check the seatpost for possible water intrusion. Is the seatpost greased? If there is a slot in the top of the seat tube that extends below the seat post clamp, it may be that the rear tire throws water against this slot. The water could possibly seep between the post and the tube using the slot as an entryway. If so, then some grease on the seat tube below the slot would help fill the small gap between post and tube to prevent water from getting past the seatpost. If the seatpost is already greased, then there must be another entry point that needs to be found and sealed.

I would check the seatpost for possible water intrusion. Is the seatpost greased? If there is a slot in the top of the seat tube that extends below the seat post clamp, it may be that the rear tire throws water against this slot. The water could possibly seep between the post and the tube using the slot as an entryway. If so, then some grease on the seat tube below the slot would help fill the small gap between post and tube to prevent water from getting past the seatpost. If the seatpost is already greased, then there must be another entry point that needs to be found and sealed.
edit Carbon post + carbon frame + grease = bad idea

Well, the owner of the LBS came back from vacation, called up Trek and Trek will cover the replacement of the BB. Along with the screw with the hole for 'ventilation' :), and the other rain counter-measures, this should take care of the problem.

On a side note, Raiyn, I am glad you are neither my LBS owner or Trek rep. ;) Thank you for your help though. BTW, there is no chemical reaction between grease and carbon fiber (you're a wrench, but I used to work in the petrochemical industry). Quite the opposite - manufacturers of CF bikes recommend greasing the areas where metal will come into contact with CF (like the headset cups). A good syn grease will serve as a barrier against fusion of the two parts over time. Same is true if you have a metal seatpost into a CF frame (not for a CF seatpost though). Call Kestrel if you don't believe me.

And I actually did take it into my LBS - twice. once when the noise initially started and once again a few months later. Both times they retorqued the crankarms and checked the pedals and both times the noise went away - for a week or two before reappearing. The third time they decided to disassemble the crank assembly and take a look inside.

Thanks for everyone's help! Tailwinds.

Grease + Carbon = potential failure of the carbon due to a chemical reaction to the grease. In short a bad idea.

Say what?? Could you elaborate on what reaction is taking place?

On a side note, Raiyn, I am glad you are neither my LBS owner or Trek rep. ;) Thank you for your help though. BTW, there is no chemical reaction between grease and carbon fiber (you're a wrench, but I used to work in the petrochemical industry). Quite the opposite - manufacturers of CF bikes recommend greasing the areas where metal will come into contact with CF (like the headset cups). A good syn grease will serve as a barrier against fusion of the two parts over time. Same is true if you have a metal seatpost into a CF frame (not for a CF seatpost though). Call Kestrel if you don't believe me.

.I don't here's why:
Read your owners manual

"Lubricate the seatpost every year (except OCLV bikes where no lubrication is recommended; See Care Of Your Frame or Fork on pages 85-87

For aluminum or steel frames, lubricate the seatpost to prevent seizing in the frame. Do not lubricate a seatpost in an OCLV frame; inside the seat lug of OCLV carbon frames, a thin layer of fiberglass acts as an insulator to prevent corrosion.

I don't know why Kestrel would tell you to grease a Trek (hmmm yeah actually I do) The thing of it is YOUR OWN MANUAL SAYS NOT TO. http://www.trekbikes.com/bikes/2004/pdf/04_bike_owners_manual_en.pdf
If I were you which I'm not (thankfully) I wouldn't grease that seatpost lest I give Trek any ammo to void my warranty.
As far as the Carbon + Grease = Bad goes I've never had a situation on a bike where it was needed nor recommended due to the possibility of an adverse reaction. Carbon does not corrode to metal and as long as the laminate is intact (ie smooth surface) there's no way that a metal should bond to it.

Well, you are (thankfully) NOT my mechanic either. :) I believe you are confusing two different issues, Raiyn. One main reason not to lube the seatpost on an OCLV is that Trek uses their Bontrager carbon fiber seatposts with their CF frame models. As I mentioned above, you don't lube a carbon fiber seatpost, because lube between two finished carbon fiber components won't allow for proper friction and the seatpost is prone to slip. And, as you mentioned, they have a fiberglass sheath inside the lug so it is not necessary to lube to protect the components.

Anyway, I certainly hope you haven't assembled any Kestrel CF frames on your job, since you seem to not want to put grease on anything CF: www.kestrel-usa.com/products/carefiles/200_care.doc Specifically, "...grease the insides and faces of the head tube where the cups go in, and the crown race seat. Grease acts as an insulator against galvanic reaction betwen the carbon frame and aluminum head cups. Galvanic means electricity, usually caused through a chemical reaction. So, quite the opposite of causing a chemical reaction, and subsequent problems, the grease actually prevents it. If you believe what Kestrel is saying. Since, they are only one of the first companies to build CF frames and have only been doing so for 18 years, I'd be prone to believe them. Since I've seen my authorized Trek dealer putting lube on certain areas of CF frames, I'd believe it's OK as well.

Is there 'a possibility of an adverse reaction' between grease and carbon fiber frames? Sure, there's a possibilty that someone will replace your bottle of syn lube with liquid caustic soda and it will corrode a CF frame and the caustic fumes will also burn your eyes out :eek: . Otherwise...no.

Guys, I hope that you permit me to digress, but Kaiser just mentioned something that I've heard in the past and that is that some types of plastics get attacked quite aggresively by say spilling a Coke on it. Are there common liquids or drinks, etc. that could be dangerous to CF materials and one should watch for?

ComPH, as Raiyn mentioned, I think the CF frames are all protected by a nice laminate coat. The way I understand the manufacturing process, the way carbon fiber frames get their strength is from the way the CF is layed out along with the epoxy that is used to bind them together. The clear coat laminate is layed on top and provides protection for the whole set up. Anything that will corrode at the laminate and allow the CF and epoxy matrix to be compromised would be a problem. I don't know what liquids would do that, but I imagine that after almost two decades on the market, if there were any common liquids that could do that, we'd know about it and would hear about it when we bought the CF framed bikes.

FYI, for anyone who is interested in CF frame makeup, here is an article that I found last year when researching about CF frames: http://www2.sjsu.edu/orgs/asmtms/artcle/articl.htm The article itself is on frame metallurgy and covers the different common materials used to make bike frames. The CF section is here: http://www2.sjsu.edu/orgs/asmtms/artcle/carbon.htm Good reading if you are into the technical aspects of frames. For the rest, it makes for good reading to put you to sleep. ;)

Well, you are (thankfully) NOT my mechanic either. :) I believe you are confusing two different issues, Raiyn. One main reason not to lube the seatpost on an OCLV is that Trek uses their Bontrager carbon fiber seatposts with their CF frame models. As I mentioned above, you don't lube a carbon fiber seatpost, because lube between two finished carbon fiber components won't allow for proper friction and the seatpost is prone to slip. And, as you mentioned, they have a fiberglass sheath inside the lug so it is not necessary to lube to protect the components.

Anyway, I certainly hope you haven't assembled any Kestrel CF frames on your job, since you seem to not want to put grease on anything CF: www.kestrel-usa.com/products/carefiles/200_care.doc Specifically, "...grease the insides and faces of the head tube where the cups go in, and the crown race seat. Grease acts as an insulator against galvanic reaction betwen the carbon frame and aluminum head cups. Galvanic means electricity, usually caused through a chemical reaction. So, quite the opposite of causing a chemical reaction, and problems, the grease actually prevents it. If you believe what Kestrel is saying. Since, they are only one of the first companies to build CF frames and have only been doing so for 18 years, I'd be prone to believe them. Since I've seen my authorized Trek dealer putting lube on certain areas of CF frames, I'd believe it's OK as well.

Is there 'a possibility of an adverse reaction' between grease and carbon fiber frames? Sure, there's a possibilty that someone will replace your bottle of syn lube with liquid caustic soda and it will corrode a CF frame. Otherwise...no.After a bit more independent research in the subject of the headset fitting. I learned that galavnic corrosion is actually increased in a metal / CF bond (unexpectedly I might add as galvanic corrosion is much more commonly seen in disimilar metals situations) when exposed to seawater (which generally speaking is a much better electolyte that ordinary rain unless of course the pollution level is up in your neck of the woods) so obviously a barrier treatment is needed. I questioned the use of a petrochemical grease agent in conjunction with a polymer as the the two can react in some cases. I was taught (incorrectly as it seems) that Carbon Fiber does not mix with grease for the reason stated above. I was told that it would invite the layers to separate due to a chemical reaction between the grease and the polymers / epoxies. I stand corrected .

I still, however, disagree with you on the subject of the bottom bracket the bearings could not be damaged by water INSIDE the frame as you've stated.

Edit The 5200 has an aluminum insert bonded in the headtube as well as the bottom bracket so the CF to metal corrosion factor is a moot point on that bike

No, you're right...I didn't mean to imply or say that inside of the sealed BB would be ruined by the water. It is sealed. I will say that it is not nearly as silent as it was before, but this could be due to a myriad of factors. Anyway, I'm getting it replaced so I'm happy.

Now, despite what seemed to be a disagreement here, could you, as a knowledgeable wrench, answer my questions on maintenance (the ones in the first post of the thread)? I still want to maintain my bike, but this entire episode has made me paranoid about the use of any kind of water anywhere near the BB. No one has really addressed the questions that I posed about cleaning (points 1 and 4) at the beginning of the thread.

No, you're right...I didn't mean to imply or say that inside of the sealed BB would be ruined by the water. It is sealed. I will say that it is not nearly as silent as it was before, but this could be due to a myriad of factors. Anyway, I'm getting it replaced so I'm happy.

Now, despite what seemed to be a disagreement here, could you, as a knowledgeable wrench, answer my questions on maintenance (the ones in the first post of the thread)? I still want to maintain my bike, but this entire episode has made me paranoid about the use of any kind of water anywhere near the BB. No one has really addressed the questions that I posed about cleaning at the beginning of the thread.
in most instances as long as you're not directing water into the bearings by forces (with a hose presssure washer etc) the seals should be adequate for normal use. Lubricants commonly used in in components such as bottom brackets tend not to break down in the presence of water examples include Phil Wood's Grease and Marine trailer bearing grease (they are virtually the same thing so buy a tub of the Marine grease for $3 as opposed to $8 a tube for Phil's) I wouldn't worry about riding in the rain as long as you keep the parts relatively clean and dry the bike upon your return. Keep it properly lubed and the bike should last for quite a while.

Thanks. Will do. I'm pretty anal about keeping my bikes in perfect shape (if you couldn't tell); I still have a 1986 Raleigh Grand Prix (last year they made it in England; hand lugged and hand painted) in perfect running condition.

What about my question #4: regarding the 'sealed' pulleys on the Shimano Ultegra rear derailleur? Should I even bother to spray in some dry lube once a month or is it truly 'sealed' and a waste of time and supplies? Thanks in advance for your reply.

Thanks. Will do. I'm pretty anal about keeping my bikes in perfect shape (if you couldn't tell); I still have a 1986 Raleigh Grand Prix (last year they made it in England; hand lugged and hand painted) in perfect running condition.

What about my question #4: regarding the 'sealed' pulleys on the Shimano Ultegra rear dérailleur? Should I even bother to spray in some dry lube once a month or is it truly 'sealed' and a waste of time and supplies? Thanks in advance for your reply.
You're not hurting anything by doing it and those pulleys are again a disposable part. I'm rather indifferent to it to be honest, if you were doing it more often than once a month I'd advise that you back off but with the amount of miles you put on it can't hurt.

Well if water is entering the seat post and water bottle brackets, there must be a way to correct the problem at the source (or at least get it down to a roar).

What about painting water-tight stuff around the edges there where the post meets the frame?

>>taking off seat .. bouncing the bike ... tipping it upside down ... Doesn't drain ... Can't do rain... get a 2nd bike(that was probably already ruined by rain)?

Wada dork de$ign$$$ I also have a 5200. hmmm....I'm beginning to think that biking is too much trouble for my kind of commutes. The "road bike" just can't cut it!???

>>taking off seat .. bouncing the bike ... tipping it upside down ... Doesn't drain ... Can't do rain... get a 2nd bike(that was probably already ruined by rain)?

Wada dork de$ign$$$ I also have a 5200. hmmm....I'm beginning to think that biking is too much trouble for my kind of commutes. The "road bike" just can't cut it!???
Do you have the hollow screw? Do you believe that the shell of the bottom bracket will rust through before the bearings are kaput? If not don't worry about it. Carbon Fiber doesn't rust and the rest is designed to be replaced.

Do you have the hollow screw? Do you believe that the shell of the bottom bracket will rust through before the bearings are kaput? If not don't worry about it. Carbon Fiber doesn't rust and the rest is designed to be replaced.

No hollow screw but My Trek 2200 BB and free wheel had the same clunking and water problem as Kaiser describes. This 5200 also has no drain holes and it'd be wise to:

A. Prevent water from getting in there while cycling
B. Figure out an easy way to drain the water without the neighbors wondering if I learned a strange dance with my bike (tip'n rock'n and roll'n) :D

What about something like this?
http://www.cambriabike.com/bb/action_tec_dry_valve_bb_drain.htm

No hollow screw but My Trek 2200 BB and free wheel had the same clunking and water problem as Kaiser describes. This 5200 also has no drain holes and it'd be wise to:

A. Prevent water from getting in there while cycling
B. Figure out an easy way to drain the water without the neighbors wondering if I learned a strange dance with my bike (tip'n rock'n and roll'n) :D

What about something like this?
http://www.cambriabike.com/bb/action_tec_dry_valve_bb_drain.htm
The Hollow screw IS the drain hole on a 5200 and I'd suspect that it would fit your bike as well. I've never used the Action Tec device but i do know that if there is any drilling involved it wouldn't be suitable for a carbon bike.
How long has it been since either the BB or freehub has been serviced?

The concept of waterproofing a bike is still new to me. We don't waterproof cars but we waterproof bikes? Hmmm. Sounds like a quality issue to me.
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But here's another waterproofing tip:

"Sealed Cables" ... dab some silicone at the ends of the plastic sheath, at the point that the wire emerges. The water-proof silicone will seal the braze-on and the inside of the cable housing to some extent, reducing the friction created by grit and corrosion.


Source (and additional tips) : http://www.bicyclesource.com/bike/modifying/mud-proofing.shtml

Reviving this thread. For those who are seeking the drain hole screw for Trek5220 et.el. Your dealer can order and install it proably for free. Mine's on and just in time for the monsoons! :)

Here is Gary's response and Part Number from TREK.
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instock, part number 253246 <-----P/N for Drain Hole screw.
Josh Vick
Gary Fisher/Trek Bicycle Tech Support
josh_vick@trekbikes.com