Bicycle Mechanics - idiotic statements from bike vendors

Doing a web search for bike products, I stumbled upon wheelbuilder.com. Wow, looks nice, high quality products, I thought. They make claims about how their wheels are the most durable, because of their materials and expertise. That may be, but it really burns me when they perpetuate this folklore:

From http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/spoke-information.html


Double Butted Spokes:
Can be easily identified by a change in spoke diameter near the head of the spoke and near the threaded portion of the spoke. Double butted spokes are lighter than straight gauge and offer better ride qualities due to a more flexible center section. These are generally very strong, however spokes with 1.5mm center sections are not recommended for mountain applications.

...

Straight Gauge Spokes:
These are the simplest spokes for in any type of general purpose or heavy-duty application. They have a constant diameter throughout their length, which makes them slightly heavier than double butted spokes. Straight gauge spokes offer a stiffer ride than single or double butted spokes because of their thicker cross section. Grr! It's conceivable that they build wheels with the proper materials but without understanding why double butted spokes exist. They do not ride any differently than straight gauge spokes.

Why do I let this crap get to me?

Why do I let this crap get to me?
Because you have too much free time? Why not write your own website about wheels and their components and then you can get your (correct) message out to the world?

Maybe they did not think before they spoke?

^ rimshot

Its very interesting all the opinions on wheels and builds. Every wheel is in not for every rider I've found. There is so many varied body and riding styles out there. A dedicated rider really needs to try a few sets, and get a custom hand built set done for them almost to get what they really want and/or need. Finding a good set of wheels is truly a valuable find.

If that fires you up, then you'll love this (http://www.prowheelbuilder.com/techtalk.php).

Maybe they did not think before they spoke?

Stop foaling around! :)

You should get into high-end audio equipment, where the only way you can get good sound is to buy a $484 wooden volume knob (http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/07/astronomically-overp.html). :lol:

You should get into high-end audio equipment, where the only way you can get good sound is to buy a $484 wooden volume knob (http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/07/astronomically-overp.html). :lol:
I'd buy one if it made the volume go to 11.

Why not write your own website about wheels and their components and then you can get your (correct) message out to the world?
He has. Tom contributes his free time helping others face to face also.
http://maplewood.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/show-me-your-basement-tom-reingold/

He has. Tom contributes his free time helping others face to face also.
http://maplewood.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/show-me-your-basement-tom-reingold/
Awesome! I just saw the article on Tom. Good for him. There aren't enough people like this in the world. Most people won't do a damn thing for you unless you pay them. Try getting a freebie from a lawyer or a vet or...................

I too fix bikes for others and I wouldn't dream of charging for it. The money end of it just complicates things as either they'll think I'm charging too much or I'll think I'm not getting paid enough. Ugghh. I just work on a bike until it's working perfectly, no matter how long it takes. Occasionally someone will give me a bottle of wine or rum. That's ok but it's not the motivational force.

Here's my wheelbuilding site from which I make not one penny. In fact it costs me $100/yr for the domain and site hosting -

http://miketechinfo.com/new-tech-wheels-tires.htm

You shouldn't let it get to your because it's a small matter. Some people will act on and perpetuate false information. Some people will find out for themselves.
I'd suggest leaving yourself open to the possibility that they may have a stiffer ride. You don't have to act on the possibility, or adopt this as the absolute truth. You can still act on, and pass along your own opinion that they make no difference. Any audience has access to the same pool of information and expert advice, so nothing's handcuffing them to adopt your opinion or wheelbuilder.com's opinion.
Instead, you can keep in mind what you have in common. Both believe in the value of hand built wheels.
These days, that's getting to be rarer and rarer.

AltaTerraCycle, I agree with what you say, and I'm sure the folks at that business would, too. But they are spreading misinformation, not about whether one wheel suits all riders but what happens when you use a straight-gauge or butted spoke. Straight-gauge spokes do not make a ride stiff. Butted spokes do not make it more absorbent or lively. That's my beef.

Thanks, Mike T. Nice perspectives.

Since that video, folks in my town have pleaded with me to pay me to fix their bikes or to sell them bikes. Who am I to say no to money? I am currently under-employed, so it's a good sideline for them. I still donate my time and expertise, but there's nothing wrong with earning money from a skill I love.

This week, a journalist is going to interview me on bike commuting in our town, so I'm looking forward to that.

If that fires you up, then you'll love this (http://www.prowheelbuilder.com/techtalk.php).

try living in vegas and having to listen to that everytime you go into the store. nice enough people but you would think they are gods gift to wheel building.

Hmmm, spoke-tension is spoke-tension. A 14ga spoke pulling on the rim with 100kg of force will be the same as a 15/16ga spoke. If you had a fishing scale in between the rim & spoke-end, it would read exactly the same for the same tension regardless of the type of spoke.

The only difference is when the rim is compressed at the bottom, the 14ga spoke will lose all tension at less rim-displacement than DB, but I don't see how that will affect wheel-stiffness or ride-quality. Considering that the tyre deforms 100x more than the wheel, I doubt anyone can claim to notice differences in feel of different spokes on identically built wheels. A change of 5psi in the tyres will result in much more significant difference in feel.

Straight gauge DOES offer a stiffer ride. Seriously. It ain' folklore.

Straight gauge DOES offer a stiffer ride. Seriously. It ain' folklore.

but only if it's tied and soldered.

and some more confusing tech talk, from Rock and Roll

Many riders ask, "What is the difference between the Extreme, Absolute Dry, and the Gold?" The Extreme is for MTB's and can be used on the road, but the Absolute Dry is for the road, only, and the Gold is for all bikes. Here's why: The bicycle, because it's on rubber tires, is not grounded, making the bicycle a static electricity machine. As the bicycle rolls along, it's constantly throwing off negative charged electrons, whereas the dirt along the ground is positively charged, and comes up to the bike to replace the discharge. The dirt is going to stick to whatever is sticky on the bike; of course the chain is the number one spot.

Road bikes generally tend to pick up more dirt from the discharge, so a thicker, dryer membrane is needed. Whereas the MTB, needs something that can take more dust from the front wheel being kicked up on the chain as well as water crossing, etc. The Gold, is the most recent addition to the Rock "N" Roll chain lube line-up. the Gold, works on all bicycles, staying cleaner and giving smoother pedaling, and shifting, then any lube we know of.

So...their gold is better than either their extreme and absolute dry?

I use Prolink so it doesnt matter to me ;)

I'd buy one if it made the volume go to 11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY

but only if it's tied and soldered.

Speaking of lore.

Speaking of lore.

although I was thinking, there might be a kernel of truth to this. I mean you're not going to go through the effort of tying and soldering spokes unless it is already a damn good wheel. The tying and soldering doesn't add anything, but it does indicate high quality.

If that fires you up, then you'll love this (http://www.prowheelbuilder.com/techtalk.php).

I get upset too -- I've seen this type get promoted into positions of authority & it's never a good thing.

Straight gauge DOES offer a stiffer ride. Seriously. It ain' folklore.

When folks make claims like this, I ask if they've done double blind tests with two sets of wheels with everything else the same. In this case, it would be the same hubs, rims and tires. I never get a yes answer. And that would still have been a subjective test, i.e. without a measurement machine, but still, no one does it.

Jobst Brandt has done the tests and debunked your folklore.

You are probably underestimating the power of the placebo effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY
He and I have been on the same wavelength for a long time. He makes total sense.

When folks make claims like this, I ask if they've done double blind tests with two sets of wheels with everything else the same. In this case, it would be the same hubs, rims and tires. I never get a yes answer. And that would still have been a subjective test, i.e. without a measurement machine, but still, no one does it.

Jobst Brandt has done the tests and debunked your folklore.

You are probably underestimating the power of the placebo effect.


If you're talking about radial stiffness, then yes, there should be no noticable difference. Now, lateral stiffness is a function of spoke gauge (among other things), and although the website calls it a 'stiffer ride' you can't really say what they're referring to (lateral or radial). When someone wants a 'stiff' wheel, this to me indicates they want something that will not flex as much side-to-side. Can a rider actually feel the difference? That depends on the type of riding and the rider. It can be felt, especially between the two extremes.


I've seen more outlandish statements from the big factory built wheel companies.

rydaddy, can you show me a scientific, double-blind study that isolated spoke gauge and measured relative lateral stiffness?

rydaddy, can you show me a scientific, double-blind study that isolated spoke gauge and measured relative lateral stiffness?


No I can't.

The very book you speak of lists all the factors affecting lateral stiffness. Spoke gauge is one of them. Whether someone actually feels the difference is a whole other discussion. In theory, the phrase that bothers you is not false.

rydaddy, fair enough. I stand corrected.

If anyone wants to bring data in about how a bike feels based on how its wheels are built, I'll be extremely eager to read it.

The problem with "feel" is that it's a sum of all parts on a bike. The wheels alone are only a small part of it. The frame and tyres certainly flexes significantly more than the wheels. And the damping characteristics of the frame can change the sensations of wheel-stiffness. As will the audible sounds. A super-stiff old-school fat-tube Cannondale will make the softest wheels on the market feel like you're riding on Fred-Flintstone era solid wheels; especially with the way sound resonates through a stiff alloy bike. While a CF frame of equal stiffness will have more damping of bumps and suppress sound more, making the stiffest wheels on the market feel like riding on marshmallows in comparison. If you were to ride the softest and swap to the stiffest wheels on the same bike, it'd be a wash as I doubt any human has the sensory precision necessary to notice the difference.


rydaddy, can you show me a scientific, double-blind study that isolated spoke gauge and measured relative lateral stiffness?Here's the only study I've seen on lateral-stiffness of wheels: Damon Rinard - Wheel Stiffness Test (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm). From looking at this data table (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/data.htm) of results, you can see that the difference of about 2mm between the stiffest and softest wheels is insignificant.

There weren't any identical wheels built with 2.0 versus 2.0/1.8 DB spokes, so there's no direct comparison, but I'd say that it's not as significant as the other two variables: spoke-count and bracing-angle. Compare #94 & #95 where the only difference is bracing-angle of heads-in versus heads-out and you get a 13% increase in stiffness with the wider angle. As a group, low spoke-count wheels (24 or less) have significantly higher lateral-deflection than high spoke-count wheels. Even when the low spoke-count wheels use thicker 2.0mm+ spokes, the wheels are still quite flexy. That indicates that spoke-thickness isn't as significant a factor in lateral-stiffness than the number of spokes. Interesting to see how the stiffest wheels were configured.

So if you want a really laterally-stiff wheel, build it using a wide box-section rim with 36-holes using 2.0mm straight-gauge spokes laced radially with the heads in. Whether that translates into any measurable performance differences or in the "feel" of the bike is debatable.

"The problem with "feel" is that it's a sum of all parts on a bike. The wheels alone are only a small part of it."
Excellent point. For many people, in terms of ride quality, air volume in tires is the beginning and end of it, as if no other elements become factors until you bottom the tire out against the rim. In my opinion, the tires are only a part of a web of factors.


"So if you want a really laterally-stiff wheel, build it using a wide box-section rim"
I might disagree, a deep V-section rim "feel" stiffer in my experience. But for any two box section rims, the wider of the two should feel stiffer.

One possible test would be to mount identital tires and tube on two wheels with different rim depths or different rim widths, both using the same type of spokes with the same spoke count. Say a 32h Velocity Deep V and a 32h Open Pro, both built to the same spoke tension, both using 14/15/14 spokes, or maybe two of the same rim, but one using 14g spokes and one using 14/15/14g spokes.
Measure the spoke tension with the tire and tube uninflated, then inflate the tire/tube to max pressure and remeasure the spoke tension. I'd try this myself, but I only have a pair of Ambrosio Excellence and Torelli Master wheels with same spoke types/counts. Both rims have similar widths and profiles.
A few weeks ago, someone wrote a post stating that spoke tension decreases once you inflate the tire. I was skeptical and proceeded to test this out for myself, and to my surprise, I measured a full and consistent decrease in spoke tension once air pressure was added. I'm not certain just how this is occurring, since it seems impossible to decrease the circumference of an alloy rim, but the numbers didn't lie.

Thoughts?

A few weeks ago, someone wrote a post stating that spoke tension decreases once you inflate the tire. I was skeptical and proceeded to test this out for myself, and to my surprise, I measured a full and consistent decrease in spoke tension once air pressure was added. I'm not certain just how this is occurring, since it seems impossible to decrease the circumference of an alloy rim, but the numbers didn't lie.

Thoughts?

Why not? Aluminum isn't some magic incompressible material, it'll deform in response to a force just like everything else.

Think of a rim that has been cut in half, as shown in my crude drawing. The red arrows are the force being applied to the rim by the inflated tire. At the points where I've "cut" the rim, the two sides are being squeezed back together. If they were already touching when they had that force applied to them, the rim would deform a little bit in compression.

Now think of the compression happening at the "cut" happening around the entire circumference of the rim. It would be compressed very slightly, reducing the radius a little bit and loosening the spokes a little bit.




As for the main point made by the OP: How are you defining wheel stiffness? If its defined as the amount that the hub (and therefore frame) moves downward in response to riders weight (or sudden momentary increases in forces such as bumps), then it makes sense that non-butted spokes would produce a stiffer wheel. The long part of the spoke that differs between butted and non-butted spokes is in extremely high tension, and rider weight and bumps add to the tension. Any material will deform under tension. If two structures are made of identical materials, but have different cross-sectional areas, the one with less area (a function of spoke gauge) will deform more.

Net result: If two wheels were completely identical besides their spokes, and the spokes were made of exactly the same material, the straight gauge version wouldn't flex downward as much.

Since no two wheels are identical, let alone the tires, innertube pressure, fork and frame materials, and other components are identical, the perception that straight gauge spokes yield a stiffer wheel is probably a placebo effect.

You have to look at directions of force. If you push on a door-knob to open a door, are you actually compressing or stretching the wood of the door? The next time you build a wheel, before inserting the spoke into the rim-hole, push on the spoke-end sideways close to where it enters the rim. How much force is resisting your movement? How much are you stretching the spoke?

You have to look at directions of force. If you push on a door-knob to open a door, are you actually compressing or stretching the wood of the door? The next time you build a wheel, before inserting the spoke into the rim-hole, push on the spoke-end sideways close to where it enters the rim. How much force is resisting your movement? How much are you stretching the spoke?

Can you be a little more clear on what you mean here? Are you trying to say that a good test of a spoke's strength is hold one end fixed, and try to bend it slightly by pressing on the other end? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I just don't understand.

I also don't understand your analogy to the doorknob. Do you mean pushing on it in a direction normal to the door (if you think of the door as a plane)? If so, whether you are compressing or stretching the wood of the door is a very complicated mechanics of materials question. Its probably being both stretched and compressed, just in different places.

JakcBeNimble, we're talking about stiffness, not strength.

Anyway, my point about the statement being idiotic is not that it's untrue. It's true, but not in any practical terms. The difference in radial stiffness is not perceptible. Mechanics and riders claim that they can perceive it, but they haven't even bothered to prove it. They just claim it and expect us to believe them. There's a lot of evidence that shows they're wrong and no evidence to show they're right.

JakcBeNimble, we're talking about stiffness, not strength.

Anyway, my point about the statement being idiotic is not that it's untrue. It's true, but not in any practical terms. The difference in radial stiffness is not perceptible. Mechanics and riders claim that they can perceive it, but they haven't even bothered to prove it. They just claim it and expect us to believe them. There's a lot of evidence that shows they're wrong and no evidence to show they're right.

Now we get down to it. I deal with the same thing in my line of work (golf club manufacturing)- so many ideas that have technical merit are practically useless (for example, "spine aligning" golf shafts in clubs).

Thanks again for posting this- it's been very instructional.