Tandem Cycling - [sigh]: ANOTHER newbie?

hey, folks!
finally got my new membership confirmation email, so now i can start ASKING questions rather than just looking for the right threads.

in brief:
i have been racing bikes--road, mountain, cyclocross, bmx, and 20 years ago tandems--since 1983, and now want to get back into tandem racing. i had a cannondale that we raced in the late 80s and early 90s, and had such great times and success.

well, a new partner who rides a lot has me excited about getting serious about it again, but i have many questions, and i figure there are likely more opinions here than elsewhere, so feel free to chime in. as an aside, i host a weekly cycling radio show, and this search, acquisition and building process is likely to be part of a multi-episode series, so if you'd like to be included as a contributor, let me know, and we can arrange telephone interviews.

1--frame material. i'm thinking titanium, aluminum, or carbon. we both ride 50 cm singles, and can have, therefore, a small and lightweight frame, which because of its small size will be quite stiff, for better or worse. what do YOU think?
2--frame builder or manufacturer. because a 50/50 is NOT stock, we will need a custom frame. who do YOU recommend? who do you think we should AVOID? tell me of you experiences.
3--brakes. disc or caliper? i haven't checked yet whether discs are legal in usacycling events, so it might be a moot question, but what are your experiences? which BRAND of brakes are best and lightest?
4--wheels. stable and reliable versus lightweight and aero advantage: well, what's out there, and what have YOU folks experienced?
5--stoker handlebars. what's best, regular drops or bull-horn style, or something else?

that should be enough for starters. if you have or are a racing team, let me know. i want to come into this armed with as much opinion as possible.

other data: my racing age is 56, and i'm a cat 1. my stoker is not yet licensed, but has been riding for years, and has competed in many triathlons and running races. she is preparing for the cyclocross season. she is 51. she weighs about, 110 or so, while i weigh about 150. i am 5'7, she is 5'6.

again, thanks so much for ANY suggestions, opinions, or tales of woe or joy from your tandem experiences.

--kim

I'd recommend starting here and read the entire year. He (Tandemgeek) offers a lot of insight and enough minutia:D to satisfy most weight and engineering-minded weenies. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading his journal and his responses on the forum.

Calfee Journal (http://www.thetandemlink.com/calfee_tandem.html)

1--frame material. i'm thinking titanium, aluminum, or carbon. we both ride 50 cm singles, and can have, therefore, a small and lightweight frame, which because of its small size will be quite stiff, for better or worse. what do YOU think?
2--frame builder or manufacturer. because a 50/50 is NOT stock, we will need a custom frame. who do YOU recommend?


Not a racer, but I'll opine on 1 and 2 anyway:

1. Carbon fiber.
2. Calfee

http://www.calfeedesign.com/customframes.htm


:D




.

Direct questions demand direct answers:

1--frame material: Carbon or Aluminum

2--frame builder or manufacturer. Calfee or Co-Motion

3--brakes. Dual Calipers, with ability to fit a rear disc if you decide to go on a trip where you may find yourselves facing some challenging descents and/or riding a lot in wet conditions.

4--wheels. Lightweight, conventionally spoked wheel built around Fusion or Deep-V for training, technically challenging road courses and all other forms of non-racing w/some type of true aero wheels for TTs. Rolf's do a good job, but they're not the end-all that can do both as well as two different sets of more application-specific wheels.

5--stoker handlebars. Depends on what your stoker finds comfortable. Bull-horns are less expensive and weigh much less, but also limit the number of different hand positions that can be used. Drop bars with stoker rests (dummer levers) are heavier and have some added cost for the stoker rests, but afford a stoker all of the hand positions they enjoy on their single road bike(s).

+1 on Calfee or Co-Motion.

Also Rue sports, Yin an Yang tandem would be an option. http://www.ruesports.com/frames/tandem.html

The Rue is built on 130mm spacing, which should be fine for your team weight, and gives you a lot of wheel options, such as Zipp 404 clydesdales.

As for Rim or disc brakes, I think the preference for racing tandems tends to skew toward Calipers.

At the Co-Motion Classic Tandem Race this year, my guestimate would be 10-20% of the bikes had disc brakes.

High quality calipers will stop the bike just fine. And Heat build up should not be an issue given your team weight, and since the intended use is racing, you won't typically be riding the brakes.

We did Everest Challenge on the Tandem last year with dura ace calipers and no problems.

However if you're specing a custom tandem, it wouldn't hurt to have a disc mount built into the rear drop out just inc ase you'd like to change to a disc for some occassion down the road.

It depends on how much money you want to spend.
There are options from $1K to $10K.
I would spend as much as possible unless you are not sure tandeming will be a long term commitment.

is anyone familiar with "paketa" bicycles? they make a very lightweight tandem that seems to get rave review for its weight, strength and comfort.

thanks for the comments thus far.

is anyone familiar with "paketa" bicycles? they make a very lightweight tandem that seems to get rave review for its weight, strength and comfort.

thanks for the comments thus far.

Nick Wigston of Zinn Cycles said that their sales of the V2 increased between 50% - 100% this year:


I've been doing some marketing for Paketa, and I have noticed a huge increase in sales of the V2 Racing Tandem (http://paketabike.com/index.cfm?page=paketa_v2_tandem). It is by far Paketa's most popular product. Seems like a lot of people are going tandem, and even racing. So I don't know if that's congruent with the rest of the industry, but locally I have seen an increase.

http://paketabike.com/files/v2_snowbg_gates.jpg

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=576144



:D

1--frame material. i'm thinking titanium, aluminum, or carbon. we both ride 50 cm singles, and can have, therefore, a small and lightweight frame, which because of its small size will be quite stiff, for better or worse. what do YOU think?
2--frame builder or manufacturer. because a 50/50 is NOT stock, we will need a custom frame. who do YOU recommend? who do you think we should AVOID? tell me of you experiences.... i am 5'7, she is 5'6.
--kim

I didn't think you needed a custom frame, so I emailed Michael Moore, Calfee's sales rep the stats you posted. His reply:



It sounds like our stock Small/Small (50/46) would work great. Keep in mind we measure to the bottom of the seat binder along the ST so, in fact, our TT drops 3.5 cm to the top of the TT.

I'd need to determine the Captain's max stand over height - check out this table (http://www.calfeedesign.com/tandemgeo.htm)for the requisite fitment details.

Custom costs more, you'll have a ton of expense with this in any case, so it is good to avoid a needless one from the get go.

My newly made bare Calfee Dragonfly frame, Size L/M, weighed 2930 grams nude, and 3280 grams painted (Cabernet Red). If in your research you can find what a similar aluminum Co-Motion Macchiato (http://www.co-motion.com/tandem_bikes/macchiato.html), magnesium Paketa V2 (http://www.paketabike.com/index.cfm?page=paketa_v2_tandem), and ti-carbon Santana Beyond (http://santanatandem.com/Bikes/Carbon07.html) frame weighs, that would be interesting (Santana claims the "Beyond frame is 1.5 pounds lighter than an otherwise identical pure carbon frame." This must mean a carbon frame with a lateral tube, none of which are now made).

Nick Wigston of Zinn Cycles said that their sales of the V2 increased between 50% - 100% this year:



I've been doing some marketing for Paketa, and I have noticed a huge increase in sales of the V2 Racing Tandem. It is by far Paketa's most popular product. Seems like a lot of people are going tandem, and even racing. So I don't know if that's congruent with the rest of the industry, but locally I have seen an increase.


... but no one's ever quantified "50% to 100% of what"?

If they sold 10 in '08 and 20 in '09, that would be different than 5 going to 10, or 20 going to 40. 40 would be a lot of Paketa tandems... Heck, it would be a healthy number of Calfee tandems in a year (or, at least it would have been a while back). I think our '08 Calfee was somewhere around No. 220... remembering that Calfee built it's first tandem back in 1998 or there abouts. In fact, it would be interesting to hear what serial number is on Ritterview's new Calfee or uspspro's Calfee just to get a feel for the production tempo at Calfee.

I'm not taking anything away from the Paketa tandems; most of the folks who have 'em love 'em... which is true of most high-end tandems: you can't please all of the people all of the time, eh? But, statements like that from marketing types are always interesting...

Yeah, like 20 on up to 30 or 40. Large percentage though.

He had indicated from "20 on up to 30 or 40." (from whence the 50%-100% figure was derived) which is a surprisingly vague answer for a person charged with marketing it given that the V2 lists for over $10k apiece. One would think that he would know exactly.


.

Our opinion:
Calfee or Rue for carbon fiber. Have ridden Calfees and seen/hefted Ying Yang Rue.
Co-Motion for alu or steel. Have ridden all sorts of Co-Mos. Seen/hefted the Macchiatto.
Magnesium: Paketa; have seen/hefted, but not ridden.
Ti: have ridden 2 full Ti tandems: Serotta and Santana. Nice but not overly impressed
As for Santana . . . they are good tandems but not racing stuff; they've never won either the Burley or Co-Motion Classic tandem race in Oregon; it was 'rumored' that Mr. Bill offered $$ for a 'tana win.
Still waiting for that.
Brakes: calipers; your choice of brand$/pads.
Weels, durable + light: Topolino.
Stoker bars: her choice! Try drops; if they don't work out, cut 'em down/flip 'em over and you have cowhorns.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Wheels, expensive + light: Topolino.

Fixed.;)

Frame material: If cost is no object, Carbon from a reputable builder. If cost is a consideration, Aluminum.
Frame Builder: Several good ones already mentioned. You do not need a custom frame. We are almost exactly your heights and weights and could easily adapt a stock "small" Co-Motion to our accustomed fits.
Brakes: We have three tandems with caliper brakes and a triple with discs. For racing, use caliper brakes. They are lighter and simpler. On a custom frame you can specify a rear disc mount just in case your needs change.
Wheels: As a serious racer, you are probably used to having separate sets for training and racing. No reason why you shouldn't do the same with your tandem. If the cost seems prohibitive, spend less on your frame.
Stoker Bars: zonatandem's advice is sound. Start with the stoker's favorite drop 'bars and add dummy levers. They will feel most natural to your stoker.

As mentioned the Calfee small/small might just fit you... We are very close to your size and love our Calfee Dragonfly and went with the standard size.

I do know about Paketas, ironically we have had the chance to get to know Dave Walker (the man behind the Paketa Tandem project). Had we met Dave BEFORE our Calfee purchase, we would very likely be riding a Paketa. They are very nice bikes! Very light too!

My stoker prefers drop bars (for more hand positions).

We opted for the rear disc brake because we ride mostly in the mountains here in Colorado. I agree that you would likely be fine without the disc, but I like the piece of mind that I will not overheat the rim (I have warped the disc and turned it some cool colors - but no big deal).

It is my belief that ALL of the high end manufacturers listed so far (Calfee, Paketa, Co-Motion, Rue Sports) are building high quality products. You will not get a unanimous answer for "the best".

If you are looking to build a lightweight tandem, be prepared to spend $$$. Build as nice of a bike as you can afford. We have a bit of $$ tied up in tandems - but we RIDE them!!! :thumb:

Keep asking questions here - you'll get a lot of different answers. There's a wealth of tandem knowledge on this forum.

Good luck on your journey to build the RIGHT tandem for YOU and YOUR stoker!

It is my belief that ALL of the high end manufacturers listed so far (Calfee, Paketa, Co-Motion, Rue Sports) are building high quality products.

Not so fast there on the Rue Sports. The Rue subforum at Fairwheel (http://fairwheelbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6557) has been locked, with the following explanation:


Since Rue Sports is not currently operating as a business we have closed this section. If they are able to re-emerge we will re-open this section.

The Rue Blog (http://ruesports.blogspot.com/) hasn't been updated since May, and the Rue Twitter (http://twitter.com/ruesports/statuses/3986041551) two days ago has this cryptic message:


Long story short: We're working on getting things back to where they belong.

So, scratch Rue as a source for carbon frames. As far I know, Calfee enjoys a monopoly on carbon tandems.

tandemgeek--
oddly enough, my stoker--recall, she is NOT a racer, just a triathlete and runner ;-)) --is TOTALLY jacked at the idea of a tandem track bike. the one time she visited a velodrome, she watched in awe as a tandem sped around the track. i CAN'T wait for THAT one!!
thanks for the advice; it's gonna take some time to sift through it all, and we're just entering cross season... i have friends who race their tandem mountain bike, too. they're at chequamegon this weekend, and have won the overall at some big mountain bike races, beating all the singles. so with their input, and the input i plan to continue to receive here, too, i think we'll be just fine.
and again, i DO intend to contact some of you folks to put together my series for the radio show.
thanks for everything so far, and in just one day! great!
--kim

... she watched in awe as a tandem sped around the track. i CAN'T wait for THAT one!!

Unfortunately, competitive tandem track racing these days is limited to paralympic type events and classifications where one of the riders must have a physical impairment OR demonstration events like the annual Tandemonium at Trexlertown, PA.

UCI / IOC / USCF have all dropped the tandem events after a series of fairly serious crashes, the OIC dropping it first after the '72 Olympics which pretty much took the wind out of the sails of track racing given the lack of an international marque event. The USCF and UCI seemed to drop it in the mid-90s.

He had indicated from "20 on up to 30 or 40." (from whence the 50%-100% figure was derived) which is a surprisingly vague answer for a person charged with marketing it given that the V2 lists for over $10k apiece. One would think that he would know exactly.

Paketa is a much smaller company than my employer, but I actually found that surprisingly much precision. Companies often like to keep that sort of information closely held (especially small numbers), although in a small company which competes on the basis of their unique features it is less so.

No doubt. But in the context of his original post (i.e. exclaiming "a huge increase in sales") it is less than precise. Either it is a huge increase intended to generate more interest or it is not and intended to protect proprietary information.

Given the uniqueness of the market segment for high end racing tandems I personally would have guessed going more like somewhere from 5 to 10.


.

Either it is a huge increase intended to generate more interest or it is not and intended to protect proprietary information.

Not knowing a heck of a lot more about the marketeer involved and without dropping Dave a line at Paketa, I'd take it all with a grain of salt.

Nice frames, but like the Calfees -- and perhaps even moreso -- they have a distinct narrow slice of what is already a very narrow market in the very narrow niche tandem market. Now, to be fair, there has been a lot of growth in the high-end performance tandem market as the tail end of the boomers who race bikes have gotten to a point where tandems are now attractive enough to be cool.

Everyone above has given you excellent advice and insights. I have no doubt you will build a phenomenal machine. The best part is that both of you have the engines to make it fly. It will be fun to watch your journey.
My vote is for Calfee, but I am prejudiced...We have one too. Spectacular ride. I have been riding carbon since the first days of the Kestrel 4000 and have never looked back. I raced triathlons for 17 years. When I switched to carbon from steel, I dropped my times on 40k courses, that I had ridden for years, by 10-12 minutes. Carbon makes a huge difference in performance.

i've ridden all sorts of frames, singles, that is: steel, carbon/aluminum, full carbon, scandium, titanium. i'm so small, that any 50cm frame is going to be pretty stiff, and pretty light. i just worry about the durability of a carbon tandem. that's a whole lotta money down the drain in a crash. my current race bike is a ti lightspeed. i love it, and i don't worry about scratches or damage in crashes [although i've not gone down on it--yet].
racing on a carbon long bike could be a pretty risky thing. touring and fast riding is one thing, but mixing it up in tight corners and sprints, well, i believe paul sherwin refers to the argie-bargie aspect of it, and i would tend to agree.
have you raced your calfee? how up-tight about it are you?

Carbon bikes aren't that fragile! Sure they can brake but so can a Ti bike. Destroying a Ti bike in a race can be just as expensive as a carbon bike. Have you priced Ti tandems lately? Any performance tandem that they get will be expensive.
Funny, I've broken a Ti frame but never a carbon one and I've been on carbon, almost exclusively, for the last 4 years or so. In fact I t-boned a van (on my single bike then) at 40mph during a race in 06 and the only damage besides me was a broken Zipp wheel, a broken carbon crank arm and a broken shoe. I was able to get back on the bike and finish the race on that bike after I got out of the hospital. I did my first (ultra) race on my Calfee in June, have another race in three weeks and will be doing a bunch of TT's and probably some short road races next year. I used to race/ride a Santana tandem and I don't regret the switch one second.

i've light. i just worry about the durability of a carbon tandem. that's a whole lotta money down the drain in a crash. my current race bike is a ti lightspeed...
racing on a carbon long bike could be a pretty risky thing.

Googling titanium + tandem reveals several makers of titanium tandems. For example, Seven (http://www.sevencycles.com/tandem.php), Santana (http://santanatandems.com/Bikes/TeamTitanium07.html) and Habanero (http://www.habcycles.com/tandem.html) (the first I've heard of this brand).

A Large/Medium Ti Seven weighs 7.77 lbs (http://www.sevencycles.com/sizes.php?page=tandem), a Medium Habanero weighs 7.7 lbs (http://www.habcycles.com/tandem.html)

My Large/Medium Calfee Dragonfly weighed 6.45 lbs unpainted and 7.07 lbs painted. So, somewhere around a pound lighter than Ti. The Ti's listed have lateral tubes, unlike the Calfee, which likely accounts for much of the difference.

That Habanero is inexpensive, only $2395, compared with $7000 for a Dragonfly, and with Ti you can leave off the weight and expense of paint. A Tetra would be a less expensive carbon that likely would be heavier than these Ti's.

So, if you look on the basis of weight, carbon's most alluring feature, the Ti frames aren't that far off, and can be much less expensive. I haven't received my Calfee, yet, so I can't rhapsodize about the ride quality.



In fact, it would be interesting to hear what serial number is on Ritterview's new Calfee or uspspro's Calfee just to get a feel for the production tempo at Calfee.

I'll look when I get mine. Homeyba has a new Dragonfly, what's yours?

...Homeyba has a new Dragonfly, what's yours?

I didn't even know it had a serial number on it? Where do I look...

I can "rhapsodize " about the ride. :) It has an incredible ride! I normally ride high end frames so I'm not easily impressed. I'm impressed! If you buy a Calfee I feel pretty confident that you will be very happy. Not only with the bike but also with the backing and service from the company!

I didn't even know it had a serial number on it? Where do I look...

It's stamped into the titanium on the back side of the right rear drop-out / derailleur hanger.

Ours is TBC0220... which is to say #220.

i just worry about the durability of a carbon tandem. that's a whole lotta money down the drain in a crash.

The most fragile part of a carbon tandem is the paint job; just knocking one over that leaned up against a post or tree can fubar the finish. Beyond that, they're just like any other bike, perhaps even a bit more durable in that they don't dent and it takes a really hard knock to actually do any damage to the composite materials.

However, because it's a composite frame all but the most mangled frames can be fixed. Moreover, if a frame turns out to be a bit too whippy -- such as a frame originally built for a 260lb team that's bought by a 360lb team -- the frame can be reworked to add more material to beef it up. Now, to be fair, there's only one company that's well known for reworking busted carbon frames and that's Calfee. In fact, there's a photo somewhere on the net that shows a shop area where frames are queued up for repair and you'd be amazed as how many Scott, Orbea and other brand name frames were in there for repair.

Finally, Craig Calfee will tell you that when he has gone off into the wilderness he'll take along a small frame repair kit -- I'm guessing it's some sheets of carbon fabric, epoxy components, a swizzle stick and a Dixie cup -- so that he can make any field repairs that might come from a major shunt. If I recall correctly, the way he characterized it was short of any crash that sent the rider to a hospital or worse, he can't think of any crash damage that couldn't be field repaired to get yourself home. Now, while I suspect there's probably only one person riding around with a carbon field repair kit, it does underscore the repairability of a composite frame.

I was curious about the frame weight of the magnesium Paketa. They exhibited a lightweight bike (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/on-show-rocky-mountain-bicycle-show-part-1/84875) at Rocky Mountain Bicycle Show.


http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/2009/08/25/1/rmbs_paketa_tandem_600.jpg

Paketa says its V2 magnesium tandem frame can be built up under 11kg (24lb).

According to Paketa, this frame was painted (actually, powdercoated), size Large, and weighed 5.26 lbs. or 2384 g.

So, my Large/Medium Dragonfly weighs 7.23 lbs, 3280 grams painted.

The Paketa weighs 896 grams, 1.98 lbs less.

I was curious about the frame weight of the magnesium Paketa. They exhibited a lightweight bike (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/on-show-rocky-mountain-bicycle-show-part-1/84875) at Rocky Mountain Bicycle Show.

According to Paketa, this frame was painted (actually, powdercoated), size Large, and weighed 5.26 lbs. or 2384 g.

So, my Large/Medium Dragonfly weighs 7.23 lbs, 3280 grams painted.

The Paketa weighs 896 grams, 1.98 lbs less.

So the Paketa weighs about the same as a Santana Beyond?

http://santanatandem.com/Bikes/Carbon07.html

"Utilizing two breakthrough technologies licensed from VyaTek Sports, Santana’s revolutionary Beyond welded carbon tandem frame weighs in at 5.5 pounds. The Beyond is not only 15–40% lighter than previous tandem frames built from carbon, titanium, or aluminum, it also establishes new standards for stiffness and comfort."

Or, about 1/2 the weight of my Calfee Tetra, 10.57 lbs.

So the Paketa weighs about the same as a Santana Beyond?

Santana’s revolutionary Beyond welded carbon tandem frame weighs in at 5.5 pounds.


Not that I would ever question the veracity of the publishers of the authoritative journal, Tandems & Tandeming, but I'd want to see the size of that frame, the scale certified, and an independent group of auditors monitor the weighing, before I believe a lateral-tubed Beyond weighs 5.5 lbs.

update: i've borrowed the santana "team" that belonged to dr bob breedlove, of paris-brest-paris and RAAM fame [he died during the 2005 RAAM when he was struck by a pick up truck in colorado].

it's awfully nice--much nicer than the cannondale i owned back in the late 80s-early 90s--so my stoker and i are going to ride the hell out of it until we have to return it.

i'll keep you posted. thanks ALL of you for your great input, ideas, and suggestions.

It's stamped into the titanium on the back side of the right rear drop-out / derailleur hanger.

Ours is TBC0220... which is to say #220.


I thought I responded to this but I don't see it here. I wonder where it went? :)

My serial number is 0290, delivered in May 09

My serial number is 0290, delivered in May 09

So, based on that... roughly 4 tandems a month or just under 50 a year for the period Dec '07 - May '09.

I thought I responded to this but I don't see it here. I wonder where it went? :)

My serial number is 0290, delivered in May 09

Mine delivered June 12, 2009, completed June 4 or 5 2009. TBC0307.

July 09 - SN# MSTB0310

Just been taking a look at the pictured Paketa components. Most of it looks nice, except the wheels which I think are a bit marginal for tandem use.

A dream bike would be a Calfee with Lightning cranksets, Edge 68mm clincher wheels and then your choice of high end groupset (Campy / Shimano) and fit components (Thomson / 3T / whatever). I think it would be very nice and will get one when the kids are grown up enough that my wife and I can get out together on it regularly.

Currently use our Trek T2000 aluminium tandem with lots of modifications. It works nicely but obviously an upgrade would be nice.

July 09 - SN# MSTB0310

Make that ~5 a month or ~60 a year.

Hmmm. I'd venture a guess that Calfee has seen steady annual sales growth in the tandem market over the past few years... Nice trend line forming here.

Make that ~5 a month or ~60 a year.

Hmmm. I'd venture a guess that Calfee has seen steady annual sales growth in the tandem market over the past few years... Nice trend line forming here.

Hmmm. July 09 - SN# MSTB0310 - July 08 - SN# MSTB0264 = 46

I think there were a couple of months there where they were having a hard time finding tubes.

Just been taking a look at the pictured Paketa components. Most of it looks nice, except the wheels which I think are a bit marginal for tandem use.

I emailed Paketa to ask them about the components on the Paketa, and Dave replied. 22.84 lbs is pretty light.



Since I built this tandem for myself I never bothered with a spread sheet, but here's the list:

Fork: Alpha Q X2
Head set: Chris King
Capt stem: Syntace 99
Stoker stem: Deda Newton
Bars: Easton EC-90 Equipe
Bar Tape: Cinelli cork
Seat posts: American Classic
Saddles: Capt: San Marco Aspide Ti
Stoker: Terry Zero y Ti
Cranks: FSA Carbon Pro, 32/44/55T
BB's: Am. Classic ISIS
Wheels: Am. Classic 420 w/ Salsa Ti skewers
Tires: Michelin Pro3 Race, Mich. tubes
Brakes: Zero Gravity Ti [:eek:]
Levers, derailleurs: Camp. Record 10-sp triple
Cassette: SRAM Red 11-26 ( w/ Shift-Mate to work w/ Campy)
Drive Chain: Shimano Ultegra 10-s
Timing: Gates Carbon Drive Belt

I weighed the bike on a digital hanging scale at 22.84 lbs. (10.36 kg) w/ everything as listed above; I.e, no pedals or bottle cages but otherwise complete and rideable.

Hope this helps,

Dave

Hmmm. July 09 - SN# MSTB0310 - July 08 - SN# MSTB0264 = 46

I think there were a couple of months there where they were having a hard time finding tubes.

It was probablly the TG-effect that seems to follow any of our heavily discussed tandem purchases... :D

hey, folks!
finally got my new membership confirmation email, so now i can start ASKING questions rather than just looking for the right threads.

in brief:
i have been racing bikes--road, mountain, cyclocross, bmx, and 20 years ago tandems--since 1983, and now want to get back into tandem racing. i had a cannondale that we raced in the late 80s and early 90s, and had such great times and success.

well, a new partner who rides a lot has me excited about getting serious about it again, but i have many questions, and i figure there are likely more opinions here than elsewhere, so feel free to chime in. as an aside, i host a weekly cycling radio show, and this search, acquisition and building process is likely to be part of a multi-episode series, so if you'd like to be included as a contributor, let me know, and we can arrange telephone interviews.

1--frame material. i'm thinking titanium, aluminum, or carbon. we both ride 50 cm singles, and can have, therefore, a small and lightweight frame, which because of its small size will be quite stiff, for better or worse. what do YOU think?
2--frame builder or manufacturer. because a 50/50 is NOT stock, we will need a custom frame. who do YOU recommend? who do you think we should AVOID? tell me of you experiences.
3--brakes. disc or caliper? i haven't checked yet whether discs are legal in usacycling events, so it might be a moot question, but what are your experiences? which BRAND of brakes are best and lightest?
4--wheels. stable and reliable versus lightweight and aero advantage: well, what's out there, and what have YOU folks experienced?
5--stoker handlebars. what's best, regular drops or bull-horn style, or something else?

that should be enough for starters. if you have or are a racing team, let me know. i want to come into this armed with as much opinion as possible.

other data: my racing age is 56, and i'm a cat 1. my stoker is not yet licensed, but has been riding for years, and has competed in many triathlons and running races. she is preparing for the cyclocross season. she is 51. she weighs about, 110 or so, while i weigh about 150. i am 5'7, she is 5'6.

again, thanks so much for ANY suggestions, opinions, or tales of woe or joy from your tandem experiences.

--kim

My opinion is a little different than what you'll probably find in this community.

I've ridden many different brands of tandems. I have have almost a 100cm inseam and can visually deflect the bottom bracket on most frames because of the wattage I can put out (even on silly little 175 cranks).

I've ridden many Santana tandems and I find them to be horribly flexy and inefficient. I've never ridden a Santana titanium tandem, nor have I ridden their carbon isogrid bike. Both their aluminum and steel tandems are completely compromised by a lack of stiffness. Which is hilarious considering the effort they go to in their propaganda to detail how important stiffness in a frame is. I think at the end of the day they probably learned that comfort for the stoker is key. I would never recommend a Santana, and couldn't discourage people from their bikes more strongly (the steel and aluminum that I know about). I think you deal with stoker comfort by spec'ing a road thudbuster or a tamer parallelogram seatpost, not by compromising the frame.

Co-Motion makes a good tandem.

However, nothing comes close to the pure efficiency of a Cannondale tandem. Nothing. Since you're obviously serious about bikes I'd recommend that you borrow some tandems from other cyclists and spend some time in the saddle.

It is my impression in this community that many people feel the need to justify the expense of their purchase (after the fact). Having a flexy inefficient $6000 bike is not a good feeling. That doesn't make sense to me. Its like living in a pretend reality. I've had a stable full of pricy bikes that I didn't like, and I think its important to be honest about what a bike is, and isn't, more so than its important to rationalize or justify the sunk costs of a tandem purchase.

Being a tall cyclist with some considerable power I think I have a different perspective than most. The average five foot nothin' cyclist may not be able to see the differences in frame materials and design so clearly.

I'm a huge fan of Cannondales. Their 3.0 road frame was legendary as you would know. They don't get a lot of credit for having the lightest frame in the world at the time, that also set the benchmark for the stiffest frame ever tested on the Bicycling Magazine 'tarantula' jig. My recommendation to you (if money is an object) is to get an older Cannondale tandem from the '96-'99 era. You'll get an 1 1/8" head tube you can mount a carbon racing tandem fork into, and one of the stiffest most efficient tandems that isn't a custom titanium one. A lot of people love their Co-Motions, DaVinci Designs, Santanas, and even Trek and Burley bikes however in terms of pure efficiency and going fast, nothing compares to a Cannondale. They aren't the lightest tandem frames, but aside from a custom Calfee Tetra Tetra or something custom in titanium, its the fastest tandem you can buy for a team that can hammer. Its amazing how much wattage gets lost on the average 'performance' tandem with a flexy inefficient frame.

By no means should you consider an 'open' design frame. Sure they are lighter bikes, but the loss of efficiency more than accounts for the weight savings. Saving a pound on a 30-35lb race bike just isn't worth the loss of efficiency.

I would say ride as many bikes as you can. The differences will be more than evident and you'll have the knowledge to know what you want and why.

As for disc brakes for racing they unnecessarily add weight to the tandem, unjustifiably so. My tandem team is almost 600lbs, and I take brakes very very seriously. A good lightweight set of Paul Neo-retro brakes gives you more braking power than you could ever possibly need (enough to crush your rims, literally) and is incredibly lightweight compared to bloated V-brake and boat anchor disc setups. Consider running vintage brake levers like Campy Carbon record, using barend shifters, or downtube shifters mounted on Kelly Take-Offs or using Paul thumbies. You'll get better braking feel and performance than using integrated levers, and save weight too.

I like integrated shifting. I just sold my road bike with Ultegra 9 speed STI. It works. However, at the end of the day the brake levers just weren't as solid as dedicated brake levers, and integrated controls are heavier to boot. Something to think about.

The most important thing is to try different setups and different bikes.

There are a lot of people around here that are emotionally invested in advocating a bike they own (or want), or a particular setup, that have NEVER ridden anything else. Due to the expensive cost of tandems there just aren't a lot of 'em out there. Most people buy a tandem without spending so much as a hundred miles on different frame materials, and different makes. In my book that's insane.

I've got two Cannondale tandems. I couldn't recommend them more highly. Then again I love vintage Cannondales. I could ruin almost any lugged steel racing bike out there. Frame stiffness is a huge issue for me.

I've never had the privilege of riding a custom titanium Serrota that would have tubing appropriate for my 70 something cm frame size, nor have I ever ridden a Calfee Tetra Tetra, but I trust they could make one for me that would be stiff enough. I don't live in that tax bracket. However, from where I stand nothing comes close to a Cannondale, nothing.

If you can afford something exotic that is lighter, I'd be interested to see what you think comparing a Cannondale you pick up for $1450 off craigslist that you build up with race components and a race wheelset to anything you could buy custom (carbon, Ti, whatever). I'd wager the Cannondale more than holds its own.

You pedal a Cannondale and it goes forward. The tandems and vintage frames are veritable rocket bikes. You can't ride a Cannondale tandem and then ride almost anything else under six grand without the frame flex dominating the ride experience.

I'd be careful of newer Cannondale tandems. Cannondale road bikes 'optimized' their aluminum road bikes successively. Cannondale stopped making a 66cm road frame after CAAD5 because the lightened reworked design just couldn't support a frame size that big. I'm not sure if they did this with the tandem tubes on later bikes, but I would assume so. Someone here might know.

I just purchased a 27" (68.5cm) Cannondale touring frame from 1986. There are lighter bikes (pretty much anything) but I'm not going to deflect that bottom bracket (plus it more or less fits and I can't afford a Zinn Project Big). That's how I feel about Cannondale tandems.

Total disclosure almost every bike I own is a Cannondale: 3.0 Road frame, M2000 Mountain Bike, Two Cannondale Tandems, 27" Touring bike. I've mostly sold off everything else. I'm always looking for other bikes to buy, but nothing works for me like vintage Cannondales. They are just the ultimate bike for sheer stiffness, unrivaled strength, and lightness. You'll find lighter frames, but nothing as strong or as stiff.

I'm 375lbs, have a 100cm inseam (I'm 6'7") and obviously I'm a complete outlier, but that's my opinion. However, you should know that I formulated that opinion when I was a competitive basketball player and could barely keep weight around 215. Back in the day I really tried to buy a Bontrager steel mountain bike (Race or Race light). That's when my education on frames and flex began.

If I could afford custom Titanium or carbon I would have never sought out the C'dales...

I'd love to have a Zinn, Serotta, or Calfee (anything), but the 'dales work and aside from probably anything else on the market but those customs mentioned, outperform available alternatives (at any price).

Being a tall cyclist with some considerable power I think I have a different perspective than most....My tandem team is almost 600lbs...I'm 375lbs...6'7"

Well, a team that weighs twice an average team certainly brings an interesting perspective. Your emphasis on frame stiffness is sound.

Just a quick update, Rue is back in business with a few new things to be released. Some personal stuff and she is back to building bikes. I wouldn't rule them out for a carbon bike. Their sub-forum at Fairwheel was reopened and they now regularly post on Facebook, among other places.

Their website still needs work.

As stated by bikerkim, I don't think frame stiffness is going to be a big issue in this situation.

I can tip the scales at 385 lbs. Well if I include the stoker, our bike, pedals, cages, computers, bag, etc.. Oh, I forgot we would have to include the doberman as well (he has to stay home because he doesn't have a seat, or thumbs).

Even as a light weight team, I can speak about the stiffness of a carbon frame. We put our tandems on the trainer in the winter. With a lateral frame aluminium Trek (which I feel is very stiff) I can see a visible deflection of the bottom bracket in that situation. However, with our daVinci (Calfee) I see virtually no deflection on a frame that does not have a lateral tube.

Another piece of Calfee production...

We received our carbon daVinci in early May this year. (Yes, TG-effect played a part, but we did not conform on the drive train.)

Serial number MSTBV0291, so it appears frames built for daVinci are included in the same numbering sequence.

She is back to building bikes.

So, Brent built your bike, but any new bikes will be made by Breanna?

hey, folks!
finally got my new membership confirmation email, so now i can start ASKING questions rather than just looking for the right threads.

in brief:
i have been racing bikes--road, mountain, cyclocross, bmx, and 20 years ago tandems--since 1983, and now want to get back into tandem racing. i had a cannondale that we raced in the late 80s and early 90s, and had such great times and success.

well, a new partner who rides a lot has me excited about getting serious about it again, but i have many questions, and i figure there are likely more opinions here than elsewhere, so feel free to chime in. as an aside, i host a weekly cycling radio show, and this search, acquisition and building process is likely to be part of a multi-episode series, so if you'd like to be included as a contributor, let me know, and we can arrange telephone interviews.

1--frame material. i'm thinking titanium, aluminum, or carbon. we both ride 50 cm singles, and can have, therefore, a small and lightweight frame, which because of its small size will be quite stiff, for better or worse. what do YOU think?
2--frame builder or manufacturer. because a 50/50 is NOT stock, we will need a custom frame. who do YOU recommend? who do you think we should AVOID? tell me of you experiences.
3--brakes. disc or caliper? i haven't checked yet whether discs are legal in usacycling events, so it might be a moot question, but what are your experiences? which BRAND of brakes are best and lightest?
4--wheels. stable and reliable versus lightweight and aero advantage: well, what's out there, and what have YOU folks experienced?
5--stoker handlebars. what's best, regular drops or bull-horn style, or something else?

that should be enough for starters. if you have or are a racing team, let me know. i want to come into this armed with as much opinion as possible.

other data: my racing age is 56, and i'm a cat 1. my stoker is not yet licensed, but has been riding for years, and has competed in many triathlons and running races. she is preparing for the cyclocross season. she is 51. she weighs about, 110 or so, while i weigh about 150. i am 5'7, she is 5'6.

again, thanks so much for ANY suggestions, opinions, or tales of woe or joy from your tandem experiences.

--kim

please email me. i have what your looking for.
i would like to send pictures and show exactly what i have for sale.
i have 2 carbon tandems for sale. 1 is calfee and the other is a custom frame which has no top tube (may be good for your conditions). both riders on this bike were 5' 5'' to 5' 9''. the setup easily accommodates these heights. contact me and i will send a detail message of ALL the components.
the bikes weigh a little over 30lbs and have been setup to be ridden under 30 as well.
contact me at dom.kouki@gmail.com

[QUOTE=TandemGeek;9688117 In fact, it would be interesting to hear what serial number is on Ritterview's new Calfee or uspspro's Calfee just to get a feel for the production tempo at Calfee.
[/QUOTE]

Mine will be #337 to be delivered in December.

So, Brent built your bike, but any new bikes will be made by Breanna?

Brent is now Breanna, so yes to your question.